Official Premiership 2008/09 thread

[Gazz]

Joe Kinnear started work as Newcastle manager on Monday but his first-team squad were given the day off - even though the former Wimbledon boss had said he intended to drag everyone in and make them watch the DVD of Saturday's 2-1 loss to Blackburn.

*clicks sig*

[Baddar]

Former Tottenham manager Terry Venables has laid the blame for the club's poor start to the season squarely at Dimitar Berbatov's door.

Venables claims the Bulgarian's 'poisonous presence' at the beginning of the campaign has unsettled the whole squad.

Berbatov started the season at White Hart Lane but made clear his desire to realise a 'dream' move to current club Manchester United.

Speculation over Berbatov's future dominated Spurs' early matches as manager Juande Ramos wrestled with whether or not to select the striker, who eventually signed for the Red Devils in a £30million deal on transfer deadline day

Spurs are rooted to the bottom of the table after making their worst ever start to a Premier League season and Ramos is finding himself under increasing pressure.

But Venables, who last week turned down the chance to return to top-flight management with Newcastle, believes the club's current strife stems from Berbatov.

Blast

"Berbatov kept telling us he had 'a dream'. Well, good for you Dimi. You had a dream with a few extra noughts added to your bank balance," Venables told The Sun.

"But did Spurs have a dream too? You got your way but your poisonous presence at the start of the season - the brooding and the reluctance to play - has cost the club that believed in you."

Blunder

"They thought they were going to get Andrei Arshavin," added Venables.

"This was a massive managerial blunder by Spurs, especially when they had allowed Keane to leave. But letting Berbatov and Keane go without having Arshavin in the bag was a boardroom blunder."

Y'know what? Fuck you, Venables.

Fair enough, it was hardly ideal for Berba to be talking about leaving the club early on, but they didn't play again until a fortnight after Berbatov had joined United. If they're still "unsettled" at that point, then surely it's not Berbatov's fault.

And Villa were in a not too dis-similar situation with Barry. They seem to have coped well enough after he "unsettled" them over the summer.

Spurs knew that they'd be taking a risk by selling Berbatov and Keane. Yes they've signed Pavlyuchenko, but will he and Bent get the goals Keane and Berbatov got? I'm not so sure they will...

What Venables said at the end was, I think, the main reason Spurs have been on their poor run - The failure to replace both of their top forwards.

Edited September 30, 2008 by baddarboy

[TheArsenal]

I saw that Spurs have less points this season than Derby had after the same number of games last season. Derby had 4 points to Spurs' 2.

[IAceI]

Derby had played Newcastle in the league at this stage though.

[Crybaby Bunting]

I was just thinking the other day, Ramos was given something like a £6m a year deal for 5 years or so - one of the biggest managerial contracts in England.

Now I'm not so sure about Tottenham's finances but surely if Spurs were to sack Ramos they'd end up losing £20+ million unless a smaller settlement was made. They really don't look like they're in the financial position to suddenly lose another £20m just like that, especially after Levy couldn't keep one of the top strikers when a huge offer was made.

I was thinking that during this past transfer window I can think of three clubs who've had players leave without the managers final say: Newcastle (With Milner and possibly Barton had that been finalised), West Ham (That defender on the last day along with several others) and Man City (with Corluka). Keegan and Curbishly left because of these disputes and Hughes ended up losing his player on the last day after it had been confirmed he was going to be fucking rich.

It's starting to be debatable whether Ramos wanted to get rid of ALL the players that went. I'm sure he originally said as soon as he joined that no-one is safe at the club except Keane and Berbatov, which was meant to be a warning to his defenders, midfielders and unreliable goalkeeper, now most of those have gone PLUS Keane and Berbatov. It really doesn't seem to make much sense, yes he's got some strikers that might even eclipse Keane and Berbatov's skill in a few years time but now's not the time to play unfinished strikers and there doesn't seem to be a complete player there.

I'm not one to start conspiracy theories (well...) but I know that a World Class manager wouldn't be trying to deliberately get himself sacked, especially when you consider how much this could affect his reputation: No-one would touch him with a barge pole if he managed to get Tottenham relegated despite spending a fortune on new players. It doesn't matter if by doing this would get him financially sorted for the next ten years, or whether doing so would be getting back at the owner for screwing over a few players leaving, World Class managers don't do this.

[The Quasi Juice]

I'd like to point out Martin Jol had a better start with Spurs than Ramos. Yeah, Jol wasn't that bad after all huh...

[TheArsenal]

After reading The General's post, it seems to me that Spurs have spent a hell of a lot of money in the last few years. I reckon when you look at money that has been spent they have to be competing with the likes of Liverpool and Man United, and possibly Chelsea - just because they seem to bring in a lot of players each year (especially midfielders, or thats what it feels like). I'm not talking about net spending or anything like that... because for the sake of this post I'm not fussed about whether Tottenham made hat money back by selling Berbatov, or that Chelsea have the Russian to write off every debt they build up. I'm just talking about the act of going out and looking for new players to bring into the club, and how much money the club is willing to release into doing that (whether the money comes from players sold, rich owners, or club finances).

It just seems to me that Spurs really shouldn't be where they are based on the amount of money that has been invested in new players. And I'm asking for geuine reasons when I say this (it's not an Arsenal/Spurs thing) but why, over the last two seasons have Spurs manage to struggle at the start of each season? Ok, the new manager picked it up last season, but without Ramos I think the League Cup probably wouldn't have happened and I think their poor run would have continued well into the season under the leadership of Jol. But why again this year? The Spurs board were after Ramos for weeks, if not months, before they got him. Surely that measnt ehy thought he was a good enough manager to take the club forward for more than a year?

[TAFKA Castroneves]

Let's look at the facts here guys. Spurs are a big football club - Check. Are big football clubs too big to go down - No.

I know this is quite a bold statement but from I have seen this season there is going to need to be some further extensive surgery on Tottenham at January...and by then how many points are they going to have dropped? How many points could they be behind? It doesn't help that Hull are doing well, Stoke look like now and again they could grab something similarily to West Brom. Then you've got Newcastle who are also in a lot of trouble, although for them unlike Spurs it can be sorted before January. And also being completly honest Tottenham's points talley this season currently deserves to be zero. I have never seen a flukier point in my life than the one at Stamford Bridge because they were a poor side.

Tottenham's problem has gone from being simple to being pretty complex, for the first time ever I can say Tottenham have got more problems than just having a poor defence, as a side they have always shipped too many goals and this is just continuing. The problem now is truly that Ramos has gone and screwed himself over. I NEVER would have sold Robbie Keane to Liverpool, I can understand if he wanted out - however unlike Berbatov I could have seen Keane sticking around with a bit of persuasion and perhaps a new contract. Sure £20 million is a lot for Keane but bearing in mind how much of a huge player he was for Spurs I don't see how the money could replace him. It's exactly the same as Ronaldo and Man Utd, Ronaldo could make them a fortune, but why would you go to the trouble of replacing someone who is the key man in the team? Who is going to be able to come in and jump into those boots straight away? No-one, it rarely works like that in football.

Secondly Ramos' signings have been pretty poor. Giovanni Dos Santos and Luka Modric to begin with. These two players are not the sort of players who will jump straight into the Premier League and perform, they need time but sadly the way its worked out with the players heading out (Malbranque etc) there is a lot more emphasis being placed on them. Dos Santos has a known attitude problem and thats why Barcelona were so happy to let him go. Modric while he has had some phenominal games abroad has never struck me as a Premier League quality player, I even argue the same about Arshaven - if he's your get out route in January you are in serious trouble. Pavylchenko on the other hand I am reserving judgment on for a bit, I hope he is a success and he looks like he could be although even if he can score - where is his support going to come from. This season so far it's not just been about Bent being poor, he has had nothing from the midfield to help him.

The only option now is to work an entirely new formation and really work on it, because everything has changed so fast at Spurs over the summer the players heads are just spinning. Get a new tight formation with a tight nucleus of the side and attempt to maximise everyone's best qualities. If that happens, and to be fair Ramos is capable of that then Tottenham will be fine. I just don't think its going to happen, I think Ramos is going to panick buy in January if he's still around and fill the team with more players like Dos Santos and Modric who aren't going to be able to dig into a relegation scrap come the end of the season.

I really hope Spurs don't go down, don't believe that I want them to crash and burn because i don't. The Premier League needs its big sides and Spurs are one of them. I just have a grave fear that everyone is underestimating how bad a situation the club is in at the moment.

[Gazz]

Tottenham's problem seems to be that the rest of the squad have been told that if they go within 25 yards of Pavyluchenko, they'll be transferred to Newcastle in January.

[Crybaby Bunting]

The way I see it it's kinda similar to Leeds, sure Leeds had some publicly known financial problems by the time they buggered up their chances in the Premier League, but they really didn't look like a team that would get relegated, hell they were in the Champions League not that long ago and gave it a hell of a run. Tottenham two seasons ago were huge and could possibly have broken the CL places had they been a little stronger and luckier, then they had a mid-table finish now no-one really knows what the future holds.

Leeds also got rid of a load of top players just before they had their relegation season (If I'm remembering rightly, I think Ferdinand left the season before and some of their other top players were sold for pennies. But I'm a little hazy over the season before and the transfer market immediately after where there was a huge clear out) And like Leeds Tottenham have technically spent less than they sold but they might have accidentally bought absolute rubbish in the hope of improving the squad. The Tottenham squad I see is technically brilliant and each one of their players is fully deserving of a place in their national team but the Spurs team also reminds me of McLaren era England: So many players with a reputation are just thrown into a squad and left to sink or swim. Tottenham have a good squad but an awful team.

For years Spurs fans have claimed that the club is self sufficient, good for them. Shame that in the year they really do spend a fortune, the guy who they've got goes and buys expensive mediocrity.

If you look at the Championship and below, who's the team that ends up winning the league? the one where the players know each other better, that's why them leagues are completely unpredictable. Loads of the teams haven't got any money to buy players so end up loaning or replacing players in the hope that everything works out. Unless you've got world class coaching staff, you're going to have troubles getting players to work with each other (which can explain why Chelsea could win the league after a huge splurge of money going into brand new players) I don't think Ramos really works with the players as much as he could, and when he does he ends up with communication difficulties (which gives considering he prefers Spanish so much in a team full of Croats, Ruskies and Brits). Rafa Benitez is another Spanish manager, he forces players to speak in English to prevent nasty habits which could result in miscommunication when the team needs it the most. What if in a split second Torres shouted at Gerrard in Spanish to move out the way resulting in him getting clouted? the same reason that "I want the ball" in Croatian is going to confuse Gareth Bale.

I guess Benitez' policy of signing Spaniards helps his cause too, they're all learning (or know) English and can help each other out, plus it's tempting other Spaniards to join the club. In Tottenham I see so many different languages it's going to be near impossible to work things out. This is going to result in language classes or something, Corulka fit into Man City because Sven was fluent in all sorts, he could work everything around himself. I picture Spurs players going to training, kicking the ball about between each other and avoiding each other or sticking to little groups that share the language barrier.

For the record I'm not being all smug and mighty because Newcastle are going to stay in the Premier League. At the end of the day no-one is safe, and the way I see it the sooner Newcastle get relegated again the sooner that the expectation will be cut from most of the fans and those fans can continue supporting Manchester United. Most of the current generation of "this is our season" comes from having so much in so little time it builds up and before you know it you believe it yourself. Since Newcastle have been promoted yes they've had 3rd and 2nd place finishes, they've also had plenty more financial problems, new owners, new managers etc. Sometimes all it takes is a fresh start and see where it goes from there.

Look at Leeds fans now, some of them now realise how fickle fame is when it comes to long standing success. Yet the most outspoken ones claim that in a good few years they'll be experiencing Champions League football >_<

[ChrisSteeleAteMyHamster]

Back onto Newcastle, Mike Ashley has drastically cut the asking price for someone to take the club off his hands - from asking four hundred and fifty million to two hundred and eighty million.

He'll still make a profit of fifty mil, he was just trying to be horribly greedy.

And so Spurs, how would I solve it with the players we have?

I love Ledley but we need a constant back four. Start with Woodgate and Dawson. Dawson looks good again this season. He's been stuck a few years now with hundreds of different partners but while Woodgate stays fit he'll finally have a top quality partner at the back.

We NEED Bale back badly, he adds a lot of depth down the left.

Corluka and Hutton are both top quality right backs.

Bale, Dawson, Woodgate and Corluka/Hutton is a quality back four - definitely top 8 quality.

Midfield I'm starting to feel more and more that Zokora is horribly important. He's defensive minded, he's tactical, he's relatively strong (especially for a Spurs midfielder) and he's not afraid to foray forward. He's also exactly two days older than me . We may need to build a midfield around him.

Now, if we want to play Bentley AND Lennon then we need another defensive player. Jenas is too attacking. In which case Huddlestone may actually have some use. He's big, he's strong, he can shoot from distance. True he's cross-eyed but he's alright, he's solid.

I'd then play Bentley out wide and have Lennon playing more central - his shooting is getting better and his pace is terrifying. His touch is also decent nowadays.

However I think that by playing Bentley we have started to play more hit and hope football - wang it wide to Bentley then charge into the box hoping for some kind of devine cross. He's not THAT good.

Apparantly Pavalachencko and Bent are too similar in how they play. This was a stupid mistake.

So play Bent and Jenas up front.

What does this mean?

Gomes

Hutton, Woodgate, Dawson, Bale

Lennon, Huddlestone, Zokora, O'Hara

Jenas, Bent

Meaning that every single player we bought during the summer was a big waste of money.

This team knows how to play together. Gomes is a better shot stopper than Robinson, generally less prone to mistakes apparantly, and has started catching more often thankfully.

If we need some excitement just bring Dos Santos on and tell him to run with the ball every time he gets it. His attitude may suck but sometimes a skillful, selfish player is useful.

[alldaws1]

I love Ledley but we need a constant back four. Start with Woodgate and Dawson. Dawson looks good again this season. He's been stuck a few years now with hundreds of different partners but while Woodgate stays fit he'll finally have a top quality partner at the back.

Dawson's had more injury problems as of late than Woodgate.

It's starting to be debatable whether Ramos wanted to get rid of ALL the players that went. I'm sure he originally said as soon as he joined that no-one is safe at the club except Keane and Berbatov, which was meant to be a warning to his defenders, midfielders and unreliable goalkeeper, now most of those have gone PLUS Keane and Berbatov. It really doesn't seem to make much sense, yes he's got some strikers that might even eclipse Keane and Berbatov's skill in a few years time but now's not the time to play unfinished strikers and there doesn't seem to be a complete player there.

No, he said when he joined that he wouldn't keep players at the club against their will because there were constant rumours of Berbatov and Keane wanting out.

I'd like to point out Martin Jol had a better start with Spurs than Ramos. Yeah, Jol wasn't that bad after all huh...

Martin Jol was an assistant coach at Spurs before he took the job, to be fair. And he was an excellent manager, if any Spurs fans wanted Jol gone it was a very, very small percentage.

It just seems to me that Spurs really shouldn't be where they are based on the amount of money that has been invested in new players. And I'm asking for geuine reasons when I say this (it's not an Arsenal/Spurs thing) but why, over the last two seasons have Spurs manage to struggle at the start of each season? Ok, the new manager picked it up last season, but without Ramos I think the League Cup probably wouldn't have happened and I think their poor run would have continued well into the season under the leadership of Jol. But why again this year? The Spurs board were after Ramos for weeks, if not months, before they got him. Surely that measnt ehy thought he was a good enough manager to take the club forward for more than a year?

Last year we struggled because the board bought players Martin Jol didn't want and the club didn't need and we failed to address the real problem areas of our team so Martin Jol had a tough task on his hands. I disagree with you that our run would have continued had we not got rid of Jol, though, if you look at the schedule we had a run of pretty comfortable games coming up after Jol's dismissal and I think he could have sorted things out. He was fired WAY too early.

As for this year, you have to look at the transfers. We've lost our two best players (I say lost not sold because Keane at least handed in a transfer request), not replaced them (board's fault, they knew Berbs was going) and our squad still hasn't settled in properly, we've got half of a new starting XI and a couple of those players haven't been with the team even a month yet. We have a run of what you may consider comfortable games coming up so if we're still in the bottom three halfway through November, then it may be time to panic. Football fans and the media are just too impatient.

I have never seen a flukier point in my life than the one at Stamford Bridge because they were a poor side.

Did you watch some Chelsea-biased highlights or something? That point was totally deserved, Chelsea were poor and that was our best performance of the season so far.

The problem now is truly that Ramos has gone and screwed himself over. I NEVER would have sold Robbie Keane to Liverpool, I can understand if he wanted out - however unlike Berbatov I could have seen Keane sticking around with a bit of persuasion and perhaps a new contract. Sure £20 million is a lot for Keane but bearing in mind how much of a huge player he was for Spurs I don't see how the money could replace him. It's exactly the same as Ronaldo and Man Utd, Ronaldo could make them a fortune, but why would you go to the trouble of replacing someone who is the key man in the team? Who is going to be able to come in and jump into those boots straight away? No-one, it rarely works like that in football.

Keane did want out, he handed in a transfer request even after being told we didn't want to sell him and had told Liverpool to forget it. Keane pursued the move.

Secondly Ramos' signings have been pretty poor. Giovanni Dos Santos and Luka Modric to begin with.

Nobody said that before the season began. On paper you look at those signings and you think 'wow, there's some talent there'. They're not playing well, though, whether it's the tactics or just them failing to settle into the Premier League so far.

[britneyspearsisgod]

Tottenham's problem is simply they haven't gelled as a team yet. They've got, essentially, two different teams - the English based players who would work well under a guy like Martin Jol, and the newer signings who play a different way under Juande Ramos. To me, there's a conflict of styles that they need to work out before they start hitting on all cylinders. They had a massive upheaval in playing staff over the summer. 9 players out (including two of their most influential) and 7 players in. That will have an effect.

Also, don't forget Pavlyuchenko was apart of a very succesful Russian side who performed at their best European championships since the old soviet USSR days. Not to mention Modric playing in a very solid Croatian squad. They are both talented players, as are most of Tottenham's signings. They do miss Berbatov and Keane, however it is Keane they miss more for his diversity in their attacking options. Berbatov is a talented player without question, but with the right service and the right player next to them they can still produce. This is what they had in Keane. And now they've lost that.

You also have to contend that Ramos still doesn't grasp the basic language well. It may prove to be a communication error - just a simple misunderstanding of the players towards the coaching staff. But that can change with time. It's bleeding the team together. It takes time and patience.

I honestly don't think you have much to worry about Tottenham. It just takes time. People are only panicking because the promoted teams are doing actually alright, so it's more worrying to think you may actually be in trouble. However, while no team is safe, you have a talented squad that are actually too good to go down. It's just going to take some time to get things going. I know there was expectations of a higher nature, but you have to admit it may take time to truly succeed.

[The Quasi Juice]

Secondly Ramos' signings have been pretty poor. Giovanni Dos Santos and Luka Modric to begin with.

Nobody said that before the season began. On paper you look at those signings and you think 'wow, there's some talent there'. They're not playing well, though, whether it's the tactics or just them failing to settle into the Premier League so far.

They are not poor signings though, they just haven't been performing as well as everybody expected. Dos Santos is still a very young player, so he probably needs a while to settle in (especially with the language) and I think Modric isn't used to the high speed of the Premiership so he also needs time to adapt, also maybe he functions better in a different tactic. Gomes might proof to be the best signing in the end though. You should have seen him after he had settled in The Netherlands at PSV (he loved Holland btw). He was unbeatable, easily one of the best goalies in the world. He was the reason PSV won the championship last year. Pavliyuchenko might end up being an unfortunate signing. He is great in the Russian national team but I'm afraid that's because of Hiddink, same with Arshavin. Everybody is in love with Arshavin but I think he won't succeed outside Russia.

[stokeriño]

I have never seen a flukier point in my life than the one at Stamford Bridge because they were a poor side.

Did you watch some Chelsea-biased highlights or something? That point was totally deserved, Chelsea were poor and that was our best performance of the season so far.

QFT. I was there. We sucked.

[TAFKA Castroneves]

Everyone raises some very good points, although I always said that Dos Santos and Modric would be players that could not jump straight into the first team. They are two good players, both possibly over-rated slightly in my view but thats everyones opinon. Without being rude to Tottenham, bearing in mind both these players were available to transfer in the summer and teams like Man Utd and Arsenal were sniffing, surely alarm bells should have gone off when Fergie and Wenger both realised how over-rated these two players are and how they wouldnt gell into the premier league.

[Terry Funk]

Gomes might proof to be the best signing in the end though. You should have seen him after he had settled in The Netherlands at PSV (he loved Holland btw). He was unbeatable, easily one of the best goalies in the world. He was the reason PSV won the championship last year.

I would agree entirely. Accompanied by Alex, they were a phenominal partnership.

[stokeriño]

Transcript of Joe Kinnear's first official press conference:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/oc...d.premierleague

That is fucking hilarious.

[Baddar]

Anyone got a video of this by chance...?

[9 to 5]

No, but I have the audio with the swearing bleeped out.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/200...15875-20767990/