EWR 2012 Stats Update: July ***PLEASE USE SPOILER TAGS***

[Guest Team 720]

Do you think Davey Richards would get a response out of them? Probably not. We can't just base every level of overness based on what the casual fan will respond to. If he were released today and were to go back onto the indies he would be more than over enough to main event a cult-level promotion, 66 being perfect for that.

Moxley may have no been the basis of a promotion, but just off of his skill and character alone he has created a very considerable buzz. I haven't seen a wrestling forum where he isn't a subject of excitement concerning his eventual debut.

Why not? This really doesn't make sense to me. While he was in ROH nobody had any objection to him being at (if memory serves me correctly) 68. So the second he signs a contract he automatically loses 15 points of overness? That doesn't make sense. In real life that would only make him MORE popular. I understand lowering his overness just enough so he can start the game and remain in developmental at 66, but any lower is ridiculous.

And my ultimate rebuttle is this and is bolded, underlined and italizied: Does it make any sense why a guy that is NOT ON TV FOR WWE more over than lower guys on the roster WHO ARE??????0

You can't tell me if Bo Dallas, Dean Ambrose, Kassius Ohno, Richie Steamboat, Seth Rollins just so happened to show up on RAW or SmackDown next week that they will be as over as Curt Hawkins, Darren Young, Epico, Jei Uso, Jimmy Uso, Michael McGuillicutty, Primo, Titus O'Neil, Trent Barretta, Tyler Reks or Yoshi Tastu. You cannot tell me that even IF these guys were to debut in the Northeast, they would get the reaction. Taz at 2000 Royal Rumble was huge because Taz was probably as over as any ECW guy could be that was not named Rob Van Dam was at that point. COULD Ambrose, Cesaro, Ohno and even Rollins be dropped and return to their glory on the indpendents in the 50's YES they can be upper midcard which I would say at the point they were hired they were. Cesaro and Ohno could borderline main event as a tag team and Ambrose never even main evented ONCE in DG-USA. CZW he was world champion when they were borderline regional which in the 50's HE COULD.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Team 720

[kdcastles]

Do you think Davey Richards would get a response out of them? Probably not. We can't just base every level of overness based on what the casual fan will respond to. If he were released today and were to go back onto the indies he would be more than over enough to main event a cult-level promotion, 66 being perfect for that.

Moxley may have no been the basis of a promotion, but just off of his skill and character alone he has created a very considerable buzz. I haven't seen a wrestling forum where he isn't a subject of excitement concerning his eventual debut.

Why not? This really doesn't make sense to me. While he was in ROH nobody had any objection to him being at (if memory serves me correctly) 68. So the second he signs a contract he automatically loses 15 points of overness? That doesn't make sense. In real life that would only make him MORE popular. I understand lowering his overness just enough so he can start the game and remain in developmental at 66, but any lower is ridiculous.

And my ultimate rebuttle is this and is bolded, underlined and italizied: Does it make any sense why a guy that is NOT ON TV FOR WWE more over than lower guys on the roster WHO ARE??????0

You can't tell me if Bo Dallas, Dean Ambrose, Kassius Ohno, Richie Steamboat, Seth Rollins just so happened to show up on RAW or SmackDown next week that they will be as over as Curt Hawkins, Darren Young, Epico, Jei Uso, Jimmy Uso, Michael McGuillicutty, Primo, Titus O'Neil, Trent Barretta, Tyler Reks or Yoshi Tastu. You cannot tell me that even IF these guys were to debut in the Northeast, they would get the reaction. Taz at 2000 Royal Rumble was huge because Taz was probably as over as any ECW guy could be that was not named Rob Van Dam was at that point. COULD Ambrose, Cesaro, Ohno and even Rollins be dropped and return to their glory on the indpendents in the 50's YES they can be upper midcard which I would say at the point they were hired they were. Cesaro and Ohno could borderline main event as a tag team and Ambrose never even main evented ONCE in DG-USA. CZW he was world champion when they were borderline regional which in the 50's HE COULD.

720 is correct. There is a problem with overness in this game. When someone gets a great reaction at a PWG show, some on this board alll the sudden want to put that guy in the lower to mid 60's, when lower to mid 60's should be midcarders in global companies. I also don't believe that someone who main events a PWG showis that well known by the casual fan. The casual fan watches WWE only. They don't go out and search for great indy wrestling. We are all apart of the IWC (internet wrestling community) and we have our biases. I love Hero. He's one of my favorites, but he's not over with the bulk of wrestling fans in North America. Casual fans don't go to PWG, Shimmer, DG-USA, or CZW shows, therefore, those guys shouldn't be as over as midcard WWE guys.

[MaSc]

Do you think Davey Richards would get a response out of them? Probably not. We can't just base every level of overness based on what the casual fan will respond to. If he were released today and were to go back onto the indies he would be more than over enough to main event a cult-level promotion, 66 being perfect for that.

Moxley may have no been the basis of a promotion, but just off of his skill and character alone he has created a very considerable buzz. I haven't seen a wrestling forum where he isn't a subject of excitement concerning his eventual debut.

Why not? This really doesn't make sense to me. While he was in ROH nobody had any objection to him being at (if memory serves me correctly) 68. So the second he signs a contract he automatically loses 15 points of overness? That doesn't make sense. In real life that would only make him MORE popular. I understand lowering his overness just enough so he can start the game and remain in developmental at 66, but any lower is ridiculous.

And my ultimate rebuttle is this and is bolded, underlined and italizied: Does it make any sense why a guy that is NOT ON TV FOR WWE more over than lower guys on the roster WHO ARE??????0

You can't tell me if Bo Dallas, Dean Ambrose, Kassius Ohno, Richie Steamboat, Seth Rollins just so happened to show up on RAW or SmackDown next week that they will be as over as Curt Hawkins, Darren Young, Epico, Jei Uso, Jimmy Uso, Michael McGuillicutty, Primo, Titus O'Neil, Trent Barretta, Tyler Reks or Yoshi Tastu. You cannot tell me that even IF these guys were to debut in the Northeast, they would get the reaction. Taz at 2000 Royal Rumble was huge because Taz was probably as over as any ECW guy could be that was not named Rob Van Dam was at that point. COULD Ambrose, Cesaro, Ohno and even Rollins be dropped and return to their glory on the indpendents in the 50's YES they can be upper midcard which I would say at the point they were hired they were. Cesaro and Ohno could borderline main event as a tag team and Ambrose never even main evented ONCE in DG-USA. CZW he was world champion when they were borderline regional which in the 50's HE COULD.

If WWE would release Hero, CC or Black they were still Stars at ROH or DGUSA... but nobody at ROH, DGUSA, PWG cares about Darren Young, Michael McGuillicutty or Titus O'Neill.

720 is correct. There is a problem with overness in this game. When someone gets a great reaction at a PWG show, some on this board alll the sudden want to put that guy in the lower to mid 60's, when lower to mid 60's should be midcarders in global companies. I also don't believe that someone who main events a PWG showis that well known by the casual fan. The casual fan watches WWE only. They don't go out and search for great indy wrestling. We are all apart of the IWC (internet wrestling community) and we have our biases. I love Hero. He's one of my favorites, but he's not over with the bulk of wrestling fans in North America. Casual fans don't go to PWG, Shimmer, DG-USA, or CZW shows, therefore, those guys shouldn't be as over as midcard WWE guys.

A lot of the WWE Midcard Guys would not be that over in ROH....

Edited July 18, 2012 by MaSc

[Guest Team 720]

Do you think Davey Richards would get a response out of them? Probably not. We can't just base every level of overness based on what the casual fan will respond to. If he were released today and were to go back onto the indies he would be more than over enough to main event a cult-level promotion, 66 being perfect for that.

Moxley may have no been the basis of a promotion, but just off of his skill and character alone he has created a very considerable buzz. I haven't seen a wrestling forum where he isn't a subject of excitement concerning his eventual debut.

Why not? This really doesn't make sense to me. While he was in ROH nobody had any objection to him being at (if memory serves me correctly) 68. So the second he signs a contract he automatically loses 15 points of overness? That doesn't make sense. In real life that would only make him MORE popular. I understand lowering his overness just enough so he can start the game and remain in developmental at 66, but any lower is ridiculous.

And my ultimate rebuttle is this and is bolded, underlined and italizied: Does it make any sense why a guy that is NOT ON TV FOR WWE more over than lower guys on the roster WHO ARE??????0

You can't tell me if Bo Dallas, Dean Ambrose, Kassius Ohno, Richie Steamboat, Seth Rollins just so happened to show up on RAW or SmackDown next week that they will be as over as Curt Hawkins, Darren Young, Epico, Jei Uso, Jimmy Uso, Michael McGuillicutty, Primo, Titus O'Neil, Trent Barretta, Tyler Reks or Yoshi Tastu. You cannot tell me that even IF these guys were to debut in the Northeast, they would get the reaction. Taz at 2000 Royal Rumble was huge because Taz was probably as over as any ECW guy could be that was not named Rob Van Dam was at that point. COULD Ambrose, Cesaro, Ohno and even Rollins be dropped and return to their glory on the indpendents in the 50's YES they can be upper midcard which I would say at the point they were hired they were. Cesaro and Ohno could borderline main event as a tag team and Ambrose never even main evented ONCE in DG-USA. CZW he was world champion when they were borderline regional which in the 50's HE COULD.

If WWE would release Hero, CC or Black they were still Stars at ROH or DGUSA... but nobody at ROH, DGUSA, PWG cares about Darren Young, Michael McGuillicutty or Titus O'Neill.

720 is correct. There is a problem with overness in this game. When someone gets a great reaction at a PWG show, some on this board alll the sudden want to put that guy in the lower to mid 60's, when lower to mid 60's should be midcarders in global companies. I also don't believe that someone who main events a PWG showis that well known by the casual fan. The casual fan watches WWE only. They don't go out and search for great indy wrestling. We are all apart of the IWC (internet wrestling community) and we have our biases. I love Hero. He's one of my favorites, but he's not over with the bulk of wrestling fans in North America. Casual fans don't go to PWG, Shimmer, DG-USA, or CZW shows, therefore, those guys shouldn't be as over as midcard WWE guys.

A lot of the WWE Midcard Guys would not be that over in ROH....

So they don't goto RoH, they would go else where and be stars. Look at Matt Hardy, he headlines for PWS and Extreme Rising. And who's to say that RoH would not be interested in any current WWE guys. they may be it is just not known. Hell TNA may be interested in the guys and put them in their mid card programs too.

edit:

Do you think Davey Richards would get a response out of them? Probably not. We can't just base every level of overness based on what the casual fan will respond to. If he were released today and were to go back onto the indies he would be more than over enough to main event a cult-level promotion, 66 being perfect for that.

Moxley may have no been the basis of a promotion, but just off of his skill and character alone he has created a very considerable buzz. I haven't seen a wrestling forum where he isn't a subject of excitement concerning his eventual debut.

Why not? This really doesn't make sense to me. While he was in ROH nobody had any objection to him being at (if memory serves me correctly) 68. So the second he signs a contract he automatically loses 15 points of overness? That doesn't make sense. In real life that would only make him MORE popular. I understand lowering his overness just enough so he can start the game and remain in developmental at 66, but any lower is ridiculous.

And my ultimate rebuttle is this and is bolded, underlined and italizied: Does it make any sense why a guy that is NOT ON TV FOR WWE more over than lower guys on the roster WHO ARE??????0

You can't tell me if Bo Dallas, Dean Ambrose, Kassius Ohno, Richie Steamboat, Seth Rollins just so happened to show up on RAW or SmackDown next week that they will be as over as Curt Hawkins, Darren Young, Epico, Jei Uso, Jimmy Uso, Michael McGuillicutty, Primo, Titus O'Neil, Trent Barretta, Tyler Reks or Yoshi Tastu. You cannot tell me that even IF these guys were to debut in the Northeast, they would get the reaction. Taz at 2000 Royal Rumble was huge because Taz was probably as over as any ECW guy could be that was not named Rob Van Dam was at that point. COULD Ambrose, Cesaro, Ohno and even Rollins be dropped and return to their glory on the indpendents in the 50's YES they can be upper midcard which I would say at the point they were hired they were. Cesaro and Ohno could borderline main event as a tag team and Ambrose never even main evented ONCE in DG-USA. CZW he was world champion when they were borderline regional which in the 50's HE COULD.

720 is correct. There is a problem with overness in this game. When someone gets a great reaction at a PWG show, some on this board alll the sudden want to put that guy in the lower to mid 60's, when lower to mid 60's should be midcarders in global companies. I also don't believe that someone who main events a PWG showis that well known by the casual fan. The casual fan watches WWE only. They don't go out and search for great indy wrestling. We are all apart of the IWC (internet wrestling community) and we have our biases. I love Hero. He's one of my favorites, but he's not over with the bulk of wrestling fans in North America. Casual fans don't go to PWG, Shimmer, DG-USA, or CZW shows, therefore, those guys shouldn't be as over as midcard WWE guys.

I forgot ROH went National in the game pretty recently so they would be midcarders. Still kd hit the several facts on the head. SHIMMER, DG-USA, CZW, PWG and RoH guys can and will get treated as Ryback fodder in WWE and get pops from guys like us while every kid in the arena is cheering for Ryback to take off their heads. Any guy from developmental (except for cases of Jinder Mahal, Alberto Del Rio, Mason Ryan and Anotonio Cesaro have been on NXT either in the old style or the current repacked FCW.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Team 720

[Skummy]

Rather than debating the abstract notion of "overness" as it pertains to the real world, and actually look at how it works as a mechanic to drive EWR as a game?

Yes, Chris Hero could main event a ROH show tomorrow. But no, he would not be in the upper midcard were he to debut in WWE tomorrow. And his overness needs to accurately reflect that in-game. If that means his overness drops slightly due to being in development, then so be it.

[MaSc]

Do you think Davey Richards would get a response out of them? Probably not. We can't just base every level of overness based on what the casual fan will respond to. If he were released today and were to go back onto the indies he would be more than over enough to main event a cult-level promotion, 66 being perfect for that.

Moxley may have no been the basis of a promotion, but just off of his skill and character alone he has created a very considerable buzz. I haven't seen a wrestling forum where he isn't a subject of excitement concerning his eventual debut.

Why not? This really doesn't make sense to me. While he was in ROH nobody had any objection to him being at (if memory serves me correctly) 68. So the second he signs a contract he automatically loses 15 points of overness? That doesn't make sense. In real life that would only make him MORE popular. I understand lowering his overness just enough so he can start the game and remain in developmental at 66, but any lower is ridiculous.

And my ultimate rebuttle is this and is bolded, underlined and italizied: Does it make any sense why a guy that is NOT ON TV FOR WWE more over than lower guys on the roster WHO ARE??????0

You can't tell me if Bo Dallas, Dean Ambrose, Kassius Ohno, Richie Steamboat, Seth Rollins just so happened to show up on RAW or SmackDown next week that they will be as over as Curt Hawkins, Darren Young, Epico, Jei Uso, Jimmy Uso, Michael McGuillicutty, Primo, Titus O'Neil, Trent Barretta, Tyler Reks or Yoshi Tastu. You cannot tell me that even IF these guys were to debut in the Northeast, they would get the reaction. Taz at 2000 Royal Rumble was huge because Taz was probably as over as any ECW guy could be that was not named Rob Van Dam was at that point. COULD Ambrose, Cesaro, Ohno and even Rollins be dropped and return to their glory on the indpendents in the 50's YES they can be upper midcard which I would say at the point they were hired they were. Cesaro and Ohno could borderline main event as a tag team and Ambrose never even main evented ONCE in DG-USA. CZW he was world champion when they were borderline regional which in the 50's HE COULD.

If WWE would release Hero, CC or Black they were still Stars at ROH or DGUSA... but nobody at ROH, DGUSA, PWG cares about Darren Young, Michael McGuillicutty or Titus O'Neill.

720 is correct. There is a problem with overness in this game. When someone gets a great reaction at a PWG show, some on this board alll the sudden want to put that guy in the lower to mid 60's, when lower to mid 60's should be midcarders in global companies. I also don't believe that someone who main events a PWG showis that well known by the casual fan. The casual fan watches WWE only. They don't go out and search for great indy wrestling. We are all apart of the IWC (internet wrestling community) and we have our biases. I love Hero. He's one of my favorites, but he's not over with the bulk of wrestling fans in North America. Casual fans don't go to PWG, Shimmer, DG-USA, or CZW shows, therefore, those guys shouldn't be as over as midcard WWE guys.

A lot of the WWE Midcard Guys would not be that over in ROH....

So they don't goto RoH, they would go else where and be stars. Look at Matt Hardy, he headlines for PWS and Extreme Rising. And who's to say that RoH would not be interested in any current WWE guys. they may be it is just not known. Hell TNA may be interested in the guys and put them in their mid card programs too.

Sorry...diagree...Matt Hardy & Co. appears at PWS as Special Attraction once or twice a year. It is similar to Hero's last Appearances at ROH. A Special Attraction. No Regular, No Main Eventer!

And Matt Hardy isn't Epico, Young or O'Neill & Co. Look at the guys that were fired in the last few years Luke Gallows, Cliff Compton, Masters, Eugene, Shad, Michael Tarver and so on....None of these guys would be or has headline a show for ROH, PWG, DGUSA or CZW. Hero, CC, Rollins & Co. would like Low-Ki, Colt Cabana or Daniel Bryan did (in 2010)

TNA also rarely takes these guys under contract.

PWS and Extreme Rising are a different kind of Wrestling Promotions. They are specialized to bring back old stars. IMO a different Story.

PS: Sorry for my bad English. I'm from Germany x)

Edited July 18, 2012 by MaSc

[Bill1996]

What I propose: anyone who is added to developmental from the indies must have their overness (if higher than 66) lowered to 66 in order to fit the game regulations. They shouldn't have their overness lowered for any reason aside from that right off the bat like Hero's evidently was. As I explained above, he has a high level of indy overness that doesn't just disappear the second he gets hired. I look at it as a basis: if Damien Sandow got released now would he be main eventing ROH, DG-USA, PWG, etc? Probably not. Would Hero? Yes. We can't let WWE's overness ladder be the only thing we consider. Is it perfect? No. But this game is very simplistic in nature, just like with its brawl/speed measurement, and the only thing we can do with it is what makes the most sense and makes gameplay most fun. If you are playing strictly as WWE it is more realistic to lower Hero's overness to the 40s or 50s, as well as all developmental/former indy stars, but when you have 30+ other promotions to consider you can't let that be your only measurement.

Rather than debating the abstract notion of "overness" as it pertains to the real world, and actually look at how it works as a mechanic to drive EWR as a game?

Yes, Chris Hero could main event a ROH show tomorrow. But no, he would not be in the upper midcard were he to debut in WWE tomorrow. And his overness needs to accurately reflect that in-game. If that means his overness drops slightly due to being in development, then so be it.

These two quotes pretty much sum up my opinion on how overness should be looked at in EWR.

IMO, too often, if someone gets a good reaction on one episode of RAW, people are then clamoring to raise his/her overness based on that. We need to make sure that the stats given work with the in-game mechanics. Naturally, WWE workers are going to get more discussion and debate because they have multiple shows to showcase their talent and will most likely have more eyeballs watching. As someone else said, most people aren't going to go out of their way to watch the ROH's, CZW's, DGUSA/EVOLVE's and Shimmer's of the wrestling world. As a result, there are less opinions and debate/discussion on those promotions.

But, again, making sure everything works and makes sense within the confines of the game should take priority. After all, we're going for realism within the game.

Regarding Kris' post on lowering overness to 66 for workers who are higher than 66 that sign with WWE, I would actually say they should be lowered to 63... Reason being, that will give them a few months in game to "develop" before you start hearing them bitch about being in Development... I can't think of many workers who were only in WWE DEV for one month before being called up.

For anyone interested, here is the Global "Card Position Overness Chart."

Global

Main Eventer: 91-100

Upper Midcarder: 81-90

Midcarder: 61-80

Lower Midcarder: 41-60

Opener: 21-40

Jobber: 0-20

What this means is, in a Global promotion, a worker that has an overness of 45 would be slotted (by the game) as a Lower Midcarder. There is a 9 point buffer, meaning a worker could theoretically be at a 69 before your writing staff tells you that the worker needs to be promoted to a Midcarder.

Figured some would like to have that info.

-Bill

Edited July 18, 2012 by Bill1996

[Guest Team 720]

What I propose: anyone who is added to developmental from the indies must have their overness (if higher than 66) lowered to 66 in order to fit the game regulations. They shouldn't have their overness lowered for any reason aside from that right off the bat like Hero's evidently was. As I explained above, he has a high level of indy overness that doesn't just disappear the second he gets hired. I look at it as a basis: if Damien Sandow got released now would he be main eventing ROH, DG-USA, PWG, etc? Probably not. Would Hero? Yes. We can't let WWE's overness ladder be the only thing we consider. Is it perfect? No. But this game is very simplistic in nature, just like with its brawl/speed measurement, and the only thing we can do with it is what makes the most sense and makes gameplay most fun. If you are playing strictly as WWE it is more realistic to lower Hero's overness to the 40s or 50s, as well as all developmental/former indy stars, but when you have 30+ other promotions to consider you can't let that be your only measurement.

Rather than debating the abstract notion of "overness" as it pertains to the real world, and actually look at how it works as a mechanic to drive EWR as a game?

Yes, Chris Hero could main event a ROH show tomorrow. But no, he would not be in the upper midcard were he to debut in WWE tomorrow. And his overness needs to accurately reflect that in-game. If that means his overness drops slightly due to being in development, then so be it.

These two quotes pretty much sum up my opinion on how overness should be looked at in EWR.

IMO, too often, if someone gets a good reaction on one episode of RAW, people are then clamoring to raise his/her overness based on that. We need to make sure that the stats given work with the in-game mechanics. Naturally, WWE workers are going to get more discussion and debate because they have multiple shows to showcase their talent and will most likely have more eyeballs watching. As someone else said, most people aren't going to go out of their way to watch the ROH's, CZW's, DGUSA/EVOLVE's and Shimmer's of the wrestling world. As a result, there are less opinions and debate/discussion on those promotions.

But, again, making sure everything works and makes sense within the confines of the game should take priority. After all, we're going for realism within the game.

Regarding Kris' post on lowering overness to 66 for workers who are higher than 66 that sign with WWE, I would actually say they should be lowered to 63... Reason being, that will give them a few months in game to "develop" before you start hearing them bitch about being in Development... I can't think of many workers who were only in WWE DEV for one month before being called up.

-Bill

That does nothing. Dean Ambrose is still above guys that would get a reaction compaired to guys on the main roster. While I joke about Epico and Primo not getting reactions, Dean Ambrose at this point wouldn't even get crickets. No AVERAGE WWE fan knows him. I still feel he needs to be lower than those guys on NXT in Rollins, Ohno, Wyatt, Steamer and Dallas.

[fusionFX!]

Check menacing and ss look for Martin Stone.

[KrisClassic]

What I propose: anyone who is added to developmental from the indies must have their overness (if higher than 66) lowered to 66 in order to fit the game regulations. They shouldn't have their overness lowered for any reason aside from that right off the bat like Hero's evidently was. As I explained above, he has a high level of indy overness that doesn't just disappear the second he gets hired. I look at it as a basis: if Damien Sandow got released now would he be main eventing ROH, DG-USA, PWG, etc? Probably not. Would Hero? Yes. We can't let WWE's overness ladder be the only thing we consider. Is it perfect? No. But this game is very simplistic in nature, just like with its brawl/speed measurement, and the only thing we can do with it is what makes the most sense and makes gameplay most fun. If you are playing strictly as WWE it is more realistic to lower Hero's overness to the 40s or 50s, as well as all developmental/former indy stars, but when you have 30+ other promotions to consider you can't let that be your only measurement.

Rather than debating the abstract notion of "overness" as it pertains to the real world, and actually look at how it works as a mechanic to drive EWR as a game?

Yes, Chris Hero could main event a ROH show tomorrow. But no, he would not be in the upper midcard were he to debut in WWE tomorrow. And his overness needs to accurately reflect that in-game. If that means his overness drops slightly due to being in development, then so be it.

These two quotes pretty much sum up my opinion on how overness should be looked at in EWR.

IMO, too often, if someone gets a good reaction on one episode of RAW, people are then clamoring to raise his/her overness based on that. We need to make sure that the stats given work with the in-game mechanics. Naturally, WWE workers are going to get more discussion and debate because they have multiple shows to showcase their talent and will most likely have more eyeballs watching. As someone else said, most people aren't going to go out of their way to watch the ROH's, CZW's, DGUSA/EVOLVE's and Shimmer's of the wrestling world. As a result, there are less opinions and debate/discussion on those promotions.

But, again, making sure everything works and makes sense within the confines of the game should take priority. After all, we're going for realism within the game.

Regarding Kris' post on lowering overness to 66 for workers who are higher than 66 that sign with WWE, I would actually say they should be lowered to 63... Reason being, that will give them a few months in game to "develop" before you start hearing them bitch about being in Development... I can't think of many workers who were only in WWE DEV for one month before being called up.

-Bill

That does nothing. Dean Ambrose is still above guys that would get a reaction compaired to guys on the main roster. While I joke about Epico and Primo not getting reactions, Dean Ambrose at this point wouldn't even get crickets. No AVERAGE WWE fan knows him. I still feel he needs to be lower than those guys on NXT in Rollins, Ohno, Wyatt, Steamer and Dallas.

Why should he be lower than guys on the current NXT? It's not nationally distributed in any way, shape, or form. And it doesn't change the fact that Ambrose has a ridiculous amount of hype and momentum following him on the internet and by the independent fans that should not be ignored.

Edited July 18, 2012 by KrisClassic

[Bill1996]

What I propose: anyone who is added to developmental from the indies must have their overness (if higher than 66) lowered to 66 in order to fit the game regulations. They shouldn't have their overness lowered for any reason aside from that right off the bat like Hero's evidently was. As I explained above, he has a high level of indy overness that doesn't just disappear the second he gets hired. I look at it as a basis: if Damien Sandow got released now would he be main eventing ROH, DG-USA, PWG, etc? Probably not. Would Hero? Yes. We can't let WWE's overness ladder be the only thing we consider. Is it perfect? No. But this game is very simplistic in nature, just like with its brawl/speed measurement, and the only thing we can do with it is what makes the most sense and makes gameplay most fun. If you are playing strictly as WWE it is more realistic to lower Hero's overness to the 40s or 50s, as well as all developmental/former indy stars, but when you have 30+ other promotions to consider you can't let that be your only measurement.

Rather than debating the abstract notion of "overness" as it pertains to the real world, and actually look at how it works as a mechanic to drive EWR as a game?

Yes, Chris Hero could main event a ROH show tomorrow. But no, he would not be in the upper midcard were he to debut in WWE tomorrow. And his overness needs to accurately reflect that in-game. If that means his overness drops slightly due to being in development, then so be it.

These two quotes pretty much sum up my opinion on how overness should be looked at in EWR.

IMO, too often, if someone gets a good reaction on one episode of RAW, people are then clamoring to raise his/her overness based on that. We need to make sure that the stats given work with the in-game mechanics. Naturally, WWE workers are going to get more discussion and debate because they have multiple shows to showcase their talent and will most likely have more eyeballs watching. As someone else said, most people aren't going to go out of their way to watch the ROH's, CZW's, DGUSA/EVOLVE's and Shimmer's of the wrestling world. As a result, there are less opinions and debate/discussion on those promotions.

But, again, making sure everything works and makes sense within the confines of the game should take priority. After all, we're going for realism within the game.

Regarding Kris' post on lowering overness to 66 for workers who are higher than 66 that sign with WWE, I would actually say they should be lowered to 63... Reason being, that will give them a few months in game to "develop" before you start hearing them bitch about being in Development... I can't think of many workers who were only in WWE DEV for one month before being called up.

-Bill

That does nothing. Dean Ambrose is still above guys that would get a reaction compaired to guys on the main roster. While I joke about Epico and Primo not getting reactions, Dean Ambrose at this point wouldn't even get crickets. No AVERAGE WWE fan knows him. I still feel he needs to be lower than those guys on NXT in Rollins, Ohno, Wyatt, Steamer and Dallas.

Well, to clarify, the 63 overness number I gave would be a minimum drop, if they are over the 66 when they sign with WWE...

The thing is, with Ambrose being a former CZW Champion and CZW being a Cult promotion, the minimum overness a Main Eventer in a Cult promotion could possibly have is a 57. Here's the Cult Overness chart:

Cult

Main Eventer: 66-100

Upper Midcarder: 51-65

Midcarder: 41-50

Lower Midcarder: 21-40

Opener: 11-20

Jobber: 0-10

The 57 comes from the 9 point buffer... It works on both ends, to the best of my knowledge. Where everyone thinks Ambrose should go from there, I'll leave that up to you guys... Quite honestly, I haven't seen much of him at all. I'm just providing the numbers that will work in the game.

Epico and Primo, being Midcarders in WWE, the chart above puts them at an overness between 61-80.

Anyone wanting to see the entire chart:

Global

Main Eventer: 91-100

Upper Midcarder: 81-90

Midcarder: 61-80

Lower Midcarder: 41-60

Opener: 21-40

Jobber: 0-20

National

Main Eventer: 81-100

Upper Midcarder: 71-80

Midcarder: 56-70

Lower Midcarder: 41-55

Opener: 21-40

Jobber: 0-20

Cult

Main Eventer: 66-100

Upper Midcarder: 51-65

Midcarder: 41-50

Lower Midcarder: 21-40

Opener: 11-20

Jobber: 0-10

Regional

Main Eventer: 56-70

Upper Midcarder: 46-55

Midcarder: 36-45

Lower Midcarder: 21-35

Opener: 11-20

Jobber: 0-10

Small

Main Eventer: 36-50

Upper Midcarder: 21-35

Midcarder: 11-20

Lower Midcarder: 6-10

Opener: 0-5

Jobber: N/A

Backyard

Main Eventer: 21-30

Upper Midcarder: 11-20

Midcarder: 6-10

Lower Midcarder: 0-5

Opener: N/A

Jobber: N/A

Also, just so everyone is aware, I have removed the RAW/SD roster split and am working on simply having one brand split for NXT. Any workers appearing on NXT will be on this split, that way, the player can use the entire roster, or simply toggle to NXT to book an NXT show. With RAW and SD not really having a "roster split" anymore, there's not much reason to have it in the game, either.

-Bill

[Guest Team 720]

What I propose: anyone who is added to developmental from the indies must have their overness (if higher than 66) lowered to 66 in order to fit the game regulations. They shouldn't have their overness lowered for any reason aside from that right off the bat like Hero's evidently was. As I explained above, he has a high level of indy overness that doesn't just disappear the second he gets hired. I look at it as a basis: if Damien Sandow got released now would he be main eventing ROH, DG-USA, PWG, etc? Probably not. Would Hero? Yes. We can't let WWE's overness ladder be the only thing we consider. Is it perfect? No. But this game is very simplistic in nature, just like with its brawl/speed measurement, and the only thing we can do with it is what makes the most sense and makes gameplay most fun. If you are playing strictly as WWE it is more realistic to lower Hero's overness to the 40s or 50s, as well as all developmental/former indy stars, but when you have 30+ other promotions to consider you can't let that be your only measurement.

Rather than debating the abstract notion of "overness" as it pertains to the real world, and actually look at how it works as a mechanic to drive EWR as a game?

Yes, Chris Hero could main event a ROH show tomorrow. But no, he would not be in the upper midcard were he to debut in WWE tomorrow. And his overness needs to accurately reflect that in-game. If that means his overness drops slightly due to being in development, then so be it.

These two quotes pretty much sum up my opinion on how overness should be looked at in EWR.

IMO, too often, if someone gets a good reaction on one episode of RAW, people are then clamoring to raise his/her overness based on that. We need to make sure that the stats given work with the in-game mechanics. Naturally, WWE workers are going to get more discussion and debate because they have multiple shows to showcase their talent and will most likely have more eyeballs watching. As someone else said, most people aren't going to go out of their way to watch the ROH's, CZW's, DGUSA/EVOLVE's and Shimmer's of the wrestling world. As a result, there are less opinions and debate/discussion on those promotions.

But, again, making sure everything works and makes sense within the confines of the game should take priority. After all, we're going for realism within the game.

Regarding Kris' post on lowering overness to 66 for workers who are higher than 66 that sign with WWE, I would actually say they should be lowered to 63... Reason being, that will give them a few months in game to "develop" before you start hearing them bitch about being in Development... I can't think of many workers who were only in WWE DEV for one month before being called up.

-Bill

That does nothing. Dean Ambrose is still above guys that would get a reaction compaired to guys on the main roster. While I joke about Epico and Primo not getting reactions, Dean Ambrose at this point wouldn't even get crickets. No AVERAGE WWE fan knows him. I still feel he needs to be lower than those guys on NXT in Rollins, Ohno, Wyatt, Steamer and Dallas.

Why should he be lower than guys on the current NXT? It's not nationally distributed in any way, shape, or form. And it doesn't change the fact that Ambrose has a ridiculous amount of hype and momentum following him on the internet and by the independent fans that should not be ignored.

BECAUSE AMBROSE WOULD GET THE SAME REACTION AS THEM ON WWE TV!!!!

Edit:

That does nothing. Dean Ambrose is still above guys that would get a reaction compaired to guys on the main roster. While I joke about Epico and Primo not getting reactions, Dean Ambrose at this point wouldn't even get crickets. No AVERAGE WWE fan knows him. I still feel he needs to be lower than those guys on NXT in Rollins, Ohno, Wyatt, Steamer and Dallas.

Well, to clarify, the 63 overness number I gave would be a minimum drop, if they are over the 66 when they sign with WWE...

The thing is, with Ambrose being a former CZW Champion and CZW being a Cult promotion, the minimum overness a Main Eventer in a Cult promotion could possibly have is a 57. Here's the Cult Overness chart:

Cult

Main Eventer: 66-100

Upper Midcarder: 51-65

Midcarder: 41-50

Lower Midcarder: 21-40

Opener: 11-20

Jobber: 0-10

The 57 comes from the 9 point buffer... It works on both ends, to the best of my knowledge. Where everyone thinks Ambrose should go from there, I'll leave that up to you guys... Quite honestly, I haven't seen much of him at all. I'm just providing the numbers that will work in the game.

Epico and Primo, being Midcarders in WWE, the chart above puts them at an overness between 61-80.

Anyone wanting to see the entire chart:

Global

Main Eventer: 91-100

Upper Midcarder: 81-90

Midcarder: 61-80

Lower Midcarder: 41-60

Opener: 21-40

Jobber: 0-20

National

Main Eventer: 81-100

Upper Midcarder: 71-80

Midcarder: 56-70

Lower Midcarder: 41-55

Opener: 21-40

Jobber: 0-20

Cult

Main Eventer: 66-100

Upper Midcarder: 51-65

Midcarder: 41-50

Lower Midcarder: 21-40

Opener: 11-20

Jobber: 0-10

Regional

Main Eventer: 56-70

Upper Midcarder: 46-55

Midcarder: 36-45

Lower Midcarder: 21-35

Opener: 11-20

Jobber: 0-10

Small

Main Eventer: 36-50

Upper Midcarder: 21-35

Midcarder: 11-20

Lower Midcarder: 6-10

Opener: 0-5

Jobber: N/A

Backyard

Main Eventer: 21-30

Upper Midcarder: 11-20

Midcarder: 6-10

Lower Midcarder: 0-5

Opener: N/A

Jobber: N/A

-Bill

Here' the problem, Yoshi Tastu is more known on the WWE roster and is currently 55 on overness. For NXT: Bray Wyatt is at 57, Seth Rollins is at 54, Kassius Ohno is at 53, Richie Steamboat is at 52 and Bo Dallas is at 48. Dean Ambrose should be around 48 OR we have to adjust everyone in WWE to allow for this.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Team 720

[KrisClassic]

What I propose: anyone who is added to developmental from the indies must have their overness (if higher than 66) lowered to 66 in order to fit the game regulations. They shouldn't have their overness lowered for any reason aside from that right off the bat like Hero's evidently was. As I explained above, he has a high level of indy overness that doesn't just disappear the second he gets hired. I look at it as a basis: if Damien Sandow got released now would he be main eventing ROH, DG-USA, PWG, etc? Probably not. Would Hero? Yes. We can't let WWE's overness ladder be the only thing we consider. Is it perfect? No. But this game is very simplistic in nature, just like with its brawl/speed measurement, and the only thing we can do with it is what makes the most sense and makes gameplay most fun. If you are playing strictly as WWE it is more realistic to lower Hero's overness to the 40s or 50s, as well as all developmental/former indy stars, but when you have 30+ other promotions to consider you can't let that be your only measurement.

Rather than debating the abstract notion of "overness" as it pertains to the real world, and actually look at how it works as a mechanic to drive EWR as a game?

Yes, Chris Hero could main event a ROH show tomorrow. But no, he would not be in the upper midcard were he to debut in WWE tomorrow. And his overness needs to accurately reflect that in-game. If that means his overness drops slightly due to being in development, then so be it.

These two quotes pretty much sum up my opinion on how overness should be looked at in EWR.

IMO, too often, if someone gets a good reaction on one episode of RAW, people are then clamoring to raise his/her overness based on that. We need to make sure that the stats given work with the in-game mechanics. Naturally, WWE workers are going to get more discussion and debate because they have multiple shows to showcase their talent and will most likely have more eyeballs watching. As someone else said, most people aren't going to go out of their way to watch the ROH's, CZW's, DGUSA/EVOLVE's and Shimmer's of the wrestling world. As a result, there are less opinions and debate/discussion on those promotions.

But, again, making sure everything works and makes sense within the confines of the game should take priority. After all, we're going for realism within the game.

Regarding Kris' post on lowering overness to 66 for workers who are higher than 66 that sign with WWE, I would actually say they should be lowered to 63... Reason being, that will give them a few months in game to "develop" before you start hearing them bitch about being in Development... I can't think of many workers who were only in WWE DEV for one month before being called up.

-Bill

That does nothing. Dean Ambrose is still above guys that would get a reaction compaired to guys on the main roster. While I joke about Epico and Primo not getting reactions, Dean Ambrose at this point wouldn't even get crickets. No AVERAGE WWE fan knows him. I still feel he needs to be lower than those guys on NXT in Rollins, Ohno, Wyatt, Steamer and Dallas.

Why should he be lower than guys on the current NXT? It's not nationally distributed in any way, shape, or form. And it doesn't change the fact that Ambrose has a ridiculous amount of hype and momentum following him on the internet and by the independent fans that should not be ignored.

BECAUSE AMBROSE WOULD GET THE SAME REACTION AS THEM ON WWE TV!!!!

But TV isn't the end all, be all for overness. There is the independent scene and their reaction in other promotions to consider, too.

As for the nine point buffer, the second you have someone in a card position they are not over enough for (main eventer in global with 90 instead of 91), it hurts their overness and the writers/road agents say they are being pushed too much. Moxley can and has main evented CZW/DG-USA/Evolve, why not put him at 66? Same with Hero.

[notatardis]

Cena shouldn't be anywhere close to an 83 for selling.

I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense?

That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid.

As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment.

-Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him.

The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable.

I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's

The 40s? That is ridiculous. He should be at 66 based on his indy prowess alone. The NXT guys may be in the 50s, but is there as much of a sensation online in regards to them as there is Ambrose? Do they have the same cult following? Were they main eventing large independent promotions before going to FCW? The answer to all is no. Ambrose was one of the hugest stars on the indy scene before he got signed, and now that he is in FCW he is the hottest property there.

Most casual fans have little to no idea who he is, and he's not any more vaunted than Claudio, Hero, or Black, only Claudio of which is in the high 60s, and so far I don't think he's measured up to that. I don't know about the 40s, but based on comparable players, I'd say the mid to low 50s.

If we're talking casual fans we would need to lower all of the indy wrestler's stats, and I don't think that is reasonable at all. If Ambrose were back on the indies he would be just as well-respected and known as Davey Richards, Roderick Strong, or any of the other top names.

As for the balances to stats, I disagree, I feel they should be all-encompassing. Finlay can have a 5 star match with his style of brawling, it wouldn't be accurate to lower his stats and only have him be mediocre. While having things be all-encompassing isn't perfect, neither is the game, and it is the best solution we have.

-Raise Chris Wylde's brawl to 53, speed to 67, technical to 58, selling to 74, and overness to 25.

-Raise Aden Chambers' brawl to 66 and technical to 52.

-Raise John Zandig's technical to 39.

And you'd get no disagreement from me in terms of lowering the indy wrestler's stats. I firmly disagree that Ambrose would be held that highly simply because he wasn't before hand and hasn't done anything to change that.

So basically you think it's more realistic to have pretty much any two people put together, who may have completely contrasting styles, represented by the same stat, put on a terrific match when that's more likely than not to be inaccurate? I firmly disagree that's the best solution we have. Finaly more often than not won't have 5 star matches. His and others stats should be representative of that. The missing occasional 5 star match is better than the constant 3 star affairs turned into 5 star ones.

[Guest Team 720]

What I propose: anyone who is added to developmental from the indies must have their overness (if higher than 66) lowered to 66 in order to fit the game regulations. They shouldn't have their overness lowered for any reason aside from that right off the bat like Hero's evidently was. As I explained above, he has a high level of indy overness that doesn't just disappear the second he gets hired. I look at it as a basis: if Damien Sandow got released now would he be main eventing ROH, DG-USA, PWG, etc? Probably not. Would Hero? Yes. We can't let WWE's overness ladder be the only thing we consider. Is it perfect? No. But this game is very simplistic in nature, just like with its brawl/speed measurement, and the only thing we can do with it is what makes the most sense and makes gameplay most fun. If you are playing strictly as WWE it is more realistic to lower Hero's overness to the 40s or 50s, as well as all developmental/former indy stars, but when you have 30+ other promotions to consider you can't let that be your only measurement.

Rather than debating the abstract notion of "overness" as it pertains to the real world, and actually look at how it works as a mechanic to drive EWR as a game?

Yes, Chris Hero could main event a ROH show tomorrow. But no, he would not be in the upper midcard were he to debut in WWE tomorrow. And his overness needs to accurately reflect that in-game. If that means his overness drops slightly due to being in development, then so be it.

These two quotes pretty much sum up my opinion on how overness should be looked at in EWR.

IMO, too often, if someone gets a good reaction on one episode of RAW, people are then clamoring to raise his/her overness based on that. We need to make sure that the stats given work with the in-game mechanics. Naturally, WWE workers are going to get more discussion and debate because they have multiple shows to showcase their talent and will most likely have more eyeballs watching. As someone else said, most people aren't going to go out of their way to watch the ROH's, CZW's, DGUSA/EVOLVE's and Shimmer's of the wrestling world. As a result, there are less opinions and debate/discussion on those promotions.

But, again, making sure everything works and makes sense within the confines of the game should take priority. After all, we're going for realism within the game.

Regarding Kris' post on lowering overness to 66 for workers who are higher than 66 that sign with WWE, I would actually say they should be lowered to 63... Reason being, that will give them a few months in game to "develop" before you start hearing them bitch about being in Development... I can't think of many workers who were only in WWE DEV for one month before being called up.

-Bill

That does nothing. Dean Ambrose is still above guys that would get a reaction compaired to guys on the main roster. While I joke about Epico and Primo not getting reactions, Dean Ambrose at this point wouldn't even get crickets. No AVERAGE WWE fan knows him. I still feel he needs to be lower than those guys on NXT in Rollins, Ohno, Wyatt, Steamer and Dallas.

Why should he be lower than guys on the current NXT? It's not nationally distributed in any way, shape, or form. And it doesn't change the fact that Ambrose has a ridiculous amount of hype and momentum following him on the internet and by the independent fans that should not be ignored.

BECAUSE AMBROSE WOULD GET THE SAME REACTION AS THEM ON WWE TV!!!!

But TV isn't the end all, be all for overness. There is the independent scene and their reaction in other promotions to consider, too.

As for the nine point buffer, the second you have someone in a card position they are not over enough for (main eventer in global with 90 instead of 91), it hurts their overness and the writers/road agents say they are being pushed too much. Moxley can and has main evented CZW/DG-USA/Evolve, why not put him at 66? Same with Hero.

The raise all of the WWE's roster's overness because they should be ABOVE guys that are merely getting buzz on the independents that MOST fans do not watch.

[KrisClassic]

Cena shouldn't be anywhere close to an 83 for selling.

I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense?

That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid.

As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment.

-Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him.

The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable.

I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's

The 40s? That is ridiculous. He should be at 66 based on his indy prowess alone. The NXT guys may be in the 50s, but is there as much of a sensation online in regards to them as there is Ambrose? Do they have the same cult following? Were they main eventing large independent promotions before going to FCW? The answer to all is no. Ambrose was one of the hugest stars on the indy scene before he got signed, and now that he is in FCW he is the hottest property there.

Most casual fans have little to no idea who he is, and he's not any more vaunted than Claudio, Hero, or Black, only Claudio of which is in the high 60s, and so far I don't think he's measured up to that. I don't know about the 40s, but based on comparable players, I'd say the mid to low 50s.

If we're talking casual fans we would need to lower all of the indy wrestler's stats, and I don't think that is reasonable at all. If Ambrose were back on the indies he would be just as well-respected and known as Davey Richards, Roderick Strong, or any of the other top names.

As for the balances to stats, I disagree, I feel they should be all-encompassing. Finlay can have a 5 star match with his style of brawling, it wouldn't be accurate to lower his stats and only have him be mediocre. While having things be all-encompassing isn't perfect, neither is the game, and it is the best solution we have.

-Raise Chris Wylde's brawl to 53, speed to 67, technical to 58, selling to 74, and overness to 25.

-Raise Aden Chambers' brawl to 66 and technical to 52.

-Raise John Zandig's technical to 39.

And you'd get no disagreement from me in terms of lowering the indy wrestler's stats. I firmly disagree that Ambrose would be held that highly simply because he wasn't before hand and hasn't done anything to change that.

So basically you think it's more realistic to have pretty much any two people put together, who may have completely contrasting styles, represented by the same stat, put on a terrific match when that's more likely than not to be inaccurate? I firmly disagree that's the best solution we have. Finaly more often than not won't have 5 star matches. His and others stats should be representative of that. The missing occasional 5 star match is better than the constant 3 star affairs turned into 5 star ones.

So anyone with high brawl that hasn't done a death match before should have their stat lowered?

Just because two guys work different styles doesn't mean they can't have a good match. Masada is a great brawler, AR Fox is a great speed-based wrestler, but they had a fantastic match at CZW the other night. It doesn't need to be strong style/strong style death match/death match WWE style/WWE style to be good. Mixing it up can be just fine.

[notatardis]

And for that matter, Kris, what do you consider Mediocre? I think in terms of game mechanics, wouldn't that be about 50 or so? The game doesn't act as a test, where 70 is the average to the best of my recollection. The 70s would be solidly above average, I think.

[notatardis]

Cena shouldn't be anywhere close to an 83 for selling.

I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense?

That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid.

As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment.

-Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him.

The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable.

I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's

The 40s? That is ridiculous. He should be at 66 based on his indy prowess alone. The NXT guys may be in the 50s, but is there as much of a sensation online in regards to them as there is Ambrose? Do they have the same cult following? Were they main eventing large independent promotions before going to FCW? The answer to all is no. Ambrose was one of the hugest stars on the indy scene before he got signed, and now that he is in FCW he is the hottest property there.

Most casual fans have little to no idea who he is, and he's not any more vaunted than Claudio, Hero, or Black, only Claudio of which is in the high 60s, and so far I don't think he's measured up to that. I don't know about the 40s, but based on comparable players, I'd say the mid to low 50s.

If we're talking casual fans we would need to lower all of the indy wrestler's stats, and I don't think that is reasonable at all. If Ambrose were back on the indies he would be just as well-respected and known as Davey Richards, Roderick Strong, or any of the other top names.

As for the balances to stats, I disagree, I feel they should be all-encompassing. Finlay can have a 5 star match with his style of brawling, it wouldn't be accurate to lower his stats and only have him be mediocre. While having things be all-encompassing isn't perfect, neither is the game, and it is the best solution we have.

-Raise Chris Wylde's brawl to 53, speed to 67, technical to 58, selling to 74, and overness to 25.

-Raise Aden Chambers' brawl to 66 and technical to 52.

-Raise John Zandig's technical to 39.

And you'd get no disagreement from me in terms of lowering the indy wrestler's stats. I firmly disagree that Ambrose would be held that highly simply because he wasn't before hand and hasn't done anything to change that.

So basically you think it's more realistic to have pretty much any two people put together, who may have completely contrasting styles, represented by the same stat, put on a terrific match when that's more likely than not to be inaccurate? I firmly disagree that's the best solution we have. Finaly more often than not won't have 5 star matches. His and others stats should be representative of that. The missing occasional 5 star match is better than the constant 3 star affairs turned into 5 star ones.

So anyone with high brawl that hasn't done a death match before should have their stat lowered?

Just because two guys work different styles doesn't mean they can't have a good match. Masada is a great brawler, AR Fox is a great speed-based wrestler, but they had a fantastic match at CZW the other night. It doesn't need to be strong style/strong style death match/death match WWE style/WWE style to be good. Mixing it up can be just fine.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying we should include all aspects of a stat because the stat accounts for all aspects. It's simply logical and fair.

I'm not saying different stats in terms of a matchup, I think that's very accurate. I don't think, say, Brain Damage and Finlay would put on as good of a brawl based match in general as say Steen and Richards.

[Bill1996]

What I propose: anyone who is added to developmental from the indies must have their overness (if higher than 66) lowered to 66 in order to fit the game regulations. They shouldn't have their overness lowered for any reason aside from that right off the bat like Hero's evidently was. As I explained above, he has a high level of indy overness that doesn't just disappear the second he gets hired. I look at it as a basis: if Damien Sandow got released now would he be main eventing ROH, DG-USA, PWG, etc? Probably not. Would Hero? Yes. We can't let WWE's overness ladder be the only thing we consider. Is it perfect? No. But this game is very simplistic in nature, just like with its brawl/speed measurement, and the only thing we can do with it is what makes the most sense and makes gameplay most fun. If you are playing strictly as WWE it is more realistic to lower Hero's overness to the 40s or 50s, as well as all developmental/former indy stars, but when you have 30+ other promotions to consider you can't let that be your only measurement.

Rather than debating the abstract notion of "overness" as it pertains to the real world, and actually look at how it works as a mechanic to drive EWR as a game?

Yes, Chris Hero could main event a ROH show tomorrow. But no, he would not be in the upper midcard were he to debut in WWE tomorrow. And his overness needs to accurately reflect that in-game. If that means his overness drops slightly due to being in development, then so be it.

These two quotes pretty much sum up my opinion on how overness should be looked at in EWR.

IMO, too often, if someone gets a good reaction on one episode of RAW, people are then clamoring to raise his/her overness based on that. We need to make sure that the stats given work with the in-game mechanics. Naturally, WWE workers are going to get more discussion and debate because they have multiple shows to showcase their talent and will most likely have more eyeballs watching. As someone else said, most people aren't going to go out of their way to watch the ROH's, CZW's, DGUSA/EVOLVE's and Shimmer's of the wrestling world. As a result, there are less opinions and debate/discussion on those promotions.

But, again, making sure everything works and makes sense within the confines of the game should take priority. After all, we're going for realism within the game.

Regarding Kris' post on lowering overness to 66 for workers who are higher than 66 that sign with WWE, I would actually say they should be lowered to 63... Reason being, that will give them a few months in game to "develop" before you start hearing them bitch about being in Development... I can't think of many workers who were only in WWE DEV for one month before being called up.

-Bill

That does nothing. Dean Ambrose is still above guys that would get a reaction compaired to guys on the main roster. While I joke about Epico and Primo not getting reactions, Dean Ambrose at this point wouldn't even get crickets. No AVERAGE WWE fan knows him. I still feel he needs to be lower than those guys on NXT in Rollins, Ohno, Wyatt, Steamer and Dallas.

Why should he be lower than guys on the current NXT? It's not nationally distributed in any way, shape, or form. And it doesn't change the fact that Ambrose has a ridiculous amount of hype and momentum following him on the internet and by the independent fans that should not be ignored.

BECAUSE AMBROSE WOULD GET THE SAME REACTION AS THEM ON WWE TV!!!!

But TV isn't the end all, be all for overness. There is the independent scene and their reaction in other promotions to consider, too.

As for the nine point buffer, the second you have someone in a card position they are not over enough for (main eventer in global with 90 instead of 91), it hurts their overness and the writers/road agents say they are being pushed too much. Moxley can and has main evented CZW/DG-USA/Evolve, why not put him at 66? Same with Hero.

The raise all of the WWE's roster's overness because they should be ABOVE guys that are merely getting buzz on the independents that MOST fans do not watch.

Obviously, the simple solution would be to create an overness ladder, like we did with the brawl, speed, tech and charisma. Once we see where everyone is, chances are, we can better discuss who all needs to be raised, lowered, etc... At this stage, though, I would say to wait until next month to do that, because I need to start updating stats within the next couple days and I highly doubt we could get everything organized and somewhat agreed upon on an entirely new ladder in the next 48 hours.

-Bill

[KrisClassic]

Cena shouldn't be anywhere close to an 83 for selling.

I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense?

That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid.

As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment.

-Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him.

The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable.

I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's

The 40s? That is ridiculous. He should be at 66 based on his indy prowess alone. The NXT guys may be in the 50s, but is there as much of a sensation online in regards to them as there is Ambrose? Do they have the same cult following? Were they main eventing large independent promotions before going to FCW? The answer to all is no. Ambrose was one of the hugest stars on the indy scene before he got signed, and now that he is in FCW he is the hottest property there.

Most casual fans have little to no idea who he is, and he's not any more vaunted than Claudio, Hero, or Black, only Claudio of which is in the high 60s, and so far I don't think he's measured up to that. I don't know about the 40s, but based on comparable players, I'd say the mid to low 50s.

If we're talking casual fans we would need to lower all of the indy wrestler's stats, and I don't think that is reasonable at all. If Ambrose were back on the indies he would be just as well-respected and known as Davey Richards, Roderick Strong, or any of the other top names.

As for the balances to stats, I disagree, I feel they should be all-encompassing. Finlay can have a 5 star match with his style of brawling, it wouldn't be accurate to lower his stats and only have him be mediocre. While having things be all-encompassing isn't perfect, neither is the game, and it is the best solution we have.

-Raise Chris Wylde's brawl to 53, speed to 67, technical to 58, selling to 74, and overness to 25.

-Raise Aden Chambers' brawl to 66 and technical to 52.

-Raise John Zandig's technical to 39.

And you'd get no disagreement from me in terms of lowering the indy wrestler's stats. I firmly disagree that Ambrose would be held that highly simply because he wasn't before hand and hasn't done anything to change that.

So basically you think it's more realistic to have pretty much any two people put together, who may have completely contrasting styles, represented by the same stat, put on a terrific match when that's more likely than not to be inaccurate? I firmly disagree that's the best solution we have. Finaly more often than not won't have 5 star matches. His and others stats should be representative of that. The missing occasional 5 star match is better than the constant 3 star affairs turned into 5 star ones.

So anyone with high brawl that hasn't done a death match before should have their stat lowered?

Just because two guys work different styles doesn't mean they can't have a good match. Masada is a great brawler, AR Fox is a great speed-based wrestler, but they had a fantastic match at CZW the other night. It doesn't need to be strong style/strong style death match/death match WWE style/WWE style to be good. Mixing it up can be just fine.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying we should include all aspects of a stat because the stat accounts for all aspects. It's simply logical and fair.

I'm not saying different stats in terms of a matchup, I think that's very accurate. I don't think, say, Brain Damage and Finlay would put on as good of a brawl based match in general as say Steen and Richards.

To be honest I think that would be an awesome match-up.

And for that matter, Kris, what do you consider Mediocre? I think in terms of game mechanics, wouldn't that be about 50 or so? The game doesn't act as a test, where 70 is the average to the best of my recollection. The 70s would be solidly above average, I think.

This is how I look at it:

40s - okay.

50s - decent.

60s - good

70s - REALLY good.

80s - great. One of the top in wrestling.

90s - one of the best of all time.