2011 MLB Season

[Meacon Keaton]

I didn't say Jeter was an all-time great. Every time we discuss this you make up some argument no one is making. You're on ignore now, because you can't fucking read.

To get off this stupid shit, on to something that maybe someone can read and actually understand:

Dan Uggla is on a 28-game hitting streak, yet he's hitting .220.

[sahyder1]

I'll edit this out until the next time someone wants to post a stupid Jeter defense

Edited August 8, 2011 by sahyder1

[EddieG]

Sa, he said you're on ignore.

[Hickey]

Sahyder, your arguments are full of biases and Yankee/Jeter hate. Seriously, if you don't think Jeter was a great player, then you don't understand baseball. The leadership and skills that he brought/brings to the table are incredible. He's such a class act and a true team player. That's why he's universally respected.

You're just creating arguments for the sake of arguing, just like you always do.

[livid]

I'll edit this out until the next time someone wants to post a stupid Jeter defense

I would just not post it.

Or at all, for that matter.

[gunnar hendershow]

And Jeter's career numbers indicate that had he been on any team other than the Yankees for his career he likely would have been the best player they had, the odds are over 65 percent here. Not the best player of his generation but definitely one of the great ones. You put him on Pittsburgh for his career and they toil about in last place but he still puts up stellar career numbers and goes down as the best Pirate since the 70s.

[Hickey]

Plus, Jeter did it in New York. Most athletes can't survive under the New York media pressure. He's done it for over 15 years. At a high level.

[9 to 5]

I am a Mets fan and even I would admit how good Jeter is. Sadly.

[naiwf]

I wasn't giving him the Jordan treatment. When I usually talk about Jeter's accomplishments, I'll bring up his 3000+ hits first. But those three guys' hits combined is more than 3000, so I had to use another combined stat for my argument. >_>

To be fair, when I said "here", I meant in NYC. Jeter doesn't get the same level of over the top hyperbole on EWB. As I've said before, so called diehards have tried to argue that Jeter had more to do with the 5 rings than Rivera and that he's a top 10 player in the history of baseball when he's barely a top 10 Yankee.

[Hickey]

He's still the best shortstop in Yankees history. If he's not first, he's second to Phil Rizzuto.

[sahyder1]

Sahyder, your arguments are full of biases and Yankee/Jeter hate. Seriously, if you don't think Jeter was a great player, then you don't understand baseball. The leadership and skills that he brought/brings to the table are incredible. He's such a class act and a true team player. That's why he's universally respected.

You're just creating arguments for the sake of arguing, just like you always do.

Arguing for arguing's sake would be what Meacon did earlier. There was no need to bring in the Jeter worship when kbusch22 made his SS reference. Jeter has been a good player....not great. There is a world of difference and it is not a knock on the guy but whatever reason people like you and Meacon feel the need to get defensive about it. I think it was Naiwf who mentioned earlier that Jeter's career numbers basically mirror Biggio yet no one outside Biggio's family tries to place him on that level. Just because you want to be a home doesn't mean me not liking the Yankees clouds my judgement. It doesn't stop me giving Rivera his due. It doesn't stop me from giving A-Rod his due as one of the top players not only of his era but all-time.

And Jeter's career numbers indicate that had he been on any team other than the Yankees for his career he likely would have been the best player they had, the odds are over 65 percent here. Not the best player of his generation but definitely one of the great ones. You put him on Pittsburgh for his career and they toil about in last place but he still puts up stellar career numbers and goes down as the best Pirate since the 70s.

Despite only playing there for seven years Barry Bonds' two MVP titles say hello. When we went over this a couple of weeks ago Naiwf came up with a list of about 15-20 names of position players alone who had better careers then Jeter and played in the last 15 years which again isn't a knock on the guy but it hardly makes him a "great" player. He's probably in the 30-40 range of guys who've played in the last 15 years but for whatever reason Yankee fans like to take that as a knock. When there have been guys like A-Rod, Pujols, Bonds, Gwynn, Guerrero, Henderson, Thome, Manny, Randy Johnson, Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Pedro, Halladay and Rivera who have played over the same time. Put some more thought to it and we could probably come up with a few more names. . If he was on another team he wouldn't have had the NY hype machine behind him so no nor would he necessarily have basically a career with multiple 30-50 HR guys hitting protecting him in the lineup. Which goes back to the whole point I brought up a couple of weeks ago. Anywhere outside of New York (and maybe Boston) he wouldn't have become so overrated to begin with and thus I doubt there would be this big divide over him. I went year by year with the Yankees and there were a couple of years where there 5-6 players better on his own team. If someone sat down and did a breakdown of every other team they could probably come up with more. Like I said, saying that someone is in the 30-40 range over the course of their career is hardly the insult Yankees fans make it out to be.

I am a Mets fan and even I would admit how good Jeter is. Sadly.

Again, not once has me or anyone else Jeter wasn't good.

[sahyder1]

With an off day tomorrow why the hell would you not send Rivera back out for a 2nd innings after he pitches a 9 pitch inning?

[gunnar hendershow]

I knew the point about Bonds would be dragged in but he's not a career Pirate nor was he a Pirate during the span of time where Jeter has been in the league. People associate Barry with saving baseball in SF, steroids, and being a genuine cunt.

[MalaCloudy Black]

Ex-batboy opens up about the Yankees clubhouse atmosphere

Sadly for a lot of you ( ), he pretty much has good things to say. As much as I dislike Jeter - and the Yankees - I have to begrudingly admit he sounds like a decent guy.

[sahyder1]

I knew the point about Bonds would be dragged in but he's not a career Pirate nor was he a Pirate during the span of time where Jeter has been in the league. People associate Barry with saving baseball in SF, steroids, and being a genuine cunt.

I didn't say he was a Pirate during Jeter's career. I was just posting that in response to your 1970s comment. When there are like 10-15 guys to have won multiple MVP awards and his sting in Pittsburgh being one of them I think that does qualify him as the greatest Pirate since Clemente. He was hitting anywhere from 25-35 HRs everywhere and stealing 35-50 SBs.

Ex-batboy opens up about the Yankees clubhouse atmosphere

Sadly for a lot of you ( ), he pretty much has good things to say. As much as I dislike Jeter - and the Yankees - I have to begrudingly admit he sounds like a decent guy.

No one here has accused of him an overall bad guy. There are stories like this that come out about a lot of locker rooms from time to time. Being a nice guy doesn't elevate you from a good ballplayer to a great one.

Edited August 8, 2011 by sahyder1

[naiwf]

Barroid should have won 3 straight MVPs in Pittsburgh, since that Terry Pendleton MVP is a joke. I know most people only remember the hulking Giants version of the guy, but pre-roids he was either 1 or 1A in all of baseball alongside Griffey Jr. I think the ironic thing is if he hadn't become such a devastating power hitter he probably would have ended up with 3,000+ hits, still come close to the 500 HR mark and ended up with 500+ SB to boot. Steroids or not, he is the greatest hitter AND best all around baseball player I've ever seen. If Pujols had any kind of speed he'd be in the mix to dethrone him, but he doesn't.

[Ananas]

Barroid should have won 3 straight MVPs in Pittsburgh, since that Terry Pendleton MVP is a joke. I know most people only remember the hulking Giants version of the guy, but pre-roids he was either 1 or 1A in all of baseball alongside Griffey Jr. I think the ironic thing is if he hadn't become such a devastating power hitter he probably would have ended up with 3,000+ hits, still come close to the 500 HR mark and ended up with 500+ SB to boot. Steroids or not, he is the greatest hitter AND best all around baseball player I've ever seen. If Pujols had any kind of speed he'd be in the mix to dethrone him, but he doesn't.

Maybe it's an AL/NL fan thing, but since I saw more of Seattle than Pittsburgh/SF during the 90s I tend towards Griffey as the best player I've ever seen. On a boxscore Bonds' numbers are just incredible and make him maybe the greatest player to ever play the game, but I have so many more memories of the Kid, like watching him smoke 3 off the Jays (2 off Clemens) in one game in '97.

I don't want to jump into yet another Jeter debate, just the whole thing about his numbers being similar to Craig Biggio's - they're not THAT similar (.312/.383/.449 vs Biggio's .281/.363/.433) but it's not really a knock against Jeter if they were. Because yes, while Biggio has been insanely unheralded, he also totally deserves to be in the Hall. And the thing about all those guys who had better offensive numbers - positional adjustment. Was Vladimir Guerrero a better hitter than Derek Jeter? Of course. But if you take someone playing passable defense at a corner outfield position and compare it to someone playing passable defense at SS (and yes, while he was not a gold glove caliber defender he was hardly a statue), the offensive expectations are completely different. Relative to Jeter, there was what, 1 better offensive shortstop during the last 15 years? And he ended up playing third base beside Jeter. If we look at Fangraphs which does a calculation called Wins Above Replacement which includes positional adjustment, Derek Jeter over his career has been worth 73.8 wins. This list goes back as far as 1871, and Jeter comes in at 68th. Of 15,867 (BTW Craig Biggio comes in at 88th, immediately ahead of HOF Ozzie Smith and just behind should-be HOF Mark McGwire). How is being among the 99.5th percentile of players to play the game not qualification for calling someone great?

[Maxx]

Could we just stop talking about Derek Jeter? Really what is left to be said at this point?

[JStarr]

Could we just stop talking about Derek Jeter? Really what is left to be said at this point?

Co-sign. Unless, of course, there's a Jeter Tax. If you want to comment on him, you have to post a picture of some of his reported conquests.

Pissing and moaning about Yankees always goes down a little easier with Mariah and Minka pics to gaze at.

[sahyder1]

Barroid should have won 3 straight MVPs in Pittsburgh, since that Terry Pendleton MVP is a joke. I know most people only remember the hulking Giants version of the guy, but pre-roids he was either 1 or 1A in all of baseball alongside Griffey Jr. I think the ironic thing is if he hadn't become such a devastating power hitter he probably would have ended up with 3,000+ hits, still come close to the 500 HR mark and ended up with 500+ SB to boot. Steroids or not, he is the greatest hitter AND best all around baseball player I've ever seen. If Pujols had any kind of speed he'd be in the mix to dethrone him, but he doesn't.

Maybe it's an AL/NL fan thing, but since I saw more of Seattle than Pittsburgh/SF during the 90s I tend towards Griffey as the best player I've ever seen. On a boxscore Bonds' numbers are just incredible and make him maybe the greatest player to ever play the game, but I have so many more memories of the Kid, like watching him smoke 3 off the Jays (2 off Clemens) in one game in '97.

I don't want to jump into yet another Jeter debate, just the whole thing about his numbers being similar to Craig Biggio's - they're not THAT similar (.312/.383/.449 vs Biggio's .281/.363/.433) but it's not really a knock against Jeter if they were. Because yes, while Biggio has been insanely unheralded, he also totally deserves to be in the Hall. And the thing about all those guys who had better offensive numbers - positional adjustment. Was Vladimir Guerrero a better hitter than Derek Jeter? Of course. But if you take someone playing passable defense at a corner outfield position and compare it to someone playing passable defense at SS (and yes, while he was not a gold glove caliber defender he was hardly a statue), the offensive expectations are completely different. Relative to Jeter, there was what, 1 better offensive shortstop during the last 15 years? And he ended up playing third base beside Jeter. If we look at Fangraphs which does a calculation called Wins Above Replacement which includes positional adjustment, Derek Jeter over his career has been worth 73.8 wins. This list goes back as far as 1871, and Jeter comes in at 68th. Of 15,867 (BTW Craig Biggio comes in at 88th, immediately ahead of HOF Ozzie Smith and just behind should-be HOF Mark McGwire). How is being among the 99.5th percentile of players to play the game not qualification for calling someone great?

I don't think you can go wrong picking Griffey over Bonds. Most people I talk to who take Griffey over Bonds tend to usually do so because they give Griffey the edge defensively but Bonds really wasn't that bad of a defensive player in the first half of his career. I don't think I'd argue against Griffey though. The reason I take Bonds is the overall game. It wasn't just the HRs. It is the 514 SBs, 1996 RBIs. It's the 600 something doubles. 2500 walks. It is the 7 MVPs (plus he finished top 5 another 5 times). Who the hell knows if he was a nicer guy he'd have even more. It's a shame that Griffey will always be the "what if" guy because he's easily one of the top 5 position players of his era even with all the injuries.

I didn't look up those Biggio #s...I was trying to remember what Naiwf had said. But again, it wasn't a knock on either guy. WAR can be spun whichever way you want it to. According to the conversion on Baseball Reference a WAR of 8+ is MVP quality, 5+ is all-star quality. Only one Jeter season hits the MVP quality mark and that is 1999. Only 6 (including the MVP one) hit the all-star level. I also think you're underrating Guerrero as an OFer. No, he wasn't like Griffey, Hunter, Edmonds, Cameron etc. diving all over the place but for most of his career he had one of the most feared outfield arms in baseball.

Edited August 8, 2011 by sahyder1