The 2010 Summer transfer thread

[METALMAN]

Yeah well obviously 2 Champions League finals is a good return for European competition. He underachived domestically though, and he spent so much money on so many dud players.

[therockbox]

I don't think he underachieved domestically at all. He had to take on the established trio of Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal with a net spend of around £20m per season (which was more than made up for by our Champions League winnings) and the fourth highest wage bill in the league. He led us to our highest ever Premier League finish, finished above Arsenal on numerous occasions, and took us to within touching distance of Man Utd/Chelsea on numerous occasions (as well as outshining all three in Europe).

His transfer record is no worse than most, it's just that when you're essentially a club that has to sell to buy the players that don't work out are highlighted even more. Aside from Morientes, Pennant, Gonzalez and Keane as well, he's made a profit on almost every player he's bought and then sold. Even guff like Kromkamp/Josemi et al were sold for more than they were signed for, and at the time they were generally an upgrade on what we had before.

It's a shame he's going, but history will judge his reign incredibly kindly in a few years when Hicks and Gillett have completed their asset-stripping.

[METALMAN]

He led us to our highest ever Premier League finish,

what about this?

there was also his first season and his last season where Liverpool didn't finish in the top four.

I'm by no means saying he was a disaster or anything but I don't think he did that great domestically. And his transfer dealings were very dodgy indeed.

[Hobo]

In 2001-2 Liverpool achieved 80 points. 2008-9 Liverpool achieved 86 points in the Premier League. That is a better finish.

[METALMAN]

stop being so pedantic.

And he said highest not best anyway. so there.

[therockbox]

Yeah, highest, best, same difference >_>

In 2005 we basically sacrificed a top four finish to win the Champions League, something which I think you'd be hard pressed to find any Liverpool fan being annoyed with.

I disagree about his transfer dealings being "very dodgy" as well. As I said, he made a profit on every single player he signed then sold (bar a handful), and the majority of signings at the time were an improvement on what we had before. I know that if you look at a long list that contains the likes of Josemi, Kromkamp, Gonzalez, Morientes etc. it seems like a poor record, but looked at in context they're much better than they originally seem. I'm not saying they were good players by any means, but they were part of an obvious squad progression at the time.

It's also worth remembering that the entire set-up he inheritied from Houllier was awful. The best players were either getting on with a few years left in them (Hamann, Hyypia) or on the verge of leaving for a pittance (Owen). Players like Carragher and Finnan were considered nothing but short term options at best and liabilities at worst, whilst Gerrard was far less effective than he is now. On top of that the board has allowed Houllier, who everyone knew was leaving at the end of the season, to spend £14.5m on a striker, who then snapped his leg and missed a large chunk of the season.

[britneyspearsisgod]

In all fairness, Cisse was on target to becoming a top and deadly striker before the leg break and would have been a good player. After that, he struggled.

Not to mention it was the team that Benitez inherited that won Liverpool their Champions League glory (plus a few additions, so credit where credit is due, Señor Benitez). I don't get this idea that the team Houllier had couldn't win. Maybe Houllier couldn't do anything with the team, but they had some good players and had they made a go of the league, it's clear they could have done more.

I mean, Benitez and Houllier have both been unable to make that one final step to League Champions. Both have come very VERY close. It's a lot of problems Liverpool have at the moment that maybe have hurt them.

All in all, I'm divided. Benitez should go, but who can replace him without having to admit you may need to take a step back? Give it a couple of seasons and it may be Newcastle all over again. I would just say "alright, we may not be anything special at the moment. Let's sit back for a season or three, sneak into Europe, do well in cups and build a squad capable of future challenges. Get the finances sorted out, sell the club on to someone who cares about Liverpool and can help push the team forward and then muster a challenge.

Or get a rich Sheik to say "here's £3billion - go crazy" and hope for the best.

[HailtotheYo]

In 2001-2 Liverpool achieved 80 points. 2008-9 Liverpool achieved 86 points in the Premier League. That is a better finish.

Is it ? In 01-02 they finished 2nd .... in 08-09 they finished 2nd.

Did they gain more points ? Yes. Did they get a better position ? No.

Did they really have a better finish ? It all depends on your measurement.

[Liam]

More points, but same position, has to be a better performance, surely?

[HailtotheYo]

More points, but same position, has to be a better performance, surely?

On points yes, and I stated as such. But they were still 2nd. They didn't finish any better in the league though. What do you consider as the measurement ? If it's merely point total, then yeah they were "better." If you don't measure just on points, then the 08-09 season is no better than the 01-02 season.

[brenchill]

Liverpool have a long-running tradition of having managers who waste money. Over the past few decades there has been a revolving door of absolute toss leaving and being replaced with players who are equally as poor. This goes back even as far as the Roy Evans reign. If you're looking for examples I'm talking about dross such as Sean Dundee, Bjørn Tore Kvarme, Rigobert Song, Vladmir Smicer, Vegard Heggem, Djimi Traore, Titi Camara, Gregory Vignal, Igor Biscan, Chris Kirkland, Salif Diao, El-Hadji Diouf, Harry Kewell, Robbie Keane, Antonio Barraghan, Jan Kromkamp, and the list goes on and on. There are players there who for whatever reason failed to perform. There has been so much money wasted on players who have been out the door as quick as they came in which has seen clear out after clear out creating an unbalanced or 'new' team going in to every season.

[Liam]

I understand the list to some point, but players like Diouf, Keane, Kirkland and Kewell are nowhere near as bad as some of the others on that list. They either just didn't perform for you, or were injured all too often.

[therockbox]

In all fairness, Cisse was on target to becoming a top and deadly striker before the leg break and would have been a good player. After that, he struggled.

Not to mention it was the team that Benitez inherited that won Liverpool their Champions League glory (plus a few additions, so credit where credit is due, Señor Benitez). I don't get this idea that the team Houllier had couldn't win. Maybe Houllier couldn't do anything with the team, but they had some good players and had they made a go of the league, it's clear they could have done more.

I mean, Benitez and Houllier have both been unable to make that one final step to League Champions. Both have come very VERY close. It's a lot of problems Liverpool have at the moment that maybe have hurt them.

All in all, I'm divided. Benitez should go, but who can replace him without having to admit you may need to take a step back? Give it a couple of seasons and it may be Newcastle all over again. I would just say "alright, we may not be anything special at the moment. Let's sit back for a season or three, sneak into Europe, do well in cups and build a squad capable of future challenges. Get the finances sorted out, sell the club on to someone who cares about Liverpool and can help push the team forward and then muster a challenge.

Or get a rich Sheik to say "here's £3billion - go crazy" and hope for the best.

Cisse was never on course to being anywhere near a top striker. He was decent, but in a sense he was much the same as Owen - he couldn't fit into a system, it had to be built around him. Besides, my main gripe with the Cisse signing was allowing an outgoing manager (and everyone knew Houllier was gone at the end of the season) to spend any money at all, let alone almost £15m on a striker that the new manager - whoever it was - probably wouldn't have wanted. Cisse was a Houllier style striker, and Houllier wasn't going to be our manager. It was a massive cock up by Moores and Parry, but sadly not their biggest.

The key players in our Champions League win were Xabi Alonso and Luis Garcia, both signed by Rafa. Jamie Carragher went from being seen as a limited utility player, whose only use was covering all across the back four, to being one of the top centre backs in Europe that season. Finnan was seen as a waste of money at the end of Houllier's reign, under Rafa he became one of the most consistent right backs in the league (until his legs seeemed to go). Even Traore started to look half decent in Europe under Rafa. That squad was Houllier's in name only, Rafa took them to another level. The point with the league was that we weren't a team that could compete on both fronts, so the decision was made to sacrifice occasional points in the league to win the Champions League. We could have finished fourth that season, but probably would have gone out of the CL in the quarters or semi-finals.

When Houllier finished second in 2002, he was backed financially to make the signings to take us that 'one extra step.' He signed the likes of Diouf and Diao, opting not to sign Anelka. When Rafa finished second in 2009 he was forced to make a profit in the next transfer window. We sold a midfielder for £30m and were given £5m to make a down payment on a player we only signed because his injury record allowed us to structure a deal that would allow Hicks and Gillett to pay off a chunk of our debt, and when we've sold the likes of Voronin and probably Riera/Benayoun this summer that money will go to paying off the next instalment of the Aquilani deal. Besides that, the Liverpool of the last few years shouldn't be judged against winning the title, that is so far out of our reach it's funny. We overachieved in 08/09, and then the rug was pulled out from underneath us in the summer when the Americans promised investment, only to pull it halfway through the window. Players signed contracts having been promised significant investment in the team, of course they spent the next year looking for a way off the sinking ship when that investment didn't materialise.

The problem with your last point about 'waiting a couple of years' is that, in a couple of years, it's perfectly plausable that Hicks and Gillett could have finished asset stripping the club. This issue goes beyond what Rafa achieves on the pitch, for the last few years he has been the only voice at the club willing to call the owners to account as they have continued to destroy one of the biggest names in world football. Our next manager will be a yes man, they aren't going to hire someone who will continue to make their ownership 'unpleasant' - which is why their last choice to replace him was Jurgen Klinsmann. People, whether they're fans of Liverpool or not, who think our only problem is that we play 4-2-3-1 are incredibly naive to the situation we find ourselves in. This is a post from another forum that sums up our situation quite well, I think:

I think the key point here is its no longer about the manager. What is the central issue is the general malaise, persistent and unstoppable, now in evidence at the club.

The manager, whether you like him or not, whether the players like him or not, is unimportant. The fact that he made his continued employment conditional on funds being made available to him is. The dismissal (because that's what it is), the manner of it (a derisory £3 million up front and vague promises of later payments from an ownership £350 million in debt) and the timing (ambushing a man whilst on holiday and trying to bury the story under an avalanche of WC bullsh*t) suggests that no funds are available and the board have no sense of respect.

Worse still, the whole charade is reminiscent of Hick's tenure at the his rangers club, a big purchase up front to appease fans followed by slow financial strangulation and the club run into the ground over a number of years. Along the way, managerial casualties as a result of poor ownership decisions and lack of funds being made available. That team had to go into administration and have the club seized from its owner... there may be a long road, dark and difficult, ahead.

For those living in fantasy land waiting for a cuddly manager to come in and hug the players to a league title, pause and reflect for a minute.

- 2 years of negative transfer funds

- 50 million spent on blueprints

- the sale of the club values at £600-800 million after being purchased for approx £200 million

- no CL funding stream

- not even enough money to pay off the current manager

- key players unwilling to stay if new purchases don't occur

- an aging squad in dire need of an overhaul

- no serious contender on the horizon for management

- no funds to change the existing coaching and scouting team

- the slow process of bringing through young players will now grind to a halt

The only silver lining I can see is that after Benitez leaves his replacement will inevitably struggle so badly that the stupid press and stupid fans might finally come to realise that it wasn't the manager at fault all along. No doubt the Kanwars of this world will continue to point fingers at Rafa, but in 18 months time when the third transfer window passes and we have sold more players to pay off the debt, perhaps it will dawn on these idiots that we have been asset stripped, which is simply financial jargon for ass-raped.

[therockbox]

In 2001-2 Liverpool achieved 80 points. 2008-9 Liverpool achieved 86 points in the Premier League. That is a better finish.

Is it ? In 01-02 they finished 2nd .... in 08-09 they finished 2nd.

Did they gain more points ? Yes. Did they get a better position ? No.

Did they really have a better finish ? It all depends on your measurement.

01/02 - 80 points, 7 points behind the Champions, win/loss/draw record of 24-6-8, 67 goals scored and 30 conceded.

08/09 - 86 points, 4 points behind the Champions, win/loss/draw record of 25-2-11, 77 goals scored and 27 conceded.

Yeah, it was a better finish.

[britneyspearsisgod]

The thing is, Liverpool have been mismanaged for quite a while now and, in some respects, the club began to slip into decline all the way from the Fagan era. I would agree that, in their capacity, players like Diouf, Kewell, Morrientes and even players like Biscan and Smicer were not "bad" players. It's that for whatever reason they were bought by managers who didn't know how to use them properly.

As for Keane... I'm sorry, but Keane is a top quality striker and regardless of whether he was bought to work in a team featuring Gareth Barry, he is still of sufficient quality that you can rework the system around him and Torres. They had Mascherano - surely he could have done a similar job? And why couldn't Lucas get trained in that role? Am I missing something?

Benitez seems reluctant to actually train players as opposed to just buying ready-made quality. It's all well and good, but Alex Ferguson develops players as well as buys talent. I would like someone to show me where Benitez has actually developed someone to become better than they were, because I can't really see that many players. Lucas comes to mind, but he's still not at a sufficent level for me to be called Liverpool Quality.

Edited June 3, 2010 by XEON BSIG

[Hobo]

There appears to be a trend growing amongst media outlets, “expert” pundits, and rival supporters who strive to ensure a negative air surrounds Liverpool Football Club and more commonly its manager, Rafa Benitez.

It seems he can do no right in the eyes of some people—his own supporters included—and more false claims appear every week that serve only to derail him from his quest of rebuilding Liverpool Football Club.

As more and more newspapers churn out sensational headline after headline and "expert" television pundits spout opinion as fact; the more people are brainwashed by these stories and the further from reality a situation will get.

Many lazy debaters claim their opinion to be a pragmatic truth whilst they simply recycle misleading newspaper propaganda as their own knowledge or belief.

Biased supporters who choose to jump on the slander bandwagon when it involves a rival team are common place, and this only adds to the ever-growing ideology of a story perceived as fact.

Ideology: “a system that derives ideas exclusively from sensation or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant group of a society to all members of this society.”

“Organizations that strive for power will try to influence the ideology of a society to become closer to what they want it to be. Organizations and other groups (e.g. Media Outlets) try to influence people by broadcasting their opinions.”

One such myth which seems to have appeared recently has been the same tired line about Rafa Benitez and his transfers since his time at Liverpool.

You will hear people claiming things like:

“A larger proportion of Rafa's signings have been expensive and poor.”

This does of course depend on how a person interprets the words expensive and poor—the latter obviously being down to their personal opinion of a player.

If someone wants to use the barometer of anything over a million pounds to be expensive and any player other than Messi or Ronaldo is considered poor; then anyone will struggle to argue against that logic—me included.

We can easily address the “expensive” part of this particular argument:

(Numbers in brackets are players still at the club)

£20+ million: 1 (1)

Torres

£15-20 million: 2 (1)

Mascherano, Keane

£10-15 million: 2 (2)

Babel, Alonso

£5-10 million: 14 (9)

Dossenna, Riera, Agger, Skrtel, Reina, Benayoun, Leiva, Kuyt, Pennant, Crouch, Bellamy, Sissoko, Morientes, Garcia

£0-5 million: 47 (36)

Degan, Cavelieri, Ngog, Plessis, Insua, Leto, Itandje, Voronin, Arbeloa, El Zhar, Aurelio, Palletta, Fowler, Kromkamp, Barragan, Nunez, Zenden, Gonzalez, Carson, Pellegrino, Josemi, Martin, Antwi, Hobbs, Miki Roque, Gulacsi, Padelli, Anderson, Poloskei, Crowther, Hansen, Saric, Ayala, Weijl, Blanco, Flora, Mendy, Ajdarevic, Simon, Bouzanis, Nemeth, Pacheco, Palsson, Brouwer, Durán, Huth, Domínguez.

It is easy to see that the majority of Rafa’s signings have been below the £10 million mark and nothing like the fabrication that he has bought mostly “expensive” signings. It is also interesting to note that a large proportion are teenagers bought for the future of the club and may not be on alot of people's radars.

With 49 of his 66 signings still at the club, it means the selling on fee cannot yet be properly forecast and it is near impossible to fully determine if the original fee paid for each player is expensive.

Here are some more comments and claims made about Rafael Benitez:

“He has bought 53 players for £190 million and sold 56 for £108 million, clearly a loss of £82 million proves he doesn’t have a clue in the transfer market.”

I think the easiest way to explain this would be to just show you a full rundown of Rafael Benitez’ signings since he joined Liverpool in June 2004:

Players bought in by Benitez: 66

Players still at the club: 49

First Team: 18

Alonso, Reina, Agger, Aurélio, Kuyt, Arbeloa, Mascherano, Lucas, Torres, Itandje, Benayoun, Babel, Skrtel, Degen, Dossena, Cavalieri, Ngog, Riera.

Reserve Team: 22

El Zhar, Insúa, Palsson, Brouwer, Durán, Huth, Domínguez, Pacheco, Nemeth, Plessis, Hansen, Saric, Ayala, Weijl, Blanco, Flora, Mendy, Ajdarevic, Simon, Bouzanis, Crowther, Poloskei

Out on Loan: 9

Andriy Voronin, Jermaine Pennant, Sebastian Leto, David Martin, Godwin Antwi, Jack Hobbs, Miki Roque, Peter Gulacsi, Paul Anderson

A figure of 49 players bought by Rafa are still playing for the club with the majority (29) bought as youth players for the reserve team—with the idea for future revenue if they perform to their potential. It will also save the club a great deal of money if they turn out to be superstars worth a large transfer fee.

From that 49 figure, there are 18 still playing for the first team and contributing to the clubs success on a very large scale—with the majority of them being priced by many as a greater figure than when the players were initially bought by Rafa.

From the nine players out on loan, only two are established players with the other seven being young reserve players gaining experience at other clubs—with the hope of either returning to Liverpool’s first team or making a profit to invest in future transfers, a policy utilised by many big clubs.

Players Sold On by Benitez: 56

Players Bought by Other Managers and Sold on by Benitez: 39

Players Bought and Sold on by Rafa Benitez: 17

For me, this is the key point from which poorly informed debaters’ opinions collapse. Most propaganda articles or rival supporters will wildly claim that Rafa has sold "56" players and made little money in return.

They claim the “majority” of the "56" players the Liverpool manager has sold on have been at a loss and “proves” his failings in the transfer market. This is such a misleading statement to make that I really don’t know how people can still get away with it, let alone acctually believe it.

For starters, Benitez has sold 39 players bought by other Liverpool managers.

Benitez cannot be held accountable for selling a player at a loss when; Benitez was not the one who identified the player as a target in the first place; sanctioned the over-inflated transfer fee when the player was first purchased.

You can only really judge him on the players he has bought and sold since he has been at the club and this brings the true figure down to just 17 players.

Profit: 7

Carson +2.25, Barragan +0.43, Sissoko +2.6, Crouch +4.0, Gonzalez +2.0, Bellamy +1.5, Nunez +0.5

Loss: 6

Garcia -2.0, Morientes -3.3, Palletta -0.8, Josemi (swapped for) Kromkamp -0.25, Idrizaj -0.19, Keane -3.0 (could be even less depending on contract triggers)

Even: 4

Pellegrino, Zenden, Fowler, Padelli (all four players were brought in and moved on for a free transfer)

So the true extent of Rafa’s failings in the transfer market is just six players from 17, coming with a loss of just under £10 million within four and a half years—the most expensive loss being just £3.3 million; nothing like the losses achieved by other established Premier League managers who manage to avoid the media abuse storm.

Hopefully that is one media myth that's now been eradicated.

Source

I think that article explains Benitez's transfers a bit better than they have been reported as being. Even if it is a touch out of date.

Liverpool have a long-running tradition of having managers who waste money. Over the past few decades there has been a revolving door of absolute toss leaving and being replaced with players who are equally as poor. This goes back even as far as the Roy Evans reign. If you're looking for examples I'm talking about dross such as Sean Dundee, Bjørn Tore Kvarme, Rigobert Song, Vladmir Smicer, Vegard Heggem, Djimi Traore, Titi Camara, Gregory Vignal, Igor Biscan, Chris Kirkland, Salif Diao, El-Hadji Diouf, Harry Kewell, Robbie Keane, Antonio Barraghan, Jan Kromkamp, and the list goes on and on. There are players there who for whatever reason failed to perform. There has been so much money wasted on players who have been out the door as quick as they came in which has seen clear out after clear out creating an unbalanced or 'new' team going in to every season.

I'm not sure by what criteria some of those players are considered 'dross'? Liam has pointed out people you mention in some cases were quite good players who were often injured.

[therockbox]

Benitez seems reluctant to actually train players as opposed to just buying ready-made quality. It's all well and good, but Alex Ferguson develops players as well as buys talent. I would like someone to show me where Benitez has actually developed someone to become better than they were, because I can't really see that many players.

Really?

- Torres is a much more complete player than he was at Atletico, and has said himself how much Rafa has improved him.

- Gerrard is a far better footballer than he ever was under Houllier. If he hadn't changed his style he'd have been finished seasons ago. Running around like a headless chicken is great when you're in your early twenties, but beyond that it's unsustainable.

- Carragher. As I said, was nothing more than a utility player under Houllier, but under Rafa he was excellent. He's going downhill now, but he owes his reputation to the Benitez era.

- Lucas has come on leaps and bounds since arriving, and is one of three players (along with Reina and Mascherano) to come out of last season with any credit.

- Peter Crouch. Widely regarded as a joke when we signed him, by the time he left (which only happened because we couldn't afford to offer him a bigger contract to make up for not being first choice ahead of Torres) had established himself as an England international.

- Insua. Overexposed last season, but he's another player that has improved dramatically since we first signed him. Shouldn't be first choice, but with Aurelio's injuries and our inability to spend money we had no choice.

Just a few that first came to mind. Then you've got players like Skrtel, Agger and Reina who were hardly proven quality when we signed them. Decent young(ish) players, but all costing around £6m, which is hardly the 'going rate' for top class players.

[britneyspearsisgod]

Let's tackle therockbox's viewpoint:

Cisse was never on course to being anywhere near a top striker. He was decent, but in a sense he was much the same as Owen - he couldn't fit into a system, it had to be built around him. Besides, my main gripe with the Cisse signing was allowing an outgoing manager (and everyone knew Houllier was gone at the end of the season) to spend any money at all, let alone almost £15m on a striker that the new manager - whoever it was - probably wouldn't have wanted. Cisse was a Houllier style striker, and Houllier wasn't going to be our manager. It was a massive cock up by Moores and Parry, but sadly not their biggest.

This I agree with. It was foolish to give the man money to buy a player he wouldn't be using for that much longer. In terms of Cisse the player, however, I do believe he would have been a bigger asset had he stayed fit and healthy. But then that is purely from a personal viewpoint.

The key players in our Champions League win were Xabi Alonso and Luis Garcia, both signed by Rafa. Jamie Carragher went from being seen as a limited utility player, whose only use was covering all across the back four, to being one of the top centre backs in Europe that season. Finnan was seen as a waste of money at the end of Houllier's reign, under Rafa he became one of the most consistent right backs in the league (until his legs seeemed to go). Even Traore started to look half decent in Europe under Rafa. That squad was Houllier's in name only, Rafa took them to another level. The point with the league was that we weren't a team that could compete on both fronts, so the decision was made to sacrifice occasional points in the league to win the Champions League. We could have finished fourth that season, but probably would have gone out of the CL in the quarters or semi-finals.

Agreed and appologies if I didn't make this point clear. I agree Houllier didn't know how to use them properly. Rafa took them to this extra level. But I guess I was making a link between Rafa's buys and their quality compared to Houllier's buys and their quality. A team Rafa had to manage and utilize won the Champions League compared to a team that Rafa has been continually tinkering and modifying finishing 7th this season. It's true many things have gone against Benitez (working for retards comes to mind), but if he can take that team to the Champions League, how come his own team that he has moulded hasn't made similar pushes?

Although as I argue this point I am reminded by myself of the fact that, in essence, Benitez has improved quality and league position. Not by the margin you'd expect from a net £200m+ outlay.

When Houllier finished second in 2002, he was backed financially to make the signings to take us that 'one extra step.' He signed the likes of Diouf and Diao, opting not to sign Anelka. When Rafa finished second in 2009 he was forced to make a profit in the next transfer window. We sold a midfielder for £30m and were given £5m to make a down payment on a player we only signed because his injury record allowed us to structure a deal that would allow Hicks and Gillett to pay off a chunk of our debt, and when we've sold the likes of Voronin and probably Riera/Benayoun this summer that money will go to paying off the next instalment of the Aquilani deal. Besides that, the Liverpool of the last few years shouldn't be judged against winning the title, that is so far out of our reach it's funny. We overachieved in 08/09, and then the rug was pulled out from underneath us in the summer when the Americans promised investment, only to pull it halfway through the window. Players signed contracts having been promised significant investment in the team, of course they spent the next year looking for a way off the sinking ship when that investment didn't materialise.

Again, you are correct and more knowedgeable on this subject than me. This is why I love reading your posts - you know what you are talking about.

The problem with your last point about 'waiting a couple of years' is that, in a couple of years, it's perfectly plausable that Hicks and Gillett could have finished asset stripping the club. This issue goes beyond what Rafa achieves on the pitch, for the last few years he has been the only voice at the club willing to call the owners to account as they have continued to destroy one of the biggest names in world football. Our next manager will be a yes man, they aren't going to hire someone who will continue to make their ownership 'unpleasant' - which is why their last choice to replace him was Jurgen Klinsmann. People, whether they're fans of Liverpool or not, who think our only problem is that we play 4-2-3-1 are incredibly naive to the situation we find ourselves in.

And I understand this point. But as I say, it would be foolish to believe this problem is going to be solved in one transfer window. The club, whether it is owned by Hicks and Gillett or by some other entity, have to make a sound business decision and accept where they are. Sadly, it's a case of having to accept the reality that Liverpool are not going anywhere for a long time just yet, unless something drastic happens. That's not to say hope should not be kept: if someone can come and solve the first team problems in one season, good for them and they should chase this. But you have to keep the worst case scenario's in mind.

Really?

- Torres is a much more complete player than he was at Atletico, and has said himself how much Rafa has improved him.

- Gerrard is a far better footballer than he ever was under Houllier. If he hadn't changed his style he'd have been finished seasons ago. Running around like a headless chicken is great when you're in your early twenties, but beyond that it's unsustainable.

- Carragher. As I said, was nothing more than a utility player under Houllier, but under Rafa he was excellent. He's going downhill now, but he owes his reputation to the Benitez era.

- Lucas has come on leaps and bounds since arriving, and is one of three players (along with Reina and Mascherano) to come out of last season with any credit.

- Peter Crouch. Widely regarded as a joke when we signed him, by the time he left (which only happened because we couldn't afford to offer him a bigger contract to make up for not being first choice ahead of Torres) had established himself as an England international.

- Insua. Overexposed last season, but he's another player that has improved dramatically since we first signed him. Shouldn't be first choice, but with Aurelio's injuries and our inability to spend money we had no choice.

Just a few that first came to mind. Then you've got players like Skrtel, Agger and Reina who were hardly proven quality when we signed them. Decent young(ish) players, but all costing around £6m, which is hardly the 'going rate' for top class players.

Thank you. I wasn actually too lazy to work this out

I concede defeat here - you are correct. Benitez did develop these players. And more fool me for not thinking more on this subject.

Edited June 3, 2010 by XEON BSIG

[therockbox]

The key players in our Champions League win were Xabi Alonso and Luis Garcia, both signed by Rafa. Jamie Carragher went from being seen as a limited utility player, whose only use was covering all across the back four, to being one of the top centre backs in Europe that season. Finnan was seen as a waste of money at the end of Houllier's reign, under Rafa he became one of the most consistent right backs in the league (until his legs seeemed to go). Even Traore started to look half decent in Europe under Rafa. That squad was Houllier's in name only, Rafa took them to another level. The point with the league was that we weren't a team that could compete on both fronts, so the decision was made to sacrifice occasional points in the league to win the Champions League. We could have finished fourth that season, but probably would have gone out of the CL in the quarters or semi-finals.

Agreed and appologies if I didn't make this point clear. I agree Houllier didn't know how to use them properly. Rafa took them to this extra level. But I guess I was making a link between Rafa's buys and their quality compared to Houllier's buys and their quality. A team Rafa had to manage and utilize won the Champions League compared to a team that Rafa has been continually tinkering and modifying finishing 7th this season. It's true many things have gone against Benitez (working for retards comes to mind), but if he can take that team to the Champions League, how come his own team that he has moulded hasn't made similar pushes?

Although as I argue this point I am reminded by myself of the fact that, in essence, Benitez has improved quality and league position. Not by the margin you'd expect from a net £200m+ outlay.

I think his net outlay is closer to £100m (maybe slightly more, with all the undisclosed transfer fees now we'll never know the exact amount), which is around £20m per season. Given what he's been up against - the established Man Utd and Chelsea, as well as the wealth of Arsenal and now Man City - I think that, at the very least, he's done a decent job. Last season we underachieved massively, but I think what happened in the summer had a massive effect on that. Players suddenly realised they're at a club that is going nowhere.

I think under normal circumstances I'd agree with you about the pushes made early on in his reign compared to now, but for me it's telling that, under Moores and Parry, we were always in the hunt for at least one trophy right up until the end of the season. For as useless/incompetent/naive/shite as those two were, when they ran the club the culture around Liverpool was always positive. We existed to win trophies. When the Americans took over though, I think that attitude ended. We're now a club that exists to pay off debt, trophies are a distant second in terms of importance. I don't think that swing can be underestimated, and I don't think Riera is alone in his opinion that we're a sinking ship. Whatever happens with the manager this summer I wouldn't be surprised to see two of Mascherano/Gerrard/Torres leaving, as well as 'fringe' players like Babel, Riera and Benayoun, and I'd imagine any money made on them will be used to pay off a chunk of our debt.

[ChrisSteeleAteMyHamster]

The only thing these lists show me is that Liverpool have had some terrible, terrible players in the last ten years who really aren't fit to wear the Liverpool shirt.

...and I thought some of the Spurs players over the years had been total nobodies.