Major League Baseball 2010

[sahyder1]

You can't possibly be a baseball fan and oppose the wildcard. It has made the 2nd half of the season actually mean something in most of the cities. Rather then the rest of league playing in front of empty stadiums because 2 teams ran away with the division races we actually get meaningful games in a bunch of cities in August and September.

No the NCAA tournament won't be diluted with expansion. They should go to straight up 96 team tournament and get rid of the NIT which has been irrelevant for years. If you think people are going to care any less for the NCAA tournament with 68, 96 or 128 teams you're mistaken. NCAA tournament is popular because of the gambling involved and that will remain the case.

There was nothing Selig could have done about the tie all-star game. He was in a lose-lose situation. If the game went on and a pitcher got hurt he would have faced criticism for that too. They've worked around that now by adding more roster spots in the game which is a good decision. Argument against home field being decided by the game is pretty stupid too. It's not like alternating between the leagues was a revolutionary idea. This idea is no worse then the past system.

The players were to blame for the steroid trouble. That union was too strong for steroid testing to be implemented without congress jumping in. That happened long before Selig became commissioner.

I don't recall Selig ever saying that Rose would get in once he apologized. The apology was a first step.

[HailtotheYo]

You can't possibly be a baseball fan and oppose the wildcard. It has made the 2nd half of the season actually mean something in most of the cities. Rather then the rest of league playing in front of empty stadiums because 2 teams ran away with the division races we actually get meaningful games in a bunch of cities in August and September.

I'm not necessarily saying that it is my viewpoint, but who are you to say that someone can't be a baseball fan unless they like the Wild Card ? Of all the sports, Baseball is the one littered with "purist" type of followers. The Wild Card is an abomination in that view. While "playoffs" and "more teams with a chance" is the baseline American mantra in sports, not everyone likes it. I have yet to have cared about a WC race as much as I did with SF/LA pennant race in 1993 when the 103 win Giants lost out on the playoffs on the last day. Opening up the playoffs gave more teams reason to care, sure. It also took away a fundamental element that MLB had over all other American sports. There was ZERO question about the teams in the playoffs. Now, with the division re-alignment and WC we're worrying about the 7-8th best teams. We shouldn't be. This isn't grade school were everybody gets a participation ribbon. I don't care about who the 7-8th best teams are and honestly I don't think they have any business playing for a title.

No the NCAA tournament won't be diluted with expansion. They should go to straight up 96 team tournament and get rid of the NIT which has been irrelevant for years. If you think people are going to care any less for the NCAA tournament with 68, 96 or 128 teams you're mistaken. NCAA tournament is popular because of the gambling involved and that will remain the case.

See, this is just where we differ. I already feel that the tournament is too big (in terms of allowing teams to contend for a national championship). While the minor addition might not do anything to interest, I think you'd be very surprised as to the reaction to a 96 or 128 team tournament. I mean if that's the case, why the hell play the regular season ? What's the point ? We've already got teams in the tourny that honestly shouldn't be there. The Big East is fantastic, but being 8th best in the conference doesn't make your argument to be in the tourny valid. I love FSU, but they had no business playing for the national title. Besides, you speak like there aren't already people that think the tournament was too big (Jay Bilas).

There was nothing Selig could have done about the tie all-star game. He was in a lose-lose situation. If the game went on and a pitcher got hurt he would have faced criticism for that too. They've worked around that now by adding more roster spots in the game which is a good decision. Argument against home field being decided by the game is pretty stupid too. It's not like alternating between the leagues was a revolutionary idea. This idea is no worse then the past system.

Uh, he could have not called the game. Even you can't say that the reaction indicated anything other than everybody would have rather seen the game finished. And wow, I can see where you stand on Selig by the home field opinion. My opinion on it is no more stupid than you apparently being ok with the fact that a mid-season EXHIBITION showcase weighs heavily on the championship series of the sport. In no way, shape, or form should a game that doesn't count for anything ... count for anything. That's like saying the conference that wins the Pro Bowl will have a city from there host the Super Bowl the next year. F'n dumb. Perhaps it wasn't revolutionary, but at least alternating the sites from league to league each year was fair, impartial, and had nothing influencing it from the outside. The teams involved directly dictated the site of the WS. How is that stupid ?

The players were to blame for the steroid trouble. That union was too strong for steroid testing to be implemented without congress jumping in. That happened long before Selig became commissioner.

Oh God, really ? So MLB having no steriod policy, there being no oversight at all, and everyone from the owners to Selig to the grounds guy turning their head .... is the player's fault ? Really ?

Long before Selig was commish ? Holy poo. The big split happened in 1994 ... up till then things really weren't that bad. There were issues yeah, but both sides worked amicably. It was Selig and Fehr going at it that really exploded the rift and got the MLBPA their hard on to actively seek to stick it to the league. Sure, Selig himself would have been shot down by the Union if he had tried to simply slap a policy out there (which by the way the only thing the MLBPA ever outright said no to, was the random testing), but the man could have done SOMETHING. However, he instead turned a blind eye and pretended nothing was going on as a juiced up McGwire and Sosa saved baseball. That's his fault, not the players. The fact that he presided as commish (acting since 1992) during the entire "steriod era" and did absolutely nothing about it doesn't even blip on your radar ? The man allowing everything to happen is solely the players fault ? The man knew what was going on (let's be real here) and didn't even as much as say a word. He let it happen, didn't even make the attempt to do anything about the substance policy (actually, the lack of), and only moved (and then just to sell the player's down the river) when a federal drug bust implicated the guy he was riding to the cash barn at the time (Bonds).

I know we all throw out little insults all the time ... but man, you have to be really, really ignorant or really, really dumb to either blame the players or think that Selig wasn't as much at fault for the steriod issue in baseball. I'm not absolving the players. I just know better than to honestly think that there isn't an entire other party to blame for what happened. Seriously, baseball had NO TESTING ... what Selig just didn't know that for the first 15yrs on the job ? He missed that part of the Owner's handbook ? Please.

I don't recall Selig ever saying that Rose would get in once he apologized. The apology was a first step.

He didn't. He originally stated that he would allow Rose to be eligible for HOF voting, not "back in the game" or anything else. He essentially said that he'd allow baseball to decide Rose's fate.

[sahyder1]

The "purist" argument is crap. Why do these same people watch games on TV and not the radio like old times? Why don't these people wear shirt and ties to the ballpark? Lets abolish free agency while we're at it. Lets play only day games. Sports like everything else evolve with the times. It is a 30 team league....8 playoff teams is nothing outrageous.

To use your line "this isn't grade school," Sports are a business. That 2 team race was great for those 2 cities but for the rest of the division the season was over some time in June. Wildcard is there to put people in the seats....and that it does. I'd much rather have 5-6 teams be involved in a playoff race in September rather then it be decided in July.

99.9% of the people complaining about NCAA tournament will still watch it no matter how many times. NCAA Tournament is popular because of the pools and brackets associated with it. That will continue to be the case.

Oh God, really ? So MLB having no steriod policy, there being no oversight at all, and everyone from the owners to Selig to the grounds guy turning their head .... is the player's fault ? Really ?

Do you understand the concept behind Collective bargaining? Baseball couldn't negotiate similar stuff in the Vincent years either. Until congress got involved and weakened the MLBPA there was nothing Selig could have done. Heck, people like you would be complaining about more work stoppages had he taken a hard stance.

Uh, he could have not called the game

Like I mentioned before there would have been people expressing outrage if a pitcher had gotten hurt too. Teams pay these guys a ton of money for them to get hurt in a "mid-season EXHIBITION." I refuse to go up in arms over the home field thing because it is a non-issue for me. There is no fair way to do it unless they were doing neutral sites which obviously will never happen. Your Pro Bowl reasoning is crap and you know it since we know it is played on a neutral site every year.

You mentioned off days earlier.....if anything Selig has been trying to to reduce the off days. It is a TV issue. It is an issue with all of the leagues. The networks control most of the scheduling.

[HailtotheYo]

The "purist" argument is crap. Why do these same people watch games on TV and not the radio like old times? Why don't these people wear shirt and ties to the ballpark? Lets abolish free agency while we're at it. Lets play only day games. Sports like everything else evolve with the times. It is a 30 team league....8 playoff teams is nothing outrageous.

No, the purist stance is crap ... to you. Sorry but I'll take the feelings over people involved in the game rather than another fan. I'm pretty sure people still listen to the radio at times. Video might have killed the radio star, but radio itself isn't dead. In fact, there is an MLB Network Radio. So yeah, somebody out there is on the airwaves. Outside of that, we simply have a fundamentally different view on teams included in the playoff. However, the people on the other side of the fence than you aren't any less of a baseball fan because of it. I'm not denying that the WC rounds have provided great moments and memorable times in the league's history. I was also fine with those same moments when they were produced by the system before the WC.

The only reason an 8 team playoff doesn't seem outragous, is because the other American sports let in half the fucking league.

To use your line "this isn't grade school," Sports are a business. That 2 team race was great for those 2 cities but for the rest of the division the season was over some time in June. Wildcard is there to put people in the seats....and that it does. I'd much rather have 5-6 teams be involved in a playoff race in September rather then it be decided in July.

I eagerly await you showing any instances in which a pennant was decided in July. I'm guessing that'll take you a while. Off the top of my head, the earliest I know of is Sept 8th. And uh, nobody really had an issue with the system before it was changed. Baseball had done just fine for over a century.

and you've brought up another point about Selig. He's sold the fans down the river (as well as the players). Yeah, it is a business and I completely understand that. Good business however, goes much further than money. I mean, it was great for the business of baseball for Selig to sign the MLB Extra Innings contract with DirecTV ... but not such good business for the millions of out of market fans that have cable (which far outnumber the DirecTV subscribers), and can't watch their teams games. yeah, that's great fucking business. But hey, it got the league money and that's all that matters isn't it ?

[qoute]99.9% of the people complaining about NCAA tournament will still watch it no matter how many times. NCAA Tournament is popular because of the pools and brackets associated with it. That will continue to be the case.

Perhaps, but again if all you care about is raw numbers then we once again have a fundamental difference of opinion. Personally I only watch a couple of games each year out of the tourny. Sure, I have my bracket and I check the results but I don't really watch the tourny. I can promise you I'm not the only one. Of course people will continue to watch it because each year you have at a minimum 64 good sized fanbases interested. Strictly from a money standpoint there will always be attention on it. If you know how Vegas really works though, a substantially larger tournament will be much more of a headache for them than anything else. You're also going to find it much harder to sell 1st round match ups of Iona VS Texas A&M CC than you think it is. You're putting way too much stock in what the tourny currently is, as opposed to what exactly will be included if it where to expand that much.

Do you understand the concept behind Collective bargaining? Baseball couldn't negotiate similar stuff in the Vincent years either. Until congress got involved and weakened the MLBPA there was nothing Selig could have done. Heck, people like you would be complaining about more work stoppages had he taken a hard stance.

Please, stop thinking you know what I would feel about something. You don't have to assume, I'm pretty blunt with my opinions. You have no fucking clue what I'd think. Besides, are you saying you wouldn't be upset with work stoppages ? Nobody likes them buddy.

I understand just fine how CBA's work. I also understand the difference between the fucking Commish of baseball standing with his back to the issue and gladly pocketing the rewards (which he did) and at least making any attempt of any kind to get a rampant problem that he knew about under control (which he didn't). I guess the conept of "trying" is lost on you. Bud Selig did absolutely dick all. He didn't so much as raise the issue, attempt to talk about it, inquire about what kind of system the Union would discuss. He did nothing. There was plenty Bud could have done. Hell, he's a self serving prick ... at the very least he could have pressed the issue and thrown the honus on the MLBPA. He didn't even do that. He's the commissioner ... do you understand what his job is ? Under his guidance it is the job of the office of the commissioner to negotiate (among other things) labor. It's his damned job to do something about crap like this. Union is too strong my ass. Oh, and it was Vincent that did something about the drug issue by banning Steve Howe (it was later overturned, but the fact remains that Vincent did do something). Vincent actually was trying to work on something with drug testing but in 1990 he got derailed a bit by the owner's lockout of spring training.

When you're in the supermarket and you see a little kid spill shit in the aisle what do you think ? Is it "fucking little kid" or "good fucking job mom/dad" ?

Like I mentioned before there would have been people expressing outrage if a pitcher had gotten hurt too. Teams pay these guys a ton of money for them to get hurt in a "mid-season EXHIBITION." I refuse to go up in arms over the home field thing because it is a non-issue for me. There is no fair way to do it unless they were doing neutral sites which obviously will never happen. Your Pro Bowl reasoning is crap and you know it since we know it is played on a neutral site every year.

How exactly is the Pro Bowl analogy crap ? It's the exact same thing. An All-Star exhibition having a hand in deciding the championship of the sport. What does the neutral site have to do with it ? The All-Star game is alternated between AL/NL stadiums. You failed to mention how the teams directly involved with the WS determining where it was played wasn't fair or rational. The whole "run the risk of getting hurt" is crap if you want to get down too it. It's a lame excuse. If injury concern really was that big of a deal, the All Star game wouldn't be in the middle of the year and/or we wouldn't have it at all. Everybody knows the risks involved in playing in an AS game. And let's be honest. Exactly how many season ending/season altering/injuries that mattered have happened in the AS game ?

You mentioned off days earlier.....if anything Selig has been trying to to reduce the off days. It is a TV issue. It is an issue with all of the leagues. The networks control most of the scheduling.

Yes, extending the playoffs into November to try and nab ratings is trying to reduce the off days. No.

[sahyder1]

No, the purist stance is crap ... to you. Sorry but I'll take the feelings over people involved in the game rather than another fan. I'm pretty sure people still listen to the radio at times. Video might have killed the radio star, but radio itself isn't dead. In fact, there is an MLB Network Radio. So yeah, somebody out there is on the airwaves. Outside of that, we simply have a fundamentally different view on teams included in the playoff. However, the people on the other side of the fence than you aren't any less of a baseball fan because of it. I'm not denying that the WC rounds have provided great moments and memorable times in the league's history. I was also fine with those same moments when they were produced by the system before the WC.

Like I said...sports evolve. Wild Card has been nothing short of great for baseball. I don't care about the wildcard round. It is about having meaningful games in August and September. Just because a team doesn't get officially eliminated until September doesn't mean that their season wasn't over in July. It makes no sense for these teams to not have the wildcard. Attendance continues to go up despite ticket prices going up and the wild card is a huge part of that. Blue Jays have no shot at winning the division but they are going to benefit from an attendance bump over the summer (however minor) because from the looks of it they will be in contention for Wildcard come August. The purist argument is crap. I'm not saying radio broadcasts are fun....but their is no reason to listen to the game on radio. TV improved the broadcast experience. HD improved the broadcast experience.

I eagerly await you showing any instances in which a pennant was decided in July. I'm guessing that'll take you a while. Off the top of my head, the earliest I know of is Sept 8th. And uh, nobody really had an issue with the system before it was changed. Baseball had done just fine for over a century.

Like I mentioned above just because doesn't get officially eliminated doesn't mean that there season isn't over long before that. Heck, even the New York Yankees were playing in front of empty ballparks in 80s. People didn't have a problem with it because they didn't know any different. I don't know how you can possibly argue that 6-7 teams being in the race in September is a bad thing. Scoreboard watching is half the fun of following sports late in the season.

You are way off base on the Selig/steroids thing. Selig works for the owners. The topic of steroids testing did come up in 2002 and heck even back in '94 but the union was strong. Only way they could have gotten something done is if all of the owners decided to lockout. The players union wasn't going to budge on that until congress intervened. There are no ifs ands or buts about it. The MLBPA isn't the NFLPA. They've never been pushovers. They were united on that front and the owners were never going to lockout unless something dramatic happened. Until congress intervened Selig had no leverage to do anything about steroids testing.

When you're in the supermarket and you see a little kid spill shit in the aisle what do you think ? Is it "fucking little kid" or "good fucking job mom/dad" ?

Parents can flat out discipline a kid. They don't have to deal with the kids' union to come to an agreement on a punishment.

He didn't so much as raise the issue, attempt to talk about it, inquire about what kind of system the Union would discuss.

Uh...again pay attention. Anytime the subject was brought up by ANYONE the MLBPA made it clear that they would not accept any testing.

and you've brought up another point about Selig. He's sold the fans down the river (as well as the players). Yeah, it is a business and I completely understand that. Good business however, goes much further than money. I mean, it was great for the business of baseball for Selig to sign the MLB Extra Innings contract with DirecTV ... but not such good business for the millions of out of market fans that have cable (which far outnumber the DirecTV subscribers), and can't watch their teams games. yeah, that's great fucking business. But hey, it got the league money and that's all that matters isn't it ?

Baseball package is available on cable and it is also available on MLB.tv Selig's job is to get the most money for the league. NFL is exclusive with Direct TV because they took one large amount from them. It is a business. You're missing that point. They're job is to make money and they're doing a damn good job of it.

There's plenty of things to hate the MLB for (competitive balance one of them) but it is hard to argue that they've done a good job with ticket sales and TV revenue.

By the way hats off to the Blue Jays. Heck of a start they are off too. The young pitchers have been fantastic. It's a shame Halladay isn't on the team this year. What the hell has gotten into Jose Bautista?

Perhaps, but again if all you care about is raw numbers then we once again have a fundamental difference of opinion. Personally I only watch a couple of games each year out of the tourny. Sure, I have my bracket and I check the results but I don't really watch the tourny. I can promise you I'm not the only one. Of course people will continue to watch it because each year you have at a minimum 64 good sized fanbases interested. Strictly from a money standpoint there will always be attention on it. If you know how Vegas really works though, a substantially larger tournament will be much more of a headache for them than anything else. You're also going to find it much harder to sell 1st round match ups of Iona VS Texas A&M CC than you think it is. You're putting way too much stock in what the tourny currently is, as opposed to what exactly will be included if it where to expand that much.

You're off base again. TV ratings for the NCAA tournament don't agree with you. The amount big advertisers dish out for the NCAA tournament don't agree with you. Most people don't gamble in Vegas for the NCAA Tournament. It is office pools and pools among groups of friends. As far as the Vegas thing, the last thing Vegas wants is less games to gamble on. There were people who complained when NCAA went to 64 and 65 games too. Fact remains people like watching because it is easy to gamble on and people love the single elimination aspect of it.

[HailtotheYo]

Like I said...sports evolve. Wild Card has been nothing short of great for baseball. I don't care about the wildcard round. It is about having meaningful games in August and September. Just because a team doesn't get officially eliminated until September doesn't mean that their season wasn't over in July. It makes no sense for these teams to not have the wildcard. Attendance continues to go up despite ticket prices going up and the wild card is a huge part of that. Blue Jays have no shot at winning the division but they are going to benefit from an attendance bump over the summer (however minor) because from the looks of it they will be in contention for Wildcard come August. The purist argument is crap. I'm not saying radio broadcasts are fun....but their is no reason to listen to the game on radio. TV improved the broadcast experience. HD improved the broadcast experience.

You are putting WAAAAAAYYYYY too much into the Wild Card in terms of the attendance of baseball. Let's take a look at a little snapshot:

1987 52,011,506

1988 52,998,904

1989 55,173,096

1990 54,823,768

1991 56,813,760

1992 55,870,466

1993 70,257,938

1994 50,010,016 (wild card instituted but strike season/expansion Rockies and Marlins)

1995 50,469,236 (shortened season)

1996 60,097,381

1997 63,168,689

1998 70,601,147

1999 70,139,380

Now, 1994 and 1995 don't really count because of the strike. 1994 though saw two new clubs. So how exactly can you contribute the attendance bump to the Wild Card when the league didn't reach the same attendace numbers it had in the year before expansion and the WC was instituted until the 5th year it was in play. The league didn't surpass the expansion year attendance until after the 6th year of Wild Card play. Also, since the Wild Card has been introduced there have also been 19 new ballparks opened across the league. In the last 5 years or so we've seen a severe economic levelling of the playing field and a better overall competitive balance across the board. That goes further than the WC.

So how exactly can you contribute it solely to the Wild Card ? I don't see how anyone can actually measure the impact of the WC on attendance because of the other factors involved.

Oh, and while we might be from different generations, there are plenty of people that don't have to be glued to a TV in order to enjoy a sporting event. The radiocasts of sporting events are still largely followed. There are plenty of reasons to listen to the radiocast of an event. In some markets, the radiocast is better than the TV broadcast. Believe it or not, there are people out there that don't just sit on the couch and watch the game. They listen to it while doing something. Just because YOU don't feel there's a reason doesn't mean that there isn't one.

The Wild Card is an artificial creation to make something seem important just so the league can grab money. Selig doesn't give a shit about involving more teams/cities/fans longer into the season.

Like I mentioned above just because doesn't get officially eliminated doesn't mean that there season isn't over long before that. Heck, even the New York Yankees were playing in front of empty ballparks in 80s. People didn't have a problem with it because they didn't know any different. I don't know how you can possibly argue that 6-7 teams being in the race in September is a bad thing. Scoreboard watching is half the fun of following sports late in the season.

Please, stop trying so hard. The Yankees played in half empty ballparks in the 80's because they fucking sucked, period. People don't watch shit teams, ever. It doesn't matter if it's May or August. The Wild Card didn't invent scoreboard watching. People were doing it long before. More often than not there were plenty of teams alive late into the season even before the Wild Card. Oh God, people didn't know any different ? Seriously ? No, what people knew before was that the 6th and 7th (and on down the line for those in Wild Card contention) had no damned business being in the playoff race at all. All the Wild Card did was create a fake importance by lowering the standard of qualification.

You are way off base on the Selig/steroids thing. Selig works for the owners. The topic of steroids testing did come up in 2002 and heck even back in '94 but the union was strong. Only way they could have gotten something done is if all of the owners decided to lockout. The players union wasn't going to budge on that until congress intervened. There are no ifs ands or buts about it. The MLBPA isn't the NFLPA. They've never been pushovers. They were united on that front and the owners were never going to lockout unless something dramatic happened. Until congress intervened Selig had no leverage to do anything about steroids testing.

Selig is the damned CEO of baseball. There's no board of directors in Major League Baseball. There's the commish, and the commissioner's office. The owners vote in the commish yes. Now, Selig himself works for the owners because he was one. Hell, he headed the collusion and ousting of Fay Vincent, the commish that didn't bend over for the owners. You've got it twisted. The position of commissioner is above the owners. Selig though, slides the shorts down for them. There's a huge difference. It is the job of the commissioner (Selig) to do for the sport, not the owners or the players individually. He works for the sport. What you don't seem to graps, is that by simply being vocal about the issue, Selig would have been doing something. As I've stated before, there's a huge difference between turning your back to the problem and at the bare minimum being vocal about it. Yeah, Selig would have needed help to get something done. I've said that more than once. My point though, is that he turned his back and played dumb rather than attempt to fix a major problem that he knew existed. Hell, he could have met off the record or talked privately with Fehr. He could have done anything but he chose not too because he was lining his pockets.

Parents can flat out discipline a kid. They don't have to deal with the kids' union to come to an agreement on a punishment.

You apparently don't know how society works. If anybody doesn't like how you handle your kid they can call child protective services on you. It is then on you to prove you weren't doing anything wrong/excessive/overboard/etc. Yeah, there actually is an organization that acts much like a union for kids' rights/protection. Besides, you didn't answer the question. What's the first thought that comes to mind ?

Uh...again pay attention. Anytime the subject was brought up by ANYONE the MLBPA made it clear that they would not accept any testing.

Uh ... learn to read. The only thing the MLBPA ever said that they'd flat out not agree to, was random testing. Big difference.

Baseball package is available on cable and it is also available on MLB.tv Selig's job is to get the most money for the league. NFL is exclusive with Direct TV because they took one large amount from them. It is a business. You're missing that point. They're job is to make money and they're doing a damn good job of it.

Oh excuse me, you are right. Selig had signed the exclusive deal and fucked over the millions upon millions of fans but (among others) John Kerry spoke up about antitrust and other issues so Bud brought back the cable companies. That doesn't change the fact that he flipped the fans the bird and didn't give a damn. As for missing the point, I'm not. You're just trying to run the point into something else than we originally began discussing.

You're off base again. TV ratings for the NCAA tournament don't agree with you. The amount big advertisers dish out for the NCAA tournament don't agree with you. Most people don't gamble in Vegas for the NCAA Tournament. It is office pools and pools among groups of friends. As far as the Vegas thing, the last thing Vegas wants is less games to gamble on. There were people who complained when NCAA went to 64 and 65 games too. Fact remains people like watching because it is easy to gamble on and people love the single elimination aspect of it.

Uh, pay attention. I said you're confusing what it is now (the shit you just quoted about ratings) and what it will be should it expand substantially. That would be the whole point in saying that you highly overestimate the ease of selling an opening round match up of Iona and A&M Corpus Christi. It's much easier to sell Georgia Tech and Florida State. The opening games of a substantially expanded tournament will be the ones people listen to on the radio or over the net while at work, not the games people call in sick for.

Edited June 6, 2010 by HailtotheKing

[sahyder1]

The Wild Card is an artificial creation to make something seem important just so the league can grab money. Selig doesn't give a shit about involving more teams/cities/fans longer into the season.

You are clueless if you actually believe this line. Attendance took a hit in mid 90s because of the lockout. That doesn't mean that wild card didn't give it a bump. Just take a look at August/September attendance numbers from last few years now that people really are back. I don't understand why you're missing this concept. I don't understand your attitude towards less teams competing either. It makes no sense from any point of view. It makes no sense as a fan. It makes no sense for the business.

You make it sound like the 6th/7th best team in each league makes the playoffs. They don't. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with more teams being in the hunt for the playoffs late in the season. I didn't say the wildcard created scoreboard watching....I said it has made scoreboard watching that much more fun late in the season.

I don't think you understand the concept of a commissioner. In a labor dispute the commissioner works for the owners. Not the players. The owners pay his salary. The owners can vote to remove him. It works that way in EVERY sport.

Oh excuse me, you are right. Selig had signed the exclusive deal and fucked over the millions upon millions of fans but (among others) John Kerry spoke up about antitrust and other issues so Bud brought back the cable companies. That doesn't change the fact that he flipped the fans the bird and didn't give a damn. As for missing the point, I'm not. You're just trying to run the point into something else than we originally began discussing.

So what? It's his right. Every business has that right. Every major brand has signed an exclusive contract at some point. There was nothing stopping people from Direct TV. Local games are available on cable anyways. Pepsi signs exclusively with certain restaurant chains, Coke signs with others. That doesn't make them evil. It's business. Everyone about the age of 12 understands that. NFL is the biggest sports league here and they still have an exclusive agreement with Direct TV.

By the way, way to only cite attendance #s for late 90s when attendance was down because of 1994. Why not cite from 2007 and 2008 when almost 80 million people showed up at the ballparks? As for your comment about "level playing fields" do you understand that teams don't do salary dumps early in the season now because they have the wildcard option open? More teams utilizes July and August now to see whether they can stay in the wild card race when without it their season would be over much earlier.

As for the NCAA you can go check out opening round ratings too. They still crush anything that is scheduled against it. It'll always be the case whether is is Joe Shmo U or a Big East school. NCAA Tournament picks up even the casual fan. I can't take you seriously on that since by your own admission you only watch a couple of games. Uh....early round games are the ones people call out for because those games are on during the day. There is no need to call out for the later rounds because those games are mostly at night to begin with.

[HailtotheYo]

You are clueless if you actually believe this line. Attendance took a hit in mid 90s because of the lockout. That doesn't mean that wild card didn't give it a bump. Just take a look at August/September attendance numbers from last few years now that people really are back. I don't understand why you're missing this concept. I don't understand your attitude towards less teams competing either. It makes no sense from any point of view. It makes no sense as a fan. It makes no sense for the business.

You make it sound like the 6th/7th best team in each league makes the playoffs. They don't. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with more teams being in the hunt for the playoffs late in the season. I didn't say the wildcard created scoreboard watching....I said it has made scoreboard watching that much more fun late in the season.

I don't think you understand the concept of a commissioner. In a labor dispute the commissioner works for the owners. Not the players. The owners pay his salary. The owners can vote to remove him. It works that way in EVERY sport.

Wait a minute now. I'm clueless if I actually believe that line ? I'm sorry, it was you just a couple of posts ago that was talking about how it was Selig's job to make money for baseball. Now I'm clueless if I believe that's all he was worried about ? You can't play both sides of the coin sir.

I'm sorry, we just disagree on the more/less teams. I put a greater value on a system that allows a higher quality of playing field determining the champion. You don't mind a lesser one. It does make sense to those that would rather have the best possible teams playing for a championship. Lowering the standard to include the "best of the rest" doesn't float everyone's boat even if it does yours. Please, stop with the and all be all statements. Again, just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense at all. There are people that don't see things your way or agree with your point of view. I'm not the only one.

And uh, just what placed teams do you think are vying for the Wild Card spots ? The WC is the 4th best team in each league with the 5-8th or so being in "contention" .... Yeah, there is a healthy audience of sports that doesn't think that a team that far down the line should have a shot at the post-seaon. And I didn't say it was the 7/8 best teams in each league. I said it was the 7/8th best teams getting in, and they shouldn't be.

So what? It's his right. Every business has that right. Every major brand has signed an exclusive contract at some point. There was nothing stopping people from Direct TV. Local games are available on cable anyways. Pepsi signs exclusively with certain restaurant chains, Coke signs with others. That doesn't make them evil. It's business. Everyone about the age of 12 understands that. NFL is the biggest sports league here and they still have an exclusive agreement with Direct TV.

Nothing stopping people from DirecTV .... please, even you know that's a bullshit ass line. Local games ? Way to make a comment not at all about what I stated. The MLB Extra Innings is for out of market games smarty. Big difference between soft drinks and sports. Pepsi isn't the only choice for people that like sodas. Neither is coke. People that like pro baseball in the US only have MLB. And please, fuck right off with the passive insults. The NFL does have an exclusive with DirecTV ... and they've also had to provide something to cable (Redzone channel) to avoid the antitrust threats by cable. There's also the "cable exclusive" Sunday and Monday Night games (yeah you can view it on DirecTV but they're on cable channels). Close, but not the quite the same monster.

By the way, way to only cite attendance #s for late 90s when attendance was down because of 1994. Why not cite from 2007 and 2008 when almost 80 million people showed up at the ballparks? As for your comment about "level playing fields" do you understand that teams don't do salary dumps early in the season now because they have the wildcard option open? More teams utilizes July and August now to see whether they can stay in the wild card race when without it their season would be over much earlier.

Uh, I made a pretty specific point and quoted the relevant stats. The point I made was that even after the work stoppage, your magic WC wasn't showing this great attendance pop you were claiming. Even the with the WC and the great Home Run race, the year before the WC was introduced had a higher attendance across the league.

Ah, and now you're talking both ways. Love it. I believe you said "there's many things to hate about baseball (competative balance being one of them)" .... but now you're calling out me talking about the level playing field ? So that Wild Card option you're clamoring about has actually helped create one of the many things you said that there is to hate about baseball. Fucking awesome (Y)

As for the NCAA you can go check out opening round ratings too. They still crush anything that is scheduled against it. It'll always be the case whether is is Joe Shmo U or a Big East school. NCAA Tournament picks up even the casual fan. I can't take you seriously on that since by your own admission you only watch a couple of games. Uh....early round games are the ones people call out for because those games are on during the day. There is no need to call out for the later rounds because those games are mostly at night to begin with.

WTF ? Swing and miss, badly.

yeah, can't take me seriously because I only "watch" a couple games. Yes, completely blow over the fact that I also said that I pay attention to the tournament. If you could read and comprehend you'd understand that I'm not talking about the opening rounds as they currently are ... I'm talking about what they'll be should the tourny expand substantially. Since you love ranting about ratings, how's about you go find me the fucking ratings for those games ? Oh wait, you can't. THAT is what I'm talking about. WTF are you talking about later rounds ? That won't be the issue with an expanded bracket. Way to try and move the goalpost there. I'm talking about an opening round game that features an ACC/Big East/SEC school against an opening round game that would be pitting a Southland Conference school against a Big Sky school. With the same opening round scenario (when the shit do you think those games will be played with 98 or more teams) you are grossly over valuing that Southland VS Big Sky match up as opposed to what it is now. That casual fan you're talking about won't be nearly as interested because they REALLY won't know who or what the fuck. The general fan also won't be calling in or tuning because those will be the games you can "afford to miss" or just listen to in passing. The interest level that we see now won't be matched until the slag off games are done in the expanded tourny. Tina in the front office that likes the pretty colors to pick her bracket doesn't really pay any attention at all with the way it is now ... you really think she's going to with even more teams she doesn't give a shit about ?

You love ratings ... how are the ratings for those awesome "play in" games ?

[sahyder1]

Wait a minute now. I'm clueless if I actually believe that line ? I'm sorry, it was you just a couple of posts ago that was talking about how it was Selig's job to make money for baseball. Now I'm clueless if I believe that's all he was worried about ? You can't play both sides of the coin sir.

Yes, you are clueless because you are knocking the man for doing his damn job.

I'm sorry, we just disagree on the more/less teams. I put a greater value on a system that allows a higher quality of playing field determining the champion. You don't mind a lesser one. It does make sense to those that would rather have the best possible teams playing for a championship. Lowering the standard to include the "best of the rest" doesn't float everyone's boat even if it does yours. Please, stop with the and all be all statements. Again, just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense at all. There are people that don't see things your way or agree with your point of view. I'm not the only one.

People like you are in a very small minority now. Get off your damn high horse. There's enough talent in the MLB to support 8 playoff times. It's not like wildcard teams are some scrubs from AAA. It's a major league franchise. Wild Card has been great for baseball. Arguing otherwise is moronic at best. If you can't get the concept of having more meaningful games in August and September through your head there is nothing we can do for you.

And uh, just what placed teams do you think are vying for the Wild Card spots ? The WC is the 4th best team in each league with the 5-8th or so being in "contention" .... Yeah, there is a healthy audience of sports that doesn't think that a team that far down the line should have a shot at the post-seaon. And I didn't say it was the 7/8 best teams in each league. I said it was the 7/8th best teams getting in, and they shouldn't be.

Again you're wrong. The AL Wildcard team alone has usually been the 2nd best team in the MLB (whether it is the Yankees or the Red Sox).

Ah, and now you're talking both ways. Love it. I believe you said "there's many things to hate about baseball (competative balance being one of them)" .... but now you're calling out me talking about the level playing field ? So that Wild Card option you're clamoring about has actually helped create one of the many things you said that there is to hate about baseball. Fucking awesome

Obviously what I meant was a lack of competitive balance. The only shot someone like the Blue Jays has to get in the playoffs is through the playoffs because the financial setup that has always existed in the MLB is favorable to only a handful of teams.

Uh, I made a pretty specific point and quoted the relevant stats. The point I made was that even after the work stoppage, your magic WC wasn't showing this great attendance pop you were claiming. Even the with the WC and the great Home Run race, the year before the WC was introduced had a higher attendance across the league.

No...what you did was put low #s and completely ignore numbers that were 10 million people higher. Not 10,000.....10 million. A 5 year old can grasp this concept. Meaningful games later in the season mean people go to games. Otherwise they don't.

You love ratings ... how are the ratings for those awesome "play in" games ?

I can't find an exact link right now but I'm sure they are the #1 show on cable that particular night. ESPN puts a lot of hype work into it. The first round of the NCAA tournament kills everything else in the ratings. People watch the tournament...and will as long as there is a bracket involved. Whether it be 32 teams, 64, 96, 128,256,512.....

Yes, extending the playoffs into November to try and nab ratings is trying to reduce the off days. No.

[HailtotheYo]

Yes, you are clueless because you are knocking the man for doing his damn job.

Well this is pretty clear now. You haven't even bothered reading anything I've been discussing. I'm knocking the man for not doing his job.

People like you are in a very small minority now. Get off your damn high horse. There's enough talent in the MLB to support 8 playoff times. It's not like wildcard teams are some scrubs from AAA. It's a major league franchise. Wild Card has been great for baseball. Arguing otherwise is moronic at best. If you can't get the concept of having more meaningful games in August and September through your head there is nothing we can do for you.

I'm not the one on the high horse. I'm not the one acting high and mighty and pretending that my opinion is the end all be all. I'm not the one that has been speaking down to you because you differ in opinion. I'm not the one that has made statements such as "any real fan of baseall" and other bullshit. Don't get me confused with yourself.

The Wild Card teams are MLB franchises, no shit. So are the Pirates. I haven't actually ever denied the fact that more teams are in the race/have meaningful games during this entire conversation. Again, if you could read and comprehend you'd know that. But instead you just want to try and bully your way through your points and pretend I'm saying things I'm not. Uh, and "we" ... you're the only one talking guy. WTF, you speaking on behalf of every other person that is a fan of baseball ? THAT is being on a high horse buddy. What you have failed miserably at seeing, is that what I've been discussing about the WC is that it provides what you're discussing (more teams in contention etc) at the cost of diluting the quality of teams in the playoffs.

Again you're wrong. The AL Wildcard team alone has usually been the 2nd best team in the MLB (whether it is the Yankees or the Red Sox).

Well, it's semantics but ok. Theh Wildcard team is the 4th seeded team regardless. But, in the AL all that means is that a shitty division winner that has no business being in the playoffs, is in the playoffs by default rather than the fact that they're good enough. Same point stands. With the Wildcard, the 4th best team in each league has a shot at the world title. That's crap.

Although let's examine your point. The AL wild card team has been the 2nd best team in baseball exactly ONE time and it was Oakland in '01. (although in '97 and '07 the Yanks were 3rd best). Guess how many times the NL Wildcard was 2nd best in the league ?

You're flat out making shit up now.

Obviously what I meant was a lack of competitive balance. The only shot someone like the Blue Jays has to get in the playoffs is through the playoffs because the financial setup that has always existed in the MLB is favorable to only a handful of teams.

Blue Jays did just fine under the old system ... just saying. When were those World Series Titles again ? Ohhhh yeeeaahhh. And yeah, whoops of course that's what you meant.

No...what you did was put low #s and completely ignore numbers that were 10 million people higher. Not 10,000.....10 million. A 5 year old can grasp this concept. Meaningful games later in the season mean people go to games. Otherwise they don't.

Right, you know what I was doing. It was pretty clear with what I said, and then explained the 2nd time around. I didn't exclude anything. Specific point with specific stats quoted for it.

Regardless, rather than address the point I was bringing up (that even with the WC and the great HR race baseball didn't equal attendance of the year before the WC introduction until 7yrs later). That would be why I quoted the numbers I did genius. It showed what I was talking about. And of course, the 14 new ballparks had nothing to do with those numbers you're talking about though, right ? It was all the Wild Card. It just took people 7yrs to figure out how awesome it was.

You're also missing a pretty big fundamental point in those numbers. Even with the advent of your fanfuckingtastic Wildcard and all those meaningful games late into the year, it still took 7yrs for people to come out the park in the numbers they were the year before.

I can't find an exact link right now but I'm sure they are the #1 show on cable that particular night. ESPN puts a lot of hype work into it. The first round of the NCAA tournament kills everything else in the ratings. People watch the tournament...and will as long as there is a bracket involved. Whether it be 32 teams, 64, 96, 128,256,512.....

Oh, of course they were, since you know that fits what you're saying. Then again, there's a reason they put those games on Tuesday Night. I also love how you are pretending that these awesome numbers tell the whole story. Until this year, the Tourney ratings had been on a 4 year skid and it took flopping Duke into a 1 seed to help fix it. What, 96 teams was going to reverse that trend ?

[sahyder1]

I'm knocking the man for not doing his job.

No, you're knocking him for trying to make the most money he can for the league. That is his damn job. Growing the league. He's been doing that.

I haven't actually ever denied the fact that more teams are in the race/have meaningful games during this entire conversation

The entire basis of your conversation so far has been that there should be less teams competing for a championship. That's completely contradictory to what I have been saying.

What you have failed miserably at seeing, is that what I've been discussing about the WC is that it provides what you're discussing (more teams in contention etc) at the cost of diluting the quality of teams in the playoffs.

How does this statement make any sense? The current system is designed to get the best teams in the playoffs. Under the old system the 2nd best team in all of MLB could miss the playoffs altogether. How was that doing anyone any good? The AL Wildcard team from the AL East might not always get the 2nd most wins but they have usually been the 2nd best team. AL East teams beat up on each other while AL West and Central have generally been weak and easy for one team to dominate. I'm an Angels fan I can easily admit that for the majority of the past decade the two best teams in the AL have been the Yankees and the Red Sox.

Attendance was down in the late 90s because of 1994. It took a while for the fans to come back but you have to be completely ignorant to believe that the Wildcard doesn't put people in the seats late in the season.

Blue Jays did just fine under the old system ... just saying. When were those World Series Titles again ? Ohhhh yeeeaahhh. And yeah, whoops of course that's what you meant.

Go ahead....keep showing us how little you actually know about baseball. The Jays won under the old system because at the time they were spending a ridiculous amount on payroll. They wouldn't be competing for a championship right now if we went back to the old system. It's not that simple.

And of course, the 14 new ballparks had nothing to do with those numbers you're talking about though, right?

New ballparks generate early season buzz but they sit empty in the second half of the season if the team has no shot at the playoffs. Look at Citi Field last year. Mets played in front of half empty ballparks on a good day and that was in New York City....the biggest market in the world.

Then again, there's a reason they put those games on Tuesday Night.

Uh...they play it on Tuesday because the first round starts on Thursday. What do you want them to do? Play the play-in game on Sunday and then wait until Thursday to get the tournament going? Where would that move selection Sunday?

Does anyone know if ESPN has picked up the Nationals game for Tuesday? I know they are doing a special edition of Baseball Tonight but are they showing the game? Strasburg isn't the only big debut on Tuesday now. Marlins are calling up OF prospect Mike Stanton from AA. He already had 20 HRs in AA this year.

Edited June 7, 2010 by sahyder1

[naiwf]

Bryce Harper # 1 to the Nats. Drafted as an OF, not a C.

[HailtotheYo]

I'm knocking the man for not doing his job.

No, you're knocking him for trying to make the most money he can for the league. That is his damn job. Growing the league. He's been doing that.

Oh boy, you should change your name to Spin Doctor. While I've elaborated on that point, that was not the initial point I was after. I had merely used that as one of many points in the "Bud Selig Sucks" laundry list. You however, have traid to railroad the conversation into that one singularity.

I know it's hard to follow the bouncing ball, but even I can do it.

The entire basis of your conversation so far has been that there should be less teams competing for a championship. That's completely contradictory to what I have been saying.

No, not the entire converstaion. This is just in reference to the WC/no WC debate. Again, quit trying to state things as fact, that aren't.

How does this statement make any sense? The current system is designed to get the best teams in the playoffs. Under the old system the 2nd best team in all of MLB could miss the playoffs altogether. How was that doing anyone any good? The AL Wildcard team from the AL East might not always get the 2nd most wins but they have usually been the 2nd best team. AL East teams beat up on each other while AL West and Central have generally been weak and easy for one team to dominate. I'm an Angels fan I can easily admit that for the majority of the past decade the two best teams in the AL have been the Yankees and the Red Sox.

Pretty easily actually. The curren't system is designed to get more teams into the playoffs, not the best teams. The best teams in baseball aren't the 7th and 8th teams. Yet, in this system they're in. Your supposed 2nd best team in baseball could have missed the playoffs but off the top of my head I can only think of one time in my lifetime that they didn't (the Giants team I've already referenced).

With my obvious (according to you) lack of baseball knowledge, how is it that I know that baseball is cyclical and you apparently don't ? It wasn't THAT long ago that the AL West was bad ass. Yeah, lately the AL East has been rough but they haven't always been in the "WC Era." And (after actually going back and looking at the standgins from '95 till now, the AL East has only been better than the other two leagues a handful of years). Also, after actually going back and looking at the standings, I can see that you have very 'rose tinted glasses' for very recent baseball history ... your Yanks/Red Sox comment being the proof.

Attendance was down in the late 90s because of 1994. It took a while for the fans to come back but you have to be completely ignorant to believe that the Wildcard doesn't put people in the seats late in the season.

Ok, please, make the attempt to actually read what's being written down. For like, I dunno, the 600th time ... I'm not saying that the WC has zero value in terms of attendance. In fact, I've stated a few times that there's something to the WC in that regard. However, you're completely missing the point on what exactly it is that you're saying here. The attendance numbers I pointed out where in an attempt to get you to see it.

After the strike, WC was implemented. 6yrs after the strike, 6yrs with the WC, and even with (at the time) the greatest feel good season in baseball history with the HR race ... attendance STILL didn't reach what it did the year before the strike. But, here we are 16yrs later and you're advocating that the WC has drawn 10s of millions of fans a year to the ballparks. That's a flat out lie. It took the complete resurgance of the sport itself to get the people in the seats. I've also gone over the number of new ballparks and other things that have attributed to the renewed interest and crowds. You however, think that the WC magically has done this even though in conjunction with the great HR race, it didn't put the asses in the seats in the numbers that were there the year before it/the strike. But despite everything else since then ... it's the WC that's putting the asses in the seats. Right ... but there's a lot more too it than that.

Go ahead....keep showing us how little you actually know about baseball. The Jays won under the old system because at the time they were spending a ridiculous amount on payroll. They wouldn't be competing for a championship right now if we went back to the old system. It's not that simple.

LOL there it is. Yeah, you're the baseball Almanac here and the all knowing Jambi of MLB. You just got butt hurt because the very example you gave was thrown back in your face. How many times have the Blue Jays made the playoffs under the WC system ? How many times did they win the WS under the old system ? Yet, you say they wouldn't be competing now if it were still the old way. I'm sorry, but even under the WC systems the majority of the playoff/WS teams are big spenders ... just like the old days. Yet, now in this wonderful WC system that allows the Jays to compete for the playoffs ..... they're further off the pace than under that shitty old way. Awesome. I just find it funny that you're all about how the WC has allowed the Blue Jays to "compete for the playoffs now" .... when they won the World Series before .... but hey, I don't know shit.

New ballparks generate early season buzz but they sit empty in the second half of the season if the team has no shot at the playoffs. Look at Citi Field last year. Mets played in front of half empty ballparks on a good day and that was in New York City....the biggest market in the world.

Yeah, and the Mets have always otherwise had fantastic crowds .... sorry, that was just a little red-headed step child jab at the good 'ol Metropolitans. I actually like 'em.

Uh...they play it on Tuesday because the first round starts on Thursday. What do you want them to do? Play the play-in game on Sunday and then wait until Thursday to get the tournament going? Where would that move selection Sunday?

Uh, let's see how well I can pull being you off here. You obviously don't know anything about the NCAA Tournament ... there's three days between the 2nd round and the regionals .... why can't there be between the "who gets to get ass raped by the #1, #1 seed ?" game which is a joke anyway, and the actual first round ?

Selection Sunday ... wait wait wait ... are you saying you don't want to mess with the tradition of Selection Sunday ? bwhahahahahahahaaa

Anway, this has been all fun and everything but there's plenty more to baseball than this little discussion. I have a feeling this is about to degenerate into mud slinging as we've both already done some low brow already.

Does anyone know if ESPN has picked up the Nationals game for Tuesday? I know they are doing a special edition of Baseball Tonight but are they showing the game? Strasburg isn't the only big debut on Tuesday now. Marlins are calling up OF prospect Mike Stanton from AA. He already had 20 HRs in AA this year.

I'm not sure how that would work with MASN2 and MLBN already having it. I don't know the inner workings of regional/national deals and what can be done, but I do know that MASN2 already has the game.

[sahyder1]

No...you did knock him for trying to make the league money. No matter what list you put it in...it is still a stupid point since that is the man's job.

With my obvious (according to you) lack of baseball knowledge, how is it that I know that baseball is cyclical and you apparently don't ? It wasn't THAT long ago that the AL West was bad ass. Yeah, lately the AL East has been rough but they haven't always been in the "WC Era." And (after actually going back and looking at the standgins from '95 till now, the AL East has only been better than the other two leagues a handful of years). Also, after actually going back and looking at the standings, I can see that you have very 'rose tinted glasses' for very recent baseball history ... your Yanks/Red Sox comment being the proof.

11 out of the 15 wildcard times have been from the East. But yeah, if you can't grasp the concept of wildcard keeping teams in the playoff race and therefore putting people in the seats...there's nothing that we can do for you. You will remain lost on that fact.

Yeah, and the Mets have always otherwise had fantastic crowds .... sorry, that was just a little red-headed step child jab at the good 'ol Metropolitans. I actually like 'em.

....but they have a brand new ballpark!

I'm not sure how that would work with MASN2 and MLBN already having it. I don't know the inner workings of regional/national deals and what can be done, but I do know that MASN2 already has the game.

I didn't know that MLB Network had picked it up. That solves that then. For those of you in the D.C area MASN actually will have an hour long pre-game.

Uh, let's see how well I can pull being you off here. You obviously don't know anything about the NCAA Tournament ... there's three days between the 2nd round and the regionals .... why can't there be between the "who gets to get ass raped by the #1, #1 seed ?" game which is a joke anyway, and the actual first round ?

Uh...those off days are there for travel time as teams go to next destination. Your argument here is absurd. You make it sound like there's never sports played on weekdays. The game being played on Tuesday is not a negative.

On to other absurd things. I couldn't stop laughing listening to Mike Francesa today when he suggested with a straight face that the Jays/Mets should get together for a trade. Wells, Romero (plus one SP) for Pagan and a SP!

[HailtotheYo]

But yeah, if you can't grasp the concept of wildcard keeping teams in the playoff race and therefore putting people in the seats...there's nothing that we can do for you. You will remain lost on that fact.

LOL you are dense man. I think you're arguing just to argue at this point. I never said the WC didn't put any butts in the seats, but that is just isn't this magical 10s of millions worth of attendance you're saying it is.

Oh, and for the second time ... who's this "we" you keep referring too ?

....but they have a brand new ballpark!

Yup, and people went to it. Even in late August through the end of the season. After August 20th last year, the Mets drew over 36K in every home game.

boxscores with att .... not too many empty seats.

Uh...those off days are there for travel time as teams go to next destination. Your argument here is absurd. You make it sound like there's never sports played on weekdays. The game being played on Tuesday is not a negative.

So those all important play in guys don't deserve the travel time ? Holy shit man, I never said anything about there never being sports on weekdays. I never said being on Tuesday was a negative. Fuck you are dense. We were talking about ratings. They put the game on Tuesday because there's nothing on Tuesday Night.

OH, and so we don't mess with the sanctity of Selection Sunday ! But I thought sports changed ?

[sahyder1]

Bryce Harper # 1 to the Nats. Drafted as an OF, not a C.

If he's a half decent OF it probably is for the better given everything we've been hearing about his hitting.

Since tomorrow is the Strasburg start....who was the last baseball player that debuted with this hype?

Oh, and for the second time ... who's this "we" you keep referring too ?

The majority of baseball fans.

Yup, and people went to it. Even in late August through the end of the season. After August 20th last year, the Mets drew over 36K in every home game.

Seats that were sold early in the season when the team was expected to contend for a playoff spot. Ask anyone who lives in this area and watched them on TV every day. Ask a big Mets fan like Naiwf. The Mets played in front of empty ballparks all of last because no one was there. Had the Mets been contending....that ballpark would've been completely sold out.

So those all important play in guys don't deserve the travel time ? Holy shit man, I never said anything about there never being sports on weekdays. I never said being on Tuesday was a negative. Fuck you are dense. We were talking about ratings. They put the game on Tuesday because there's nothing on Tuesday Night.

OH, and so we don't mess with the sanctity of Selection Sunday ! But I thought sports changed ?

I'm not claiming that Selection Sunday is something special.....but it is not going anywhere. And like I mentioned before....why does it matter what day it is on? Someone can go pull up an article on it but I'm sure the ratings were at or near the top for the day just like the first round does.

[MalaCloudy Black]

On behalf of everyone else that cares about baseball, would you two take the dickwaving contest somewhere else? For fuck's sake.

[Lint]

Yes..please (Y)

[sahyder1]

So....this Strasburg can pitch. 4 Ks through 2. Absolute filthy stuff.

[livid]

Yeah, he's already hit 100 MPH a couple of times and his curve looks absolutely nasty.