"Soccer" is destroying America!

[Kaney]

In my experience this is part of the issue that Americans (ie - the casual fan, or the sports fan that doesn't actually know the game) have with soccer. After all is said and done, you can have a match come down to nothing more than luck. American Football, Baseball, Basketball, and even Hockey now all actually finish the game/match by PLAYING. The concept of a tie/draw is lost on the majority of Americans. Our sports finish the game. Soccer doesn't.

I'm not looking for a silly arguement, but statements like this one just are why people bitch so much about american attitudes. How does "soccer" not finish the game? Just because american sports are broken in favour of producing a winner one way or the other, doesn't make them superior. The problem is that apparently you guys can't accept that sometimes, both teams are equally matched, and fight each other to a standstill. It's not ALWAYS "oh both teams are incompetent". I'm not saying you're stupid for not understanding, but statements like these make you sound really condescending about it, when the problem is on your behalf for failing to understand.

Winning the ultimate prize in soccer (the World Cup) by the luck of a shootout as opposed to actual play ? Flat out bullshit. The sport itself doesn't lend to the mindset of Americans outside the "understanding" of the game. Other sports all have the same general format.

This is bullshit as well. Because no footballer has any actual talent, right? They don't "actually play" the game? Ugh. The reason it goes to penalties isn't because they players were sitting around killing time for 90 minutes, it's that they were unable to get a significant advantage over the other team. I'm not even the biggest fan of football, UKers in particular take it WAY too seriously, but even I can understand the amount of skill required by premier league and world class players. If the only experience of "soccer" that Americans ever had was watching a pub team play, I could understand this mentality, but there's an infinitely higher amount of skill required to put the ball in the net behind a goalie than it does to avoid being tackled, considering "soccer" players have to do that anyway, without the benefit of using their divine hands to carry the ball. Yeah, it's a lot less physical, but a lot more skillfull.

Also, the article is lol.

[naiwf]

Why are you so many of you getting upset because one country in the world doesn't like your sport? Talk about elitist. I do not care if everyone outside of the borders of the US thinks American football is boring, slow, barbaric, antiquated, pussified, too commercial intensive etc. because *I* love it and at the end of the day that's all that matters. If "soccer" is your thing, just watch it and don't let people who don't like/get it bother you so much. There are many more reasons to hate Americans than our disdain for the "other" football.

[-A-]

I think a lot of people were just talking about the merits of the sport (and sports in general) which is pretty interesting IMO. We managed to have some interesting discussion in the 'Least Favourite Sport' thread for example. It's just that some people will use any excuse to lol, America and some people will look for any excuse to make anything into a lol, America statement.

EDIT: And Kaney, I don't think that's what HTTK meant by 'actual play.' The normal game of football is what happens in the 90 minutes and extra time. The ability to take/save a penalty is a pretty tiny part of the normal game of football, but that's how a lot of European, cup and international games are settled. If matches were settled by a competition to see who could take the longest throw-in, that wouldn't really be fair. Taking penalties is not really all that related to who's the better team - football's about passing and creating chances and scoring goals.

Edited March 14, 2009 by -A-

[naiwf]

I think a lot of people were just talking about the merits of the sport (and sports in general) which is pretty interesting IMO. We managed to have some interesting discussion in the 'Least Favourite Sport' thread for example. It's just that some people will use any excuse to lol, America and some people will look for any excuse to make anything into a lol, America statement.

I'm not the biggest fan of the sport but would say that at its highest level it requires much more skill and conditioning than the "big four" do in the US simply due to the substitution rules/lack of timeouts. The major sticking point is that most Americans are fans of high scoring games. Your average fan would prefer to see an NFL game with 50+ points scored as opposed to a 7-3 game full of smashmouth running. The NBA was at its popularity peak in the '80s and early-mid '90s when the scoring was way higher than it is today. MLB was saved after the strike in '94 by juicing up the ball, the players and diminishing the size of almost every stadium out there to the point that scoring went up drastically. Back in '68 they even changed the height of the mound because pitchers were gaining an "unfair" advantage. These factors also play into why hockey is dying here because the Devils and their red zone trap proved to be a successful way to win (and also bore spectators to sleep).

You will never be able to entertain millions of Americans if there's a chance that after 2 hours of activity you could end up with a 0-0 tie. We're just not wired that way.

[-A-]

Yeah, football definitely isn't a game for the casual fan in any way. Even now I think I appreciate things like the ability to keep possession or make runs off the ball more than I used to. If it weren't for the fact that football is a totally dominant sport over here and I knew all the players, the teams, transfers and everything, I'd still say I prefer rugby. For sitting down and watching a random match that I know nothing about, I prefer rugby union. I find more interest in the forward battles, I think a well-worked try from the midfielders is something better than most beautiful goals in football and most gaes have at least something like that. But I still watch football far more because I'm interested in the transfers, I can watch more games on TV and I've grown up with it.

[therockbox]

Yeah, football definitely isn't a game for the casual fan in any way.

I think it is, especially under Sky. Look at the criticism Chelsea were getting under Mourinho for not playing 'attractive' football. Obviously the definition of attractive football is subjective, but there's an ever growing number of casual fans that go to the football to be entertained rather than support their team. For me that's the reason why Arsene Wenger is given a relatively free pass for his lack of success over the last 5 years, whilst Rafa Benitez is lambasted despite winning more trophies over the same period. Even off the pitch they're trying to turn it into a sport for the casual fan - stadiums playing music when a goal is scored, supporters not allowed to stand, certain clubs telling fans to keep the noise down. It's not far away from having some blert standing in front of each terrace holding up signs saying 'cheer/boo/clap' etc.

Edited March 14, 2009 by therockbox

[HailtotheYo]

EDIT: And Kaney, I don't think that's what HTTK meant by 'actual play.' The normal game of football is what happens in the 90 minutes and extra time. The ability to take/save a penalty is a pretty tiny part of the normal game of football, but that's how a lot of non-league games are settled. If matches were settled by a competition to see who could take the longest throw-in, that wouldn't really be fair. Taking penalties is not really all that related to who's the better team - football's about passing and creating chances and scoring goals.

Kaney, ^ that's geared more to what I was saying. I don't fit into the typical "American" in terms of soccer. I love/appreciate/understand/etc the game. However, the number of Americans that actually get the game in terms of sport (past a high school varisty sport level) are far outweight by the "sports fan." With soccer being number 6 (at best) on the ladder here, the specific things that make up the identity of the sport are going to be taken as the exception rather than the rule. All the other sports in the US follow A, while soccer follows B. Why SHOULD it make sense to the casual sports fan ? It goes against everything that they understand about sports in general.

I'm not defending that stance by any means. I'm merely pointing out. As your post entailed, it's a lack of understanding in terms of the game. How though, can you crap on someone when you don't understand the concepts that they grow up with.

American football doesn't come down to a skills competition between the QB's to see who wins a game. The Super Bowl would continue until the GAME was done. They wouldn't stop the game and then have the two starting QB's do a target practice to determine the Super Bowl winner. The NBA Finals don't go to a three point shootout, Baseball doesn't go to Home Run Derby. They actually play the game in order to determine the winner. That's what I'm talking about. You're casual sports fan is going to see a penalty shootout in soccer and think "why the fuck they play the 120m for then ?" The skill involved in the sport and the athleticism of soccer players isn't the issue. America gets that. Soccer is the number one youth sport in the country. That isn't the issue.

I never once said that American sports were superior. As Naiwf stated, we just aren't wired the way you need to be in order to grasp soccer completely (most of us). That would be the fail of whomever can't grasp that.

EDIT - TRB, the casual fan you're talking about isn't the one that exists in America. The casual fan here doesn't have soccer as the top sport. Entirely different animal.

Edited March 14, 2009 by HailtotheKing

[therockbox]

EDIT - TRB, the casual fan you're talking about isn't the one that exists in America. The casual fan here doesn't have soccer as the top sport. Entirely different animal.

Yeah, I was just saying that I think football is turning into a sport for the casual fan over here, nothing to do with America because like you said, we've got entirely different mindsets.

[Cactus Drags]

Why are you so many of you getting upset because one country in the world doesn't like your sport? Talk about elitist. I do not care if everyone outside of the borders of the US thinks American football is boring, slow, barbaric, antiquated, pussified, too commercial intensive etc. because *I* love it and at the end of the day that's all that matters. If "soccer" is your thing, just watch it and don't let people who don't like/get it bother you so much. There are many more reasons to hate Americans than our disdain for the "other" football.

I get fucking sick of these arguments all the time, and it's largely due to pig-headed British fans. I'd like to say it's because it's ingrained from birth, there's always a ball to kick, the sport is played right from primary school age...but then, you guys do the same with American football, baseball and basketball.

When it comes down to it, football is dull. It's slow, despite what some people say, there's far too much quitting and giving up (kicking the ball all the way back to the 'keeper from an attack, hoofing the ball clear on defense with no real aim etc.), and nowadays there's far too much diving and pussying about. And the ganging-up on the referee stuff that seems to be going now is utter bullshit too, if it were up to me, anyone hounding the officials like that would be sent off, no arguments. The refereeing is generally abysmal too. I'm not saying there's no skill or talent involved in football, but there's a reason I tend to watch the Showboat section on Soccer AM more often than I do full games, and it's definitely not because of the flavour-of-the-week indie/hip-hop they put on in the background. Doesn't help that the talent chasm between the top tier and lower leagues is astronomical, that seriously needs fixing.

I think I'm actually turned more against football due to the arrogance of some fans, I mean I have no problem with people enjoying it, but why do I suffer endless needling about padding and the holier-than-swiss-cheese arguments of being "rugby for pussies" just because I prefer American football or ice hockey? Don't even get me started on rugby >_>

[Asuka's Gonna Kill You]

Why are you so many of you getting upset because one country in the world doesn't like your sport? Talk about elitist. I do not care if everyone outside of the borders of the US thinks American football is boring, slow, barbaric, antiquated, pussified, too commercial intensive etc. because *I* love it and at the end of the day that's all that matters. If "soccer" is your thing, just watch it and don't let people who don't like/get it bother you so much. There are many more reasons to hate Americans than our disdain for the "other" football.

I get fucking sick of these arguments all the time, and it's largely due to pig-headed British fans. I'd like to say it's because it's ingrained from birth, there's always a ball to kick, the sport is played right from primary school age...but then, you guys do the same with American football, baseball and basketball.

When it comes down to it, football is dull. It's slow, despite what some people say, there's far too much quitting and giving up (kicking the ball all the way back to the 'keeper from an attack, hoofing the ball clear on defense with no real aim etc.), and nowadays there's far too much diving and pussying about. And the ganging-up on the referee stuff that seems to be going now is utter bullshit too, if it were up to me, anyone hounding the officials like that would be sent off, no arguments. The refereeing is generally abysmal too. I'm not saying there's no skill or talent involved in football, but there's a reason I tend to watch the Showboat section on Soccer AM more often than I do full games, and it's definitely not because of the flavour-of-the-week indie/hip-hop they put on in the background. Doesn't help that the talent chasm between the top tier and lower leagues is astronomical, that seriously needs fixing.

I think I'm actually turned more against football due to the arrogance of some fans, I mean I have no problem with people enjoying it, but why do I suffer endless needling about padding and the holier-than-swiss-cheese arguments of being "rugby for pussies" just because I prefer American football or ice hockey? Don't even get me started on rugby >_>

Sorry, I'm not one of the people moaning about American Football or America in general, but how the fuck can you call Football slow as if American Football is any quicker with there fucking minute breaks every thirty seconds? I love watching American Football, but I don't get how anyone can claim football to be a slow sport. And football isn't just about skills and showboating.

And I don't really get this 'oh the casual fan doesn't care for football' as that's complete bollocks and can be argued for any sport. I didn't give two fucks about American Football at first and it took a while to actually like and understand the game through the 23728727837827 rules it has. And the reason a lot of English fans seem arrogant around the sport is because they fucking love it. Football is actually a huge part of many peoples lifes, so that's a big reason as to why a lot become over protective of it and things surrounding it.

Can we all at least agree that fucking 'soccer' isn't DESTROYING America?

[Cactus Drags]

Why are you so many of you getting upset because one country in the world doesn't like your sport? Talk about elitist. I do not care if everyone outside of the borders of the US thinks American football is boring, slow, barbaric, antiquated, pussified, too commercial intensive etc. because *I* love it and at the end of the day that's all that matters. If "soccer" is your thing, just watch it and don't let people who don't like/get it bother you so much. There are many more reasons to hate Americans than our disdain for the "other" football.

I get fucking sick of these arguments all the time, and it's largely due to pig-headed British fans. I'd like to say it's because it's ingrained from birth, there's always a ball to kick, the sport is played right from primary school age...but then, you guys do the same with American football, baseball and basketball.

When it comes down to it, football is dull. It's slow, despite what some people say, there's far too much quitting and giving up (kicking the ball all the way back to the 'keeper from an attack, hoofing the ball clear on defense with no real aim etc.), and nowadays there's far too much diving and pussying about. And the ganging-up on the referee stuff that seems to be going now is utter bullshit too, if it were up to me, anyone hounding the officials like that would be sent off, no arguments. The refereeing is generally abysmal too. I'm not saying there's no skill or talent involved in football, but there's a reason I tend to watch the Showboat section on Soccer AM more often than I do full games, and it's definitely not because of the flavour-of-the-week indie/hip-hop they put on in the background. Doesn't help that the talent chasm between the top tier and lower leagues is astronomical, that seriously needs fixing.

I think I'm actually turned more against football due to the arrogance of some fans, I mean I have no problem with people enjoying it, but why do I suffer endless needling about padding and the holier-than-swiss-cheese arguments of being "rugby for pussies" just because I prefer American football or ice hockey? Don't even get me started on rugby >_>

Sorry, I'm not one of the people moaning about American Football or America in general, but how the fuck can you call Football slow as if American Football is any quicker with there fucking minute breaks every thirty seconds? I love watching American Football, but I don't get how anyone can claim football to be a slow sport. And football isn't just about skills and showboating.

And I don't really get this 'oh the casual fan doesn't care for football' as that's complete bollocks and can be argued for any sport. I didn't give two fucks about American Football at first and it took a while to actually like and understand the game through the 23728727837827 rules it has. And the reason a lot of English fans seem arrogant around the sport is because they fucking love it. Football is actually a huge part of many peoples lifes, so that's a big reason as to why a lot become over protective of it and things surrounding it.

Can we all at least agree that fucking 'soccer' isn't DESTROYING America?

That is absolutely no reason at all to be a complete prick towards someone who isn't a big fan of the sport, don't be fucking stupid.

Football is not fast. It's not broken up like American football is, but it doesn't make it fast or action-packed, it just flows more. You're better off comparing it in that aspect to ice hockey, which flows just as much, with rolling subs no less, more happens in a shorter space of time, it's much more exciting. I get that a lot of the time we're all going to be arguing our own opinions and we're not going to see eye to eye on anything, but I really don't see a lot to football, certainly not in terms of strategy, which is why I like American football. Yeah, it's broken up, but I'd wager there's more going on in those 5-10 second bursts than there is in 5-10 minutes of football. And I'm sure it's not all showboating in football, but there's fuck all else there to hold my attention on the whole.

[DMN in the House]

Kinda agree with Dragsy. Soccer is a fine sport, and I enjoy watching it as much as I enjoy watching, say, a basketball game. That is, more than a baseball game, less than NFL, college football, or hockey. The reason for a lot of the arguments on here is the arrogance and demeanor of the people debating. One sport is as good as another, none is superior. Watch what you like, discuss it with people that follow it, and leave the people that DON'T care for it alone. You're not fucking Christianity, stop trying to convert people.

Also, the 'NFL stops too much' arguement is bullshit. Soccer doesn't have the strategy, at least in terms of set plays and the 'game of chess' that American football does. Yes, there is obviously strategy, but not nearly as much, and not nearly as intricate. It would be impossible to have that 'game of chess' without the stops. Plus, you try getting your head knocked off by a 250 pound man that runs a 4.4 forty yard dash, then come back to me and complain about pads. Its a MUCH more violent game than even rugby or Aussie football, mostly BECAUSE of the pads.

[therockbox]

Anyone that thinks there's no strategy in football hasn't paid attention when watching. Because it's constantly flowing for 45 minutes at a time it's not as obvious as American Football, and especially when you're watching on TV. But to say there's not much strategy in football is entirely wrong.

[DMN in the House]

I never said there wasn't, but its very obvious, at least to me, which has more strategy. The simple fact that its a continually moving game means that you can't have the same amount of strategy.

[Sousa]

Bah, the only real sport is foxy boxing.

Hubba hubba.

[therockbox]

I never said there wasn't, but its very obvious, at least to me, which has more strategy. The simple fact that its a continually moving game means that you can't have the same amount of strategy.

They're different types though. In American Football tactics and strategies can be sorted before every play, whereas in football managers have to get any changes over whilst the game is being played. So changing a formation slightly to give an opposing player less space or to ensure someone is tracking a runner isn't noticeable unless you're really looking out for it, but it's definitely there.

[ClaRK! Kent]

I don't usually post about Sports, but Sousa directed me here and frankly there's been a lot of BS spewed.

The original article is utter trash, and I'm stunned that 4 pages-worth of posts have dignified it with discussion.

That said, the reason football/soccer isn't big in America is actually socio-political, stemming back to when the sport first took off globally in the late 19th century and the early 1900s, a time when the USA was engaged in a policy so staggeringly isolationist that it was a shock they didn't close their borders. Add that to the inherent differences in the 'psyche' of America compared to not just Europeans but the ENTIRE rest of the world (oh yeah, let's not boil this down to old Europe vs. new America when the rest of the world is also totally enamoured with football) and you're going to have difficulties exporting the game to the USA. It's sad, actually, because a good game of football (despite what people have said, 0-0 draws are often really dull and the phrase 'not a game for the neutral' is widely-used in football journalism) is probably the most exciting sports-related event in the world. I'm thinking of England vs. Brazil in 1970, the 1966 World Cup final, and more recently the Liverpool vs. Milan Champions League final in 2005, classic games that totally dispel the "boring" myths about football. The fact is that basketball and American football have 'higher scoring games' is largely due to the fact that, for example, in basketball you can score 2 or 3 points whereas in football/soccer every goal is worth 1.

It's a question, really, of what you want out of a game - football fans are amongst the most passionate and dedicated in the world, and the concept of 'entertaining football' for me is something straight out of the Americanisation and dumbing-down of British culture. Alas. It's not a sport that would go over well in the States, because the concept of a 'draw' or a game where you can dominate but still lose are completely alien to the modern American popular psyche. Still, it's becoming more popular, and perhaps in 10 years we'll be having a different conversation.

EDIT: Also, to point out - the quality of the game in America is DIRE. Absolutely awful, from grassroots up to the international level. Which, actually, does make a difference. I live in Brighton, where there's only one team who have been pretty much awful for the last 15-20 years, especially since their financial issues in the late 90s. In Brighton, it's stunning to me (largely because I come from Bristol where people are massively passionate about the game) that younger people don't seem to care all that much about football, perhaps because there's never been a team they can go and watch that has anything approaching quality. Most locals I meet support London teams, or Liverpool or whatever, a Brighton & Hove Albion fan is a rare sight. So it's not surprising that it's not that big in the States, where the best teams would struggle to make waves in League One over here.

Edited March 15, 2009 by RK! Cregg

[Sousa]

straight out of the Americanisation and dumbing-down of British culture

Oh God, don't start this again.

[ClaRK! Kent]

Separate issues. Dumbing-down on the one hand, Americanisation on the other. Our popular culture is now at least 60% imported from America, and the stuff we create ourselves is incresingly dumbed-down and catered for the lowest common denomintor. I love America, it's a fucking awesome place and I love Americans too, but I do think we should be able to fill our own TV schedules and movie theatres without relying almost exclusively on imports from the USA.

[-A-]

The fact is that basketball and American football have 'higher scoring games' is largely due to the fact that, for example, in basketball you can score 2 or 3 points whereas in football/soccer every goal is worth 1.

That's really not true at all, come on. Football games average anywhere between 2.5 and 3 'scores' per game depending on the league. Basketball averages something like 75 scores per game and the NFL average is roughly 6 scores per game, I think (possibly one more.)