The Comic Book Thread (spoilers)

[Benji]

An interesting read from "Majunior632" on IGN.com after someone ranted about Tony Stark's "out of character" stance in Civil War. It's a very good read regardless of whether or not you agree...

Thing's he'd never do... like fight for something he believed in? You say he was portrayed as a prick, but I don't agree. Then again, people you don't agree with are usually viewed as pricks, so maybe that's the problem. The Negative Zone prison made perfect sense really. You obviously can't keep these people in normal prisons. Even superhero prisons have breakouts, just see New Avengers #1. Tony was concerned for public welfare, and locking criminals up until trial in a place they can't hurt anyone if the do break out of makes PERFECT sense. What trial you ask? Potentially the one that was coming once they had SPIN tech finished, so that the superpowered beings who didn't fall in line (thus choosing to be criminals) could be sentanced properly (and have their powers removed) just like we do the common criminal. After all, we take away a felon's right to own a firearm, so why can't we take away the weapons of people who refuse to abide by the law?

Tony Stark didn't used to be more than a guy. He was a rich industrialist with a heart problem and a drinking problem. Since Civil War, he's become so much more than that. If you're equating him to a villain, maybe that says something about you. The heads of the FBI and CIA aren't villains. The President may be unpopular, but he's not a villain. The manager at your local store of choice isn't a villain. Your boss isn't a villain. In all these instances, they're people who have to make decisions that are invariably going to rub some people the wrong way in the interest of something bigger, be it a nation, a corporation, or even a single store. In Civil War, Iron Man epitomized the idea that sometimes, what is right isn't popular.

Moving on, you say Spidey unmasking in public was out of character. I see it as a growth of character. He believed in something, believed what he was doing was right, and with the backing of his loved ones, he made a choice. Peter has always done that. It's just that this time, it was huge in comparrison to the choices he made in the past. He didn't "throw away everything he learned through years of fighting crime," he believed he would be safe, and his family protected. I bitch about the deal with the devil because it undid everything that's happened since I started reading comics. For no real reason, I might add. The Initiative annual #1 had already addressed his identity being public in an amazingly effective way. Aunt May died, yes, but good lord, it was going to happen anyway. I also look poorly on OMD because it took what was just about the only successful couple in comics, and the entire idea that the everyman who works hard and does what he feels is right and best, can eventually come out ahead. He can make a life, he can find a loving, understanding, and supportive wife. Spider-Man was the comic "proof" that eventually, if you don't give up and try hard enough, things work out. Eventually, May is going to die again anyways... she's been mid 50s to 60-something since the Spider-Man comics started. She's survived about a billion strokes, heart attacks, anneurisms, and whatever else. The way OMD is written, Pete may very well have made the same deal even if May had died from her old age. Peter's actions in Civil War make sense. OMD is just the most ungodly retcon I think I've ever read.

Civil War wasn't about knowing who everyone is. Besides, there's plenty of people you could argue that SHIELD probably didn't know. Civil War was about making people with super powers adhere to the exact same sort of rules the regular person has to follow. If you want a weapon, we want it catalogued and some level of training to come with it. I have to do that if I want a CWP for a pistol, a person who can blow up the state of Rhode Island should have to follow that at least.

As for Cap... you're wrong. Shifting gears to his side, I want to point out that Americans almost have a duty to stand up to the government when we feel it is corrupt. Captain America isn't a government pawn, he's the embodiement of the American ideals and dreams. Freedom is to be protected, and an obvious attempt at establishing a police state in order to bring people who are different (most of them not by choice) into custody for being different simply isn't acceptable. The government obviously is backing the actions of the registration forces, and no ammount of petitioning is going to change that. So what do you do? You get revolutionaries... you find your militia, and you protect the ideals you believe in. After all, that's what led to our nation breaking away from England in the first place.

Now, as for the Punisher... it does make sense. If you look at history, in the past the military has been a haven for criminals and the like. In a war, you can't always afford to be choosy. You take people who are good at what they do. Captain America told the Punisher when he took him in that he couldn't kill people. Punisher, by agreeing to work with the resisting heroes, agreed to those terms. Then Castle violated that agreement. I'd be pissed if someone lied to me too. As to whether or not Cap hurt his own cause, maybe. But there's collateral damage in a war. In my opinion, the only really out of character act was Captain America simply giving up. I do agree it debased everything he did and tried to do throughout the series. Plus, even with registered heroes, there is still going to be property damage. It's not like every Initiative team has a Class 3000 teleporter (anyone who gets the Marvel RPG reference gets mad props!) to teleport the raging battle to a Dragonball Z-like expanse of land that seems to be about a million miles across and yet has nothing but rock formations and the occasional tree.

Going back to the registration forces (and shifting gears again)... they were upholding the law. You either came willingly or you were brought in by force. I'll refer you to my earlier comments concerning the prison and trials, but in short... a drug dealer on the street is told by police to lay down and be arrested. If he doesn't, he's tased or shot. Simple enough concept, right? We all appreciate that. Cops don't bargain with the drug dealer to let him leave the city or get away for a while or any of that other crap. Now, ramp that same behavior up to superhuman levels and... ohh... you have the registration forces. Hmm. Doesn't seem like they're villainized to me. Tell me, do you have problems with authority?

Civil War wasn't an excuse to have big fights... that was World War Hulk. Civil War was a means to encourage you to look at your own stance on things like public safety versus personal privacy. Which takes precedent? Which is more important? It was a look at crime and punishment. We live in a world where the criminals often seem to have more rights than the victims, and yet if you try to do something about it (like limit a criminals rights, or expand the victim's rights,) you get called inhumane, or cruel, or whatever else they want to say. Civil War could also function as a means to make you consider your own beliefs, and potentially reanalize or reaffirm where you stand on real world issues.

[GhostMachine]

The problems with Civil War weren't just Tony Stark acting out of character, Cap surrendering the way he did, and Spider-Man revealing his identity to the public.

Tony, Reed Richards and Hank Pym did something VERY out of character that you would expect a group of super-villains to do, not a group of heroes, no matter their motivations: The Thor clone. (Has Thor found out about this yet since he returned?)

Civil War was written very badly, and I think that's what most people have a problem with, not the outcome: Reed defending the HUAC for fucking over his uncle was seriously out of character. The Thing leaving to go to France instead of fighting or sticking around and giving Reed a good chewing out what out of character. USAgent, who is a MEGA-dick going to Canada is out of character. And I want whoever approved that bs dialog that Sally Floyd spouted in Frontline where she berated Cap as out of touch because he doesn't use Myspace or watch NASCAR should really go swallow some cyanide. I'm ashamed that character has my last name, and if she hasn't already been killed off in the comics, I hope she either does get killed off or is one of the characters who turns out to be a Skrull....then gets headshotted by Bucky America or the Punisher.

Iron Man used to be one of my favorite characters, but frankly he's been fucked up for well over a decade. It started with that shitty storyline where he was being controlled by Kang and killed off the female Yellowjacket and a few other characters. Stark's actions during Civil War (except the whole Thor clone bull) are understandable, somewhat, but he still comes off as a jerk because of them. But I guess if Steve kind of forgave him (he did leave that letter to Tony in case of his death, after all), I guess anything's possible. However, I can't wait until the registration thing backfires, because I hope someone throws it in Stark's face when it does.

There's a big discussion going on at another board I go to about the whole Captain America situation right now that you might want to take a look at. It started back in October, but you might want to check out the last 2 or 3 pages. I hope some of you do look, because I'd like to get your opinions on what some of us think over there:

http://freedomreborn.net/simple/index.php?topic=44821.0

Edited February 2, 2008 by GhostMachine

[Johnny Latino Heat]

Tony, Reed Richards and Hank Pym did something VERY out of character that you would expect a group of super-villains to do, not a group of heroes, no matter their motivations: The Thor clone. (Has Thor found out about this yet since he returned?)

[MalaCloudy Black]

The Spider-Man thing is kind of moot, anyway, isn't it because

Spoiler: Click here to view

Spidey went and made that deal with Mephisto and now he's not married, Harry's alive and the public has no knowledge of who Spider-Man was. That pisses me off WAY more than the Iron Man deal, but that's just because I've loved Spider-Man since I was five years old and it seems waaaaay, waaaaaaay out of character for him to make a deal with MEPHISTO.

[Johnny Latino Heat]

The Spider-Man thing is kind of moot, anyway, isn't it because

Spoiler: Click here to view

Spidey went and made that deal with Mephisto and now he's not married, Harry's alive and the public has no knowledge of who Spider-Man was. That pisses me off WAY more than the Iron Man deal, but that's just because I've loved Spider-Man since I was five years old and it seems waaaaay, waaaaaaay out of character for him to make a deal with MEPHISTO.

[Benji]

The Spider-Man thing is kind of moot, anyway, isn't it because

Spoiler: Click here to view

Spidey went and made that deal with Mephisto and now he's not married, Harry's alive and the public has no knowledge of who Spider-Man was. That pisses me off WAY more than the Iron Man deal, but that's just because I've loved Spider-Man since I was five years old and it seems waaaaay, waaaaaaay out of character for him to make a deal with MEPHISTO.

Yes, but since it wasn't Spidey who approached him, it's alright! (seriously, Joe Q said that in an interview). It means Spidey was manipulated, he's not at fault at all! Because Spidey is a hero, he would never try to contact a villain such as you-know-who. Never mind the fact that he tried to contact Doom and Octavius before and probably just didn't think of contacting that guy.

I am SO pissed off at this Spidey thing. Seriously, I swore off 616 Spidey books until they fix this mess up. This makes the Clone Saga look like a masterpiece :thumbsdown:

Don't judge the follow up books by the mess that was BND, OMD has been VERY good and Dan Slott deserves 100% of the praise for the writing.

[Johnny Latino Heat]

The Spider-Man thing is kind of moot, anyway, isn't it because

Spoiler: Click here to view

Spidey went and made that deal with Mephisto and now he's not married, Harry's alive and the public has no knowledge of who Spider-Man was. That pisses me off WAY more than the Iron Man deal, but that's just because I've loved Spider-Man since I was five years old and it seems waaaaay, waaaaaaay out of character for him to make a deal with MEPHISTO.

Yes, but since it wasn't Spidey who approached him, it's alright! (seriously, Joe Q said that in an interview). It means Spidey was manipulated, he's not at fault at all! Because Spidey is a hero, he would never try to contact a villain such as you-know-who. Never mind the fact that he tried to contact Doom and Octavius before and probably just didn't think of contacting that guy.

I am SO pissed off at this Spidey thing. Seriously, I swore off 616 Spidey books until they fix this mess up. This makes the Clone Saga look like a masterpiece :thumbsdown:

[GhostMachine]

I think OMD and BND will eventually be undone....and I really hope so. I can think of three different outs right now.

And I won't be touching a Spider-Man book until it is undone. I thought the idea was horrible to begin with, and the way it was done makes it even worse.

[Your Mom]

Y Last Issue:

Spoiler: Click here to view

That was so sad! I literally couldn't help but cry when the panel with Ampersand's death happened

[Heel Turn]

I think OMD and BND will eventually be undone....and I really hope so. I can think of three different outs right now.

[GhostMachine]

I think OMD and BND will eventually be undone....and I really hope so. I can think of three different outs right now.

Is one of those outs calling in his marker with Loki?

Edited February 3, 2008 by GhostMachine

[Benji]

Ultimate X-Men #90

Spoiler: Click here to view

Eww, first they turn my favourite X-Baddie into some latino street thug, then they have him just be the larva for Apocalypse? Gay.

[Gabriel]

Benji... what are you talking about? I need to hear more. More. More. More.

Who, and what, and how? I'd read Wiki, but I want YOU to tell me.

[Benji]

About which part? History of Sinister or, what I'm assuming is the latter?

[Gabriel]

About which part? History of Sinister or, what I'm assuming is the latter?

[Benji]

About which part? History of Sinister or, what I'm assuming is the latter?

A bit of both actually. I know Sinister only from his brief appearance where he looked like he was just out of his mind, rather than actually much of a threat. Ultimate Sinister, that is.

The Big A is someone I hope they don't change too much from his regular counterpart. It's too classic.

Spoiler: Click here to view

You'll have to bear with a bit of poor knowledge on my side because I read Ultimate X-Men on and off because it's never sat well with me. Visually Apocalypse is the same, but he seems to have been 'inside' Sinister's mind for a long time, for ages everyone had thought Sinister was just crazy, Sinister himself looks and acts like a pure thug rather than the scientific gene tamperer we all know and love. He's been trying to kill ten mutants for their 'souls/energies and in the latest issue he finally manages it. I don't know whether to describe it as ascension, evolution or Sinister being a larvae, but he begins levitating and goes fetal, he is then shown on the surface (they were underground with the Morlocks) to have transformed into Apocalypse.

I don't know whether to be glad that pathetic reimagining of Sinister is gone, or whether to be pissed that my favourite X-Villain has been killed, even if it was a shit version of him. Of course, I could be being lead down another path and Apocalypse will revive Sinister into the man I know and love, but I just don't see the gangbanger to genetic genius switch happening without it feeling like them destroying the Ultimate version of the character.

[Gabriel]

Ah, yes... Sinister is one of my favorite X-Villains too. His appearances on the cartoon series were great, and despite being used as a tool to go back and fix the shit that past writers fucked up, Sinister was always one of the more interesting villains.

Ultimate Sinister was fucked from the get-go. I remember reading his first appearance where he was trying to shoot all the students. Made me sad, but I was still intrigued about where they were going with it.

[Fanku Kaibutsu]

Dunno if it belongs in it's own thread or not, but a trailer for the new X-Men cartoon is up on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GbR_8-jWwQ

It looks like it might be a continuation of X-Men Evolution, which is good, but the name is horrible and gives me the feeling that they'll focus predominantly on Wolverine, which is bad.

[Benji]

From what I gather the show is more Wolverine as the 'Headmaster' kind of role that Xavier filled, only sans the title, which I'm okay with, besides, if it is a continuation of Evolution then that means Wolverine will be used equally and properly.

EDIT: Amazing Spider-Man #549 preview pages on Dan Slott's blog for those still interested, they aren't his issues, but I would like to state Menace/Quasi-Goblin decapitating thugs with his glider = Awesome.

Edited February 6, 2008 by Benji

[TGC]

From what I gather the show is more Wolverine as the 'Headmaster' kind of role that Xavier filled, only sans the title, which I'm okay with, besides, if it is a continuation of Evolution then that means Wolverine will be used equally and properly.

EDIT: Amazing Spider-Man #549 preview pages on Dan Slott's blog for those still interested, they aren't his issues, but I would like to state Menace/Quasi-Goblin decapitating thugs with his glider = Awesome.

I would like to remind you all that everytime somebody reads BND Spidey Baby Jesus is molested with knives.