2008/2009 NBA Thread v2.0

[maninblack]

It's really not that ridiculous dude. First off, you don't have to win the most championships to be the best player ever. If so, Bill Russell would own this argument. So let's stop saying # of championships determines how good you are.

Wait, wha? Russell has more championship rings than fingers and that's not good enough to be best player ever?

[naiwf]

LeBron is no Jordan. He doesn't have the killer instinct that Jordan did. Its pretty obvious you didn't see Jordan play. I remember dude ripping hearts out.

JUST LIKE KOBE DID TONIGHT! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Someone who has won ZERO championships cannot be the best player ever in a sport where one man can lead a team to a title, or be the main reason his team became a dynasty. D-Wade did it pretty much singlehandely in 2006 with the corpse of Shaq and not much else at his side. Bill Russell is definitely in the mix for the GOAT although his limited offensive numbers sway some people in the wrong direction. Other contenders are Kareem, Wilt, MJ and The Big O.

Also to piggyback on what DMN said, there are a SLEW of Hall of Famers who likely would have won rings if MJ didn't exist (Barkley, Ewing, Malone, 'Nique, Stockton) and guys like Olajuwon & Drexler only got theirs because MJ retired for 2 1/2 years. From LeBron's draft class Wade already has one when he was "the guy". The Boston three headed monster got theirs last year. TIMMAY and the Spurs bitch slapped LeBron in the Finals two years ago. And if the Cavs lose here then either Kobe gets his 4th or Howard gets his 1st. That's not exactly Jordaneqsue if a bunch of different teams are capable of winning titles from year to year.

Let's not forget that Darko Milicic has a ring too

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

Naiwf, I'm not heralding LeBron as the best player ever. I have never once said that. Jordan still holds that title and will for quite some time.

I have said he will end up going down as the best player ever when it's all set and done because I am confident he will win enough championships to be considered that.

And yes, I saw Jordan play. Please don't throw away my argument by saying something as condescending - something along the lines of "I don't agree with you so you simply didn't see Jordan play."

And anyone could have ripped out the damn Nuggets heart last night considering their shit performance. Man I was disappointed in how Denver came out. Billups was a no show and the Lakers shockingly just beat the Nuggets up on the glass.

Plus, even as a Duke fan, I don't understand how Dahntay Jones is an NBA starter. The guy is awful, never liked him at Duke nor did I think he had the skill to be an NBA starter. He's just an athlete.

Edited May 30, 2009 by KeepinThatFunkAliveV4

[naiwf]

I hope Orlando wins the title so Howard gets his ring before LeBronze.

[Blaze09]

Hey...LeBron got his gold during the summer

[AJ]

As I said in the like thread, well worth staying up til after 4am to see Orlando make it to the finals.

They made it look pretty easy too. The Cavs had no fight in them whatsoever. LeBron was almost non-existent.

[maninblack]

Bill Russell is definitely in the mix for the GOAT although his limited offensive numbers sway some people in the wrong direction.

Wasn't Russell part of an era where certain stats weren't even counted, though?

I'm not heralding LeBron as the best player ever. I have never once said that. Jordan still holds that title and will for quite some time.

I have said he will end up going down as the best player ever when it's all set and done because I am confident he will win enough championships to be considered that.

But that's the thing though. James has to get over the hump at this point. Sure, he is this season's MVP, but there are MVPs who have never won a title. All those other accolades like scoring titles, rebounding titles, how many triple-doubles in a season, etc., they're great for padding the player's body of work, but someone as hyped up as James who can't win a championship is treated as unfulfilled potential.

I'm not saying he won't ever win one. Just not this season.

[gunnar hendershow]

LeBron is no Jordan. He doesn't have the killer instinct that Jordan did. Its pretty obvious you didn't see Jordan play. I remember dude ripping hearts out.

JUST LIKE KOBE DID TONIGHT! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Someone who has won ZERO championships cannot be the best player ever in a sport where one man can lead a team to a title, or be the main reason his team became a dynasty. D-Wade did it pretty much singlehandely in 2006 with the corpse of Shaq and not much else at his side. Bill Russell is definitely in the mix for the GOAT although his limited offensive numbers sway some people in the wrong direction. Other contenders are Kareem, Wilt, MJ and The Big O.

Also to piggyback on what DMN said, there are a SLEW of Hall of Famers who likely would have won rings if MJ didn't exist (Barkley, Ewing, Malone, 'Nique, Stockton) and guys like Olajuwon & Drexler only got theirs because MJ retired for 2 1/2 years. From LeBron's draft class Wade already has one when he was "the guy". The Boston three headed monster got theirs last year. TIMMAY and the Spurs bitch slapped LeBron in the Finals two years ago. And if the Cavs lose here then either Kobe gets his 4th or Howard gets his 1st. That's not exactly Jordaneqsue if a bunch of different teams are capable of winning titles from year to year.

Let's not forget that Darko Milicic has a ring too

But, once again, Jordan's titles didn't come until he had a surrounding cast of Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, and B.J. Armstrong... and then for the second-threepeat Kerr and Rodman. Mo Williams is in the Horace Grant category. But besides that he doesn't even have a B.J. Armstrong on that team. It took a lot of pieces to be in place for Jordan's Bulls to get past the Detroit Pistons let alone win the NBA Finals. Jordan brought about 3 more points a game to his championship teams, but less in rebounds and assists than LeBron did this year. Hell, MJ's best seasons came when he wasn't winning titles.

These are more just things to consider more than anything. LeBron won't go down as the greatest of all time, that title will belong to MJ probably forever. But he's had much less to work with than Jordan did when he won the title. We should really be commending LeBron for getting a lackluster team to 66-16 and the Conference Finals than criticizing him for doing something not even MJ did.

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

Well obviously not. They just lost. Lol.

Obviously James would be unfulfilled potential if he never wins a championship, or to be honest, a few of them.

But let's put things in perspective..the guy is 24...Jordan didn't win a ring until he was 28 and didn't reach the conference finals until he was 26. LeBron has already made it to the finals. So let's slow down on this unfulfilled potential talk.

Was LeBron expected to guide the Cavs to the finals this season? Yes. Did he? No. Does the fact that he hasn't won a ring at the age of 24 make him a failure? No.

[naiwf]

But, once again, Jordan's titles didn't come until he had a surrounding cast of Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, and B.J. Armstrong... and then for the second-threepeat Kerr and Rodman. Mo Williams is in the Horace Grant category. But besides that he doesn't even have a B.J. Armstrong on that team. It took a lot of pieces to be in place for Jordan's Bulls to get past the Detroit Pistons let alone win the NBA Finals. Jordan brought about 3 more points a game to his championship teams, but less in rebounds and assists than LeBron did this year. Hell, MJ's best seasons came when he wasn't winning titles.

These are more just things to consider more than anything. LeBron won't go down as the greatest of all time, that title will belong to MJ probably forever. But he's had much less to work with than Jordan did when he won the title. We should really be commending LeBron for getting a lackluster team to 66-16 and the Conference Finals than criticizing him for doing something not even MJ did.

No. We should be commending Howard for getting a lackluster team to 59-23 and the NBA Finals while utterly sodomizing Cleveland's bigs in this series. 66 win teams should win championships. Only 3 out of 15* 65+ win teams haven't won it all, (The '72-'73 Celtics lost in the ECF to my Knicks, the lolMavs that lost to the Warriors in the 1st round two years ago & these Cavs).

* If Orlando wins the title then you can add this season's Lakers to the mix as well.

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

You honestly think Orlando is a lackluster team? That's pretty ludicrous man.

And since when did basketball turn into a one man sport? Yes one man can take over and lead his team to many things, but it's still a team sport. The same thing can happen in every other sport as well, but ultimately an entire team earns a team accomplishment.

Don't get me wrong, Howard is great and is a freak of nature, but Orlando's roster complements him perfectly. The combination of the barrage of three point shooters and Howard inside allows Orlando to spread you out - you have to pick your poison between leaving Howard guarded by one guy or leaving shooters uncovered on the outside.

Predictions on the finals anyone?

I say Lakers in six but I can see this going seven. Dwight Howard vs the LA front line should be an interesting matchup. Gasol will get owned if he guards Howard one on one, and if they have Gasol and Bynum in at the same time (assuming Bynum on Howard), I don't know who the hell Gasol could guard...definitely not Rashard Lewis. I'm guessing we're going to see a lot more Gasol/Odom in this series.

From what we've seen of Pietrus on LeBron, he should be able to do as good if not a better of a job on Kobe as he won't be so outmatched size-wise like he was against LeBron.

I think Orlando's wings should be accounted for just fine with Bryant and Ariza, unlike Cleveland who didn't have anybody but LeBron that could guard players like Turkoglu, Lewis, and sometimes even Lee.

Maybe the difference will be point guard play - Skip 2 My Lou vs D Fish.

Edited May 31, 2009 by KeepinThatFunkAliveV4

[gunnar hendershow]

You honestly think Orlando is a lackluster team? That's pretty ludicrous man.

You take Howard away and put someone else in Center and that team still makes the postseason. You take LeBron away and you're looking at a team picking in the top 5 of the draft.

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

You honestly think Orlando is a lackluster team? That's pretty ludicrous man.

You take Howard away and put someone else in Center and that team still makes the postseason. You take LeBron away and you're looking at a team picking in the top 5 of the draft.

Completely agreed.

[livid]

I've always thought that was a BS statement because it all depends on who you would put in that guy's place. And as weak as the conference is, I doubt that the team would be in the top 5, they'd be pushing for a bottom playoff spot though, as they have enough of shooters that would make at least the regular season pretty interesting.

And lol Prince James. Hopefully this will bring some of the hype and marketing around the guy down a notch or two as it's been pretty overwhelming the last couple of weeks when he hadn't and still hasn't accomplished anything. MVP is nice, Steve Nash has 3 of those but no championship and that's what great athletes pride themselves on, or at least should.

I have a feeling that LeBron might end up being the Peyton Manning in the NBA; great stats but no ring and eventually getting the ring, years later than he probably should've.

Bottom line is that the great players make the other players better on a team, not the other way around and LeBron seemingly lacks that. And until he gains that, he won't get close to Jordan.

And I think the Finals will depend on how well the Lakers are able to defend Howard.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Livid Soprano

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

How doesn't LeBron make his teammates better...?

[Hajjhowe]

LeBron carried his team to 66 wins, and the conference finals. Their big's are clearly not athletic enough to match Howard (Not that any are really) and LeBron can't cover 4 guys on the perimeter by himself. It's called math. Orlando had a perfect system to exploit the Cavs slow front court and Cleveland's defense took a nosedive. LeBron gave his guys open and easy shots, and they missed. What more do you want him to do? Pick his players up on his shoulders so they can just put it in the net?

Also, comparing the guys surrounding him to the Bulls teams is a little ridiculous. The only other 'star' guy is Mo Williams & maybe Delonte West. If he sticks around and than they can get someone like Bosh or whatever in the Super Free Agency Period, and STILL lose. Than you can say he sucks.

LeBron tries to do whatever he has to do to win. He was getting almost a triple double WITH like 35+ points every night. Also, the whole MJ argument is moot. Unless Jordan could cover Dwight Howard by himself, there was little he could do to stop the Magic than score about 60 Points a game. Get off your Anti-LeBron fucking bandwagon's, stop pretending the Magic are full of scrubs and accept the fact they were underrated heading into this series and it's not some amazing shock they won.

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

Well said, even though calling Mo Williams a star is a bit of a stretch - definitely Delonte West although you did say maybe. Obviously Mo Williams won a spot on the all star team this year, but he was probably the most controversial selection. On the matter of LeBron making his teammates better, just check out Mo's career 3 point percentages by season...it's no coincidence there was a spike this season - I'm willing to bet at least 50% of his threes, if not more, were off LeBron dishes, or plays where the D broke down on rotations because of doubles on LeBron

[Hajjhowe]

Well I put 'star' in brackets. Scottie Pippen might not have been as great without MJ, but he was better than Mo is. Anyways, should be an interesting match-up in the finals. I am eager to see how the Lakers defend against the in & out game. They seem athletic enough to do it.

[Troy Maskell]

Believe in Magic Bitches!

[Maxx]

Holy shit people, really?

Its a 5 Vs 5 game, he's one fucking guy. Yeah he's gets hyped up ridiculously, but that's what the media does with talented players. As many have said, Jordan didn't win his titles without a great supporting cast, neither did Kobe, neither did Bird or Magic. Kobe wouldn't be leading this Cavs team to the finals either, nor would anyone else I mentioned.

You're all making it sound like the Lebron should be able to win even if no one else on his team scores a single point. He's one guy, the Cavs don't have the bench to get it done. LeBron jumps ship to the Knicks in 2010, gets a legit supporting cast and still blows it, then the shit you're throwing at him might hold some water. Currently you're mocking him for not being able to win single handedly, its absolutely ridiculous.