2008/2009 NBA Thread v2.0

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

Apparently there are a lot of people in here who think they know basketball, but in actuality, don't at all. I'm willing to bet not very many of the people calling LeBron a failure ever played basketball at a remotely high level, either.

If LeBron's a failure, I'll take being a failure any day.

[Mr. X]

I'm willing to bet not very many of the people calling LeBron a failure ever played basketball at a remotely high level, either.

So, what 'high level' did you play? And when?

[Maxx]

Yeah because his criticism is only valid if he plays at a high level himself? Please.

[Mr. X]

I'm calling him on his bullshit of using the "none of you played at all/at a high level" argument because others don't agree with him. If he did not play at a high level himself his statements end up meaning nothing, as he has made himself ineligible to discuss playing basketball.

Edited May 31, 2009 by Mr. X

[Slogger]

Paul Pierce, LeBron James and Kobe Bryant.

These 3 players aren't going to win the NBA championship in 2009.

Because the Magic Happened.

And now I'm going to leave because I know less about basketball than Football or Hockey.

GO MAGIC!

[DMN in the House]

With the hype he has, yeah, you'd think LeBron should be leading the shitty Cavs to the finals.

It's also hilarious to see people on other boards picking the Magic in 5 or 6 games. THE LAKER HATE IS STRONG, PEOPLE!

Kobe doin' work. Raise another banner. 6 games.

[AJ]

Paul Pierce, LeBron James and Kobe Bryant.

These 3 players aren't going to win the NBA championship in 2009.

Because the Magic Happened.

And now I'm going to leave because I know less about basketball than Football or Hockey.

GO MAGIC!

I'm on your side.

In my own funny little British way I can see a comparison between the way Orlando have got themselves to the finals and how Chelsea of the Premiership went about their two title wins a few years back. That is to say they haven't done anything that stands out like the Cavs winning two series 4-0 and getting lots of attention. They've just gone quietly about their business and got the job done much like Chelsea won a ton of games 1-0 playing 'dull' but efficient football and beat teams like Arsenal and Man Utd to the title who were playing pretty flowing football and sometimes winning by large margins but were more inconsistant.

Maybe I'm talking shite but that's the way I see it.

[Trey]

I love how during the year everyone praised LeBron's supporting cast and now that LeBron couldn't lead his team to even the Finals in a watered down East everyone is blaming those teammates. You want to know why LeBron gets scrutinized so much by most fans? He's the next Jordan, The King, Witnesses, etc. Even if that is all media hype, you can't argue the fact he has "The Chosen One" tattooed on his back. Seriously.

And for arguments sake, I'm looking up the numbers. In 1991, the three players behind Jordan averaged 44.4 points while LeBron's three averaged 40.7, not that big of a difference. Other then Jordan, the top 3 rebounders averaged 21 rebounds a game. LeBron's three averaged 17.8 a game, but Chicago's three top rebounders averaged 36 minutes a game while Cleveland's rebounders averaged 25 minutes a game, so if I did my math correctly, had Chicago's rebounders only played 25 minutes a game they would've only grabbed about 14 rebounds. Chiacgo's top three guys in assists averaged about 2 more a game but with as much as LeBron handles the ball, that's to be expected.

So yeah, if you look at the numbers, the players surrounding Jordan in 1991 are very similar to the players that LeBron had this year in terms of production. And Jordan's team matched up against Magic, Worthy, Byron Scott, Vlade Divac, and Sam Perkins, all who averaged more then 13 points a game. Just some numbers to go with the argument.

[livid]

Apparently there are a lot of people in here who think they know basketball, but in actuality, don't at all. I'm willing to bet not very many of the people calling LeBron a failure ever played basketball at a remotely high level, either.

If LeBron's a failure, I'll take being a failure any day.

Uhh, he didn't even make it to the Finals....that's kinda the point of the game no? So, yeah, he failed. It's not rocket science.

And I'm not even going to touch how stupid that first statement is.

[naiwf]

I love how during the year everyone praised LeBron's supporting cast and now that LeBron couldn't lead his team to even the Finals in a watered down East everyone is blaming those teammates. You want to know why LeBron gets scrutinized so much by most fans? He's the next Jordan, The King, Witnesses, etc. Even if that is all media hype, you can't argue the fact he has "The Chosen One" tattooed on his back. Seriously.

And for arguments sake, I'm looking up the numbers. In 1991, the three players behind Jordan averaged 44.4 points while LeBron's three averaged 40.7, not that big of a difference. Other then Jordan, the top 3 rebounders averaged 21 rebounds a game. LeBron's three averaged 17.8 a game, but Chicago's three top rebounders averaged 36 minutes a game while Cleveland's rebounders averaged 25 minutes a game, so if I did my math correctly, had Chicago's rebounders only played 25 minutes a game they would've only grabbed about 14 rebounds. Chiacgo's top three guys in assists averaged about 2 more a game but with as much as LeBron handles the ball, that's to be expected.

So yeah, if you look at the numbers, the players surrounding Jordan in 1991 are very similar to the players that LeBron had this year in terms of production. And Jordan's team matched up against Magic, Worthy, Byron Scott, Vlade Divac, and Sam Perkins, all who averaged more then 13 points a game. Just some numbers to go with the argument.

What he said. It's funny how LeBron "finally got the pieces he needed" this year, and in the first two rounds of the playoffs when they won all 8 games by double figures. But then suddenly those pieces became trash and the King was doing everything on his own. That's why I don't like fanboys. LeBron is the guy who wants to be a global icon and achieve Jordan status yet he ran out of the building without talking to the media like a spoiled little bitch. I can guarantee you if his team won last night that wouldn't have happened.

LA should win this in 6, but I wouldn't mind seeing the Magic win so Howard gets his and Ron Jeremy can win the title that Riley stole from him in '06.

[gunnar hendershow]

So because I'm putting up a logical argument why your LeBron hate is incredibly ignorant and biased I'm suddenly a LeBron fanboy? I'm not even from Ohio.

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

The point I was making about playing basketball (and note I said at a remotely high level, IE: not d-1, nba, w/e, but thanks for taking what I said and running with it completely out of context - but I guess I shouldn't be surprised with the way this argument has gone so far. Remotely "competitive" would have been more accurate as I'm referring to being a contributor on a competitive high school team.) I was discussing that in terms of the understanding of basketball being a team game, which it seems many people don't seem to understand, as well as the fact that Orlando was an awful matchup for Cleveland.

Who cares what Jordan's teammates AVERAGED? Basketball is a game where you can learn a lot from statistics, yes, but not nearly everything, like baseball, for instance. Simple scoring and rebounding averages don't tell the whole story. LeBron has nobody else on his team with decent size who can play a damn bit of perimeter defense. He has no front line players who can make a traditional post-up move and consistently score inside. Mo Williams doesn't even act as a true point guard within the Cleveland offense - LeBron is basically a point forward.

The players surrounding Jordan were not at ALL similar to the players surrounding LeBron. I don't give a damn what the stats say. If you honestly think their teammates compare fairly to each other, you are insane.

And yes damshow, clearly you're a fanboy.

EDIT: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/200...iminated-090531 (extremely well-put)

Edited May 31, 2009 by KeepinThatFunkAliveV4

[naiwf]

How could Mo Williams play the traditional PG role when the Cavs offense is essentially give the ball to LeBron, set up a 1-2-2 or 1-4, let him dribble the clock down to under 8, and then drive and dish if the double comes or take it to the hole if it doesn't? You can't be a PG and run an offense if you don't have the ball.

Anyone who argues that the Cavs secondary players have sucked ass all season long IS a fanboy. You can't win 66 games in this league and then go 8-0 in the first two rounds of the playoffs with a buncha scrubs and one superstar or it would happen EVERY year because there are always 2-4 legit superstars in the league who aren't playing with anything remotely resembling championship caliber teammates.

[gunnar hendershow]

How could Mo Williams play the traditional PG role when the Cavs offense is essentially give the ball to LeBron, set up a 1-2-2 or 1-4, let him dribble the clock down to under 8, and then drive and dish if the double comes or take it to the hole if it doesn't? You can't be a PG and run an offense if you don't have the ball.

Anyone who argues that the Cavs secondary players have sucked ass all season long IS a fanboy. You can't win 66 games in this league and then go 8-0 in the first two rounds of the playoffs with a buncha scrubs and one superstar or it would happen EVERY year because there are always 2-4 legit superstars in the league who aren't playing with anything remotely resembling championship caliber teammates.

Nobody's even arguing that they sucked ass. I'm, at least, arguing that they didn't match up with the very well-balanced Orlando team. With the exception of Mo Williams none of them are more than starters on a lottery team. You're forgetting 28-7-7 (and 35-9-7 and 51% shooting in the postseason). Jordan had numbers resembling that twice in his career, and besides him nobody has had a statistical season like that. He DID carry this team in the manner Jordan did before the arrival of Pippen and Grant. That's a fact.

His surrounding cast had its moments this year, but they were very one-dimensional. Think 2007 Mavericks. As the season went on, it became clear that they couldn't defend the perimeter to save their life and if the ball was taken out of James' hands were lacking in a lot of chemistry as well the ability to make plays. This is what everyone who actually watched the NBA regular season (all 5 of the people in the world who do lol) started to figure out. What nobody, myself included, expected was for Orlando to be able to drain the three on such a consistent basis. They're a team that made the great decision to get Rafer Alston, a move that largely nullified the loss of Jameer Nelson. The matchups were all in their favor, and they had a coach who should have won COY (Seriously, Mike Brown fucking sucks). If the Celtics won that semifinal, I feel its safe to say the Cavaliers would have had a much easier time advancing. Its the blessing and the curse of playoff sports. Sometimes the best team against 95% of the league plays the 5% that, while losing to a lot of the rest of the league due to matchups, is able to exploit every weakness of the other team. That's what we saw.

Edited May 31, 2009 by damshow

[naiwf]

Nobody's even arguing that they sucked ass. I'm, at least, arguing that they didn't match up with the very well-balanced Orlando team. With the exception of Mo Williams none of them are more than starters on a lottery team. You're forgetting 28-7-7 (and 35-9-7 and 51% shooting in the postseason). Jordan had numbers resembling that twice in his career, and besides him nobody has had a statistical season like that. He DID carry this team in the manner Jordan did before the arrival of Pippen and Grant. That's a fact.

His surrounding cast had its moments this year, but they were very one-dimensional. Think 2007 Mavericks. As the season went on, it became clear that they couldn't defend the perimeter to save their life and if the ball was taken out of James' hands were lacking in a lot of chemistry as well the ability to make plays. This is what everyone who actually watched the NBA regular season (all 5 of the people in the world who do lol) started to figure out. What nobody, myself included, expected was for Orlando to be able to drain the three on such a consistent basis. They're a team that made the great decision to get Rafer Alston, a move that largely nullified the loss of Jameer Nelson. The matchups were all in their favor, and they had a coach who should have won COY (Seriously, Mike Brown fucking sucks). If the Celtics won that semifinal, I feel its safe to say the Cavaliers would have had a much easier time advancing. Its the blessing and the curse of playoff sports. Sometimes the best team against 95% of the league plays the 5% that, while losing to a lot of the rest of the league due to matchups, is able to exploit every weakness of the other team. That's what we saw.

I agree with your entire second paragraph. The problem with LeBron having the ball 80% of the time is that no one ever does anything but spot up in their corner and wait for LeBron to draw a double and kick. It's as much Mike Brown's fault for not drawing up some OTHER plays as it is the roleplayers' fault for not expanding their roles. What good is having an "all-star" caliber PG if he never has the ball except when he's passing to LeBron or receiving a pass from LeBron for an open look? They can't just bench Z because he's perfect for their "offense" given his limited mobility, but excellent range. If LeBron ever wants to win a championship it's going to have to be on a team that realizes that other guys need to touch the ball to develop the skills to complement him better. Next season if KG is healthy and Dwight Howard is still alive and kicking, the Cavs still won't make it to the Finals because Brown will keep everything the same and they don't have any money or chips to make a big deal.

[El Presidente]

Here's my opinion on all this. Now I'm a die hard NBA fan, and I love the Los Angeles Lakers, so I might be a little bias towards Kobe. With that aside, I actually look at what Lebron James did in the eastern conference finals as a HUGE disappointment. And I'll say this, it's HIS fault the cavs lost the series, not the supporting cast. There are times when Kobe Bryant doesn't even touch the ball on the Lakers offense, and they can still run a successful set and score or get open looks because of their great passing ability as a team.

The Cavs just don't have that great of ball movement, and it's not because their individual players aren't decent passers - Mo Williams, Delonte West, and Illgauskas are all guys that can share the ball, it's because the way they ran their offense (especially in the finals) was just by isolating Lebron and letting him try to force it, and if it wasn't there, kick it out for an open shot. Once a couple of those open shots are missed, that set stops working. The Cavs barely got any ball movement in the whole series aside from a few spurts, and were barely ever taking shots in good rhythm. You just can't get it in your head that you can give the ball to LeBron to bail you out of situations if you're Cleveland or else you lose all the confidence you have in your own game, and I feel that's what basically happened to them against The Magic. Plus, forcing the ball one-on-one like that creates a lot of turnovers and that's not what you want against a team that likes to run in transition and shoot the quick three.

LeBron just doesn't understand when to let his team-mates shine without being in the spotlight. I guess you can say Kobe definitely had the same problem when he was younger, but I just don't think LeBron's maturity level will ever reach Kobe's. Besides, anyone that watched Kobe: Doin' Work has to realize just how much Kobe understands the game of basketball and how strategic his game really is, and I think that just puts him at another level from LeBron. LeBron gets most of his points because of his size and quickness and ability to blow by defenders, and that's just not typically a conventional game for the leader of an NBA Championship team. He's just got a lot to go before he can get to the level that Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant are at as far as being a clutch player or a championship winner. He's just an uber athletetic ball hog right now.

Also, I just hate how nobody's calling LeBron a ball hog for doing the same things Kobe was doing the year he averaged 35 and everyone and their mother were calling him a ball hog. When Kobe scored 81 it was all jokes about how he "doesn't pass the ball" but when LeBron takes literally almost every shot in a quarter it's "magical" .... please.

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

Here's my opinion on all this. Now I'm a die hard NBA fan, and I love the Los Angeles Lakers, so I might be a little bias towards Kobe. With that aside, I actually look at what Lebron James did in the eastern conference finals as a HUGE disappointment. And I'll say this, it's HIS fault the cavs lost the series, not the supporting cast. There are times when Kobe Bryant doesn't even touch the ball on the Lakers offense, and they can still run a successful set and score or get open looks because of their great passing ability as a team.

The Cavs just don't have that great of ball movement, and it's not because their individual players aren't decent passers - Mo Williams, Delonte West, and Illgauskas are all guys that can share the ball, it's because the way they ran their offense (especially in the finals) was just by isolating Lebron and letting him try to force it, and if it wasn't there, kick it out for an open shot. Once a couple of those open shots are missed, that set stops working. The Cavs barely got any ball movement in the whole series aside from a few spurts, and were barely ever taking shots in good rhythm. You just can't get it in your head that you can give the ball to LeBron to bail you out of situations if you're Cleveland or else you lose all the confidence you have in your own game, and I feel that's what basically happened to them against The Magic. Plus, forcing the ball one-on-one like that creates a lot of turnovers and that's not what you want against a team that likes to run in transition and shoot the quick three.

LeBron just doesn't understand when to let his team-mates shine without being in the spotlight. I guess you can say Kobe definitely had the same problem when he was younger, but I just don't think LeBron's maturity level will ever reach Kobe's. Besides, anyone that watched Kobe: Doin' Work has to realize just how much Kobe understands the game of basketball and how strategic his game really is, and I think that just puts him at another level from LeBron. LeBron gets most of his points because of his size and quickness and ability to blow by defenders, and that's just not typically a conventional game for the leader of an NBA Championship team. He's just got a lot to go before he can get to the level that Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant are at as far as being a clutch player or a championship winner. He's just an uber athletetic ball hog right now.

Also, I just hate how nobody's calling LeBron a ball hog for doing the same things Kobe was doing the year he averaged 35 and everyone and their mother were calling him a ball hog. When Kobe scored 81 it was all jokes about how he "doesn't pass the ball" but when LeBron takes literally almost every shot in a quarter it's "magical" .... please.

First bolded point: Yeah, Kobe's supporting cast is more competent and capable than LeBron's - it's not debateable.

Second bolded point: So Kobe is on another level from LeBron because he had a movie made about him by Spike Lee? You think because LeBron didn't have a similar movie he doesn't talk the game just as much?

Third bolded point: Kobe has never averaged more than 6.0 assists in a season. LeBron has never averaged under 5.9 and that was his rookie season. I'm not saying Kobe is a ball hog, and he isn't, at least not since the past few season - he has matured greatly as far as sharing the ball. But to call LeBron a ball hog is a bit ridiculous. Does he handle the ball a majority of the time? yes, but it's out of necessity when you consider the lack of ball handlers on the Cleveland roster. Calling LeBron a ball hog is basically the same as calling a high scoring point guard who averages 7 assists a game a ball hog. That's basically what LeBron is - a point forward.

And if you want to goto statistics on the matter of LeBron being a "disappointment" against Orlando, here's his series averages, according to ESPN

38.5 PPG, 8.0 APG, 8.3 RPG, 1.17 STL, 1.17 BLK, 4.17 TO (Yeah, it's higher than what you would like but it's skewed primarily due to one game, and it's essentially a 2-1 A-TO ratio.)

Edited May 31, 2009 by KeepinThatFunkAliveV4

[El Presidente]

That just brings up the point again that you have to go beyond the stats to really comprehend the impact the players make on their team. LeBron's assists mostly come off him driving and kicking it out once the double comes. There's no doubt that he's a great passer, I just don't think he's that good of a team-mate. He doesn't create for others. He creates opportunities for himself, and is a good enough basketball player to pass it to a wide open guy. Kobe has an impact on the game even if he doesn't touch the ball. LeBron is just a superior athlete and is literally unstoppable, and no, I do not think he understands the game as much as Kobe Bryant. I think he gets most of his points, assists, rebounds, blocks, steals, and all that mainly because of his physical dominance. That's not to say that LeBron's not a very smart player, I just wouldn't say he's anywhere near Kobe's level. And I thought Kobe was one of the smartest players in the NBA WAY before Doin' Work, I just think that documentary might've opened up a lot of "casual" nba fans's eyes to what exactly goes on in Kobe's game.

I think LeBron clearly forced the issue against Orlando more than he should've, hence why I called him a ball hog. He doesn't need to touch the ball to be a part of the offense, and I just don't think he likes that concept. He likes always being in control of the offense, but there's no reason why the Cavs couldn't run sets similar to the Lakers's triangle where Kobe spreads the floor away from the ball for Gasol to post up with a lot of space, with Fisher and Ariza to be ready to make their open shots. There's no reason why the Cavs couldn't do something similar with Ilgauskas, who's a very capable passer, and with Mo and Delonte, and even Wally Sczerbiak and Dan Gibson.

I just think the Cavs go in complete panic when LeBron isn't the one creating their offense, and that's bad for a team. Just from watching last night's game, it seemed like the only way other guys were getting shots was by doing the same thing LeBron had been doing - dribbling, dribbling, dribbling and then taking a contested shot or forcing the drive. They just didn't seem to have that trust in each other, and I think a lot of that comes from your leader. That's why the Lakers weren't very good when Kobe was being a ball hog a few years ago. The Lakers are such a better team now because Kobe has proved that he trusts his team-mates, and sometimes even when they're not making their shots, he'll keep getting them open looks and won't force the issue so much, even though I'm sure he still trusts himself to make any shot over anyone else on his team.

A big part of the problem, though, is the coaching. A coach shouldn't purposely run isolations every play. Phil Jackson might let Kobe take over, but he certainly doesn't encourage him to, it's something that's just gotta' come naturally. LeBron's game just felt forced. He played almost every minute of every game in the series and averaged almost 50% of his team's points. If Kobe did the same, LA would suffer the same result as the Cavs. It's a fact that the Lakers have a way better record when Kobe takes less than 21 shots per game, and that's no coincidence. I just think that's something LeBron should think about if he gets to another conference final. Teams are not just going to let you go one-on-five and win a game, it's the FINALS. I mean, don't get me wrong.. Lebron is not usually a ball hog, but in this series against Orlando he definitely was. I realize that he was trying to do everything he could to win, but he was definitely forcing it and killing the flow of the offense.

[KeepinThatFunkAliveV4]

LeBron drawing the D's attention then passing to the open man sounds like creating opportuniteis for others to me.

With most of your reasoning, it sounds like a lot more of your criticism should be directed at Mike Brown rather than James.

But saying the Cavs should be able to run a similar triangle offense is ludicrous...Cleveland simply doesn't not have the skilled personnel to run that type of an offense. LA does and they have the coach to educate them on how to execute it.

I really think Cleveland is going to need an overhaul (and that could happen this season with the guys they have leaving, but then that would result in trying to find team chemistry all over again) or LeBron is going to have to go some where else for him to break through and win his first ring. LeBron is probably just as good of a coach as Mike Brown, and honestly, from watching Cleveland games, it looks like LeBron does just as much coaching as Brown does.

Edited May 31, 2009 by KeepinThatFunkAliveV4

[livid]

Jesus Christ, ugh.

LeBron is overrated. Until he wins a Championship, he will be. It doesn't matter what he accomplishes in a series as far as stats go because stats are meaningless. The only thing worth meaning in any sport is a championship ring. If you don't win one, you fail. You can argue that it's not his fault that they didn't win and that his teammates' are the ones to blame but you're deflecting the blame because you don't want to see Prince James (barely even Prince, mind you) criticized. Up until this series, the Cavaliers bench was considered the best in the league, better than the Lakers' and you can go back the last couple of weeks and look at almost every analyst saying that the Cavaliers have a better bench than the Lakers. But now that he lost, it's his teammates' fault when HE IS SUPPOSED TO MAKE THE TEAM BETTER. There's no if's, and's or but's about it; being the superstar on your team, the "savior" of the NBA, you make your team better, not the other way around.

He didn't win a championship, he failed. It's not his teammates' blame to be shouldered, it's his. He's supposed to make the team better because he's supposed to be Magic Johnson mixed with MJ and if he can't even make it to the Finals, then he failed.