NBA Off-Season...

[DMN in the House]

Wow... I didn't know the sports idiocy was so high.

Anyone that says that trading Grant Hill, a nobody, and a rookie is a good trade is an idiot. This isn't your run of the mill center, or even all star we're talking about, this is Shaq, the most dominant force in the game, a man who can take an Eastern Conference team to the Conference Finals by himself.

[sahyder1]

Wow... I didn't know the sports idiocy was so high.

Anyone that says that trading Grant Hill, a nobody, and a rookie is a good trade is an idiot. This isn't your run of the mill center, or even all star we're talking about, this is Shaq, the most dominant force in the game, a man who can take an Eastern Conference team to the Conference Finals by himself.

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......and he's said he won't come back without Phil.....and he's asked for a trade. Screw the east, Shaq can take a Western team to the playoffs by himself. And I think you have trouble understanding how sports finances work. Without Hill's salary going to LA a trade is impossible.

[DMN in the House]

Well too fucking bad for Orlando then, looks like they don't have what it takes to get it done.

[naiwf]

I think the only player who could even possibly be traded for comparable value to Shaq would be someone like Nowitzki (plus maybe Howard and/or Daniels) since he's very young and KG, Duncan and J. O'Neal aren't going anywhere and LA doesn't need smalls if they're getting rid of Shaq. Buss & Kupchak (sp?) fucked up.

[Guest StreetzHopin]

The Lakers could possible get Okafor, Hill + Drew Gooden perhaps ( Reece Gaines) its the only thing that would possibly make since, i dont see the Lakers wanting Juwan Howard...

[sahyder1]

By Tom Friend

ESPN the Magazine

Jerry Buss is going to break up the Lakers or the state of Colorado is going to break up 'em up, but, either way, say your goodbyes.

Because the exits are coming in droves. Phil Jackson is already gone, and, the truth is, Shaquille O'Neal wants to join him.

It looks like Buss, the Lakers' owner, has made his choice: Kobe stays, the other Hall of Famers go. In other words, he is not averse to trading Shaq and is willing to build his franchise around a narcissist who's on trial for rape, doesn't make his teammates better and is in denial over all of it.

Buss apparently will stop at nothing to keep Kobe off the open market, and I've been told that means he will offer Bryant partial ownership down the road. In the short term, he'll at least offer Kobe a quasi-general manager job, meaning Kobe can help pick the new coach, and, ostensibly, Shaq's replacement.

Shaq knew this was coming, has known it for months, because he's refused to take the pay cut Buss wants him to take, the pay cut Kevin Garnett bent over backwards and took in Minnesota. Shaq says the Laker organization asked him to recruit Karl Malone last summer, asked him to recruit Gary Payton, and that it was understood they'd take care of him down the road. But they're not taking care of him, and, I'm not surprised that today he's just demanded a trade. He told me in late April he was resigned to the fact that it was time to go.

"Well, I've seen it before," he said as we sat alone in the team's El Segundo training complex. "I've seen it before. It happens with the Ewings and the Dominiques. But give me enough respect and enough courtesy and let me know. And I'll make it easier for everybody.

"But just don't tell me one thing and do another. Because you insult my intelligence like that. Just tell me. I ain't tripping. But the good thing about this country we live in, somebody will want this. Someone will want the Diesel. I've got about five, six good years left in me. Because the stuff that I'm doing, I still got a whole lot of stuff in me. I'm not even allowed to really take over the game how I want to. So I'm just out there playing on fumes right now."

Shaq says the Lakers vowed to get him 'whatever you need' after recruiting Malone and Payton.

O'Neal has a lot of beefs with the franchise. They are, in no particular order:

# Buss hasn't made his contract extension a priority.

"People act like they care, but they don't really care about you," he said in our interview. "Because if they cared about you like they said they did, then stuff would be in place. And that's the only problem I have with business. I'm so honest and stern that if you don't want me here, just let me know. I'll do my time, and we can make up a story together, and it can be easy. But don't say, 'Hey, if you do this [recruit Malone], and you do this [recruit Payton], I'll get you whatever you need, baby. And then when I do that and it comes time and here you are messing around and jiggling around.

"My thing is, if you're not going to pay me that, let me go. I've been in the game 12 years, I've been lucky enough to get three extensions in one lifetime, which is unheard of. So I'm not really complaining. But let me know. And don't try to match my numbers up against somebody else's numbers [Garnett's].

"I'm not a dummy. I understand they want to go younger, [Kobe's] only 25, 26. I'm not tripping over that. But let me know, just let me know. I don't have a problem, just let me know. Give me that respect and give me that courtesy. Let me know."

# They should appreciate the fact that he didn't rip Kobe's head off this year.

Think about it. Bryant called Shaq "fat" before the season. He said that Shaq begs out of games with mysterious injuries and that if he leaves the franchise, it'll be because of the big fella.

Shaq, somehow, never retaliated. When Kobe was late for meetings all year and late for practices, Shaq never said anything. When Kobe had his own mysterious injury [the sliced finger], Shaq never said anything. When Kobe wouldn't shoot that day in Sacramento, Shaq never said anything.

And the reason is, he'd promised Malone and Payton back in November he'd stay off of Kobe's case.

"[The rift] didn't flare up again, because I promised Karl and Gary and all my other teammates," Shaq said. "I was advised to be the bigger man. To be corporate. Because he's already going through a delicate situation [in Eagle, Colo.] and I don't want to add to it. So I said, 'Just be the bigger man.' I'm big. I'm corporate.

"See, even though I'm Shaq, I still have people over me. People over me who I respect and when they speak, there's no questions asked. A lot of people called me. The owner of the Staples Center called me and said, 'You did the right thing.' I always have corporate meetings, and they said, 'You did the right thing. You're good, Shaq. Appreciate that.'

"See, with me and Karl and Gary and a lot of other guys, you can say something and it doesn't matter how you say it. They don't take it the wrong way. For example, I can say, 'Come on, Devean, mother------, play hard.' I can say that to Karl. But a sensitive guy will take that very sensitively."

Like Kobe?

"Like Kobe."

# Kobe's style of play drives him batty.

No question, he admires Kobe's skills, but everything Shaq's stepfather said in San Antonio -- that Kobe essentially plays with blinders on -- Shaq agrees with.

"John Wooden told me when I was 18, 19 years old, the sign of a great player is not how many points you score, but how you make your other guys play with you," Shaq said. "That's a great player. A lot of these guys now think if you score points and if you do all that sh-- around the basket, you're a great player. And that's not true basketball, and that's not the type of basketball I know how to play. If you've got a guy open, hit him. I may miss a guy once or twice, but I'm not gonna miss you three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 times.

"I could score 40 every night. If I shot the mother------ all the time. But you've got to keep Rick Fox involved, because you're gonna need Rick. You've got to keep D-Fish [Derek Fisher] warm. You've got to keep all these guys warm."

# Phil and his beloved triangle shouldn't be the scapegoats.

Obviously, Shaq enjoyed that Phil ran the offense through him, but he also knows where the Lakers were before Jackson showed up: nowhere.

"So, to bring somebody else in would be to start all over, and I don't have time to start all over," he said in our interview. "And I don't really need to start all over, because the formula's written, we know what we've got to do."

Shaq also thought Kobe was inappropriate when he said he didn't like Phil "as a person" this year.

"Me being a professional, that wouldn't happen with me, because I was raised under discipline," he said. "Of course, you'll have your disagreements and all that. But if I didn't like the man like that, I wouldn't make it a national thing. Like I said, I'm loyal. Because I could never get over the hump, and Phil's the man that brought me over. Period. He's the best at what he does. Track record proves it. He has 9 [titles], going on 10."

But what Shaq says doesn't matter anymore, which is why he blew off his exit meeting Friday with general manager Mitch Kupchak. He's convinced the Lakers are already planning to trade him ... the same way Wilt was traded once, the same way Kareem was traded once.

Orlando is the place that has the first overall pick to dangle, the place that has tons more No. 1s stockpiled to give up, the place Shaq still owns a home in.

And Orlando is the only place that makes sense. Orlando is the place that has the first overall pick to dangle, and a ton of other No. 1 picks to add to the package. Orlando is the place that has huge contracts to send back to make the deal work, like Grant Hill's and Juwan Howard's. Orlando is the place Shaq still owns a home, and if Shaq comes, trust me, Tracy McGrady will rescind his trade request. This is the trade that Shaq wants.

And trust me, he's thought about life after Kobe ... thought about it a lot. Thought about all the scenarios.

Like the scenario of him staying and Kobe going to the Clippers.

"It wouldn't be a real rivalry," he said. "It'll be a media rivalry. Won't be a real rivalry. You have to do something and be something before you can become a rival. Like, Napoleon wouldn't have had a rival with a guy that had one sheep and one cow and no army. You know? I don't care how much they say, 'Hey, this guy with one sheep and one cow and his brother that's 50 years old, he's a cold cat. And he's gonna take out Napoleon and that whole army by himself.' So Kobe on the Clippers, that wouldn't be no rivalry. It'd just be, hey, he used to play here and now he's duh duh duh. It'll just be hype. Hype for a night."

Or the scenario of Kobe going not to another team ... but to jail.

Or the scenario of them playing against each other in next year's Finals.

"If we split up and I don't win, then everybody'll say, 'Well, if Shaq had Kobe, he would've won.' And if he don't win, it'll be, 'Well, if Kobe had Shaq, he could've won.' That's what everybody will be saying next year ...

"Well, I like my chances better."

Tom Friend is a senior writer for ESPN The Magazine. E-mail him at tom.friend@espnmag.com.

[Guest StreetzHopin]

NBA Free Agent List..

just incase anyone is curious....

[thatshortguy]

1. If it comes right down to it and Hill's given the choice of either sit at home with no paycheck or go to L.A. with a smaller paycheck, Hill would likely go to L.A. with a smaller paycheck. Better chance for a title (because regardless of who comes or goes, the Lakers won't fall too far off the radar), and a chance to be on one of the biggest stages in the NBA. It's a great chance for Hill to show just how badly he wants to play, if the deal is hammered out.

2. Height doesn't make a good center. Just ask Mr. Bradley.

3. I think this Kobe/Shaq rivalry is going to ultimately wind up with a good NBA rivalry, depending on where each guy goes.

4. Yeah, let's see Atlanta try to get ANYBODY. Real likely.

[sahyder1]

1.  If it comes right down to it and Hill's given the choice of either sit at home with no paycheck or go to L.A. with a smaller paycheck, Hill would likely go to L.A. with a smaller paycheck.  Better chance for a title (because regardless of who comes or goes, the Lakers won't fall too far off the radar), and a chance to be on one of the biggest stages in the NBA.  It's a great chance for Hill to show just how badly he wants to play, if the deal is hammered out.

2.  Height doesn't make a good center.  Just ask Mr. Bradley.

3.  I think this Kobe/Shaq rivalry is going to ultimately wind up with a good NBA rivalry, depending on where each guy goes.

4.  Yeah, let's see Atlanta try to get ANYBODY.  Real likely.

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1)Well Hill will continue to pocket money whether he goes to LA or not. Insurance covers his salary.

2) Great point on Bradley. Bosh ended up doing a pretty decent job in Toronto this year and he's smaller then Okafor.

3) Shaq would own that rivalry though......doesn't matter where it ends up. Let's just it'll be one of those weekend ABC games though. Maybe even Christmas day.

4) Hey, they got Rasheed for a whole game.

[naiwf]

With Hill (PF), Okafor ©, Kobe (SG), Fisher (PG) and I guess Devean George (SF) on the court, LA would be a smaller, poorer shooting version of the Mavericks. In other words, they'd win about 45-50 games and get bounced in the first round since they wouldn't be able to guard anyone's bigs. That assumes Grant Hill doesn't act like the guy from Unbreakable and get hurt a week into the season.

I'm not sold on Okafor being able to play 'D' against taller, more physical guys in the NBA, especially with his back problems. If LA made this deal, they could end up with both of the big names acquired for Shaq on the injured list as Hill has a chronic ankle injury and Okafor's back is iffy. Why anyone would make a trade with that many question marks involved for a proven commodity is beyond me.

[thatshortguy]

1)Well Hill will continue to pocket money whether he goes to LA or not.  Insurance covers his salary.

2) Great point on Bradley. Bosh ended up doing a pretty decent job in Toronto this year and he's smaller then Okafor.

3) Shaq would own that rivalry though......doesn't matter where it ends up. Let's just it'll be one of those weekend ABC games though. Maybe even Christmas day.

4) Hey, they got Rasheed for a whole game.

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1. Hill's trying to keep his "good guy" persona going, and people are going to start questioning him if he winds up being the nail in this potential deal's coffin. Of course, we're dealing in hypotheticals here.

2. I love Bosh. GT graduate =)

3. Don't be so sure. It all comes down to which team they end up on. A good guard with a decent team behind him can take out a big man with a below average team backing him.

4. Yeah, and didn't get much in the way of a trade. Granted my hometown boys are looking for cap space, but they've put the cart before the horse here. Nobody of note is willingly going to come here, no matter the paycheck. So go beg a proven coach who's willing to come here and sit for a while, go nab some youngsters, and let's homebrew a title.

Edited June 19, 2004 by The Midget

[Guest StreetzHopin]

ATL has a great night-life, and that should be able to pull Kobe in ^_^

[Guest bukkake bandit]

Once again, edit.

I've always seen T-Mac to the Clippers for Maggete and company. T-Mac to the Suns for Marion. T-Mac to the Rockets for Francis....

I think it's all talk though

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I heard T-Mac for Marion and Stoudamire or T-Mac for Francis and Mobley. Orlando must be retarded if they think Houston or the Suns would take that.

[D-Extreme]

Well we should learn one thing from the event of Shaq's request for a trade. Mitch Kupchak should have shut his mouth and Shaq could have stayed with the lakers instead of being likely traded this coming off-season or...draft day?

As for T-Mac getting traded, I dunno...but whatever Orlando is planning to get in exchange for T-Mac, good luck in ripping of one of 29 other teams in the NBA(that goes for Charlotte too. Sorry I didnt read the expansion draft rules. D-Extreme = ignorant fool)

In the world of Chicago - its almost certain that Paxson(John, not Jim) is planning to use the thrid pick Chicago has to trade it to a team. In recent weeks people are thinking they will give it to Atlanta since Atlanta is high on Howard and will make a trade to the top 3 teams on the draft.

On a matter...that doesnt need to matter at all - Marcus Fizer is seen on Wrigley wearing bulls uniform. He is an obvious choice for Charlotte to select from Chicago in the expansion. Is Fizer showing Bulls pride all the way to the end of his tenure? This poster says, YES.

All I am wondering is, what position is LA propsing Jackson to take after quitting the coaching job? Anyone have any idea what position they will ask him to take in the Lakers management?

[Guest StreetzHopin]

i heard Atlanta wants to trade with LA, and get the 2nd overall pick, if Orlando wont trade this 1st pick....

Lakers already looking for a new coach: Henry Bibby (Father of Sacramento King PG Mike Bibby - Coach At USC), Rudy Tomjanovic, George Karl, & Lakers assistants Jim Cleamons & Kurt Rambis

Lakers New Coach Search

Not sure if this makes since, but i heard that if Orlando wants to try and get Shaq, without moving McGrady, it would need to involve a 3rd team in the trade,something like this,...

Lakers Get: Allen Iverson, Drew Gooden

Magic Get: Shaquille O'Neal

76ers Get: Lakers 1st Round Pick, Magic's 1st Round Pick, Devean George/Karem Rush & Juwan Howard

This trade seems unbelievable, but i saw it on the T.V, but its hella hard to believe....

Delonte West enters NBA Draft...Nate Robinson(Washington) & Jay Straight(Wyoming) return to school.

Saint Joseph's guard Delonte West decided Thursday to skip his senior season and keep himself eligible for next week's NBA draft. Washington guard Nate Robinson will return to school for his junior season and Wyoming guard Jay Straight has withdrawn his name from the 2004 NBA draft.

-Credit: USA Today

Edited June 19, 2004 by StreetzHopin

[naiwf]

Why would the Lakers want AI if they plan on retaining Kobe at all costs? That makes less sense than the straight up trade with Orlando.

[Guest StreetzHopin]

i dont understand it either, unless they wanted to play Kobe at SF & put A.I. at SG....

[thatshortguy]

i heard Atlanta wants to trade with LA, and get the 2nd overall pick, if Orlando wont trade this 1st pick....

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1. If offered Shaq, Orlando will find a way to make a deal.

2. What does Atlanta have to offer aside from the pick? We're gonna trade Jason Terry for Shaq? Right.

3. SHAQ WON'T COME HERE!

[Guest StreetzHopin]

yea Lakers dont have the 2nd overall pick either, i believe the LA Clippers do, there is more to LA then the Lakers....

[thatshortguy]

yea Lakers dont have the 2nd overall pick either, i believe the LA Clippers do, there is more to LA then the Lakers....

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Forgot to elaborate. I've heard rumblings from the locals of a three-way involving Atlanta, Clipshow, & Lakeshow:

Clippers get: Jason Terry, Alan Henderson (provided they protect him), Jacques Vaughn, Jason Collier, Bob Sura

Lakers get: 2nd overall pick, Corey Maggette, Elton Brand, & Keyon Dooling

Hawks get: Shaquille O'Neal

It's a clusterfuck of a deal, first off. And second off, Shaq won't come here!