SDM's Next Game

[DFF]

You know what the problem with this argument is? There is no cast iron correct answer.

Generally, no lynches are seen by the majority to be a bad thing, as the lynch is the town's main weapon against the scum.

However, there is an equally valid counter argument in place that, in an open game of this (small) size, that a 'random' lynch is actually more harmful than a no lynch.

And now we have reached a stale mate between the two arguments above. The problem is, no one can correctly, 100% argue either one - as they both have valid points. What doesn't help is that, it's no a straight forward statistical situation, with regards the latter argument. The argument put forward is that there is a 2 in 9 chance of hitting scum vs a 7 in 9 chance of hitting town. However, that isn't even accurate in itself, as that doesn't take into account the equivalent debating and reasoning skills of each player - they are not going to be equal, and some players will argue their points better than others. This distorts the above statistical argument.

Out of what we have so far, a no lynch seems preferable. I, however, would prefer that we discuss as much as possible every facet of everything put forward so that - even if we fuck up in this day phase (regardless of what decision we make) - tat we have more evidence to analyse down the line.

To reiterate, I don't think we can lynch someone for wanting a 'no lynch' in this specific scenario, as the logic behind it is sound. Equally, I don't think that someone pushing for a lynch over no lynch on simply that principle alone can be considered scum, either. It's just two different view points on game tactics - neither are necessarily scum 'tells'.

[Pesci]

Oh, I don't think we should no lynch at all. I couldn't care less about the abilities. They're just there to supplement our main method of finding scum, which is to discuss in this thread. In games this size we have a pretty good record of lynching scum in the first day anyway.

[-A-]

I completely agree, which is why I hate the argument that we should No Lynch on Day One. For some reason when we (as a group) manage to produce good leads on the first day in traditional games, but not themed ones. Why? Because we actually bother looking. Almost all of the shitty reads and lazy lynches come from wanting to get to the action of the night period. When we're left to our own devices in a traditional game, we're actually pretty good at finding scum. Thinking back, how many Trad games have had two scum taken out in the first three days? Plenty.

[SeanDMan]

More talk or Molly dies.

[Molly]

Change Vote: Ace

I really don't know where I stand on the no lynch v lynch situation but this being my first time playing a game like this, I'm leaning towards lynching someone.

No the Ace vote wasn't for suggesting the no lynch, it was comparing the quality of your contributions to the game so far to that of the other players.

Before anyone points the obvious out, yes I see the irony.

[-A-]

Change Vote: TEOL

Hasn't posted in a couple of days. Ace still gives me the heebie-jeebies, but we might as well get everyone involved before Molly dies.

[SeanDMan]

Vote Count:

Ace: 1 (Molly)

-A-: 1 (Pesci)

Pesci: 1 (Pizzamonkey)

TEOL: 1 (-A-)

No Lynch: 1 (Ace)

Five to lynch.

[SeanDMan]

Alright, this game has been moving a bit too slowly for my tastes, so.

2 hour deadline.

[TEOL]

Ugh. I hate lynch circles.

Vote: Molly as it'll presumably save time.

[DFF]

Vote TEOL

Your last post come across a bit like 'Guys, we might as well vote Molly because she'll be modkilled anyway, quick lets dogpile her so that I can't possibly be voted for'.

[Plubby]

So I was kind of expecting a PM if i'd gotten in to the subgame. I shouldn't have made any assumptions when it comes to Sean. But i'm here now!

I have had a longstanding, passionately-argued opinion about the crux of the issue.

I think jumping on somebody for proposing a no lynch is a much, much more common and more effective way of "blending in" and trying to appear as a townie. Nobody's going to argue with the "sound logic" that you don't find any scum when you vote for a no lynch. You also doesn't find any of the majority of townies in the game. I've never understood what makes it a scummy move. And as for the pressure vote thing, he's already explained his reasoning and it makes sense even if it does ignore the point of the game (to discuss and find scum) a little - what else is he gonna say? I genuinely don't understand what makes people keep jumping on others for voting for a no lynch when it never pays off and everything said about it being a scummy move is consistantly proven wrong.

You are the best player on EWB historically and I flat-out cannot believe you said any of this.

However, there is an equally valid counter argument in place that, in an open game of this (small) size, that a 'random' lynch is actually more harmful than a no lynch. .

There is a critical difference here. The difference is the difference between "Playing to Win" and "Playing Not to lose". Lynching people is actively trying to win the game. No-lynching is tacit endorsement of the status quo. To rely on abilities. To go on autopilot. Which is exactly what the mafia wants us to be doing.

The thing with giving the mafia a "free kill" which is mathematically likely to aid the mafia is flagrantly ridiculous. You gave them a free pass if you don't. Not a free kill if you do. I would put forward that in a small game it is WORSE to no-lynch purely because we need to use every turn we can to the best of our ability. When I won Perfect Ten mafia as the don, I would have given up a digit for a no-lynch. The other downside to no-lynching in a small game is that while you can draw more information relating to interactions between players by having the mafia make a kill, giving you a better chance of lynching scum - you have to dance to the mafia's tune. You give the side that already has an informational advantage sole control over the information that can be inferred by interactions between deceased and alive - exacerbating said (already formidable) informational edge.

Voting no-lynch is basically never correct, but it is more forgivable in certain circumstances. Large games it is...kinda okay...to give up a turn. In a small game it is basically horrendous but I could *maybe* see it in the midgame because it exposes more about the relationships between players. It is abhorrent play on turn one of a nine player game though. Absolutely unforgivable.

[Pesci]

I've even said I don't want to no lynch. At all. It's right up there! I didn't say I agreed with Ace's reasoning, just that I could understand it. It's sound. Personally I'd never take an approach that passive because the aim is to find the scum and if we ignore our best weapon, we won't do that. But I don't think it's scummy play and I don't see why anybody would mention it when they know full-well how much everybody shits on it.

[SeanDMan]

Vote Count:

Ace: 1 (Molly)

-A-: 1 (Pesci)

Pesci: 1 (Pizzamonkey)

TEOL: 1 (-A-)

No Lynch: 1 (Ace)

Molly: 1 (TEOL, DFF)

Five to lynch.

Also, yesterdays 24 hour deadline has yielded almost no discussion and expires in 2 hours. So it looks like we're going to no lynch by default.

[Ace]

That might be, because it was a 2 hour deadline yesterday, Sean

[SeanDMan]

...that was a typo. Oops. Okay. Well, twenty four more hours then. If there is no consensus by then, no lynch.

[TEOL]

Change Vote: DFF

Part OMGUS, part the fact that Molly obviously wasn't really going to be modkilled so taking that part of my post seriously, rather than the part that pretty much agreed with DFF's last post before that, combined with the fact I was only posting in response to getting pressure voted, makes it come off as desperate to me.

[DFF]

Change Vote: DFF

Part OMGUS, part the fact that Molly obviously wasn't really going to be modkilled so taking that part of my post seriously, rather than the part that pretty much agreed with DFF's last post before that, combined with the fact I was only posting in response to getting pressure voted, makes it come off as desperate to me.

This makes me laugh, and I'll tell you why...

Part OMGUS

- not a valid reason to vote.

part the fact that Molly obviously wasn't really going to be modkilled so taking that part of my post seriously

- not necessarily obvious. At all. This then make the second part of the quote redundant.

rather than the part that pretty much agreed with DFF's last post before that

- which part exactly was that? My previous post was the one where I argued the merits of no lynch vs a random lynch. TEOL's post makes no mention of this.

combined with the fact I was only posting in response to getting pressure voted

- is not an excuse for poor play.

makes it come off as desperate to me

- Pot. Kettle. Black.

Oh, and for clarify, I have included all of TEOL's posts in this game (the only one omitted is his first post in the thread where he signed up).

Shut up pizza.

OK, so apparently we're dealing with a modified Dethy set up, which is going to require a lot more openness than I'm usually happy with once people start using this night abilities. Split's right, we're going to have to look at what results people get to figure who is who. The point that interests me, though, is this analyst role. Can't say I've ever heard of it before, and more to the point, surely whoever has it will know straight off the bat what their ability is, which should make things a little easier.

What did I do?

More discussion or I kill Molly.

To be honest, I'm cool with that.

Ugh. I hate lynch circles.

Vote: Molly as it'll presumably save time.

Change Vote: DFF

Part OMGUS, part the fact that Molly obviously wasn't really going to be modkilled so taking that part of my post seriously, rather than the part that pretty much agreed with DFF's last post before that, combined with the fact I was only posting in response to getting pressure voted, makes it come off as desperate to me.

TEOL has made no valid argument for lynching Molly, and doesn't really reference anyone else's either. I believe that TEOL is either scum, or being elitist (and therefore unhelpful) by going after Molly without, at least, articulating exactly why.

And no, I'm not buying the 'to move things along' bollocks. This is a small game, and player don't get to just breeze through lynches with posts such as that.

My vote on TEOL stays, as he is by far the scummiest poster to date.

[TEOL]

Well, it's an... interesting post, I'll give you that. And perfectly fine except for one small point:

part the fact that Molly obviously wasn't really going to be modkilled so taking that part of my post seriously

- not necessarily obvious. At all. This then make the second part of the quote redundant.

Yes, it was obvious. Why are you even playing this game if you genuinely believe Sean would kill people offhand on whims? Do you really think you have no chance of winning if Sean thinks it'd be funny to kill you? Because if you really think that, you're playing awfully serious for a joke game. When I gave Sean's non-serious threat an equally non-serious response, you jumped on it and tried to turn it into a reason to lynch me. And that, as I said, is desperate.

Why is it me you're going after so violently, exactly? Going to all the effort of quoting every post I've made? Why not do that to pizza? Or Molly? Or Ace? They've all posted less than I have, and I haven't noticed them post anything so massively of relevance that they're clearly town. What did I do exactly to merit all this attention? And then the answer becomes obvious - I walked out on my last game, so you think you can put a little pressure on me and get rid of a townie that easily. There's no other reason why you'd single me out like that.

Oh, and what else was there? Being elitist? Yawn, never heard that one before. In case you haven't noticed, I haven't played or even read a Mafia game in months. For all I know, you guys think Molly's the greatest player ever, so it'd be pretty dumb to go after her like that. But hey, whatever you need to do to try and twist literally anything I say into a reason to lynch me.

[DFF]

No, it was not obvious.

However, devil's advocate and all that, and even going as far as to give you the benefit of the doubt and say your vote for Molly was a joke one - none of that absolves you of 'joke' voting for a player when it takes so little amount of votes to lynch someone.

You are either scum, and hoping your little 'joke' vote triggers a pile on, based on SDM's approaching deadline appealing to the 'no lynches are teh devil~!' camp - or you are town and placed a lazy arsed vote for any player without any regard for who you were voting for, which is criminal in a game as small as this. You voted without giving good reason.

As for why I am looking at you - you caught my attention with your (so called) joke vote. I went back and noticed that you hadn't contributed that much. The more I read the build up the that vote, the more it came across as a desperate 'I'm here, honest' type of vote - whether it be scum, or lazy townie. And honestly, you are coming across more of the former than the latter to me.

The reason why I am continuing to reply to your posts is simple - you have yet to convince me otherwise.

With regards you walking out of your last game - I wouldn't have even known that if you hadn't have told me, so it's irrelevant.

Also, how would I know if you have read a Mafia game recently? I myself only started playing again in Animaniacs, Anime and RW's game (that all started recently around the same time).

[SeanDMan]

Day one: No Lynch. Twenty Four Hour Deadline for night actions.