The 2010 NFL Thread

[Maxx]

Bravo.

[Maxx]

Being that I triple posted, I should also actually contribute to some sort of discussion.

I'm predicting a Packers/Steelers Super Bowl, and I'd be pleased with Jets Vs Anyone. I think it's well within the Bears ability to win, but the Packers are riding one hell of a momentum wave at the moment, that might be hard to overcome. Come to think of it, Jets/Bears would be wonderful given how much everyone hates Sanchez and Cutler, and I'm a fan of both of them. Plus as I already stated, Cutler at Media Day would be must see TV.

Also, Mel Kiper put out his first mock draft today. He's got Prince Amukamara falling to the Cowboys, which I'd be thrilled about. He's got Bowers falling to the Bengals at 4 and Blaine Gabbert as the first QB off the board to Arizona. Personally, I can't see the Cards passing on Cam Newton, too exciting a player to pass on after you just subjected your fan base to a season of Derek Anderson, Max Hall and John Skelton leading the least explosive offense in the league.

[Evil Chase K]

Ok, you simply don't read. I've officially hopped on the Maxx blinded viewpoint of you. Holy fuck man. I JUST FUCKING SAID it wasn't about Ben being good or not, or winning or not. Seriously, you didn't even read what I said. You simply jumped into your prime directive : BEN IS GOD, BEN DOES NO WRONG, I AM RIGHT BECAUSE I AM STEELER FAN YOU ARE ALL MISGUIDED AND SPEAK FALSE TRUTHS

Yes, the Steelers win and he's been a good QB up to this point in his career. It's also clear to everyone except you that the DEFENSE leads/carries that team. Guess what, it's not the first time it's happened in Pittsburgh. Bradshaw was a damn good QB and he won ... but is sure as fuck wasn't him that led that team. The Steal Curtain did. It isn't a knock on either player .. it's a fact.

Yeah, Ben's just along for ride. The way the defense drove down the field and scored the game winning TD in Super Bowl XLIII after the offense gave up that long pass to Larry Fitzgerald was a thing of beauty.

The way the defense came out and scored quickly in every playoff game in the lead up to Super Bowl XL was something else.

And the Tom Brady-lead Patriots won every Super Bowl by 3 TDs, and Peyton Manning wasn't carried by his defense and running game in the lead up to Super Bowl XLI.

Yeah, but that's mostly due to the defense being so dominant. Plenty of "game managers" won games in the post-season. In the overall body of work, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are far and away the #1 and #2 quarterbacks in the NFL right now, and are talked about in the discussion for greatest ever. Ben isn't there yet.

How do you judge QBs? Stats? Manning has had better WRs. Brady has had much better offensive lines (plus the whole cheating thing).

Not discounting his accomplishments at all, he's a great quarterback, and if he hadn't been suspended would probably be an MVP candidate this year, but his overall body of work, like I said, is nowhere near Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. And this is coming from someone who hates both of them.

Yeah Manning has had great stats over the years, he's done fuck all in the postseason. He's never carried his team to a Lombardi.

The great Tom Brady put up sick numbers for one season. The rest of the time he was winning Super Bowls by 3 points. How come when Brady does it, it's all on him (when he had a great defense for those Super Bowls) but when Ben does it, it's because he was carried by his defense?

Let's not forget, the Steelers had great defenses under Bill Cowher too. They didn't win anything until Ben came along. If he's carried as much as you guys say by his defense, why didn't the Steelers win anything under Bill Cowher until he came along?

[DMN in the House]

Cam Newton = Bust.

There, I said it.

[Meacon Keaton]

Yeah, but that's mostly due to the defense being so dominant. Plenty of "game managers" won games in the post-season. In the overall body of work, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are far and away the #1 and #2 quarterbacks in the NFL right now, and are talked about in the discussion for greatest ever. Ben isn't there yet.

How do you judge QBs? Stats? Manning has had better WRs. Brady has had much better offensive lines (plus the whole cheating thing).

I don't want to get into a big thing, because I do think Ben is a good quarterback, but Big Ben has had easily the best running game out of those three quarterbacks. That takes a hell of a load off of his shoulders.

[Meacon Keaton]

Cam Newton = Bust.

There, I said it.

I think you'd be hard to find anyone that would argue otherwise.

[PatDaMan]

Ok, you simply don't read. I've officially hopped on the Maxx blinded viewpoint of you. Holy fuck man. I JUST FUCKING SAID it wasn't about Ben being good or not, or winning or not. Seriously, you didn't even read what I said. You simply jumped into your prime directive : BEN IS GOD, BEN DOES NO WRONG, I AM RIGHT BECAUSE I AM STEELER FAN YOU ARE ALL MISGUIDED AND SPEAK FALSE TRUTHS

Yes, the Steelers win and he's been a good QB up to this point in his career. It's also clear to everyone except you that the DEFENSE leads/carries that team. Guess what, it's not the first time it's happened in Pittsburgh. Bradshaw was a damn good QB and he won ... but is sure as fuck wasn't him that led that team. The Steal Curtain did. It isn't a knock on either player .. it's a fact.

Yeah, Ben's just along for ride. The way the defense drove down the field and scored the game winning TD in Super Bowl XLIII after the offense gave up that long pass to Larry Fitzgerald was a thing of beauty.

The way the defense came out and scored quickly in every playoff game in the lead up to Super Bowl XL was something else.

And the Tom Brady-lead Patriots won every Super Bowl by 3 TDs, and Peyton Manning wasn't carried by his defense and running game in the lead up to Super Bowl XLI.

Yeah, but that's mostly due to the defense being so dominant. Plenty of "game managers" won games in the post-season. In the overall body of work, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are far and away the #1 and #2 quarterbacks in the NFL right now, and are talked about in the discussion for greatest ever. Ben isn't there yet.

How do you judge QBs? Stats? Manning has had better WRs. Brady has had much better offensive lines (plus the whole cheating thing).

Not discounting his accomplishments at all, he's a great quarterback, and if he hadn't been suspended would probably be an MVP candidate this year, but his overall body of work, like I said, is nowhere near Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. And this is coming from someone who hates both of them.

Yeah Manning has had great stats over the years, he's done fuck all in the postseason. He's never carried his team to a Lombardi.

The great Tom Brady put up sick numbers for one season. The rest of the time he was winning Super Bowls by 3 points. How come when Brady does it, it's all on him (when he had a great defense for those Super Bowls) but when Ben does it, it's because he was carried by his defense?

Let's not forget, the Steelers had great defenses under Bill Cowher too. They didn't win anything until Ben came along. If he's carried as much as you guys say by his defense, why didn't the Steelers win anything under Bill Cowher until he came along?

I would say that Ben is at the stage now that Tom Brady was at around the same period of time in his career. I'm not saying Ben can't become an all-time great, or what have you, just that he's not there yet.

And, to answer your question, I judge QBs by a lot of things. Stats are a big part of it, because, if you're a great QB, you can put up numbers whether you have a sub-par supporting cast or not. Brady will win the MVP this year with a bunch of no-names (besides Welker) at skill positions. Peyton still had a good year in spite of the lack of running game, and the fact that Dallas Clark (one of the best TEs) was replaced by Jacob Tamme (not).

Phillip Rivers, who, in my estimation, is anywhere from #3 to #6 (depending on how I feel about Brees and Rodgers at the time), still threw for a gazillion yards despite not having Vincent Jackson for most of the season, missing out on a few games from Gates, and throwing to a bunch of street FAs.

If I were absolutely pushed to "group" the QBs, I would put it something like this:

Peyton Manning

Tom Brady

Brees

Rodgers

Rivers

Roethlisberger

Now, I don't really think that going through all the QBs in the league is necessary, but you get my point, those guys in the 2nd group are all very close, but if Brady or Manning retired today, they would without a doubt be first ballot hall of famers, no question.

[Evil Chase K]

Yeah, but that's mostly due to the defense being so dominant. Plenty of "game managers" won games in the post-season. In the overall body of work, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are far and away the #1 and #2 quarterbacks in the NFL right now, and are talked about in the discussion for greatest ever. Ben isn't there yet.

How do you judge QBs? Stats? Manning has had better WRs. Brady has had much better offensive lines (plus the whole cheating thing).

I don't want to get into a big thing, because I do think Ben is a good quarterback, but Big Ben has had easily the best running game out of those three quarterbacks. That takes a hell of a load off of his shoulders.

Very true, but the Steelers weren't winning games because of their running game. They would pass early, get a lead, and then use the running game to finish teams off.

Even early in his career Ben was making plays with his arm to win games.

But the only year Peyton Manning won the Super Bowl he actually had a running game come playoff time. And he had a stout defense. Those combined were able to pick him up and make up for his less than stellar playoff performance.

My point is, no team in the NFL wins without both a good QB and a good defense. It doesn't happen. The 2000 Ravens are the lone exception.

Marginalizing Ben because he has a great defense is stupid. Especially when you consider that the 3 Super Bowls Brady won were won in seasons where they had spectacular defenses too.

And if you're going to play the "Ben has this and this and this" game then you have to acknowledge that both Brady and Manning have had better offensive lines in front of them. And for Ben to have a career YPA higher than both Manning and Brady says a lot because somehow he manages to be more efficient than those guys, with less of time in the pocket.

I'm not even arguing that Ben should be the unanimous #1 QB in the NFL. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. My argument is just that Ben is a lot closer to their level than anyone on this board gives him credit for.

[Toe]

Who do the Bills go with in the first round? Where do they pick?

[Evil Chase K]

I would say that Ben is at the stage now that Tom Brady was at around the same period of time in his career. I'm not saying Ben can't become an all-time great, or what have you, just that he's not there yet.

And, to answer your question, I judge QBs by a lot of things. Stats are a big part of it, because, if you're a great QB, you can put up numbers whether you have a sub-par supporting cast or not. Brady will win the MVP this year with a bunch of no-names (besides Welker) at skill positions. Peyton still had a good year in spite of the lack of running game, and the fact that Dallas Clark (one of the best TEs) was replaced by Jacob Tamme (not).

Phillip Rivers, who, in my estimation, is anywhere from #3 to #6 (depending on how I feel about Brees and Rodgers at the time), still threw for a gazillion yards despite not having Vincent Jackson for most of the season, missing out on a few games from Gates, and throwing to a bunch of street FAs.

So why don't we give the Super Bowl to whoever has the best stats?

There's also an argument that can be made that those guys put up better stats because they play in pass happy offenses.

There's only one stat, to me, that really tells you how good a QB is...Yards Per Attempt.

That will tell you how efficient a guy is.

Who cares if he throws for 4000 yards and the next guy throws for 3000 if the first guy has 100+ more passing attempts? I'll never understand that argument.

If I were absolutely pushed to "group" the QBs, I would put it something like this:

Peyton Manning

Tom Brady

Brees

Rodgers

Rivers

Roethlisberger

Now, I don't really think that going through all the QBs in the league is necessary, but you get my point, those guys in the 2nd group are all very close, but if Brady or Manning retired today, they would without a doubt be first ballot hall of famers, no question.

So then you would agree with the statement that Dan Fouts, Vinnie Testaverde, Drew Bledsoe and Fran Tarkenton are all better than Joe Montana?

[Meacon Keaton]

Yeah, but that's mostly due to the defense being so dominant. Plenty of "game managers" won games in the post-season. In the overall body of work, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are far and away the #1 and #2 quarterbacks in the NFL right now, and are talked about in the discussion for greatest ever. Ben isn't there yet.

How do you judge QBs? Stats? Manning has had better WRs. Brady has had much better offensive lines (plus the whole cheating thing).

I don't want to get into a big thing, because I do think Ben is a good quarterback, but Big Ben has had easily the best running game out of those three quarterbacks. That takes a hell of a load off of his shoulders.

Very true, but the Steelers weren't winning games because of their running game. They would pass early, get a lead, and then use the running game to finish teams off.

Even early in his career Ben was making plays with his arm to win games.

But the only year Peyton Manning won the Super Bowl he actually had a running game come playoff time. And he had a stout defense. Those combined were able to pick him up and make up for his less than stellar playoff performance.

My point is, no team in the NFL wins without both a good QB and a good defense. It doesn't happen. The 2000 Ravens are the lone exception.

Marginalizing Ben because he has a great defense is stupid. Especially when you consider that the 3 Super Bowls Brady won were won in seasons where they had spectacular defenses too.

And if you're going to play the "Ben has this and this and this" game then you have to acknowledge that both Brady and Manning have had better offensive lines in front of them. And for Ben to have a career YPA higher than both Manning and Brady says a lot because somehow he manages to be more efficient than those guys, with less of time in the pocket.

I'm not even arguing that Ben should be the unanimous #1 QB in the NFL. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. My argument is just that Ben is a lot closer to their level than anyone on this board gives him credit for.

It's not just this board that doesn't think he's near their level, though. People that are paid to cover the league for a living don't necessarily feel that way, either. Like you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at some point, you have to realize that aside from you and the other Pittsburgh faithful, that feeling isn't shared.

[Evil Chase K]

It's not just this board that doesn't think he's near their level, though. People that are paid to cover the league for a living don't necessarily feel that way, either. Like you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but at some point, you have to realize that aside from you and the other Pittsburgh faithful, that feeling isn't shared.

As someone who works with those people on a regular basis I can tell you that just because you're paid to cover the league doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.

I've heard shit in the press box from national writers that would make you shake your head.

I'm not arguing your point, I'm just saying that relying on the opinions of someone just because they're paid to cover football doesn't really mean much.

Also, if Ben wins the Super Bowl this year...I guarantee you some national writers will come around and start writing columns about it.

A few already have.

[Maxx]

Who do the Bills go with in the first round? Where do they pick?

They pick third, Kiper has them taking Marcell Dareus, DE from Alabama.

[naiwf]

Next season can we have an NFL thread and a Pittsburgh Steelers thread just so this shit doesn't evolve into Chase attempts to educate the unwashed EWB masses on the wonders of Roethlisberger every fucking year?

[Evil Chase K]

So who are they really going to pick?

[Maxx]

Next season can we have an NFL thread and a Pittsburgh Steelers thread just so this shit doesn't evolve into Chase attempts to educate the unwashed EWB masses on the wonders of Roethlisberger every fucking year?

Seconded.

[sahyder1]

For those wondering, if you get rid of the Brad Smith kickoff return to start the game and the Mewelde Moore safety you're looking at the Steelers having won that game 17-13. Mendenhall had almost 100 yards on the ground, and Wallace caught for more than 100. Sanchez, and the offense as a whole, had a poor day. With Polamalu playing the Jets are going to need to rely on their running game even more, and, well nobody runs on Pittsburgh. Sorry guys, the Jets are going to need the luckiest game in NFL history on Sunday.

Last I checked points from defenses and special teams counted too. It's fairly easy to twit statistics like that around. How about, Jets beat Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh without there offense really having to do anything. It was far from Sanchez's best game but you know what...he played a mistake free game. Can't ask for much more then that from a young QB. Yes, no one runs on the Steelers.....but the Jets were one of the two teams that did run on the Steelers this year. People have been knocking the Jets all year. I'm not guaranteeing a Jets win but saying they will "need the luckiest game in NFL history" is pretty dumb when they a) already beat this team this year and b)have repeatedly won on the road in the playoffs

Ok, you simply don't read. I've officially hopped on the Maxx blinded viewpoint of you. Holy fuck man. I JUST FUCKING SAID it wasn't about Ben being good or not, or winning or not. Seriously, you didn't even read what I said. You simply jumped into your prime directive : BEN IS GOD, BEN DOES NO WRONG, I AM RIGHT BECAUSE I AM STEELER FAN YOU ARE ALL MISGUIDED AND SPEAK FALSE TRUTHS

Yes, the Steelers win and he's been a good QB up to this point in his career. It's also clear to everyone except you that the DEFENSE leads/carries that team. Guess what, it's not the first time it's happened in Pittsburgh. Bradshaw was a damn good QB and he won ... but is sure as fuck wasn't him that led that team. The Steal Curtain did. It isn't a knock on either player .. it's a fact.

Yeah, Ben's just along for ride. The way the defense drove down the field and scored the game winning TD in Super Bowl XLIII after the offense gave up that long pass to Larry Fitzgerald was a thing of beauty.

The way the defense came out and scored quickly in every playoff game in the lead up to Super Bowl XL was something else.

And the Tom Brady-lead Patriots won every Super Bowl by 3 TDs, and Peyton Manning wasn't carried by his defense and running game in the lead up to Super Bowl XLI.

Yeah, but that's mostly due to the defense being so dominant. Plenty of "game managers" won games in the post-season. In the overall body of work, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are far and away the #1 and #2 quarterbacks in the NFL right now, and are talked about in the discussion for greatest ever. Ben isn't there yet.

How do you judge QBs? Stats? Manning has had better WRs. Brady has had much better offensive lines (plus the whole cheating thing).

Not discounting his accomplishments at all, he's a great quarterback, and if he hadn't been suspended would probably be an MVP candidate this year, but his overall body of work, like I said, is nowhere near Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. And this is coming from someone who hates both of them.

Yeah Manning has had great stats over the years, he's done fuck all in the postseason. He's never carried his team to a Lombardi.

The great Tom Brady put up sick numbers for one season. The rest of the time he was winning Super Bowls by 3 points. How come when Brady does it, it's all on him (when he had a great defense for those Super Bowls) but when Ben does it, it's because he was carried by his defense?

Let's not forget, the Steelers had great defenses under Bill Cowher too. They didn't win anything until Ben came along. If he's carried as much as you guys say by his defense, why didn't the Steelers win anything under Bill Cowher until he came along?

Chase, since you selectively want to pick one pick one drive in the Super Bowl to represent Roethlesberger's greatness....how about all of Super Bowl XL? 9 for 21, 0 TDs and 2 INTs. This is why people hate you. Yes, Roethlesberger has had a good run but he's been lucky enough to be in a position where he only has to manage games, just like Brady did in the years that Patriots won their Super Bowls. Please stop trying to compare him to Manning. He's not in the same zip code. Manning has never had the luxury to just go in there and manage the game. He's had to go out and throw the ball 45 times just because their defense has been that horrible for the most part.

Yes, Roethlesberger has won a lot of playoff games. Good for him. But lets not turn him into an all-time great. Had him and Peyton Manning swapped teams, Manning would have have 5 rings right now.

Edit: I don't care who writes those stories. Even with 3 rings he's not half the QB that Peyton Manning is.

Edited January 19, 2011 by sahyder1

[Evil Chase K]

Next season can we have an NFL thread and a Pittsburgh Steelers thread just so this shit doesn't evolve into Chase attempts to educate the unwashed EWB masses on the wonders of Roethlisberger every fucking year?

Chase, since you selectively want to pick one pick one drive in the Super Bowl to represent Roethlesberger's greatness....how about all of Super Bowl XL? 9 for 21, 0 TDs and 2 INTs. This is why people hate you. Yes, Roethlesberger has had a good run but he's been lucky enough to be in a position where he only has to manage games, just like Brady did in the years that Patriots won their Super Bowls. Please stop trying to compare him to Manning. He's not in the same zip code. Manning has never had the luxury to just go in there and manage the game. He's had to go out and throw the ball 45 times just because their defense has been that horrible for the most part.

:lmao:

Yes, Roethlesberger has won a lot of playoff games. Good for him. But lets not turn him into an all-time great. Had him and Peyton Manning swapped teams, Manning would have have 5 rings right now.

Manning would die behind the Steelers offensive line. He'd be sacked at least 8-9 times per game. No joke.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Evil Chase K

[Panni]

The idea that Ben Roethlisberger is better than Peyton Manning and Tom Brady is absolutely insane.

He's a great big game quarterback, but come on dude let's be serious, he's nowhere close to those two guys. They are both arguably in the top five quarterbacks of all-time. Right now I don't even consider Ben the best QB in the playoffs...Aaron Rodgers is head and shoulders above the rest. Rodgers just needs to prove that in the big spot.

[Evil Chase K]

The idea that Ben Roethlisberger is better than Peyton Manning and Tom Brady is absolutely insane.

He's a great big game quarterback, but come on dude let's be serious, he's nowhere close to those two guys. They are both arguably in the top five quarterbacks of all-time. Right now I don't even consider Ben the best QB in the playoffs...Aaron Rodgers is head and shoulders above the rest. Rodgers just needs to prove that in the big spot.

Rodgers is playing great football right now. He reminds me a lot of Ben.

We'll see what happens.