The Comic Book Thread (spoilers)

[RoyWill Rumble]

Well fuck, my local Chapters is messed... they have a lot of portions but not a lot of completes... I guess I'll just return it and buy Planet Hulk.

Planet Hulk is worth all 4 volumes of Age of Apocalypse (and Age of Apocalypse ain't bad). It is the only story that got me to full on mark out for the Hulk.

So what does Marvel do? They let Greg Pak have Jercules and relaunch Hulk with some shit-ball Red Hulk and Jeph Loeb writing some of the worst fanboy drek ever. And what happens? The Incredible Hercules ends up being a thoroughly enjoyable book. I don't think Pak gets enough credit and got slagged too harshly for the World War Hulk anticlimax. That felt like booking that was pushed upon him rather than a plotline he proposed.[/rant]

I delibrately avoided World War Hulk because to be honest, I absolutely fucking despise The Hulk. However, from what I've read of Hercules it's been fun. I MAY check out World War Hulk, but probably not.

And fuck off that New Brunswick wouldn't have a comic book store.

[apsham]

.

[RoyWill Rumble]

I dunno how I forgot this earlier, but if you can stand the art style, Earth X is worth a read. Unfortunately I couldn't, but the premise alone is worth giving it a try.

[JairusCain]

Upon checking out some pics from Earth X...

How can you NOT enjoy that art style? Hmm, to each his own I suppose.

Edited August 9, 2008 by JairusCain

[Benji]

Mentioning Age of Apocalypse, that story was awesome, but dagnabit is some of the art ugly. Some of the art is dead on perfect, but other parts are just sinfully horrid to me.

[JairusCain]

Bad art is generally what's keeping me from ordering Batman: Year One... although I'm still looking at The Long Halloween and Dark Victory... but I almost feel bad reading those two without reading the predecessor. But CHRIST the art in Year One is atrocious from what I've seen.

Edited August 9, 2008 by JairusCain

[Benji]

Bad are is generally what's keeping me from ordering Batman: Year One... although I'm still looking at The Long Halloween and Dark Victory... but I almost feel bad reading those two without reading the predecessor. But CHRIST the art in Year One is atrocious from what I've seen.

I love the art in year one, just like TDK it really suits the tone, bad art is bad art, but to me that's perfect for what it's trying to represent.

[JairusCain]

Bad are is generally what's keeping me from ordering Batman: Year One... although I'm still looking at The Long Halloween and Dark Victory... but I almost feel bad reading those two without reading the predecessor. But CHRIST the art in Year One is atrocious from what I've seen.

I love the art in year one, just like TDK it really suits the tone, bad art is bad art, but to me that's perfect for what it's trying to represent.

Well from what I've seen of it, it's really old looking, like 50's and 60's comic book style art. Sure, it sets the tone because it's supposed to be way back when... but when I've just finished reading The Killing Joke, and am immensely intrigued by Brian Bolland and Todd MacFarlane's art styles...

Spoiler: Click here to view

and

and this...

seriously? 1960's cartoon looking... ugh...

... That just doesn't cut it for me. i don't know... maybe I'm weird. I'm thinking I MIGHT pick it up just so that I can read the trilogy of sorts together and in order... but ugh... I don't know.

Edited August 9, 2008 by JairusCain

[TGC]

the art is by David Mazzachelli, who did the art for Daredevil: Born Again. I love his style. I loved his teaming with Frank Miller on those two books. To each their own, but it really sets the tone of a story about Batman's first year and his "war" with the mobs and the corrupt Gotham PD. It is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!

[Benji]

the art is by David Mazzachelli, who did the art for Daredevil: Born Again. I love his style. I loved his teaming with Frank Miller on those two books. To each their own, but it really sets the tone of a story about Batman's first year and his "war" with the mobs and the corrupt Gotham PD. It is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!

QFE, if you're a reader who likes reading tense, character driven writing, Year One is for you.

[TGC]

I'm a fan of Miller's earlier work (ala Daredevil both times, Batman Year One, and The Dark Knight), and aside from some ugliness when he is inked by Klaus Janson (a poor man's Frank Miller clone) I've always thought that Miller is the best artist for Miller. Then Mazzachelli came along, and I thought he was the best artist for anything. Lark is very similar in style to Mazzachelli as well, and he was the primary artist on Gotham Central.

Okay the rambling is over.

I rebought Avengers Disassembled in Hardcover this past week, since I got rid of the issues, and I must say looking back it works a little better than I thought it did the first time I read it. It still felt rushed and as if he was just trying to end the past so he could move forward with his brand new spanking baby New Avengers, and it's not the best Finch art ever, but it's a lot less bad than I recalled.

I also ordered the last four issues of captain America's last series, Captain America Disassembled by Kirkman, as I'd never read it before, and man that was fucking fun. That was the best Cap story I've read pre Brubaker since Mark Waid was on the book in 1999.

Which leads me to asking aloud why the fuck Marvel doesn't trade Mark Gruenwald's epic 1980's and 90's Cap run. It ws over a hundred issues long, and while some stuff was utter shit, like CapWolf, Teen Cap, and the last year when the super Soldier Serum was killing him, some of it was brilliant, like The Moonstone Saga, Diamondback, the intro of Crossbones, and Cap killing a terrorist with a gun, but it was a great overall epic run. A Marvel Visionaires Mark Gruenwald Captain America series of trades like they did for Byrne's FF, Simonson's Thor, and are doing for Peter David's Hulk would fucking sell.

Oh and I also finally got Avengers Under Seige in trade. My favorite Avengers story EVER, and gthe greatest use of The Masters Of evil ever too.

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

It's kind of scary how similar TGC and my Avengers tastes are.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Mr. Potato Head

[TGC]

The Avengers are my favorite Marvel book of all time, with Captain America a close second. I might really love other runs on other books (Miller Daredevil, Byrne FF, David Hulk, Michelinie Iron Man and Spider-Man, Stern Spider-Man, Bendis Daredevil, and Busiek Thunderbolts for instance) but when it comes to Cap and The Avengers I love even the bad shit. I take that back. Heroes Reborn Cap and Avengers was the worst shit ever, and as far as I am concerned never happened. God damn Leifeld fucked those up HARD. But yeah, basically from the Stern/Byrne run on Cap until Heroes Reborn, and from Heroes Return until they fucked Cap upand made him more "realistic", I love it all good or bad. I dropped Cap and never got Cap Disassembled until now, and wow and damn did I miss out there. Seriously if you haven't read it do so. Awesome fun stuff that harkened back to the 80's and before.

Ditto The Avengers, except aside from Reborn I love it all, good or bad. It's just a great little corner of the universe. Hell I read the abysmal Crossing story that had Iron Man turn heel and get killed and introduced Teen Tony. I did drop New Avengers, but that was because of the classic Avengers fan in me that hated Bendis for fucking the book up. Now I've had some time away and I will get caught up in trades as it's not as bad as I thought it was.

Basically, AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!

Oh, and no other Avengers run or story beats Stern's classic 80's run, where he fucking peaked with Under Seige. That was so fucking great from start to finish.

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

Agreed with you on the Avengers, although I'd argue that Busiek's run comes close (maybe because it's pretty much the only one I actually followed monthly as it went on.) Nothing tops the Under Siege saga though, except *maybe* the fact that the team had to be ridiculously low on power for it to ever happen, and the cavalry (Scott Lang? Doctor Druid???) weren't exactly A-listers themselves. Don't know if you have the same TPB that I do, but mine has an interview with Roger Stern where he says that "the Masters had always been more or less equal to the Avengers...that's when it hit me, they're the bad guys, why should they stop at being equal?" Such a simple concept, but one that had never been done before.

[TGC]

Agreed with you on the Avengers, although I'd argue that Busiek's run comes close (maybe because it's pretty much the only one I actually followed monthly as it went on.) Nothing tops the Under Siege saga though, except *maybe* the fact that the team had to be ridiculously low on power for it to ever happen, and the cavalry (Scott Lang? Doctor Druid???) weren't exactly A-listers themselves. Don't know if you have the same TPB that I do, but mine has an interview with Roger Stern where he says that "the Masters had always been more or less equal to the Avengers...that's when it hit me, they're the bad guys, why should they stop at being equal?" Such a simple concept, but one that had never been done before.

I do. And I agree.

Also, I LOVED Busiek's run on the main book, and I adored Avengers Forever as well. Both are right up there, but for some reason Stern's run wins my heart. Sadly, I agree that his choice for the cavalry was weak, as was his follow up issues after the MOE story was over. In fact the book wasn't really all that great again until Bob Harras took over full time a few years later and started the Proctor story with the B Listers.

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

The Mansion Siege was at the time (and maybe still) the all-time highest point of the book. Then Stern left abruptly, Walt Simonson came in, Doctor Druid became team leader and we had the crappy Ravonna/Nebula stuff going on. After that team disbanded, we were given possibly the all-time worst Avengers lineup ever - Cap (but not as Cap), Thor, Mr. Fantastic, the Invisible Woman, and Gilgamesh. Luckily John Byrne took over the book after only a few issues of that mess, and despite, well, being John Byrne, he did cause a slight improvement. There were still some downright weird new members (Sandman, Rage, and worst of all Spider-Man), but the Thane Ector stuff was probably the best the book had been since the Siege.

Then Bob Harras took over and kicked things up a notch. When I was still reading the Avengers Message Board and Avengers Assemble and that stuff, nobody seemed to like the Proctor stuff much - but I think that's because they had to go through it once a month, and it went on a long time. I mean, the Triune Understanding storyline during Busiek's run lasted nearly four years from start to finish, but it was in the background a lot of the time. Proctor and the Gatherers were basically the main story for almost three years, I think I'd have gotten tired of it then too.

Then came the atrocities of the Crossing, and Heroes Reborn (which I've never actually read), followed by the glory of the Busiek era, Geoff Johns doing the best he could filling those shoes...and nothing since has really been the Avengers.

A brief history of the Avengers' last twenty years, brought to you by MPH.

[TGC]

The Mansion Siege was at the time (and maybe still) the all-time highest point of the book. Then Stern left abruptly, Walt Simonson came in, Doctor Druid became team leader and we had the crappy Ravonna/Nebula stuff going on. After that team disbanded, we were given possibly the all-time worst Avengers lineup ever - Cap (but not as Cap), Thor, Mr. Fantastic, the Invisible Woman, and Gilgamesh. Luckily John Byrne took over the book after only a few issues of that mess, and despite, well, being John Byrne, he did cause a slight improvement. There were still some downright weird new members (Sandman, Rage, and worst of all Spider-Man), but the Thane Ector stuff was probably the best the book had been since the Siege.

I don't know what the fuck Simonson was thinking unless it was editorially mandated. It was a really shitty roster, made worse by the fact that Reed and Sue had JUST retired in The FF to spend more time with their family. It was horrible. I don't know if Walt left before he had a chance to make it good, or if he was fired or what, but it was ill concieved in my opinion. He did work back to his Ravonna idea with Kang and such in the FF, but I never could find all of that run and never learned where it went. It sold like hotcakes when he introduced his new FF of Spidey, Wolverine, Ghost Rider and...I forget.

As for Byrne, I much preferred his great run on Avengers West Coast myself. His Avengers proper run was weak, but on AWC he was doing amazing stuff with Wanda, The Vision, Wonder Man, Hawkeye, and Mockingbird. That was must read stuff that was amazing. Sadly Roy Thomas took over when Byrne left Marvel (again) and it really sucked.

Then Bob Harras took over and kicked things up a notch. When I was still reading the Avengers Message Board and Avengers Assemble and that stuff, nobody seemed to like the Proctor stuff much - but I think that's because they had to go through it once a month, and it went on a long time. I mean, the Triune Understanding storyline during Busiek's run lasted nearly four years from start to finish, but it was in the background a lot of the time. Proctor and the Gatherers were basically the main story for almost three years, I think I'd have gotten tired of it then too.

They did mix in The X-Men cross over and a few other things, but yeah it was the main focus of the book for three years or four. Sadly it ended pretty weakly, and sending Black Knight and Sersi to The Ultraverse was such a bad move that ultimately went nowhere. But all in all, I enjoyed his run a lot. Hell, he made Herc, Black Knight, Sersi, and Widow ultra cool, and I even enjoyed the quadrangle with Knight, Sersi, Crystal, and Quicksilver. Just a fun time.

Then came the atrocities of the Crossing, and Heroes Reborn (which I've never actually read), followed by the glory of the Busiek era, Geoff Johns doing the best he could filling those shoes...and nothing since has really been the Avengers.

A brief history of the Avengers' last twenty years, brought to you by MPH.

I don't know what MArvel was thinking with all that Crossing shit. Well, I know they were hoping to get the GL success by turning Tony Heel, but man did it suck. Wasp was fucked up, just ll of it was shitty.

Busiek took the relaunch and made it fucking work. He and Perez rocked. I think Wanda using he fucking powers to bring Wonder Man BACK FROM THE FUCKING DEAD might have been my favorite scene from his whole run, as it was just awesome.

Sadly, as has been said a lot, Geoff Johns run was hurt by the mandates of the time that every story be padded for the trade. He told a story of how one issue of his first arc had "too much going on" and was told to split them into two issues. The result were two weak ass issues. Add in his odd as fuck Giant Man and Wasp love issue where Whirlwind is beating up hookers, the ill concieved Search for She-Hulk, and the fact that he left before he wrapped up his New Zodiac thing, and it was not the best run it could have been. Although I loved how he turned Scott Lange Ant Man and Jack of Hearts into two of the most interesting characters in the book. Sadly Bendis fucked that up in his first issue like 5 pages in.

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

As for Byrne, I much preferred his great run on Avengers West Coast myself. His Avengers proper run was weak, but on AWC he was doing amazing stuff with Wanda, The Vision, Wonder Man, Hawkeye, and Mockingbird. That was must read stuff that was amazing. Sadly Roy Thomas took over when Byrne left Marvel (again) and it really sucked.

I have a soft-spot for AWC because it (especially in the Thomas era) seemed a little more 'kid-friendly' than the main book...but Byrne's run was probably the low point of the series for me. The Vision has amnesia! Wanda's kids only exist when she's thinking about them! Jim Hammond's here for some reason! Tigra's turning into a real cat! Seriously, there was *some* good characterization of those characters (especially Mockingbird) in that book, but very little of it was with Byrne at the helm. I preferred the later team with Spider-Woman and the Living Lightning over Byrne's run.

They did mix in The X-Men cross over and a few other things, but yeah it was the main focus of the book for three years or four. Sadly it ended pretty weakly, and sending Black Knight and Sersi to The Ultraverse was such a bad move that ultimately went nowhere. But all in all, I enjoyed his run a lot. Hell, he made Herc, Black Knight, Sersi, and Widow ultra cool, and I even enjoyed the quadrangle with Knight, Sersi, Crystal, and Quicksilver. Just a fun time.

Agreed on the Ultraverse, and I'd include that to include the dying Watcher's putting everything "as it was". It's like Harras didn't want anybody to follow up on any of his plots, so he made sure they wouldn't be able to no matter what. And instead we got the Wasp in a cocoon, time-travelling Luna Maximoff, and a dead Yellowjacket. Just weird.

Busiek took the relaunch and made it fucking work. He and Perez rocked. I think Wanda using he fucking powers to bring Wonder Man BACK FROM THE FUCKING DEAD might have been my favorite scene from his whole run, as it was just awesome.

Second to #11, Wanda daring zombie Wonder Man to kill her. And the Vision as a floating hologram for nearly a whole year was great too.

[TGC]

As for Byrne, I much preferred his great run on Avengers West Coast myself. His Avengers proper run was weak, but on AWC he was doing amazing stuff with Wanda, The Vision, Wonder Man, Hawkeye, and Mockingbird. That was must read stuff that was amazing. Sadly Roy Thomas took over when Byrne left Marvel (again) and it really sucked.

I have a soft-spot for AWC because it (especially in the Thomas era) seemed a little more 'kid-friendly' than the main book...but Byrne's run was probably the low point of the series for me. The Vision has amnesia! Wanda's kids only exist when she's thinking about them! Jim Hammond's here for some reason! Tigra's turning into a real cat! Seriously, there was *some* good characterization of those characters (especially Mockingbird) in that book, but very little of it was with Byrne at the helm. I preferred the later team with Spider-Woman and the Living Lightning over Byrne's run.

They did mix in The X-Men cross over and a few other things, but yeah it was the main focus of the book for three years or four. Sadly it ended pretty weakly, and sending Black Knight and Sersi to The Ultraverse was such a bad move that ultimately went nowhere. But all in all, I enjoyed his run a lot. Hell, he made Herc, Black Knight, Sersi, and Widow ultra cool, and I even enjoyed the quadrangle with Knight, Sersi, Crystal, and Quicksilver. Just a fun time.

Agreed on the Ultraverse, and I'd include that to include the dying Watcher's putting everything "as it was". It's like Harras didn't want anybody to follow up on any of his plots, so he made sure they wouldn't be able to no matter what. And instead we got the Wasp in a cocoon, time-travelling Luna Maximoff, and a dead Yellowjacket. Just weird.

Busiek took the relaunch and made it fucking work. He and Perez rocked. I think Wanda using he fucking powers to bring Wonder Man BACK FROM THE FUCKING DEAD might have been my favorite scene from his whole run, as it was just awesome.

Second to #11, Wanda daring zombie Wonder Man to kill her. And the Vision as a floating hologram for nearly a whole year was great too.

Byrne created The GLA. That makes everything better. But yeah I forgot about the stupid Tigra subplot. Vision was good stuff though. And I had no problem with the kids, although I think there was a much better resolution to that than what he created.

Speaking of Vision, I might be alone but man I always had issues with that character. Always.

[Jimmy]

Probably I well known question, but why is Vision in DC's Justice League and Marvel's Avengers? I'd appreciate if anyone could clear that up for me.