EWR Stats and Scenarios in Theory and Practice

[mkpunk]

I wouldn't say TNA is regional borderline cult, it's more cult borderline national. Promotions like ROH, CZW, DGUSA and all the other "cults" are more regional and only promote in a few neighboring states or states they actually do good business in. This would leave AAA and CMLL as national, which they are in Mexico.

As for the "the only TNA wrestlers would goto WWE are X, Y, Z" logic, that is taking the modern WWE credo tat they have too many small guys so they wont hire X.

As for debuts only go into the midcard, most have. The only I can think of who were instant stars were Hogan in 84, Big Show and Jericho in 99, the Radicalz in 00 and The Shield in 12. Every other initial debut in WWE were midcard acts at best. That doesn't mean say an AJ Styles would be treated as just a midcarder upon debut and get the huge Jericho style intro.

[pokerfreak]

Well of course if WWE created the hype train for Styles then yes he'd debut much better but right now in this moment an AJ Styles is known by essentially no one in the big picture of wrestling. As far as most people are concerned Styles is some guy that works for the promotion Angle went to. And I think that would make for much more realistic mods if Overness was treated like that.

[snakesonaplane]

I basically agree, AJ is not really anybody important - midcard WWE guys are at a much higher level. Obviously he is a 'big deal' in TNA, but even in his home-base he hardly lights up the crowd. In the WWE he'd be less important than Bad News Barrett, or Big E.

RE: promotion overness, Derek B's Guide is a great explanation/benchmark to use for TEW:

First things first… given that this is intended particularly to help with making a current day real world mod, make sure you know how far into depth you are planning to go with it. Whether you are aiming to include every company in North America or just a half dozen or so major players, you need to get their size right. I’ve mentioned this in another post but it is worth mentioning again. The WWE are no longer as big as they once were. In 2001 they were global sized and riding a huge wave of multimedia and mainstream attention… now they are a shell of that. This should be reflected in their company size. Being known is not the same as being cared about, so while everyone knows who the WWE is, they have lost a lot of fans. TV viewership is lower than it’s ever been, PPV buyrates are down on where they have been despite the growth of PPV as a medium… generally, they are more widespread but are less concentrated. With the changes to National+ sizes between TEW10 and TEW13, the WWE are now only a National sized company, siting somewhere in the low/mid 70s in popularity depending on the way you have set up the Game World for Regional Importance. This is IMPORTANT! I love that Regional Importance varies a lot more now, but some of the downswings can be brutal to larger level companies. I think the game defaults to giving a range of plus/minus 15 points of the default percentage… I’d narrow that range significantly, maybe to juse 5 points lower than default and 15 points higher, thus ensuring that the long term playability of the mod isn’t jeopardised by a regional slump in pro wrestling, which could be painful.

Anywho, the WWE is at National in the USA.. and about the same size elsewhere. This gives them the chance to grow quickly to larger sizes if the AI/player can find some good with their workers, which is also covered in BALANCE. Getting the balance right with worker popularity and talents means the WWE should be capable of getting grades at about the same leve as their popularity, probably a little higher, which is what they are doing in real life and therefore what they should be doing if you are making a mod based on this time period.

...

+ Company popularity levels. As you said in your post, TNA are not a National level company. They're a medium level cult company (around the level USPW were in TEW10) and mid 50s across the US would be generous for them. But they do have popularity around the world thanks to TV exposure, which is NOT the same as being International level or higher. The WWE are also not as big as they once were, they've lost huge amounts of popularity around the world and with the new way that the higher size levels are done I'd have them pegged at National level. Setting them up at low to mid 70s across the US (and probably Canada/UK too) sets them up for being big enough to be National but with the scaling back of popularity for workers already mentioned, this level should make it possible to grow fairly easily again on the back of a big star. Setting the WWE with mid 80s level popularity means you have to turn out huge rated events consistently, which I don't think anyone can honestly say the WWE has been doing. The best balance for them is still at a high level, still comfortably away from cult BUT also fallen significantly from where they have been.

Ring of Honor? Regional level. They may have TV exposure but they're just a fairly strong regional company who are still in the process of growing. There's nothing wrong with being successful at regional, part of the fun of playing them would be to keep growing them while dealing with roster steals from the TNA and WWE. As long as they are owned by a TV network they should be able to stay on TV, maintain growth and maybe one day be a credible alternative. Don't set them at Cult, they don't have the audience to support it and if you are getting popularity worked out better then they won't be able to maintain it anyways.

Using the above as a guide...

The idea that TNA is borderline 'national' would be great if it were true, i'd love for that to be true - but that would be put them at a short step behind the WWE in TEW terms, meaning it would be possible to make them a competitor to the WWE in a few months of good booking, which is highly unrealistic.

For the data to be realistic it should be a challenge to raise TNA to national, as they have trying and failing to become relevant for over 10 years now! This should be reflected in the data. In scale with the WWE universe, WWE fans the casual, who are the majority of 'wrestling fans' TNA does not even exist. When I talk to WWE fans I know who aren't smarks, they think Kurt Angle et. al are retired!!!

The reality is that TNA has a long way to before they are considered even a proper 'cult' level company, let alone national. The recent attempts to tour nationally were a complete failure, which should give a good indication of where they are at... they've since retreated to their 'regional' home.

Basically TNA has the marketing and appearances of a company much larger than they actually are, they present themselves as a 'national company' or larger, they want you to view them that way, but they are not. They can barely afford to pay their 'top' guys. The danger of placing them too far up in popularity is that they will grow to be a competitor to the WWE with little work from the player, which in reality should be the biggest challenge for any player of a real world mod in TEW. Setting above a medium level cult company makes this too easy.

ROH and PWG are regional promotions, they don't have the exposure, fans, sales, ratings, buys etc. of a promotion larger tier, all other indies are properly 'small'.

Edited December 17, 2013 by snakesonaplane

[mkpunk]

I still argue TNA is cult. They can get pretty decent crowds for their big PPVs and even television tapings on the road. Now was it WCW sized venues, no. It was more or less AHL sized hockey arenas (think the Arena at Harbor Yard in Bridgeport, CT) that you get nearly 9,000 people at a full sell out. It ended up getting 6K in normal cases which is larger than DGUSA and ROH could ever get. Which is why I argue that TNA is cult being they would be regional.

[pokerfreak]

I'm pretty sure in EWR you need to be Cult to get a tv deal. Can't remember what you need to be in order to sign written deals. For that reason alone though TNA needs to be at least Cult.

[snakesonaplane]

I agree they should be cult, they also need to be anyway regardless because they have written contracts (!), but not a high cult, i.e. not pushing national. Low-medium cult is perfectly fine, as this reflects their current status sufficiently, i.e. they still have a lot of work to do before they'll 'break out' into a national phenomenon. This should be set as a challenge for the player as in life, it's been extremely difficult for TNA to raise their popularity at all.

Edited December 17, 2013 by snakesonaplane

[Reflecto Is My Favorite Poster]

TNA's roster isn't the real issue for minor pro-rating, simply because there'll never be a "good" way to prorate TNA at number 2 to WWE at number 1. There's perfectly fair levels for TNA, even rating TNA downwards to WWE, where you'd have people like Bobby Roode around the high-70s/low-80s for overness (upper mid in TNA, midcard in WWE)- but then you have people like Monty Brown/Chris Harris- equal to Roode in TNA, but who'd be in the 50s' in WWE as low midcarders. Should Roode be adjusted to his WWE stats (in the process saying only WWE guys can have high overness), or to his TNA overness.

The better question- what to do for the smaller promotions than TNA's ratings. I can buy a Bobby Roode at 79 or 80- even if he'd be a little lower in the WWE, TNA is just big enough you have to be reasonable and not say "every TNA homegrown's no higher than 60, either". Plus, if TNA gets these, you have to go through "Well, then ROH should have the same factor- if, say, Bobby Roode's only a 75-80 guy, then, say, Kevin Steen should be at 50-55", and then from there, companies like Anarchy Wrestling [a fairly overrated draw-promotion] of "Well, no way anyone for Anarchy even flirts with 30 overness", and so on and so forth.

[Colly]

As for debuts only go into the midcard, most have. The only I can think of who were instant stars were Hogan in 84, Big Show and Jericho in 99, the Radicalz in 00 and The Shield in 12. Every other initial debut in WWE were midcard acts at best. That doesn't mean say an AJ Styles would be treated as just a midcarder upon debut and get the huge Jericho style intro.

Flair, Goldberg, Steiner second time round to an extent, Luger went straight into a program with Perfect, Foley straight against Undertaker. I'm sure there'll be others earlier than that. Warrior? When there was a big alternative you could use those guys as stars.

[Skummy]

As for the "the only TNA wrestlers would goto WWE are X, Y, Z" logic, that is taking the modern WWE credo tat they have too many small guys so they wont hire X.

No it isn't, if only because that "credo" clearly doesn't even exist.

[mkpunk]

The better question- what to do for the smaller promotions than TNA's ratings. I can buy a Bobby Roode at 79 or 80- even if he'd be a little lower in the WWE, TNA is just big enough you have to be reasonable and not say "every TNA homegrown's no higher than 60, either". Plus, if TNA gets these, you have to go through "Well, then ROH should have the same factor- if, say, Bobby Roode's only a 75-80 guy, then, say, Kevin Steen should be at 50-55", and then from there, companies like Anarchy Wrestling [a fairly overrated draw-promotion] of "Well, no way anyone for Anarchy even flirts with 30 overness", and so on and so forth.

I think Anarchy had a hardcore fan push it up an then with the other north east indies, somebody had the same logic. Compare this to say Mexico where AAA and CMLL talent are actually legit over with pretty big venues. I do agree though, we should lower the other indies to regional or small.

As for the "the only TNA wrestlers would goto WWE are X, Y, Z" logic, that is taking the modern WWE credo tat they have too many small guys so they wont hire X.

No it isn't, if only because that "credo" clearly doesn't even exist.

Actually it was why the American Wolves were not pressed on their initial tryout (I think in September.) They only got their recent one when Regal stuck his neck out for them because they are "too good not to sign." Add in the logic that Daniel Bryan was too small to sell Summer Slam and you have a sound WWE logic of having "too many small guys."

[Hornswoggle4PM]

I basically agree, AJ is not really anybody important - midcard WWE guys are at a much higher level. Obviously he is a 'big deal' in TNA, but even in his home-base he hardly lights up the crowd. In the WWE he'd be less important than Bad News Barrett, or Big E.

RE: promotion overness, Derek B's Guide is a great explanation/benchmark to use for TEW:

...taken out to save space here...

Using the above as a guide...

The idea that TNA is borderline 'national' would be great if it were true, i'd love for that to be true - but that would be put them at a short step behind the WWE in TEW terms, meaning it would be possible to make them a competitor to the WWE in a few months of good booking, which is highly unrealistic.

For the data to be realistic it should be a challenge to raise TNA to national, as they have trying and failing to become relevant for over 10 years now! This should be reflected in the data. In scale with the WWE universe, WWE fans the casual, who are the majority of 'wrestling fans' TNA does not even exist. When I talk to WWE fans I know who aren't smarks, they think Kurt Angle et. al are retired!!!

The reality is that TNA has a long way to before they are considered even a proper 'cult' level company, let alone national. The recent attempts to tour nationally were a complete failure, which should give a good indication of where they are at... they've since retreated to their 'regional' home.

Basically TNA has the marketing and appearances of a company much larger than they actually are, they present themselves as a 'national company' or larger, they want you to view them that way, but they are not. They can barely afford to pay their 'top' guys. The danger of placing them too far up in popularity is that they will grow to be a competitor to the WWE with little work from the player, which in reality should be the biggest challenge for any player of a real world mod in TEW. Setting above a medium level cult company makes this too easy.

ROH and PWG are regional promotions, they don't have the exposure, fans, sales, ratings, buys etc. of a promotion larger tier, all other indies are properly 'small'.

The huge problem that I've got with this lies in the title of this topic: "EWR Stats and Scenarios in Theory and in Practice".

Firstly, I agree with the point about TNA probably not being a national company, but using TEW or other criteria that doesn't apply to EWR as a guide is not really an adequate reason for suggesting changes to an entirely different game. As you said yourself, the definitions of national, regional etc. have changed over time and we need to realise that EWR plays differently to TEW. If a good case can be mounted for TNA to be demoted to cult or WWE to be demoted to national in terms of how the game itself and its' mechanics work, I'd be all for that and it seems from some of the other stuff you posted that it does make sense. As it's been referred to though it isn't as if you can say that EWR is extremely accurate in terms of the wrestling business 10 years later.

All I'm trying to say is this;

In theory, you're absolutely right.

In practice, maybe not.

As a result, we shouldn't rush to make such drastic changes without seeing how it affects the game. For example, if both WWE and TNA are lowered, wouldn't that surely make TNA just as close to WWE as they are now?

Also not 100% sold on the whole "how over would they be in WWE" system for rating people. I feel that a better way to do overness would be something like this - If a new promotion were to be opened up right now, where would everybody fit in terms of name value and selling power?

Obviously Cena, The Rock and Hulk Hogan would be near the top, but where would, say, Big E Langston sit in comparison to Bully Ray?

I'm pretty sure in EWR you need to be Cult to get a tv deal. Can't remember what you need to be in order to sign written deals. For that reason alone though TNA needs to be at least Cult.

Nope, neither of those is true. Written deals can be signed at backyard level. To get and maintain a TV show on the Local Network for example you can be a lowly regional company (if not lower), but it's more that they have a Spike TV contract that's the issue there. TNA should be Cult at least though regardless.

[pokerfreak]

The argument for not using a where would they fit in WWE method or using a where would they fit in a brand new promotion is kind of tomato, tamota. It's essentially the same thing as the WWE guys are the ones with International exposure from TV by itself. Let alone house shows and International Tours. So it's going to work out to be the same. I think you'd keep WWE at the same level and for simplicity sake keep all their workers at whatever overness they are at now. Then start adjusting everyone else's roster and then the free agents.

Taking a closer look at that Overness chart and realizing now you can get TV deals at regional and written guys anytime (keep in mind as to not ruin my credibility it's been a long time since I've played lower level feds as I just have more fun playing a WWE), I think having TNA at Regional would make a lot of sense. They are light years behind WWE and in theory by the chart their Main Eventers would be a 70 at the highest outside of former WWE guys. Which makes sense. It explains why a guy like Matt Hardy could come in and still be a big deal in TNA when in WWE he was fodder, or a guy like Christian can come in and be treated like the next coming of Christ (no pun intended) in TNA. Having it set up this way WWE would only be after the cream of the crop from TNA unless they spotted an amazing in ring talent either on the mic or ring work and scoop them up because of it.

[IDOL]

I don't think you can really argue for using the TEW scale of popularity for EWR guys. Two totally different beasts.

[Reflecto Is My Favorite Poster]

Taking a closer look at that Overness chart and realizing now you can get TV deals at regional and written guys anytime (keep in mind as to not ruin my credibility it's been a long time since I've played lower level feds as I just have more fun playing a WWE), I think having TNA at Regional would make a lot of sense. They are light years behind WWE and in theory by the chart their Main Eventers would be a 70 at the highest outside of former WWE guys. Which makes sense. It explains why a guy like Matt Hardy could come in and still be a big deal in TNA when in WWE he was fodder, or a guy like Christian can come in and be treated like the next coming of Christ (no pun intended) in TNA. Having it set up this way WWE would only be after the cream of the crop from TNA unless they spotted an amazing in ring talent either on the mic or ring work and scoop them up because of it.

Once you go down to Regional, you're going past "be realistic for TNA's rating!" and down to outright TNA hate there. Even if you're going to say "TNA's worthless, I would personally say TNA should be 0% Backyard, and even that's selling it too high!", bare minimum in the game TNA has to be at least Cult just so that they can keep the "former WWE guys" who'd be above 70 overness. I think TNA being national "is" fair enough, especially since EWR will always be too easy to get a promotion back up to Global/Regional. Even if TNA can't break into Global, or if you argue, National in game, just crank up the Advertising budget and you're Global within about a year or two.

[pokerfreak]

Isn't TNA's top guys on written deals anyway? So they shouldn't have any problem keeping them as long as they are on a written deal. For the record I dont mind TNA.

[pokerfreak]

Isn't TNA's top guys on written deals anyway? So they shouldn't have any problem keeping them as long as they are on a written deal. For the record I dont mind TNA.

[Hornswoggle4PM]

A lot of TNA guys were (not sure if they still are with recent updates) on open contracts so they could also work occasional shows at regional companies, but that isn't the most important thing here anyway. With the money they'd have to be paying them, the income for a regional promotion wouldn't be anywhere near enough and their TV ratings would see them kicked off air as soon as the game started. Seeing as they do have at least a cult following and have been trying to make themselves a national or even global company, there's no way that Regional would do them justice. Unless you're going to demote everyone but CZW, ROH, PWG and CHIKARA to small, but that just wouldn't make seem right to me. Besides, ROH shouldn't be below cult either, they have quite a lot of fans/followers(?) as it is.

[mkpunk]

As for debuts only go into the midcard, most have. The only I can think of who were instant stars were Hogan in 84, Big Show and Jericho in 99, the Radicalz in 00 and The Shield in 12. Every other initial debut in WWE were midcard acts at best. That doesn't mean say an AJ Styles would be treated as just a midcarder upon debut and get the huge Jericho style intro.

Flair, Goldberg, Steiner second time round to an extent, Luger went straight into a program with Perfect, Foley straight against Undertaker. I'm sure there'll be others earlier than that. Warrior? When there was a big alternative you could use those guys as stars.

Foley was the only non champion out of that list and was completely redone. Luger was repackaged too but he was put into an upper-card program to start (then moved onto a Bret Hart house show feud.) Flair was pushed to the top same as Goldberg and Steiner.

I agree steals were bigger back in the attitude era and even the territory days but that doesn't mean TNA guys couldn't be treated as big deals, and I am not even talking about the former WWE guys.

Isn't TNA's top guys on written deals anyway? So they shouldn't have any problem keeping them as long as they are on a written deal. For the record I dont mind TNA.

A majority of TNA guys now are on written deals because they lock them up to prevent them to be on IPPV (mainly for DGUSA and ROH) except OVW guys (due their previous relationship.)

A lot of TNA guys were (not sure if they still are with recent updates) on open contracts so they could also work occasional shows at regional companies, but that isn't the most important thing here anyway. With the money they'd have to be paying them, the income for a regional promotion wouldn't be anywhere near enough and their TV ratings would see them kicked off air as soon as the game started. Seeing as they do have at least a cult following and have been trying to make themselves a national or even global company, there's no way that Regional would do them justice. Unless you're going to demote everyone but CZW, ROH, PWG and CHIKARA to small, but that just wouldn't make seem right to me. Besides, ROH shouldn't be below cult either, they have quite a lot of fans/followers(?) as it is.

The majority of the talent who have open deals are in OVW. This includes Hannah Blossom, Holly Blossom, Jessie, Lie'D Tapa, Rob Terry, Rockstar Spud, Sam Shaw and Taryn Terrell. Everyone else is under written deals now.

[pokerfreak]

Any random yard tard could be treated as a big deal in WWE or any company for that matter. The point is he wouldn't be that popular. Taking a look at Bills data which I'm just using for reference. AJ Styles is 89 and Booby Roode is 87. Meaning they are more over than most of the WWE roster and pretty much on par with their top guys outside of Cena and Punk. I'm not sure how this is logically even possible considering that most of the wrestling world barley knows what TNA is let alone who is in that company. The only reasonable logic I can think of is that a) someone is way overstating how popular TNA really is and b) guys are being treated on how over they are in that company and not in the grand scheme of things. If its the latter than the top guys in every promotion should be in the high 80's. Which I don't think anyone would agree with. Which brings me back to me not seeing any reasonable logic for that kind of overness on guys who virtually have little exposure or audience recognition in the grand scheme of things. The further down in promotions you go the worse it seems to get too. In ROH, Nigel, Steen and the briscoes are low 70.meaning they are on par with a Goldust. Not to mention that they are just as over as X-Pac who while not on tv now a days would still be a much bigger draw than any of those 3 even on an indy show. What would have to happen is a rehaul o fthe entire database or a new database made. Where we look at WWE's roster and scale back from there even possibly scaling back some of WWE's roster. The scale back the wages on everyone so they are not making more money than they should be and then scale back the promotions.

[OGpistolpete]

I'm not sure how this is logically even possible considering that most of the wrestling world barley knows what TNA is let alone who is in that company.

This statement nullifies any legitimacy to your comments.