Can you trust people who work/run instrument stores?

[Quom]

Probably a really odd question I know. My boyfriend thing has just taken up the violin, his teacher has been really non-committal about recommending one for him (he's currently renting, she owns the violin he's renting, she doesn't sell them, I think it's more that she doesn't teach that many beginners and probably hasn't bought one in years and has no idea). He's currently really a bit shit at it, but he has just started so that bit's totally fine. But the point is he has no idea how to play one so can't just walk into a store and be all 'yeah that one sounds the nicest and feels the best to play' or whatever. 

I don't think anyone on here plays the violin and online reviews are basically useless since A.) all of the reviews are English or American and we don't seem to carry many of the same violins (or even more annoyingly they re-name them) and B.) From what I can gather a proper store basically pulls everything off the violin and sets it back up so everything is perfect (might remove and use a new tail piece, plane bits off, swap the pegs, adjust the footbridge, fit the bridge correctly etc etc it isn't just putting strings on or whatnot).

With most things I just research the ever living shit out of them and end up being able to tell you the best fridge/washer/tv/whatever in a price range. Unfortunately because it's all to some degree subjective - with apparently objectively really shit violins that are just shit and terrible and not fit for the name and if you buy one you're a loser bringing great shame upon yourself with your violin shaped object and will deservedly be mocked by those who know more than you - I'm sort of at a loss. Which if it was something like a beginner's guitar it wouldn't be such a massive deal since in comparison they're relatively cheap, but this is a $1000-1500 'investment' that he can't really afford to get wrong.

So after all that rambling I basically just want to know: if you walk into your average instrument store are they actually going to help you find the best instrument for you and your budget, or are they more akin to a commission based racket where they will be itching to unload some shitty piece of plywood and claim some prize from their boss for doing so?  

[METALMAN]

They're usually on commission - in the UK at least. But on the other hand you can expect them to have a decent amount of knowledge - and have a lot of passion for - the product they are selling. So it balances out, perhaps. 

I'd look for a place with a decent refund policy. Also, I don't think I've ever bought an instrument without trying it before I bought it.

[MDK]

I bought some new strings for my bass and the lad in the shop was very helpful.

[King Ellis]

4 hours ago, MDK said:

I bought some new strings for my bass and the lad in the shop was very helpful.

Even when you insisted on repeating your joke about needing a new G string.

[MDK]

14 minutes ago, Ellisnezer Scrooge said:

Even when you insisted on repeating your joke about needing a new G string.

He completely no sold my joke about a broken banjo string

[Quom]

5 hours ago, metalman said:

They're usually on commission - in the UK at least. But on the other hand you can expect them to have a decent amount of knowledge - and have a lot of passion for - the product they are selling. So it balances out, perhaps. 

I'd look for a place with a decent refund policy. Also, I don't think I've ever bought an instrument without trying it before I bought it.

I think I'm going to tell him to just pay the premium (can add up to a 40% premium for the same violin) and go to a luthier rather than a music store that has a 'string expert'.

He will try them out, it's more that they need breaking in (and the strings they've put on can make a massive difference as well as tail piece and bridge). The biggest issue with crap ones is that they fall out of tune easily, but not fast enough that you'd find it out playing it for a few seconds/minutes (and I'm not sure he could tell anyway >_>).

So unless you've had a lot of experience there's the potential a really shit one will sound/look better on the day than a good one (kind of like TVs where a store will fiddle around with the colours as well as prioritising the source so the tv they want to sell looks better than the alternatives on the floor).  

[Pizza]

The best thing to do is buy from a place that focuses on lessons. Even if he already has a private teacher, a place that does lessons is invested in building long term relationships with their customers and are much less likely to look for a quick buck by selling junk. 

[VerbalPuke]

Let me page the Midget...he works/worked at a music store. From my experience, they are usually trust worthy, but I've never dealt with a violin. Typically the guitarist/bass players/drummers etc. are down to earth and happy to help a beginner pick out the right bit of gear they need to get started.

I highly recommend you find a violin forum as well. It sounds silly, but I am a member of a Les Paul forum and the guys on there are incredibly knowledgeable/experienced/helpful so it may help you find your answer.

@thatshortguy

[Nerf]

Obviously there's no hard and fast rule, but it's my experience that musicians tend to value their passion over making money. I've actually had music shop guys inform me that I could get something cheaper or do the work needed myself or whatever, effectively costing themselves a payday through honesty.

[apsham]

The two music stores in my area are full to the brim with older guys who are lifelong musicians and younger men and women who are in local bands around here. I know a lot of them and approaching them to talk about something is always great because they are passionate for the most part, and many of them - being musicians - understand when I might want to be looking more towards something with a lower price point, etc.

It's almost entirely why when I actually got money I went back to those places to make any kind of music related purchases I had to do. A local store is the only place in town I could find Audio-Technica headphones, etc - I love music stores.

[thatshortguy]

14 hours ago, VerbalRick said:

Let me page the Midget...he works/worked at a music store. From my experience, they are usually trust worthy, but I've never dealt with a violin. Typically the guitarist/bass players/drummers etc. are down to earth and happy to help a beginner pick out the right bit of gear they need to get started.

I highly recommend you find a violin forum as well. It sounds silly, but I am a member of a Les Paul forum and the guys on there are incredibly knowledgeable/experienced/helpful so it may help you find your answer.

@thatshortguy

Ring and ding ding, banana phone.  VP's on point (per usual), as finding a dedicated forum can help you either assist others or find answers to some more in-depth stuff.

For stringed orchestral instruments, it's incredibly time consuming for even someone experienced with it.  Example:  if you take all the strings off at once, you'll have to reset intonation by putting the bridge back where it was (it's held down by the weight of the strings).  Worse yet is if the sound post is knocked loose, as you have to used specialized tools just to see what the hell ya doin'.  That's to say nothing of actually stringing the thing, which can be a pain to thread through the tuning posts and just get up to tension.

There's a ton to touch on here ( ), so I'll go back through and hit on certain posts as I can.

On 3/1/2016 at 05:28, Quom said:

Probably a really odd question I know. My boyfriend thing has just taken up the violin, his teacher has been really non-committal about recommending one for him (he's currently renting, she owns the violin he's renting, she doesn't sell them, I think it's more that she doesn't teach that many beginners and probably hasn't bought one in years and has no idea). He's currently really a bit shit at it, but he has just started so that bit's totally fine. But the point is he has no idea how to play one so can't just walk into a store and be all 'yeah that one sounds the nicest and feels the best to play' or whatever. 

I don't think anyone on here plays the violin and online reviews are basically useless since A.) all of the reviews are English or American and we don't seem to carry many of the same violins (or even more annoyingly they re-name them) and B.) From what I can gather a proper store basically pulls everything off the violin and sets it back up so everything is perfect (might remove and use a new tail piece, plane bits off, swap the pegs, adjust the footbridge, fit the bridge correctly etc etc it isn't just putting strings on or whatnot).

With most things I just research the ever living shit out of them and end up being able to tell you the best fridge/washer/tv/whatever in a price range. Unfortunately because it's all to some degree subjective - with apparently objectively really shit violins that are just shit and terrible and not fit for the name and if you buy one you're a loser bringing great shame upon yourself with your violin shaped object and will deservedly be mocked by those who know more than you - I'm sort of at a loss. Which if it was something like a beginner's guitar it wouldn't be such a massive deal since in comparison they're relatively cheap, but this is a $1000-1500 'investment' that he can't really afford to get wrong.

So after all that rambling I basically just want to know: if you walk into your average instrument store are they actually going to help you find the best instrument for you and your budget, or are they more akin to a commission based racket where they will be itching to unload some shitty piece of plywood and claim some prize from their boss for doing so?  

1.  Renting is a great way to get your feet wet with an instrument, but you'll need to figure out quickly if you want to stick with it and make sure there are no termination fees if you bring back the rental.  May I advise the Stagg EF-VN 4/4 if you want to purchase a decent new one on the cheap?  Look for anything with a solid top and made of actual wood.  You should be able to find a lot of bundles (case/bow(s)/rosin/etc.) for well under 250, too.

2.  Orchestral instruments demand a lot of patience from, well, everyone at first.  That said, anyone who mocks whatever instrument you chose (short of a First Act) deserves a crotch punch.  I've never been able to afford an American-made guitar, but I know how to make even the crappiest axe at least do the damn thing it's supposed to do.

3.  If a place doesn't do commission:  beware those who just do not give a fuck anymore.  If a place does commission:  find someone who will tell you a negative thing about what you're looking at.  If someone or something doesn't pass your smell test, GTFO (politely, of course, as brick music stores are becoming more rare and you do not want to burn bridges).

20 hours ago, Quom said:

He will try them out, it's more that they need breaking in (and the strings they've put on can make a massive difference as well as tail piece and bridge). The biggest issue with crap ones is that they fall out of tune easily, but not fast enough that you'd find it out playing it for a few seconds/minutes (and I'm not sure he could tell anyway >_>).

All strings will fall out of tune quickly at the start.  That's just physics at work (the strings are wanting to return to their original form, yo.  WHY YA STRETCHIN' SO MUCH, BRAH?!)  I tend to recommend Red Label Super-Sensitive strings (y'know, for the violin's pleasure).  Go around $25 in the States and aren't the cheapest, but they tend to last -- especially if he takes care of them (wipes them down after playing/conditions the instrument with some Finger Ease or lemon oil.

[Quom]

Thanks heaps Midget.

We don't have the Stagg. Likewise we don't seem to have Australian forums (at least anything current). The naming of instruments is really annoying as well, we call it the Gliga Professional but it's named the Gliga Gama in America (or Gliga 1 being the Gems), Stentor does the same thing with the violin having a name in Australia (and thankfully the UK) and just being a number in America. Personally I think it's a pretty shitty thing to do since it meant double the research (needing to find out which are recommended and then what they're actually called here).

1.) He's renting at the moment, but she's charging $80 quarterly and no rent to buy or whatever which is a shame as he likes the one he's playing (it's a Strad repro from Germany), he has decided he wants to continue so continuing to rent is basically dead money (especially at the rate he's paying).

2.) Check some forums and see what teachers are saying. I don't think I've ever seen so many stuck up snobby dickweasels. It seems to be particularly rife in America with some teachers refusing to teach kids if their violin cost under $500. It reminds me of people that do horse shows. But violins do supposedly hold their value relatively well provided you buy something decent and look after it. He seems dead keen to go this route since he figures it saves him upgrading (potentially ever since he's never planning to do it professionally or whatever).

3.) I've finally managed to find somewhere with a decent range (they have 3-4 outfits in his price range). The best part is there is another luthier/violin shop quite close (which sells one violin the other doesn't). So it looks like he'll be able to go to at least two shops. Plus both places do the full upgrade as part of their price (better strings and making sure everything is setup properly, including making alterations where necessary). Both places look pretty legit, one has a 'string team' and a luthier on staff, the other is run by 2 luthiers and someone that plays strings in the orchestra. 

[LL!]

On 3/1/2016 at 14:20, Ellisnezer Scrooge said:

Even when you insisted on repeating your joke about needing a new G string.

G(string)od bless you.

[thatshortguy]

41 minutes ago, Quom said:

Thanks heaps Midget.

We don't have the Stagg. Likewise we don't seem to have Australian forums (at least anything current). The naming of instruments is really annoying as well, we call it the Gliga Professional but it's named the Gliga Gama in America (or Gliga 1 being the Gems), Stentor does the same thing with the violin having a name in Australia (and thankfully the UK) and just being a number in America. Personally I think it's a pretty shitty thing to do since it meant double the research (needing to find out which are recommended and then what they're actually called here).

1.) He's renting at the moment, but she's charging $80 quarterly and no rent to buy or whatever which is a shame as he likes the one he's playing (it's a Strad repro from Germany), he has decided he wants to continue so continuing to rent is basically dead money (especially at the rate he's paying).

2.) Check some forums and see what teachers are saying. I don't think I've ever seen so many stuck up snobby dickweasels. It seems to be particularly rife in America with some teachers refusing to teach kids if their violin cost under $500. It reminds me of people that do horse shows. But violins do supposedly hold their value relatively well provided you buy something decent and look after it. He seems dead keen to go this route since he figures it saves him upgrading (potentially ever since he's never planning to do it professionally or whatever).

3.) I've finally managed to find somewhere with a decent range (they have 3-4 outfits in his price range). The best part is there is another luthier/violin shop quite close (which sells one violin the other doesn't). So it looks like he'll be able to go to at least two shops. Plus both places do the full upgrade as part of their price (better strings and making sure everything is setup properly, including making alterations where necessary). Both places look pretty legit, one has a 'string team' and a luthier on staff, the other is run by 2 luthiers and someone that plays strings in the orchestra. 

Manufacturers do that crap for everything (Toyota Hilux trucks were named differently here until recently) and I loathe it.  Stentor's not a bad manufacturer (we had some traded in that were surprisingly good for the money), but it's absolutely the time to get out of that rental.  Damn shame that a lot of the resources feature really snobby folks, though.  I see it a lot in orchestral and piano teachers.  Cost them quite a few students, too.

[Quom]

I forgot to update this >_> We drove there, the woman was lovely and super helpful. I expected it to take like 20 minutes, instead they had 3 violins all ready and she played each one, then let him play each one, then swapped the shoulder rest, then did it all again, then changed the chin rest and did it all again, then told him how great he was for a beginner and was just totally lovely (and spent like 2 hours with him).

She was just super honest and nice. Like one of the violins was $1600, we went there with every intention of buying it, instead he decided he preferred the one that was $800 which she said made sense (the $1600 one was just like a really pure but flat version of the note so would be great for an orchestra but by itself just sounded boring I guess). Plus there wasn't really much pressure to upsell or whatever, like he did buy a bow but that's because she said whilst the one that came with it was fine, she used one that was $50 more and when he tried it it did make a difference and it seemed like an honest suggestion as it was more a 'if you want something noticeably better that won't break the bank'. Same with the bag, it was more a 'if you want something a bit nicer here's the options and how much more it would be' rather than being an 'OMG YOUR VIOLIN MIGHT DIE WITHOUT THIS'. So basically he walked out with a violin, sexy bow, a snazzy bag complete with a humidity dial thing (can I just say bags seem stupidly cheap, like compared to a laptop bag or a sports bag they seem really good value), spare strings, a music stand all for something like $500 less than he went in expecting to spend just on a violin with stock stuff. Plus for some reason she put everything through at a 20% discount so it wasn't like she was ever aiming to hit the original $1600 they could have expected.