2011 NFL Season

[Panni]

Colt McCoy was absolutely defenseless. James Harrison should have dug his shoulder into his Colt's chest, make the standard, proper and legal tackle. There was no need to lead with your helmet and drill the other guy in the helmet. He's been told that several times yet he doesn't seem to understand. Assuming he is targeted...if you know you're a target for fines why do you keep doing exactly what they fine you for? Its because the guy is an idiot.

[Evil Chase K]

Colt McCoy was absolutely defenseless. James Harrison should have dug his shoulder into his Colt's chest, make the standard, proper and legal tackle. There was no need to lead with your helmet and drill the other guy in the helmet. He's been told that several times yet he doesn't seem to understand. Assuming he is targeted...if you know you're a target for fines why do you keep doing exactly what they fine you for? Its because the guy is an idiot.

McCoy was running the ball. Harrison was diving toward him to make the tackle and McCoy opened himself up and threw the ball.

Please tell me how Harrison is supposed to stop in mid-motion and change his trajectory.

[Maxx]

He shouldn't have been fucking headhunting in the first place. McCoy doesn't lower his head, that hit is still helmet to helmet.

We get it, you like the Steelers, go away.

And here's the league's take:

When a passer is outside the pocket area as in the case of Cleveland quarterback Colt McCoy last night, he is still afforded the protection of Rule 12, Section 2, Article 13 (3), which prohibits defensive players from using their helmet against a passer who is in a defenseless posture, including by “forcibly hitting the passer’s head or neck area with the helmet or facemask, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the passer by encircling or grasping him.

So there you go, dirty hit, against the rules, plain and simple, stop defending it.

[Evil Chase K]

Article 13 states...

Roughing will be called if, in the Referee’s judgment, a pass rusher clearly should have known that the

ball had already left the passer’s hand before contact was made; pass rushers are responsible for

being aware of the position of the ball in passing situations; the Referee will use the release of the ball

from the passer’s hand as his guideline that the passer is now fully protected; once a pass has been

released by a passer, a rushing defender may make direct contact with the passer only up through

the rusher’s first step after such release (prior to second step hitting the ground); thereafter the rusher

must be making an attempt to avoid contact and must not continue to “drive through” or otherwise

forcibly contact the passer; incidental or inadvertent contact by a player who is easing up or being

blocked into the passer will not be considered significant.

Harrison hits him less than two steps after he releases the ball.

(8) When the passer goes outside the pocket area and either continues moving with the ball (without

attempting to advance the ball as a runner) or throws while on the run, he loses the protection of the

one-step rule provided for in (1) above, and the protection against a low hit provided for in (5) above,

but he remains covered by all the other special protections afforded to a passer in the pocket

(numbers 2, 3, 4, 6, and 7), as well as the regular unnecessary-roughness rules applicable to all player

positions. If the passer stops behind the line and clearly establishes a passing posture, he will then be

covered by all of the special protections for passers.

So yes, it does appear that according to the rule that was an illegal hit, though you could argue that the first part of the rule I quoted would make it a gray area.

That said there's no way a player should ever be suspended for something that happens during a play. After a play? Sure. But if it's in the act of making a tackle or during the play, then no player should ever be suspended.

[Pizza]

That said there's no way a player should ever be suspended for something that happens during a play. After a play? Sure. But if it's in the act of making a tackle or during the play, then no player should ever be suspended.

Single stupidest thing I have ever read here. By far.

[Maxx]

So, if you're repeatedly warned about doing something illegal, and you continue to do it, you should never get more than a fine if it just so happens to occur during a play? Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world.

This isn't incidental contact or something that can't be controlled, he's intentionally leading with his helmet.

[Evil Chase K]

That said there's no way a player should ever be suspended for something that happens during a play. After a play? Sure. But if it's in the act of making a tackle or during the play, then no player should ever be suspended.

Single stupidest thing I have ever read here. By far.

Why?

You can't control what happens on the field during a play. The NFL already over legislates the game to a ridiculous degree. The moment you start suspending people for something that happens during a play is the moment you might as well put flags on people or play two-hand tag. The NFL is a violent game. Even if no one hit anyone "illegally" there would still be injuries.

[Evil Chase K]

So, if you're repeatedly warned about doing something illegal, and you continue to do it, you should never get more than a fine if it just so happens to occur during a play? Yeah, that makes all the sense in the world.

This isn't incidental contact or something that can't be controlled, he's intentionally leading with his helmet.

How do you know he's intentionally doing it?

I guess I could see suspending someone if they deliberately do something to injure a person, like go at a player's knee after the play or if they can hold up.

In this instance there's absolutely zero chance Harrison can stop himself once he's in the process of the tackle. And you can't tell me that you absolutely know for sure that McCoy's movement didn't lead to him getting hit in the head.

That's why I disagree with suspensions in on-field play. It's too much of a judgment call and you can't get in a player's head or prove that what happened wasn't incidental.

[Pizza]

You can control, and are responsible for your own reactions. I don't think suspensions should be handed out for first or second offenses. But when a player repeatedly breaks the same rule over and over again, creating a serious, life-threatening danger, despite repeated fines, clearly fines are not enough and discipline is necessary.

What if James Harrison had led with his foot? Booted McCoy in the head? Should he not have been suspended then, or just fined because he was trying to make a play?

[NobBe Nobbs]

Jesus, Chase, shut up for once. Harrison is intentionally doing it because he knows he's not going to get punished and it's a more effective tackle at putting somebody down. "You can't control what happens on the field during a play." YES YOU FUCKING CAN. DON'T TRY TO FUCKING HEADBUTT PEOPLE WITH A FUCKING HELMET. THAT SHOULD SOLVE HELMET-ON-HELMET HITS.

Jesus fuck.

[Evil Chase K]

You can control, and are responsible for your own reactions. I don't think suspensions should be handed out for first or second offenses. But when a player repeatedly breaks the same rule over and over again, creating a serious, life-threatening danger, despite repeated fines, clearly fines are not enough and discipline is necessary.

What if James Harrison had led with his foot? Booted McCoy in the head? Should he not have been suspended then, or just fined because he was trying to make a play?

Kicking a guy is an obviously deliberate attempt to injure.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Evil Chase K

[Cactus Drags]

I'm all for playing with an edge, but it sometimes comes across like he's intending to injure, and that's bullshit. I couldn't give a toss what he's like off the field, I know James Harrison because he's a football player, not because of his parenting skills.

I'm sure Seymour's been called out plenty of times for his shit, I know I've talked about it with people before. Whether or not people talk about other players being dirty or borderline has no bearing on whether or how James Harrison plays. He gets talked about more, because, hey guess what? He has more incidents that bring up these sorts of conversations.

[naiwf]

Kicking a guy is an obviously deliberate attempt to injure.

And SPEARING someone with your helmet isn't? You make me laugh.

If you've ever played football with equipment on you DO have control whether you lead with the crown of your helmet or not. It may be news to you, but guys in that league know what they're aiming at.

[Pizza]

You can control, and are responsible for your own reactions. I don't think suspensions should be handed out for first or second offenses. But when a player repeatedly breaks the same rule over and over again, creating a serious, life-threatening danger, despite repeated fines, clearly fines are not enough and discipline is necessary.

What if James Harrison had led with his foot? Booted McCoy in the head? Should he not have been suspended then, or just fined because he was trying to make a play?

Kicking a guy is an obviously deliberate attempt to injure.

As is a helmet to helmet hit. You don't need to kick a guy to bring him down, and you don't need to concuss a guy to bring him down. Harrison could have made that play without causing deliberate injury, but he didn't. If this was the first time Harrison had ever hit someone helmet to helmet, then I wouldnt want him suspended for it. But considering his history, only a complete fool would attempt to argue that it wasn't intentional. And an intentional attempt to injure is worthy of a suspension, even if it happens during a football play.

[mystikz]

Harrison was fined $120,000 in total last year alone. Why shouldn't he be suspended? Money doesn't matter, and he's shown despite warnings HE WON'T STOP DOING IT. he's shown no respect for the league or other players. his quotes about playing to hurt people didn't do him any favors.

he probably would get the benefit of doubt ..... if he didn't keep doing it over and over again. people defended Suh for a while, then he kept doing it.

Edited December 11, 2011 by mystikz

[Evil Chase K]

I'm all for playing with an edge, but it sometimes comes across like he's intending to injure, and that's bullshit. I couldn't give a toss what he's like off the field, I know James Harrison because he's a football player, not because of his parenting skills.

I'm sure Seymour's been called out plenty of times for his shit, I know I've talked about it with people before. Whether or not people talk about other players being dirty or borderline has no bearing on whether or how James Harrison plays. He gets talked about more, because, hey guess what? He has more incidents that bring up these sorts of conversations.

The point is about media attention. In the last three seasons Seymour's been ejected three times because he punched someone in the face. No huge media outcry, no suspension.

How is what Seymour did any better than what Suh did? But Suh's suspended because it's all over tv while Seymour is merely fined.

As for Harrison, he has more incidents sure, but how many of those were actually illegal hits?

[NobBe Nobbs]

Jesus, Chase, shut up for once. Harrison is intentionally doing it because he knows he's not going to get punished and it's a more effective tackle at putting somebody down. "You can't control what happens on the field during a play." YES YOU FUCKING CAN. DON'T TRY TO FUCKING HEADBUTT PEOPLE WITH A FUCKING HELMET. THAT SHOULD SOLVE HELMET-ON-HELMET HITS.

Jesus fuck.

As above. Chase, shut the fuck up, you're fucking wrong and you're just making yourself look even more laughable by defending one of the league's dirtiest players.

[Evil Chase K]

Kicking a guy is an obviously deliberate attempt to injure.

And SPEARING someone with your helmet isn't? You make me laugh.

Can you prove that Harrison was 1.) aiming for McCoy's head and 2.) deliberately doing so to attempt to injure him?

If you've ever played football with equipment on you DO have control whether you lead with the crown of your helmet or not. It may be news to you, but guys in that league know what they're aiming at.

They're also hitting moving targets. That is an element to every single hit in the NFL. Who's to say that if McCoy merely continues to run with the ball that Harrison doesn't hit him in the chest?

As is a helmet to helmet hit.

No it isn't. Not every helmet-to-helmet hit is intentional.

You don't need to kick a guy to bring him down, and you don't need to concuss a guy to bring him down. Harrison could have made that play without causing deliberate injury, but he didn't. If this was the first time Harrison had ever hit someone helmet to helmet, then I wouldnt want him suspended for it. But considering his history, only a complete fool would attempt to argue that it wasn't intentional. And an intentional attempt to injure is worthy of a suspension, even if it happens during a football play.

How do you know it was deliberate? Again that's the problem. You don't know. I do agree he could have hit him without injuring him, but you can't prove he did so intentionally.

Unless you're a psychic you don't know what's deliberate and what's not, sorry.

Harrison was fined $120,000 in total last year alone. Why shouldn't he be suspended? Money doesn't matter, and he's shown despite warnings HE WON'T STOP DOING IT. he's shown no respect for the league or other players. his quotes about playing to hurt people didn't do him any favors.

he probably would get the benefit of doubt ..... if he didn't keep doing it over and over again. people defended Suh for a while, then he kept doing it.

1.) I hate to break it to you but a LOT of players in the NFL have zero respect for the league or Goodell. Using that as a reason to suspend the guy is stupid.

2.) I still haven't seen anyone address how Harrison is supposed to change his trajectory in mid-motion and suddenly go low when he realizes he's heading for McCoy's head.

3.) Harrison's quote about hurting people is something every great NFL defender thinks, he's just the one dumb enough to say it. There's not a defensive player in the NFL who doesn't want to inflict pain and hurt people. The key, as Harrison stated, is injuring people. I don't think anyone out there is intentionally trying to injure people.

[Evil Chase K]

Jesus, Chase, shut up for once. Harrison is intentionally doing it because he knows he's not going to get punished and it's a more effective tackle at putting somebody down. "You can't control what happens on the field during a play." YES YOU FUCKING CAN. DON'T TRY TO FUCKING HEADBUTT PEOPLE WITH A FUCKING HELMET. THAT SHOULD SOLVE HELMET-ON-HELMET HITS.

Prove it.

As above. Chase, shut the fuck up, you're fucking wrong and you're just making yourself look even more laughable by defending one of the league's dirtiest players.

I disagree, I think anyone claiming to know the intent behind a football hit is wrong. No one knows for sure except James Harrison.

I've already conceded that according to the rule it was an illegal hit.

[Maxx]

I hope Harrison murders someone in cold blood one day, just so we can have Chase in here claiming that it should be manslaughter because we don't really know what he was thinking, since we're not psychic, and he may not have had control over his body when doing it.

I almost took Chase off of ignore because we haven't had one of these moments yet this season. I should have known it wouldn't last.