The 2011/12 Gary Speed Memorial Thread

[Matt]

I'm intruiged as to which Man United players call Evra that, considering the bulk of the Man United players.....well, aren't from that culture at all.

Hernandez and... erm... Anderson?

[therockbox]

Ah Spain, that bastion of non racist behaviour. If its being used by players in England it'll stop based on this.

Fact is Suarez has admitted using a non acceptable term to refer to an opponent, then used ignorance as a defense, which it isn't.

Well, ignorance wasn't his defence, was it?

He admitted to using the word. If he knew it was offensive he'd have denied it, especially given the complete lack of support Evra received from his teammates and the officials. His defence was that it's a word used across the world by players from the same culture as him, and one that Evra's fellow Man United players also use to refer to him.

So what you're saying is that ignorance was his defense?

You really need to be deleting the text after the bit you've bolded to make that response work.

[Colly]

Ah Spain, that bastion of non racist behaviour. If its being used by players in England it'll stop based on this.

Fact is Suarez has admitted using a non acceptable term to refer to an opponent, then used ignorance as a defense, which it isn't.

Well, ignorance wasn't his defence, was it?

He admitted to using the word. If he knew it was offensive he'd have denied it, especially given the complete lack of support Evra received from his teammates and the officials. His defence was that it's a word used across the world by players from the same culture as him, and one that Evra's fellow Man United players also use to refer to him.

So what you're saying is that ignorance was his defense?

You really need to be deleting the text after the bit you've bolded to make that response work.

Not at all. His only defense is 'I didn't think it was offensive'. His defense is ignorance.

[Lineker]

Liverpool striker Luis Suarez will appeal against his Football Association punishment for racially abusing Patrice Evra, according to his lawyer.

Alejandro Balbi, who is also Suarez's agent, said his player was "convinced" the punishment would be reversed.

Suarez was handed an eight-game ban and £40,000 fine after he used "insulting words in reference to Manchester United defender Evra's colour".

"It seems to us absolutely out of proportion," Balbi said.

"It's one of the hardest sanctions handed down in English football.

"He [suarez] is firmly convinced this hard sanction can be reversed."

Speaking at a news conference in Uruguay capital Montevideo, Balbi said that it would be Liverpool's lawyers who made the appeal to the FA.

Suarez, who denied the allegations, has 14 days to launch his appeal against the decision. Should he do so, there is a possibility length of the ban could be increased.

The FA handed the sanctions to Suarez after a six-day hearing found he racially abused Evra in the 1-1 draw at Anfield on 15 October.

The Liverpool players warmed up for Wednesday night's game at Wigan wearing t-shirts in support of Suarez and also released a statement declaring their backing for the 24-year-old.

The Uruguayan Football Association has also offered Suarez and Liverpool whatever backing they need for an appeal, and Suarez has received support from Uruguay captain Diego Lugano.

Also, Peter Crouch has been burgled, again.

[therockbox]

Ah Spain, that bastion of non racist behaviour. If its being used by players in England it'll stop based on this.

Fact is Suarez has admitted using a non acceptable term to refer to an opponent, then used ignorance as a defense, which it isn't.

Well, ignorance wasn't his defence, was it?

He admitted to using the word. If he knew it was offensive he'd have denied it, especially given the complete lack of support Evra received from his teammates and the officials. His defence was that it's a word used across the world by players from the same culture as him, and one that Evra's fellow Man United players also use to refer to him.

So what you're saying is that ignorance was his defense?

You really need to be deleting the text after the bit you've bolded to make that response work.

Not at all. His only defense is 'I didn't think it was offensive'. His defense is ignorance.

Depending on the context it was used in, it isn't offensive.

[Colly]

Ah Spain, that bastion of non racist behaviour. If its being used by players in England it'll stop based on this.

Fact is Suarez has admitted using a non acceptable term to refer to an opponent, then used ignorance as a defense, which it isn't.

Well, ignorance wasn't his defence, was it?

He admitted to using the word. If he knew it was offensive he'd have denied it, especially given the complete lack of support Evra received from his teammates and the officials. His defence was that it's a word used across the world by players from the same culture as him, and one that Evra's fellow Man United players also use to refer to him.

So what you're saying is that ignorance was his defense?

You really need to be deleting the text after the bit you've bolded to make that response work.

Not at all. His only defense is 'I didn't think it was offensive'. His defense is ignorance.

Depending on the context it was used in, it isn't offensive.

Well unfortunately for Suarez an independent tribunal have decided it is, so now he knows.

[therockbox]

God bless independent tribunals, always so competent and just.

[Hobo]

Had Suarez been found innocent of saying a word that sounds like negro by anyone (when he admits saying) - the anti-racism groups would've been up in arms. Cultural differences be damned.

[-A-]

Depending on the context it was used in, it isn't offensive.

The context is as part of an argument between two competitors on a football pitch. Is it offensive? If it's acceptable to Suarez but not to Evra, is it offensive? The entire purpose of anti-racism measures is to protect people from the feeling of being singled out for vitriol because of your race. Suarez's intentions are irrelevant because Evra doesn't know how many black friends Suarez has or how upstanding he is.

Again, 'black' is not offensive, but if you call someone a 'black twat' on a football pitch you will be punished infinitely worse than someone who simply says 'you twat.'

[Hobo]

But what of the allegations that Evra called Suarez a Sudaca - which is offensive to Suarez? Shouldn't he also receive some kind of punishment because he clearly had to know that that is a derogatory term in Suarez's culture?

[therockbox]

Depending on the context it was used in, it isn't offensive.

The context is as part of an argument between two competitors on a football pitch. Is it offensive? If it's acceptable to Suarez but not to Evra, is it offensive? The entire purpose of anti-racism measures is to protect people from the feeling of being singled out for vitriol because of your race. Suarez's intentions are irrelevant because Evra doesn't know how many black friends Suarez has or how upstanding he is.

Again, 'black' is not offensive, but if you call someone a 'black twat' on a football pitch you will be punished infinitely worse than someone who simply says 'you twat.'

Whilst it's all hearsay, the suggestion is that the conversation went something like;

Evra: Don't touch me, Sudaca (South American)

Suarez: Porque, Negro/Negrito?

If that's true then he's not called Evra a 'black twat', or the Spanish equivalent.

The FA and Evra have both said they don't believe Suarez is racist, and an 8 game ban for what, at worst, seems like a linguistic misunderstanding between two players from different footballing cultures seems incredibly excessive.

[-A-]

But there's been no substantiation of this claim that Evra said that? As far as I can see it's only a claim that's been made on Liverpool fan sites? I know we live in a world where Suarez can be lauded for the fact that he didn't lie about saying something racist, but it's his responsibility to report anything like that.

TRB, you just cannot say 'it's all hearsay, but imagine this is how the conversation went...' We don't know, so trying to make any kind of judgement of wordings or misunderstandings from a made up exchange is pointless.

EDIT: And LFC have already made misleading and potentially libellous claims about Evra in their initial statement, so I trust nothing that comes from their PR department.

Edited December 22, 2011 by -A-

[Lineker]

1625 FOOTBALL: Manchester City and Manchester City Council confirm that planning approval for City's new training campus has been granted.

[therockbox]

But there's been no substantiation of this claim that Evra said that? As far as I can see it's only a claim that's been made on Liverpool fan sites? I know we live in a world where Suarez can be lauded for the fact that he didn't lie about saying something racist, but it's his responsibility to report anything like that.

TRB, you just cannot say 'it's all hearsay, but imagine this is how the conversation went...' We don't know, so trying to make any kind of judgement of wordings or misunderstandings from a made up exchange is pointless.

That conversation was reported by Henry Winter. I can't find the article but it's referred to in the entry at 15:30 here, I'll try and find the original.

I'm guessing the bit about the 'potentially libellous...' claim is the bit about waiting for Evra to be charged? It's interesting the club said Evra had admitted to using the term in his written evidence, and there's no way a statement like that would have been released without a lawyer taking at least a glance over it.

It's ridiculous that the FA can wait until the middle of January before releasing the evidence/case files. Should be done at the same time as the verdict is announced.

[Hobo]

If the allegation were true about Evra, then I would expect he should be punished in a similar manner. If it's not true, it's then fair enough. I maintain that the whole thing is much less cut and dried than that sounds racist so it is. That's why people get in trouble for using the word niggardly.

The whole thing is a mirky mess. *If* Suarez is being punished for a cultural misunderstanding then it does seem rather a dangerous precedent. Yes, racism is horrible. It's also horrible for Suarez because this is going to stick to him more than likely if he didn't mean any offense. Even if on appeal he shown on appeal to be innocent or just a victim of not being aware of cultural weight that has been put on a word because he himself doesn't speak English fluently.

[Lineker]

Evra has been shit recently, being banned is a blessing in disguise waiting to happen

[-A-]

I'm guessing the bit about the 'potentially libellous...' claim is the bit about waiting for Evra to be charged? It's interesting the club said Evra had admitted to using the term in his written evidence, and there's no way a statement like that would have been released without a lawyer taking at least a glance over it.

No, I was talking about the bit where they implied that Evra has a history of making claims of racism that have been disproved. This was the incident at Stamford Bridge when Mike Phelan said he heard a Chelsea groundskeeper racially abuse Evra. Evra's claim was that the groundsman had been rude to him and drove his lawnmower towards him aggressively (or some shit.) He didn't say anything about racism, that came from Phelan. This story has been morphed into 'Evra cries wolf all the time!'

It's ridiculous that the FA can wait until the middle of January before releasing the evidence/case files. Should be done at the same time as the verdict is announced.

Agreed. It's hard to imagine that there's some sort of time-sensitive reason why they can't release the details. It's basic testimony from a few footballers, not national security.

[therockbox]

I maintain that the whole thing is much less cut and dried than that sounds racist so it is.

This is basically it for me as well. The FA/panel haven't dealt with this very well at all. It's the case and punishment that's going to set the precedent for all future cases like this, so they needed to be as open and transparent as possible. The evidence and reasons for the conclusion they arrived at should have been released with the verdict, or at least a couple of days afterwards. Instead the Daily Mirror can run headlines like 'RACIST' on their back page, even though the FA have said Suarez isn't, and most people have already made up their mind about what happened without actually knowing the intricacies of the case.

edit: Henry Winter article.

The FA also said during that incident that they found Evra's account of events to be 'exaggerated and unreliable.'

[-A-]

The whole thing is a mirky mess. *If* Suarez is being punished for a cultural misunderstanding then it does seem rather a dangerous precedent.

No, it's an awesome precedent. If Evra felt threatened because of his race then Suarez did something wrong. It's his responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen and referring to someone's skin colour in any way as part of an argument is pretty obviously wrong, even if the word you use has no racist connotations whatsoever.

There's a misunderstanding over whether this is declaring Suarez as racist or not. There is no law that governs what someone thinks or what crazy stuff goes through their head. There are probably passionate racists who believe some horrible things but never act on them or abuse anyone. That's not something that should be legistlated against, especially because what runs through your head affects no-one else. On the other hand, if someone believes that they aren't racist but says something which is clearly likely to cause offence based on skin colour, then they are guilty of putting another person in a horrible position. If a tribunal later sees evidence of Suarez not being racist and having lots of black friends then that doesn't change how Evra felt at that moment in time.

[stokeriño]

So football is making me switch over from Wrath of Khan halfway through to watch a match that will probably see a poor result for Chelsea and make me miserable just a day or two before Christmas.

Football: WTF, right?