EWR 2012 Stats Update: August ***PLEASE USE SPOILER TAGS***

[Guest Team 720]

So, in short, IMO, it should be looked at as a whole, taking those three things into consideration:

1: How many different places they run.

2: Attendance at the events.

3: How many events are run.

I don't think any one element should trump another... IMO, they should all be factored in equally.

To be honest, when I posted before, I didn't realize that DG-EVO has run in that many places... With you posting the info that you did, I would agree that DG-EVO should have a higher image than CZW.

Based on the info provided and Kris' suggestions, here's what I'm thinking about the Cult Promotions now. The bolded would be changes from the chart posted at the start of the month:

ROH: 76

CHI: 48

DG-EVO: 37

CZW: 29

SWA-SW: 24 (Shimmer Women Athletes/Shine Wrestling)

PWG: 21

PWS would move down to Regional... With 2CW being at 87 and LLUSA being at 81, should we slot PWS higher than 2CW, in between 2CW and LLUSA, or below both of them?

Seems I'm in the minority regarding WWC and ECCW, so we'll not mess with those for the time being.

Feel free to keep discussing, the bolded numbers above are just what I'm thinking, based on the info presented and Kris' suggestions.

-Bill

The thing is with DGUSA/EVOLVE is the number of shows has changed due to both promotions being combined now. By this point last year, DGUSA ran 9 events under that banner and EVOLVE ran 3 events (their only showings for the year.) This year DGUSA has run 6 events and EVOLVE has run 8 events.

I honestly don't see why saying a promotion runs more often helps increase it's awareness. To me when a promotion runs 2 times a month in their home base, it does not really do anything to me. If it is like CHIKARA, ROH or DGUSA where they run double shots in two different cities, I lean on that more.In the case of PWS, they historically run one big show every three months. Which I know DGUSA does too, mainly due to the talent issues for Dragon Gate. Being that PWS only runs a handful of show but they are big shows and 2CW run one if not two shows a month and there are a number of big shows Living on the Edge mainly comes to mind, I would put them higher.

LLUSA should be lower at this point due to how inactive they have been. I would possibly put them on the shortlist of promotions to remove from the game. The stuff on hulu is a year and a half old footage that was filmed for season two (the aired shows are finally up which would be episode 8-11) and season three. They have run house shows with some constant talent but it is not like they were in 2010 or even 2011 when they aired footage. I have not heard if they will tape more footage for another season on hulu or no. I donot know the attendence for the recent LLUSA touring shows.

So, you're saying that you don't think that how many shows a promotion puts on should have any bearing whatsoever on their image? Because, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Now, should it be the ONLY factor? No, but to say that the amount of shows a promotion runs shouldn't have any bearing at all, I think is very incorrect. You said yourself that LLUSA should be dropped due to their inactivity (meaning not running shows). If a promotion's image should be dropped due to not running, shouldn't it go up if they are running more than in the past?

If promotion A runs one show a month and draws 300 people, while promotion B runs 2 shows a month in the same spot and draws 150 people to each, I'd say promotion A would be the more popular (higher image) promotion. They drew 300 in one show, where it took promotion B 2 shows to get the same draw.

But, if promotion A runs one show a month and draws 300 people, while promotion B runs 2 shows a month in the same spot and draws 300 people to each, I'd have to give the edge to promotion B...

I noticed that you didn't suggest any changes to the image numbers I suggested... If you don't have a problem with the numbers, it's all a moot point, becuase in the in-game aspect, we'd agree on the "hierarchy" of the promotions.

I was also a bit confused on whee you felt PWS and 2CW should be in comparison wiht each other. Should PWS be ahead of 2CW or vice versa... Again, 2CW is currently at 87 Regional, so there's not much room above them, if we want to put PWS ahead of them.

I got that LLUSA should be lowered... How much lower...?

We have WWE at Global, TNA at National and are working on sorting out the order of the Cult promotions. Once we get that done, we can work on sorting the Regional promotions.

-Bill

2CW should be above in my opinion. I would put PWS at the current level LLUSA is at. LLUSA should be down to 60/65 I would say. I would have it on my radar for removal by I'm thinking October because of the fact they need to run the current tappings in the bank and PERHAPS that can drum up interest in more shows or doing more tappings.

As for running shows increasing PI, I think the bigger issue is if they run larger shows in more different locations, it should help more than XYZ wrestling runs two shows out of a VFW hall each month while ABC wrestling runs once a month in the hockey rink on the other side of town..If they run bigger venues and get more fans then yes, BUT if they run smaller venues like I know CHIKARA's Syracuse show was smaller than their normal shows (cause I went to the early 2CW shows there) then it shouldn't. This is why CHIKARA is a cult promotion, they are a larger promotion. PWG at this point is not as big as once was, don't have as many stars as they once had and also does not run as frequently so I would put them lower. Plus it does not help them that they only pretty much run out of Reseda, CA and not wrestle every where in Cali. I would say attendence and where they run should have much more weight than how many times they run.

[Bill1996]

2CW should be above in my opinion. I would put PWS at the current level LLUSA is at. LLUSA should be down to 60/65 I would say. I would have it on my radar for removal by I'm thinking October because of the fact they need to run the current tappings in the bank and PERHAPS that can drum up interest in more shows or doing more tappings.

As for running shows increasing PI, I think the bigger issue is if they run larger shows in more different locations, it should help more than XYZ wrestling runs two shows out of a VFW hall each month while ABC wrestling runs once a month in the hockey rink on the other side of town..If they run bigger venues and get more fans then yes, BUT if they run smaller venues like I know CHIKARA's Syracuse show was smaller than their normal shows (cause I went to the early 2CW shows there) then it shouldn't. This is why CHIKARA is a cult promotion, they are a larger promotion. PWG at this point is not as big as once was, don't have as many stars as they once had and also does not run as frequently so I would put them lower. Plus it does not help them that they only pretty much run out of Reseda, CA and not wrestle every where in Cali. I would say attendence and where they run should have much more weight than how many times they run.

Fair enough...

Really, though, at this point, I'm really just asking if there are any changes that people would suggest to the image numbers I proposed for the Cult promotions:

ROH: 76

CHI: 48

DG-EVO: 37

CZW: 29

SWA-SW: 24 (Shimmer Women Athletes/Shine Wrestling)

PWG: 21

The bolded ones would be my suggested changes... These were the ranges Kris suggested, so I tried to stay in those to get a rough frame:

I would put it (PWG) at 18-22 Cult. I would put CZW around 24-28, and DG-USA to 29-34.

So far, the ones I didn't suggest changing are ROH, CHI and DG-EVO... Should ROH be a bit higher...? Should CHI go up a little? Is DG-EVO good at 37, or should they be a little closer to Chikara?

Just really looking to make sure we have the Cult promotions images agreed upon at the moment.

-Bill

Edited August 3, 2012 by Bill1996

[Guest Team 720]

Add Rakute Masamune, Dragon Furia, Furia del Dragon and Silver Wolf to Masamune's names. He should also have a friendship with Kennichiro Arai and a loyalty to his trainer Lizmark.

[notatardis]

ROH's tough, they are really starting to lose a lot of momentum and push. I truly think they have peaked earlier.

[MaSc]

Although some people, like Davey Richards might need a slight overness lowering. I think he was bumped to 74 because of the move to national anyway. There's no way he's more known, than say, Heath Slater or Ryback. The top ROH guys should be mid to high 60's maybe early 70's (like 70-71) at most considering the guidelines we set last month, but considering 67 gets them to main event status at Cult, which is accurate, they should all be around there.

Again.."Well known" is not the same as "Overness".

Edited August 3, 2012 by MaSc

[notatardis]

Although some people, like Davey Richards might need a slight overness lowering. I think he was bumped to 74 because of the move to national anyway. There's no way he's more known, than say, Heath Slater or Ryback. The top ROH guys should be mid to high 60's maybe early 70's (like 70-71) at most considering the guidelines we set last month, but considering 67 gets them to main event status at Cult, which is accurate, they should all be around there.

Again.."Well known" is not the same as "Overness".

Again

Over: This is how much the crowd react to a worker. 0 means the person is totally unknown, 100 means a worker is known worldwide (such as The Rock). Generally wrestlers below 10 will be working for backyard federations, wrestlers around 60 will be working for Cult promotions

it kinda is. We discussed this last month. 200 in a bingo hall is the same as 200 in a large arena. It's still not a lot.

[MaSc]

Although some people, like Davey Richards might need a slight overness lowering. I think he was bumped to 74 because of the move to national anyway. There's no way he's more known, than say, Heath Slater or Ryback. The top ROH guys should be mid to high 60's maybe early 70's (like 70-71) at most considering the guidelines we set last month, but considering 67 gets them to main event status at Cult, which is accurate, they should all be around there.

Again.."Well known" is not the same as "Overness".

Again

Over: This is how much the crowd react to a worker. 0 means the person is totally unknown, 100 means a worker is known worldwide (such as The Rock). Generally wrestlers below 10 will be working for backyard federations, wrestlers around 60 will be working for Cult promotions

it kinda is. We discussed this last month. 200 in a bingo hall is the same as 200 in a large arena. It's still not a lot.

Many Experts see Richards as one of the Best Wrestler in the World. He has an incredible Reputation. Richards headlines Shows all over the World and not only in "Bingo Halls". Apart from the Legends Angle nobody cares about Heath Slater. (Almost) No one buys a Ticket only to see Heath Slater. Overness also means that Fans assume the worker in his role. Also the most WWE Undercarder are not even on national TV. For many Wrestlingfans Richards is one of the best Wrestlers in the World. Slater is only one more "WWE-Guy". It does not make any difference for most people whether there is Slater, JTG or Curt Hawkins in the ring. A WWE crowd also reacts differently than an "Independent" Crowd. Sure, Heath Slater is well known. But he is only known to be a WWE worker. And that does NOT mean that he is "over".

BTW: Give Davey Richards a microphone and let him insult the WWE-Audience. He will get exactly the same reactions as Slater.

Edited August 4, 2012 by MaSc

[notatardis]

But the WWE has more, a lot more of an audience. That is the way the game works, from the game's own FAQ and mechanics. Yeah "experts" know of him and how good he is, but they make up a very small segment of the wrestling fan population. I run an American Football board, with people who watch wrestling. I think maybe 2 or 3 of them know of Richards. You know what they talk about more? The WWE. Because that's what wrestling fans at large know. We're a small special population, hardly indicative of the wrestling fan population at large.

I don't care about who buys a ticket to see who or whatever, overness doesn't measure that. It measures how well a wrestler is known, and if you polled all wrestling fans, they would know who Heath Slater was more often than Richards.

You can posit all the ifs and buts about if their situations were reversed, but they aren't. Pretty sure Claudio's been doing the same thing, as most other heels, and not all reactions are the same. Slater may be another WWE guy, but those guys, they're pretty well known. If you talk about overness being a worker in his role, which it is, to an extent, then Davey can be a 67 and still be a Main Eventer at the Cult Promotion level, which is exactly what he is.

[MaSc]

But the WWE has more, a lot more of an audience. That is the way the game works, from the game's own FAQ and mechanics. Yeah "experts" know of him and how good he is, but they make up a very small segment of the wrestling fan population. I run an American Football board, with people who watch wrestling. I think maybe 2 or 3 of them know of Richards. You know what they talk about more? The WWE. Because that's what wrestling fans at large know. We're a small special population, hardly indicative of the wrestling fan population at large.

I don't care about who buys a ticket to see who or whatever, overness doesn't measure that. It measures how well a wrestler is known, and if you polled all wrestling fans, they would know who Heath Slater was more often than Richards.

You can posit all the ifs and buts about if their situations were reversed, but they aren't. Pretty sure Claudio's been doing the same thing, as most other heels, and not all reactions are the same. Slater may be another WWE guy, but those guys, they're pretty well known. If you talk about overness being a worker in his role, which it is, to an extent, then Davey can be a 67 and still be a Main Eventer at the Cult Promotion level, which is exactly what he is.

And here is the Problem. You say "Overness" means how many People knows Heat Slater. I say Overness ist how People reacts to a Wrestler. And you say Overness does not mean a wrestler "sold tickets"? For me this is a big factor in the Overness Value.

How many "casual" fans know the WWE Guys that are used almost only for superstars and live events? Not as many as you might think! WWE has more audience no doubt. That does not mean that the casual fans know the worker from the Undercard

Yeah...Richards could Main Event a cult promotion with 67. But Slater wouldn't headline any show for ROH. Slater wouldn't headline any Show in Japan. He would be just a guy known from WWE.

[KrisClassic]

I would put PWS and 2CW at an equal level. Also, I wouldn't put Shimmer at higher than PWG. I would say Shimmer should be in the 12-15 range.

If ROH is going to be at 76, NO WAY should Chikara be so close at 48. I would suggest Chikara be 38, DG-EVO should be 36, and ROH at 86.

As for Davey Richards, he is at the level that he is as well known as you can get for someone who is strictly indies. I would put him at 70.

-Raise Lance Anoai's overness to 34.

-Raise KC Blade's brawl to 49, overness to 34, and charisma to 76.

-Raise EC Negro's brawl to 47 and overness to 34.

-Add Mikey Valentino to the game:

Mikey Valentino

Valentino

January, 22

Lightweight

Image

B 44

S 54

T 49

Stiff 41

Sell 60

Over 22

Charisma 53

Att 90

Behav 90

Check Shooting Ability.

Face, Armed Forces

3,000

Speaks

American

Front Flip Piledriver (impact)

Front Flip Piledriver (impact)

Loyalty to Supreme Lee Great and Samu.

Alter Egos: Mike Vess, Private Mike Vess, Private Valentino, Private Mikey Valentino, Private Mikey.

Upon thinking it over, NWA-F1 hasn't run in 4+ months. WXW C4 runs 2-3 times a month. I think they would be a great replacement, given that they are about the same size as F1. I will be providing stats for all of the workers as well as the company so it is ready for next month's release, if Bill is interested in swapping it out for NWA F1.

Edited August 4, 2012 by KrisClassic

[jupiterhill]

I noticed Michael Porter is in the staff as a road agent. Didn't he pass away in 2010, or was that another guy with the same name? I've realized it for a bit, but kept forgetting to mention it.

[notatardis]

But the WWE has more, a lot more of an audience. That is the way the game works, from the game's own FAQ and mechanics. Yeah "experts" know of him and how good he is, but they make up a very small segment of the wrestling fan population. I run an American Football board, with people who watch wrestling. I think maybe 2 or 3 of them know of Richards. You know what they talk about more? The WWE. Because that's what wrestling fans at large know. We're a small special population, hardly indicative of the wrestling fan population at large.

I don't care about who buys a ticket to see who or whatever, overness doesn't measure that. It measures how well a wrestler is known, and if you polled all wrestling fans, they would know who Heath Slater was more often than Richards.

You can posit all the ifs and buts about if their situations were reversed, but they aren't. Pretty sure Claudio's been doing the same thing, as most other heels, and not all reactions are the same. Slater may be another WWE guy, but those guys, they're pretty well known. If you talk about overness being a worker in his role, which it is, to an extent, then Davey can be a 67 and still be a Main Eventer at the Cult Promotion level, which is exactly what he is.

And here is the Problem. You say "Overness" means how many People knows Heat Slater. I say Overness ist how People reacts to a Wrestler. And you say Overness does not mean a wrestler "sold tickets"? For me this is a big factor in the Overness Value.

How many "casual" fans know the WWE Guys that are used almost only for superstars and live events? Not as many as you might think! WWE has more audience no doubt. That does not mean that the casual fans know the worker from the Undercard

Yeah...Richards could Main Event a cult promotion with 67. But Slater wouldn't headline any show for ROH. Slater wouldn't headline any Show in Japan. He would be just a guy known from WWE.

I don't say that, the GAME says that. It's in the FAQ. I'm not trying to redefine what the game says. By the game's definition, it's how well a wrestler is known by the wrestling fans, and how wrestling fans as a whole would react to said wrestler. It's not completely real life accurate, as you note about a WWE midcarder moving to the indies (though, we had a discussion on that last month), but a lot of things don't so we have to work within the confines of the game. The game doesn't account for that difference, it keeps it all on one scale, and for better or for worse, that scale is set to the WWE.

[Bill1996]

Upon thinking it over, NWA-F1 hasn't run in 4+ months. WXW C4 runs 2-3 times a month. I think they would be a great replacement, given that they are about the same size as F1. I will be providing stats for all of the workers as well as the company so it is ready for next month's release, if Bill is interested in swapping it out for NWA F1.

Doesn't matter to me... Currently, I have Resistance Pro's roster ready to go in as well, just need suggestions on the promotion info (Size, Image, Risk, etc).

One thing I will say is that I want to get all of the promotions in the game adjusted into an agreeable order before I add or remove any promotions... That's one reason I'm trying to get feedback on how I slotted the Cult promotions... So far, you're the only one to respond with an opinion.

Normally, I'm up later into the evening, but probably won't be up much longer tonight, so hopefully more opinions on the matter will come in overnight.

Based on the opinions I get, I'll adjust the Cult list and see if we can come to an agreement there, so we can move onto the Regional promotions.

-Bill

[notatardis]

I would put PWS and 2CW at an equal level. Also, I wouldn't put Shimmer at higher than PWG. I would say Shimmer should be in the 12-15 range.

If ROH is going to be at 76, NO WAY should Chikara be so close at 48. I would suggest Chikara be 38, DG-EVO should be 36, and ROH at 86.

As for Davey Richards, he is at the level that he is as well known as you can get for someone who is strictly indies. I would put him at 70.

-Raise Lance Anoai's overness to 34.

-Raise KC Blade's brawl to 49, overness to 34, and charisma to 76.

-Raise EC Negro's brawl to 47 and overness to 34.

-Add Mikey Valentino to the game:

Mikey Valentino

Valentino

January, 22

Lightweight

Image

B 44

S 54

T 49

Stiff 41

Sell 60

Over 22

Charisma 53

Att 90

Behav 90

Check Shooting Ability.

Face, Armed Forces

3,000

Speaks

American

Front Flip Piledriver (impact)

Front Flip Piledriver (impact)

Loyalty to Supreme Lee Great and Samu.

Alter Egos: Mike Vess, Private Mike Vess, Private Valentino, Private Mikey Valentino, Private Mikey.

Upon thinking it over, NWA-F1 hasn't run in 4+ months. WXW C4 runs 2-3 times a month. I think they would be a great replacement, given that they are about the same size as F1. I will be providing stats for all of the workers as well as the company so it is ready for next month's release, if Bill is interested in swapping it out for NWA F1.

Davey I agree with, but ROH, I dunno. A few months ago I'd agree, but people are leaving in droves, and they keep getting hit with pretty bad PR. As I said, I think they have peaked and are starting to slide.

[notatardis]

Upon thinking it over, NWA-F1 hasn't run in 4+ months. WXW C4 runs 2-3 times a month. I think they would be a great replacement, given that they are about the same size as F1. I will be providing stats for all of the workers as well as the company so it is ready for next month's release, if Bill is interested in swapping it out for NWA F1.

Doesn't matter to me... Currently, I have Resistance Pro's roster ready to go in as well, just need suggestions on the promotion info (Size, Image, Risk, etc).

One thing I will say is that I want to get all of the promotions in the game adjusted into an agreeable order before I add or remove any promotions... That's one reason I'm trying to get feedback on how I slotted the Cult promotions... So far, you're the only one to respond with an opinion.

Normally, I'm up later into the evening, but probably won't be up much longer tonight, so hopefully more opinions on the matter will come in overnight.

Based on the opinions I get, I'll adjust the Cult list and see if we can come to an agreement there, so we can move onto the Regional promotions.

-Bill

For what it's worth, I haven't chimed in because I agree. It's pretty much spot on with what I was espousing last month.

[jupiterhill]

Upon thinking it over, NWA-F1 hasn't run in 4+ months. WXW C4 runs 2-3 times a month. I think they would be a great replacement, given that they are about the same size as F1. I will be providing stats for all of the workers as well as the company so it is ready for next month's release, if Bill is interested in swapping it out for NWA F1.

Doesn't matter to me... Currently, I have Resistance Pro's roster ready to go in as well, just need suggestions on the promotion info (Size, Image, Risk, etc).

One thing I will say is that I want to get all of the promotions in the game adjusted into an agreeable order before I add or remove any promotions... That's one reason I'm trying to get feedback on how I slotted the Cult promotions... So far, you're the only one to respond with an opinion.

Normally, I'm up later into the evening, but probably won't be up much longer tonight, so hopefully more opinions on the matter will come in overnight.

Based on the opinions I get, I'll adjust the Cult list and see if we can come to an agreement there, so we can move onto the Regional promotions.

-Bill

It's not that I don't care on how the rankings are, but I'm not the best at ranking them because I don't follow too many of the Indy feds. I didn't even know about Shimmer and Shine together until I saw this thread (maybe I did, but I forgot). I do follow a lot of wrestling, but I'll just stay out of it since, I never really use the feds in question. I either create a new one to begin with, or use TNA or WWE. However if in a few days, nobody else responds, I may check it out and offer my opinion.

[kdcastles]

But the WWE has more, a lot more of an audience. That is the way the game works, from the game's own FAQ and mechanics. Yeah "experts" know of him and how good he is, but they make up a very small segment of the wrestling fan population. I run an American Football board, with people who watch wrestling. I think maybe 2 or 3 of them know of Richards. You know what they talk about more? The WWE. Because that's what wrestling fans at large know. We're a small special population, hardly indicative of the wrestling fan population at large.

I don't care about who buys a ticket to see who or whatever, overness doesn't measure that. It measures how well a wrestler is known, and if you polled all wrestling fans, they would know who Heath Slater was more often than Richards.

You can posit all the ifs and buts about if their situations were reversed, but they aren't. Pretty sure Claudio's been doing the same thing, as most other heels, and not all reactions are the same. Slater may be another WWE guy, but those guys, they're pretty well known. If you talk about overness being a worker in his role, which it is, to an extent, then Davey can be a 67 and still be a Main Eventer at the Cult Promotion level, which is exactly what he is.

And here is the Problem. You say "Overness" means how many People knows Heat Slater. I say Overness ist how People reacts to a Wrestler. And you say Overness does not mean a wrestler "sold tickets"? For me this is a big factor in the Overness Value.

How many "casual" fans know the WWE Guys that are used almost only for superstars and live events? Not as many as you might think! WWE has more audience no doubt. That does not mean that the casual fans know the worker from the Undercard

Yeah...Richards could Main Event a cult promotion with 67. But Slater wouldn't headline any show for ROH. Slater wouldn't headline any Show in Japan. He would be just a guy known from WWE.

And the game says fuck your definition of overness. As already explained the game determines overness by how well known the worker is. It is ludicrous to argue that a guy who has never been on national tv in any prominent role is as over or more over (which the game determines as who is more well-known) than someone who is on televisions world wide. Remember, Raw is broadcast on stations in many countries, not just America.

[Bill1996]

It's not that I don't care on how the rankings are, but I'm not the best at ranking them because I don't follow too many of the Indy feds. I didn't even know about Shimmer and Shine together until I saw this thread (maybe I did, but I forgot). I do follow a lot of wrestling, but I'll just stay out of it since, I never really use the feds in question. I either create a new one to begin with, or use TNA or WWE. However if in a few days, nobody else responds, I may check it out and offer my opinion.

No biggie... If you don't follow it, you don't follow it... I just want to present my thoughts on the matter and give everyone a fair amount of time to rebuttal.

Really, what I want to avoid is making a decision on something, implementing it and then the next month, having people bitch and moan for the better part of a page over something that was adjusted...

Look no further than the current discussion over Davey Richards' overness... The guy is at 74 over currently and I've seen damn near a page of posts debating what would, at most, result in a 4 point drop to 70... IMO, it's a bit ridiculous, especially when we just did an overness tree that everyone had the chance to weigh in on last month.

I wouldn't put Shimmer at higher than PWG. I would say Shimmer should be in the 12-15 range.

OK, I'll admit, I don't know a lot about PWG, just did a bit of research on them last night and fit them into your suggested range (18-22). Here's what I can tell you about Shimmer and Shine, since I do know a fair amount about them:

1: Shimmer is pretty much guaranteed to run two sets of 4 DVD tapings per year... That's 8 shows per year.

2: Shine is currently planning on running 1 iPPV per month... That's 12 shows per year. The Shine production team primarily consists of the same people that handle DGUSA and EVOLVE.

3: Shimmer will be a part of WrestleCon in 2013, a festival of sorts taking place in NJ on WrestleMania weekend. Other promotions involved are DGUSA, EVOLVE, CZW and Chikara.

4: The attendancde for the Shimmer tapings are over the 200 mark and, my guess is, the reason is due to the fact that their home base (The Berwyn Eagles Club) has a capacity of 230, set by the local fire marshal.

5: A good amount of Shimmer fans that go to events are traveling from overseas as well, specifically to come to the shows. I don't know if that is the case for PWG (or any other indy promotion) as well, but personally, I'm really amazed that so may of the fans pay hundereds of dollars in airfare, hotels, etc, just to go to a Shimmer show. That's onre of the reasons I relly felt they should be considered a Cult promotion. Adding Shine into the mix just reinforced that feeling.

6: Tickets for the October 27-28 tapings went on sale on May 20th (5 months beforehand)... Front row for both days sold out in about 4 hours.

Not necessarily arguing, saying Shimmer/Shine should be ahead of PWG, just presenting the reasons why I initially put them ahead of PWG... Again, I don't know a lot about PWG at all, so I'd love to see any info you might have on PWG and your reasoning on why they should be ahead of Shimmer/Shine.

-Bill

[KrisClassic]

My main argument would be that Shimmer seems to be a very niche product, while PWG has a broader fan base.

[Guest mr. potato head]

Does it though? Using EWB as a guide, I see a lot more talk about Shimmer than about PWG. Just because it limits itself to a certain style doesn't mean it's less popular.