EWR 2012 Stats Update: July ***PLEASE USE SPOILER TAGS***

[Guest Team 720]

Edit:

I just used Punk as a single example. I'd say Doug Williams he is on-par/maybe a point higher, William Regal on-par/maybe a point lower, Kurt Angle better than (in this day and age), and Punk head and shoulders better than.

So Doug Williams should be around say 92, Regal at 90, and Angle at 92 sounds about good to me.

I apologize for not being clear, I meant the other way around: Williams should be at 90, Regal at 92, and Angle at 90.

IMO Cena is one of the best sellers in the business, it is one of the main reasons he is the top guy - he knows how to get moves over and make them look devastating. I'd leave it at the least as is.

If he knew how to sell things he would have sold a 20 minute beatdown by The Miz in that I Quit match better during his two minute comeback. Plus he doesn't sell whenever he has his comebacks on any RAWs. PPV are different but they are done once a month while he will be on RAW wrestling 4 to 5 times a month. I still stand by what I think and YES, I thought he did good last night. The problem is his body of work begs to differ.

I still say that Williams and Angle should be better than Quacks but I don't want to sound like a broken record.

Edit: AR Fox's primary finisher should be LoMein Pain which would be a corner move as it is a cross between a split-leged moonsault and a spanish fly.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Team 720

[KrisClassic]

Edit:

I just used Punk as a single example. I'd say Doug Williams he is on-par/maybe a point higher, William Regal on-par/maybe a point lower, Kurt Angle better than (in this day and age), and Punk head and shoulders better than.

So Doug Williams should be around say 92, Regal at 90, and Angle at 92 sounds about good to me.

I apologize for not being clear, I meant the other way around: Williams should be at 90, Regal at 92, and Angle at 90.

IMO Cena is one of the best sellers in the business, it is one of the main reasons he is the top guy - he knows how to get moves over and make them look devastating. I'd leave it at the least as is.

If he knew how to sell things he would have sold a 20 minute beatdown by The Miz in that I Quit match better during his two minute comeback. Plus he doesn't sell whenever he has his comebacks on any RAWs. PPV are different but they are done once a month while he will be on RAW wrestling 4 to 5 times a month. I still stand by what I think and YES, I thought he did good last night. The problem is his body of work begs to differ.

I still say that Williams and Angle should be better than Quacks but I don't want to sound like a broken record.

Angle may have USED to be better, but I don't think in this day and age he is. Williams is close but I still think Quack has the edge.

As for Cena, he knows how to sell effectively with his goal being to get the audience into it, the same way Hulk Hogan did in the 80s. I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

-Add the stable "Ohio is For Killers" to CZW: Sami Callihan (leader), Dave Crist, and Jake Crist (turn heel).

-Raise Dave Crist's charisma to 68.

-Raise Kid America (who needs to be renamed to Mike Kehner)'s overness to 38.

-Lower Matt Saigon's technical to 74.

-Raise Kekoa's overness to 32. Check Fonz Factor. Change his ECWA gimmick to Cool.

Edited July 17, 2012 by KrisClassic

[Guest Team 720]

Edit:

I just used Punk as a single example. I'd say Doug Williams he is on-par/maybe a point higher, William Regal on-par/maybe a point lower, Kurt Angle better than (in this day and age), and Punk head and shoulders better than.

So Doug Williams should be around say 92, Regal at 90, and Angle at 92 sounds about good to me.

I apologize for not being clear, I meant the other way around: Williams should be at 90, Regal at 92, and Angle at 90.

IMO Cena is one of the best sellers in the business, it is one of the main reasons he is the top guy - he knows how to get moves over and make them look devastating. I'd leave it at the least as is.

If he knew how to sell things he would have sold a 20 minute beatdown by The Miz in that I Quit match better during his two minute comeback. Plus he doesn't sell whenever he has his comebacks on any RAWs. PPV are different but they are done once a month while he will be on RAW wrestling 4 to 5 times a month. I still stand by what I think and YES, I thought he did good last night. The problem is his body of work begs to differ.

As for Cena, he knows how to sell effectively with his goal being to get the audience into it, the same way Hulk Hogan did in the 80s. I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

I think you are confusing charimsa with selling with this one. Getting the crowd into it is physical charisma. Selling means you take a move and makes it believable. Besides pay per views or beatdown angles on RAW, when does Cena do it? I can answer you, never. He never believably sells and I feel a 78 is an overstatement. That is as low I would go. Personally I think he is at a 73 at this point.

Comparing Cena's selling to Hogan is comparing apples to oranges. You talk about belivability, Hogan, Undertaker, Warrior, Tatanka and even Michaels with the kip-ups had beliveable comebacks. Cena does not at ALL. Cena gets up and then hits his shoulder blocks, ducks a closeline and drops the opponent with the modified blue thunder bomb for a five knuckle shuffle.

I still want to know what a different speed style match is. To me it is hitting or flying and/or springboarding off of the ropes. I understand what a different style brawl is but to me there only a few ways to skin the cat known as the speed stat.

And I agrue that this different style of selling BS is NOT and SHOULD NOT be considered as another form of selling.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Team 720

[notatardis]

Cena shouldn't be anywhere close to an 83 for selling.

I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense?

I think Grizzly's also faded a bit, the lowering I feel is fair.

Edited July 17, 2012 by notatardis

[conker8]

Looking at some wreslters Selling stat, Cena is rated higher than better sellers.

One guy in particular is Sheamus (77 currently) - instead of Cena, he is believable in his comebacks.

So, yeah Cena should be rated at 78 - 73 is really harsh. And Sheamus should be at least at 83. He made Del Rio looks credible last night - he delivers also greats performances against Ziggler and D. Bryan.

EDIT : There was a discussion about Backlund's charisma. This guy was funny back in the 90's but I 'm not sure about 85 right now. 77-78 is good IMO.

Edited July 17, 2012 by conker8

[arwrestling]

I agree Cena's selling should be at around 73, no higher. Sheamus is good where he is. While he may have done well yesterday, overall the guy's selling isn't exactly awesome. Far from awful but not exactly top notch either. He's fine as is.

[TSweets]

Add Raven Lake to ECCW

Add Sammy Hall to ECCW

Rename Tag Team - Cougar and Richards to Team Ambition and raise EXP to 7

Rename Tag Team - Army of Darkness II to Puppy Love increase Exp to 15

Add Masked Marauder as an Alter ego for Billy Lit

[MaSc]

Remove Sugi San from AAA

Remove Loco Max from CMLL

In the crazy news department, Sugi San stated at Narita Airport early this morning in Tokyo that he was the one that planted the marijuana in the painting that NOSAWA & Io Shirai was caught with by customs agents after they returned home from Mexico last May. Both were arrested on drug charges which is serious business in Japan but a couple of weeks ago it was announced that charges weren't going to be pressed against them and the case was dropped. So this morning, Sugi San and conspirator Masahiro Hayashi who works as Sol Luna admitted to doing it to setup NOSAWA who Sugi had some issues with and Hayashi was the one that procured the drugs. Sugi said that he wanted to come clean and tell everyone because NOSAWA found out that he did it and he was coming for him so he was flying to Mexico which he was booked for anyway and he probably wouldn't be coming back for a while. AAA sent out a press release this afternoon saying that they had no knowledge of this situation and are doing their own investigation but implied that Sugi wouldn't be booked anymore.

Loco Max has officially left EMLL after not having a match with them for the last month and he is now working independents.

Source: PWInsider

Maybe add a Stable (Name ???) Kevin Steen (Leader), Steve Corino & Jimmy Jacobs.

Edited July 18, 2012 by MaSc

[KrisClassic]

Cena shouldn't be anywhere close to an 83 for selling.

I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense?

That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid.

As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment.

-Raise Blk Jeez's overness to 57. Check Trainer.

-Raise Joker's overness to 52.

-Raise Adam Cole's brawl to 74 and charisma to 81.

-Raise Robert Anthony's overness to 53. Make him a non-wrestler.

-Raise Masada's selling to 74 and overness to 59.

-Raise Drake Younger's speed to 53 and charisma to 76. Check SS Look. Raise his wages to 18,000.

-Check High Spots and Menacing for Billy Gram. Raise his overness to 29.

-Raise Dean Ambrose's brawl to 78, stiffness to 45, selling to 93, and overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him.

-Check Announcer for Zack Sabre Jr. Raise his overness to 36.

-Check Announcer for Devon Moore. Raise his overness to 50.

-Lower William Regal's stiffness to 71. Raise his selling to 83.

-Add a dislike between Billy Gram and Devon Moore (based on Moore’s shoot with Smart Mark).

-Raise Ryan Tran's talent to 73.

-Raise the Young Lion's Cup's image to 42.

-Raise the Campeones de Parejas's image to 52.

-Raise the Chikara Grand Champion's image to 60.

-Raise the CZW World Junior Heavyweight Championship's image to 54.

-Raise the CZW World Heavyweight Championship's image to 58.

Edited July 18, 2012 by KrisClassic

[Guest Team 720]

Cena shouldn't be anywhere close to an 83 for selling.

I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense?

That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid.

As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment.

-Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him.

The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable.

I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's

[KrisClassic]

Cena shouldn't be anywhere close to an 83 for selling.

I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense?

That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid.

As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment.

-Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him.

The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable.

I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's

The 40s? That is ridiculous. He should be at 66 based on his indy prowess alone. The NXT guys may be in the 50s, but is there as much of a sensation online in regards to them as there is Ambrose? Do they have the same cult following? Were they main eventing large independent promotions before going to FCW? The answer to all is no. Ambrose was one of the hugest stars on the indy scene before he got signed, and now that he is in FCW he is the hottest property there.

Edited July 18, 2012 by KrisClassic

[notatardis]

Cena shouldn't be anywhere close to an 83 for selling.

I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense?

That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid.

As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment.

-Raise Blk Jeez's overness to 57. Check Trainer.

-Raise Joker's overness to 52.

-Raise Adam Cole's brawl to 74 and charisma to 81.

-Raise Robert Anthony's overness to 53. Make him a non-wrestler.

-Raise Masada's selling to 74 and overness to 59.

-Raise Drake Younger's speed to 53 and charisma to 76. Check SS Look. Raise his wages to 18,000.

-Check High Spots and Menacing for Billy Gram. Raise his overness to 29.

-Raise Dean Ambrose's brawl to 78, stiffness to 45, selling to 93, and overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him.

-Check Announcer for Zack Sabre Jr. Raise his overness to 36.

-Check Announcer for Devon Moore. Raise his overness to 50.

-Lower William Regal's stiffness to 71. Raise his selling to 83.

-Add a dislike between Billy Gram and Devon Moore (based on Moore’s shoot with Smart Mark).

-Raise Ryan Tran's talent to 73.

-Raise the Young Lion's Cup's image to 42.

-Raise the Campeones de Parejas's image to 52.

-Raise the Chikara Grand Champion's image to 60.

-Raise the CZW World Junior Heavyweight Championship's image to 54.

-Raise the CZW World Heavyweight Championship's image to 58.

But that's also like saying Finaly is good at deathmatch wrestling and every other type of brawl and that's not valid either. Less so in fact. In terms of more realistic and accurate, you're better off being all encompassing, because otherwise every wrestler is pretty good at something and then the stats start to lose meaning. Everyone could reasonably be put into the 80s then. The best way would be to average them all out with weights, as difficult as it might be.

[notatardis]

Cena shouldn't be anywhere close to an 83 for selling.

I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense?

That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid.

As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment.

-Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him.

The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable.

I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's

The 40s? That is ridiculous. He should be at 66 based on his indy prowess alone. The NXT guys may be in the 50s, but is there as much of a sensation online in regards to them as there is Ambrose? Do they have the same cult following? Were they main eventing large independent promotions before going to FCW? The answer to all is no. Ambrose was one of the hugest stars on the indy scene before he got signed, and now that he is in FCW he is the hottest property there.

Most casual fans have little to no idea who he is, and he's not any more vaunted than Claudio, Hero, or Black, only Claudio of which is in the high 60s, and so far I don't think he's measured up to that. I don't know about the 40s, but based on comparable players, I'd say the mid to low 50s.

[KrisClassic]

Cena shouldn't be anywhere close to an 83 for selling.

I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense?

That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid.

As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment.

-Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him.

The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable.

I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's

The 40s? That is ridiculous. He should be at 66 based on his indy prowess alone. The NXT guys may be in the 50s, but is there as much of a sensation online in regards to them as there is Ambrose? Do they have the same cult following? Were they main eventing large independent promotions before going to FCW? The answer to all is no. Ambrose was one of the hugest stars on the indy scene before he got signed, and now that he is in FCW he is the hottest property there.

Most casual fans have little to no idea who he is, and he's not any more vaunted than Claudio, Hero, or Black, only Claudio of which is in the high 60s, and so far I don't think he's measured up to that. I don't know about the 40s, but based on comparable players, I'd say the mid to low 50s.

If we're talking casual fans we would need to lower all of the indy wrestler's stats, and I don't think that is reasonable at all. If Ambrose were back on the indies he would be just as well-respected and known as Davey Richards, Roderick Strong, or any of the other top names.

As for the balances to stats, I disagree, I feel they should be all-encompassing. Finlay can have a 5 star match with his style of brawling, it wouldn't be accurate to lower his stats and only have him be mediocre. While having things be all-encompassing isn't perfect, neither is the game, and it is the best solution we have.

-Raise Chris Wylde's brawl to 53, speed to 67, technical to 58, selling to 74, and overness to 25.

-Raise Aden Chambers' brawl to 66 and technical to 52.

-Raise John Zandig's technical to 39.

Edited July 18, 2012 by KrisClassic

[Guest Team 720]

Cena shouldn't be anywhere close to an 83 for selling.

I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense?

That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid.

As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment.

-Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him.

The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable.

I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's

The 40s? That is ridiculous. He should be at 66 based on his indy prowess alone. The NXT guys may be in the 50s, but is there as much of a sensation online in regards to them as there is Ambrose? Do they have the same cult following? Were they main eventing large independent promotions before going to FCW? The answer to all is no. Ambrose was one of the hugest stars on the indy scene before he got signed, and now that he is in FCW he is the hottest property there.

The NXT guys are Richie Steamboat (hype from family lineage), Kassius Ohno (hype), Seth Rollins (hype), Bo Dallas (hype), Bray Wyatt (hype plus has previous NATIONWIDE exposure from NXT season 2 and RAW). Also Ambrose was not even in ROH like Ohno, Cesaro and Rollins, the highest profile promotion he worked for was DGUSA.

Cena shouldn't be anywhere close to an 83 for selling.

I'd describe it more as selling towards the goal of bringing in an audience than selling towards the goal of being a critically acclaimed actor. And, as the brawl stat and the speed stat represent different branches that fall under the same category, I'd argue that selling should too.

That's one part of selling, and there's different aspects to it. Ones that Cena is rather poor in. Same with the other categories. So why not use the stats in an all encompassing form? If it covers everything, then the wrestler in question would have to be good at everything. I think it's disingenuous to say "X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles and Wrestler Q does really great at W style so he should have a high number" If that's the case, that X stat covers W, Y, and Z styles, then wrestler Q's rating should be based on W, Y, and Z styles, just not W style. Does that make sense?

That's like saying a wrestler with a high brawl stat (let's for this example use Finlay) isn't skilled at deathmatch wrestling, so his brawl should be lowered. I don't buy that as valid.

As for saying that getting the crowd into it involves physical charisma, you are 100% right. But that isn't all it is. It is just as much selling as well. Like Dusty Rhodes' and Hulk Hogan's selling, it was convincing enough to get the fans to care about them and have an emotional attachment.

-Raise Dean Ambrose's overness to 66. 66 is the highest you can reach in-game and still be in developmental from the start, and I think that reflects accurately in real life the buzz that is around him.

The problem is Cena's crowd selling sucks. He is NOT convincing when he is getting beatdown during matches. You are one of a few people who actually believe that he is good borderline great at selling when he is normally passable.

I don't think Dean Ambrose should be THAT over. Buzz would not make someone over. I would lower him into the 40's due to the fact he is still in developmental and guys in NXT are in the 50's

The 40s? That is ridiculous. He should be at 66 based on his indy prowess alone. The NXT guys may be in the 50s, but is there as much of a sensation online in regards to them as there is Ambrose? Do they have the same cult following? Were they main eventing large independent promotions before going to FCW? The answer to all is no. Ambrose was one of the hugest stars on the indy scene before he got signed, and now that he is in FCW he is the hottest property there.

Most casual fans have little to no idea who he is, and he's not any more vaunted than Claudio, Hero, or Black, only Claudio of which is in the high 60s, and so far I don't think he's measured up to that. I don't know about the 40s, but based on comparable players, I'd say the mid to low 50s.

If we're talking casual fans we would need to lower all of the indy wrestler's stats, and I don't think that is reasonable at all. If Ambrose were back on the indies he would be just as well-respected and known as Davey Richards, Roderick Strong, or any of the other top names.

Does anyone else find that as ridiculous as I? Richards and Strong have been stars for YEARS. Ambrose only came onto his own through CZW and DGUSA in 2009/10. In CZW he was a part of a big angle with Sami Callihan as his running buddy. Strong and Richards have been integral to RoH since 2005/06 (in Strong's case) and 2007 for Richards In DGUSA he was put over as the top American only after Bryan left for WWE, Richards left for ROH and Kendrick left for TNA and was the mouthpiece for KAMIKAZE. I still think if you put Ambrose as a top guy on one show and Richards as the top guy on the other show in the same town for equal promotions, I think a majority would pick Richards due to his exposure through ROH. Ambrose did not really have the exposure in DGUSA to warrant that.

As for the Ambrose is the hotest property in FCW, why is he the biggest name NOT to get a spot on the initial NXT tappings?

Edited July 18, 2012 by Team 720

[stephenbutler]

Does anyone else find that as ridiculous as I? Richards and Strong have been stars for YEARS. Ambrose only came onto his own through CZW and DGUSA in 2009/10. In CZW he was a part of a big angle with Sami Callihan as his running buddy. Strong and Richards have been integral to RoH since 2005/06 (in Strong's case) and 2007 for Richards In DGUSA he was put over as the top American only after Bryan left for WWE, Richards left for ROH and Kendrick left for TNA and was the mouthpiece for KAMIKAZE. I still think if you put Ambrose as a top guy on one show and Richards as the top guy on the other show in the same town for equal promotions, I think a majority would pick Richards due to his exposure through ROH. Ambrose did not really have the exposure in DGUSA to warrant that.

As for the Ambrose is the hotest property in FCW, why is he the biggest name NOT to get a spot on the initial NXT tappings?

Maybe they want to debut him on the main roster?

I don't know whether it will happen, as he is apparently in the doghouse...but for all we know, they might be really high on him and want him to make a big impact.

Edited July 18, 2012 by stephenbutler

[KrisClassic]

The NXT guys are Richie Steamboat (hype from family lineage), Kassius Ohno (hype), Seth Rollins (hype), Bo Dallas (hype), Bray Wyatt (hype plus has previous NATIONWIDE exposure from NXT season 2 and RAW). Also Ambrose was not even in ROH like Ohno, Cesaro and Rollins, the highest profile promotion he worked for was DGUSA.

Since when is ROH the end-all, be-all for indy wrestling? Moxley was a main eventer in two of the top indy promotions in America as far as exposure goes - CZW and DG-USA.

Steamboat is a decent worker and has interest in him based off of who his father is, but he isn't a point of excitement that has captivated the IWC like Moxley. Kassius Ohno's overness should be at 66. Looking at it now, I'm shocked at how low it is. Aside from his overness from when he was on the indy scene, he has A LOT of momentum and popularity in FCW already (he is already one of the top guys there). Seth Rollins I'd say has lost steam over the past year just drifting in developmental, as has Bray Wyatt (who is slowly gaining it back with his latest gimmick). Bo Dallas is slowly gaining momentum as well.

Does anyone else find that as ridiculous as I? Richards and Strong have been stars for YEARS. Ambrose only came onto his own through CZW and DGUSA in 2009/10. In CZW he was a part of a big angle with Sami Callihan as his running buddy. Strong and Richards have been integral to RoH since 2005/06 (in Strong's case) and 2007 for Richards In DGUSA he was put over as the top American only after Bryan left for WWE, Richards left for ROH and Kendrick left for TNA and was the mouthpiece for KAMIKAZE. I still think if you put Ambrose as a top guy on one show and Richards as the top guy on the other show in the same town for equal promotions, I think a majority would pick Richards due to his exposure through ROH. Ambrose did not really have the exposure in DGUSA to warrant that.

I see there as being two components to overness - how well known someone is and how much current active interest/momentum someone has. It's why someone like Virgil, who virtually every fan knows about who he is or has at least heard of him in relation to Ted DiBiase, but he only at 44 because nobody actually cares. For the indies Davey Richards is as well known as you can get, however his momentum is starting to fall slightly, I'd say. For example, Kevin Steen isn't quite as well known - very well known for an indy worker, but not as much as Richards, but he has HUGE momentum going right now. As for Roddy, he is well known on the indy scene, but it hasn't been til recently that he is starting to make people actually care about him and gain momentum. Sure, he may have been a major player for awhile in ROH, but I feel a lot of that time he was drifting around and compared to the fans' responses to guys like Aries and Joe, he was near receiving apathy.

Rambling aside, Moxley is incredibly well known on the indy scene. Easily enough to main event a cult-level promotion like CZW, PWG, DG-USA, or Chikara, where to be a main eventer you need to at least have an overness of 66). But indy-fame aside, he has an incredibly huge amount of momentum, a buzz similar to when Daniel Bryan and Punk were on the verge of joining the roster.

As for the Ambrose is the hotest property in FCW, why is he the biggest name NOT to get a spot on the initial NXT tappings?

I really don't see how that is material to the argument at all. Most likely, in my opinion, is because they are more interested in having him go straight to the main roster instead of diluting him through NXT.

-Raise Kassius Ohno's overness to 66. Change his gimmick to Ice Man. Make him a heel.

Edit: Kind of off-topic, is the "dog house" statement based on a report, or is that just speculation due to how long he has been on the road with WWE without being on TV? As far as I know he is regularly working dark matches still.

Edited July 18, 2012 by KrisClassic

[Guest Team 720]

The NXT guys are Richie Steamboat (hype from family lineage), Kassius Ohno (hype), Seth Rollins (hype), Bo Dallas (hype), Bray Wyatt (hype plus has previous NATIONWIDE exposure from NXT season 2 and RAW). Also Ambrose was not even in ROH like Ohno, Cesaro and Rollins, the highest profile promotion he worked for was DGUSA.

Since when is ROH the end-all, be-all for indy wrestling? Moxley was a main eventer in two of the top indy promotions in America as far as exposure goes - CZW and DG-USA.

Steamboat is a decent worker and has interest in him based off of who his father is, but he isn't a point of excitement that has captivated the IWC like Moxley. Kassius Ohno's overness should be at 66. Looking at it now, I'm shocked at how low it is. Aside from his overness from when he was on the indy scene, he has A LOT of momentum and popularity in FCW already (he is already one of the top guys there). Seth Rollins I'd say has lost steam over the past year just drifting in developmental, as has Bray Wyatt (who is slowly gaining it back with his latest gimmick). Bo Dallas is slowly gaining momentum as well

The problem here is there are all of these guys are now in WWE developmental who are more over than guys on the main roster. Would there be pockets that these guys are over like the ECW guys in the northeast, yes. To have guys that are more over in a glorified developmental (the new NXT) than a majority of the Superstars Crew (Mike McG, Tyson, Hawkins, Ryder, The Uso, The Prime Times (currently) and even those like Epico and Primo who aren't getting reactions period) is ridiculousness. I recognize that yes, these guys are not hot commodities right now but seriously, guys that only the die-hard fans who are willing to watch any wrestling and are over are more over? While Epico and Primo cannot get pops in a 15,000 seat arena, I don't think Dalls, Steamer, Ohno, Rollins, Wyatt or Ambrose can do better than Epico and Primo at THIS point.

Does anyone else find that as ridiculous as I? Richards and Strong have been stars for YEARS. Ambrose only came onto his own through CZW and DGUSA in 2009/10. In CZW he was a part of a big angle with Sami Callihan as his running buddy. Strong and Richards have been integral to RoH since 2005/06 (in Strong's case) and 2007 for Richards In DGUSA he was put over as the top American only after Bryan left for WWE, Richards left for ROH and Kendrick left for TNA and was the mouthpiece for KAMIKAZE. I still think if you put Ambrose as a top guy on one show and Richards as the top guy on the other show in the same town for equal promotions, I think a majority would pick Richards due to his exposure through ROH. Ambrose did not really have the exposure in DGUSA to warrant that.

I see there as being two components to overness - how well known someone is and how much current active interest/momentum someone has. It's why someone like Virgil, who virtually every fan knows about who he is or has at least heard of him in relation to Ted DiBiase, but he only at 44 because nobody actually cares. For the indies Davey Richards is as well known as you can get, however his momentum is starting to fall slightly, I'd say. For example, Kevin Steen isn't quite as well known - very well known for an indy worker, but not as much as Richards, but he has HUGE momentum going right now. As for Roddy, he is well known on the indy scene, but it hasn't been til recently that he is starting to make people actually care about him and gain momentum. Sure, he may have been a major player for awhile in ROH, but I feel a lot of that time he was drifting around and compared to the fans' responses to guys like Aries and Joe, he was near receiving apathy.

Rambling aside, Moxley is incredibly well known on the indy scene. Easily enough to main event a cult-level promotion like CZW, PWG, DG-USA, or Chikara, where to be a main eventer you need to at least have an overness of 66). But indy-fame aside, he has an incredibly huge amount of momentum, a buzz similar to when Daniel Bryan and Punk were on the verge of joining the roster.

I don't think the same buzz is on Moxley as is with Punk or Bryan. Punk and Bryan had entire promotions built around them. Punk was the MVP of Ring of Honor from mid 2003 until the end of the summer of Punk on the mic and in the ring. Right after that, Bryan took the mantle for the in-ring and then later became the best on the mic. He was their star until about 2007. Who else in ROH history had as many great matches and feuds as RoH champion? Joe is the only to come to mind. Punk and Bryan are two guys that had a big buzz going into WWE and I had heard it about Ambrose and then after April when the reports of him being in the dog house came out, it went away.

As for Moxley, he lead an up-swing in CZW with the Switchblade Conspiracy I will give him that but I feel his DG-USA stuff was more or less because he was the only man left at the time and he was the spokesman for the top heel group. His promos were great, I've seen a few from the Jacobs feud but that is charisma and not overness. Moxley was the last American (other than CHIKARA) standing. The other American guys left because they got offered deals elsewhere whether it was WWE, TNA or RoH that conflicted with their ability to be on DGUSA shows. I still say that the promotion was built more around the Dragon Gate guys or even Ronin than it was Moxley. Moxley was just the spokesman for the main heel stable in DGUSA because none of them spoke English.

-Raise Kassius Ohno's overness to 66. Change his gimmick to Ice Man. Make him a heel.

Agree with the gimmick and the disposition but NOT with the overness as per points mention above.

Edit: Kind of off-topic, is the "dog house" statement based on a report, or is that just speculation due to how long he has been on the road with WWE without being on TV? As far as I know he is regularly working dark matches still.

The dog house was based on a report that he was going to debut and feud with Mick Foley and that because of his "actions during the WrestleMania weekend," the plug being pulled on his Mick Foley feud.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Team 720

[Skummy]

His "actions during Wrestlemania weekend" were what started the Mick Foley feud.

And Cena can sell like a champ. Just look to his match with Brock for evidence of that - or any of his matches last year with Punk. Hell, even the match with Miz up until the Superman comeback.

His comeback doesn't negate his selling ability, because the comeback is largely down to how the character is booked - it's no different to Hogan "Hulking Up"; does that part of his gimmick negate his selling ability prior to that point in the match? How about Shawn Michaels flipping up to his feet and going to the top rope after being beaten down for half an hour? It's got very little to do with selling, and everything to do with how WWE presents strong babyfaces.

[KrisClassic]

Responses are in bold.

The NXT guys are Richie Steamboat (hype from family lineage), Kassius Ohno (hype), Seth Rollins (hype), Bo Dallas (hype), Bray Wyatt (hype plus has previous NATIONWIDE exposure from NXT season 2 and RAW). Also Ambrose was not even in ROH like Ohno, Cesaro and Rollins, the highest profile promotion he worked for was DGUSA.

Since when is ROH the end-all, be-all for indy wrestling? Moxley was a main eventer in two of the top indy promotions in America as far as exposure goes - CZW and DG-USA.

Steamboat is a decent worker and has interest in him based off of who his father is, but he isn't a point of excitement that has captivated the IWC like Moxley. Kassius Ohno's overness should be at 66. Looking at it now, I'm shocked at how low it is. Aside from his overness from when he was on the indy scene, he has A LOT of momentum and popularity in FCW already (he is already one of the top guys there). Seth Rollins I'd say has lost steam over the past year just drifting in developmental, as has Bray Wyatt (who is slowly gaining it back with his latest gimmick). Bo Dallas is slowly gaining momentum as well

The problem here is there are all of these guys are now in WWE developmental who are more over than guys on the main roster. Would there be pockets that these guys are over like the ECW guys in the northeast, yes. To have guys that are more over in a glorified developmental (the new NXT) than a majority of the Superstars Crew (Mike McG, Tyson, Hawkins, Ryder, The Uso, The Prime Times (currently) and even those like Epico and Primo who aren't getting reactions period) is ridiculousness. I recognize that yes, these guys are not hot commodities right now but seriously, guys that only the die-hard fans who are willing to watch any wrestling and are over are more over? While Epico and Primo cannot get pops in a 15,000 seat arena, I don't think Dalls, Steamer, Ohno, Rollins, Wyatt or Ambrose can do better than Epico and Primo at THIS point.

Do you think Davey Richards would get a response out of them? Probably not. We can't just base every level of overness based on what the casual fan will respond to. If he were released today and were to go back onto the indies he would be more than over enough to main event a cult-level promotion, 66 being perfect for that.

Does anyone else find that as ridiculous as I? Richards and Strong have been stars for YEARS. Ambrose only came onto his own through CZW and DGUSA in 2009/10. In CZW he was a part of a big angle with Sami Callihan as his running buddy. Strong and Richards have been integral to RoH since 2005/06 (in Strong's case) and 2007 for Richards In DGUSA he was put over as the top American only after Bryan left for WWE, Richards left for ROH and Kendrick left for TNA and was the mouthpiece for KAMIKAZE. I still think if you put Ambrose as a top guy on one show and Richards as the top guy on the other show in the same town for equal promotions, I think a majority would pick Richards due to his exposure through ROH. Ambrose did not really have the exposure in DGUSA to warrant that.

I see there as being two components to overness - how well known someone is and how much current active interest/momentum someone has. It's why someone like Virgil, who virtually every fan knows about who he is or has at least heard of him in relation to Ted DiBiase, but he only at 44 because nobody actually cares. For the indies Davey Richards is as well known as you can get, however his momentum is starting to fall slightly, I'd say. For example, Kevin Steen isn't quite as well known - very well known for an indy worker, but not as much as Richards, but he has HUGE momentum going right now. As for Roddy, he is well known on the indy scene, but it hasn't been til recently that he is starting to make people actually care about him and gain momentum. Sure, he may have been a major player for awhile in ROH, but I feel a lot of that time he was drifting around and compared to the fans' responses to guys like Aries and Joe, he was near receiving apathy.

Rambling aside, Moxley is incredibly well known on the indy scene. Easily enough to main event a cult-level promotion like CZW, PWG, DG-USA, or Chikara, where to be a main eventer you need to at least have an overness of 66). But indy-fame aside, he has an incredibly huge amount of momentum, a buzz similar to when Daniel Bryan and Punk were on the verge of joining the roster.

I don't think the same buzz is on Moxley as is with Punk or Bryan. Punk and Bryan had entire promotions built around them. Punk was the MVP of Ring of Honor from mid 2003 until the end of the summer of Punk on the mic and in the ring. Right after that, Bryan took the mantle for the in-ring and then later became the best on the mic. He was their star until about 2007. Who else in ROH history had as many great matches and feuds as RoH champion? Joe is the only to come to mind. Punk and Bryan are two guys that had a big buzz going into WWE and I had heard it about Ambrose and then after April when the reports of him being in the dog house came out, it went away.

As for Moxley, he lead an up-swing in CZW with the Switchblade Conspiracy I will give him that but I feel his DG-USA stuff was more or less because he was the only man left at the time and he was the spokesman for the top heel group. His promos were great, I've seen a few from the Jacobs feud but that is charisma and not overness. Moxley was the last American (other than CHIKARA) standing. The other American guys left because they got offered deals elsewhere whether it was WWE, TNA or RoH that conflicted with their ability to be on DGUSA shows. I still say that the promotion was built more around the Dragon Gate guys or even Ronin than it was Moxley. Moxley was just the spokesman for the main heel stable in DGUSA because none of them spoke English.

Moxley may have no been the basis of a promotion, but just off of his skill and character alone he has created a very considerable buzz. I haven't seen a wrestling forum where he isn't a subject of excitement concerning his eventual debut.

-Raise Kassius Ohno's overness to 66. Change his gimmick to Ice Man. Make him a heel.

Agree with the gimmick and the disposition but NOT with the overness as per points mention above.

Why not? This really doesn't make sense to me. While he was in ROH nobody had any objection to him being at (if memory serves me correctly) 68. So the second he signs a contract he automatically loses 15 points of overness? That doesn't make sense. In real life that would only make him MORE popular. I understand lowering his overness just enough so he can start the game and remain in developmental at 66, but any lower is ridiculous.

What I propose: anyone who is added to developmental from the indies must have their overness (if higher than 66) lowered to 66 in order to fit the game regulations. They shouldn't have their overness lowered for any reason aside from that right off the bat like Hero's evidently was. As I explained above, he has a high level of indy overness that doesn't just disappear the second he gets hired. I look at it as a basis: if Damien Sandow got released now would he be main eventing ROH, DG-USA, PWG, etc? Probably not. Would Hero? Yes. We can't let WWE's overness ladder be the only thing we consider. Is it perfect? No. But this game is very simplistic in nature, just like with its brawl/speed measurement, and the only thing we can do with it is what makes the most sense and makes gameplay most fun. If you are playing strictly as WWE it is more realistic to lower Hero's overness to the 40s or 50s, as well as all developmental/former indy stars, but when you have 30+ other promotions to consider you can't let that be your only measurement.

Edited July 18, 2012 by KrisClassic