2009/2010 NBA Thread

[naiwf]

The MVP generally is considered the best player in the league right? Nash was never the best player in the league. He won his first MVP because the Suns improved by more games than the Heat did with Shaq all while Dallas also improved without Nash. He won his second MVP because he had a better season than he did the year before, although Kobe and LeBron's numbers were insane that year (Nash 18.8/4.2/10.5, LeBron 31.4/7.0/6.6, Kobe 35.4/5.3/4.5). Even when his team got the # 1 seed in the playoffs they still never made it to the Finals. A back to back MVP has to get his team to the Finals at least once in his career.

Yeah, I screwed up on the winning thing but that still doesn't change anything. Just because the voters have screwed up the award by giving it to the best player or the most popular player doesn't mean Nash didn't deserve it. It is not a team award. It is a regular season award.

How can you be the MVP when the playoff team you left got better without you? Can you picture any team losing an in their prime Jordan, Magic, Bird, Malone, AI, KG, Dirk, Kobe, LeBron etc improving without them?

How can you be the MVP again when two guys put up all time great seasons that dwarfed your numbers as an individual if it isn't a team award?

04-05, he took the Suns tobest record in the league. Yes, the Mavs improved but Nowitzki was better this year. They made other moves around him that got other pieces in there. There was a different coach and a different in place at the end of the season where the Mavs finished on a 16-2 or 18-2 run to finish the season. Again, hardly a knock on Nash.

Take a look at that 05-06 Suns. How many games would they have won without Nash? You want to talk about Kobe's great season, Nash beat him in the playoffs so yes his team went further since you want to use the team going far logic. Suns were a 2 seed in the West that year. Lakers were 7th. Cavs were a 4th seed in the East.

You do realize you're making my argument for me right? As I said in the first post he put up mediocre numbers (15.5 and 11.5 isn't even enough to make the NBA 2nd team most seasons) and won his 1st MVP because the Suns had a better season to season improvement than Shaq's Heat did although no one factored in that Dallas was also better off w/o Nash into the equation. His second MVP came because he had better numbers than the year before even though LeBron was basically 31-7-7, Kobe was 35-5-4 and Dirk led his team to a 60 win season (6 better than Phoenix) in the West while putting up 26-10-3 compared to Nash's 19-4-10. If you had lesser numbers on offense, and play no defense while Kobe was All-NBA 1st team defense and Dirk's team won more games while putting up comparable numbers how the hell are you the MVP on your own merit?

You're the guy who said it's not a team award but basically said he only won the MVP because of his team's accomplishments. That's the reason that Nash is the only MVP never to get to the NBA Finals. He's never been good enough to carry his team in the playoffs. Running and gunning and putting up 110+ every night looks great for the MVP voters, but you could argue that Nash has been the worst player ever to win the MVP and for them to make that mistake two years in a row is astounding.

[EddieG]

So, for somebody who doesn't really follow...

How likely are the Raptors to go to the playoffs?

[wrathofcarnage]

Nash was given the MVP because around that time the popularity of the NBA wasn't doing very good. Kobe, Shaq & AI were all pretty popular but a lot of the current big names hadn't been created yet. The MVPs for Nash helped showcase an exciting brand of basketball to get viewers hooked. They didn't win any championships or make it to the finals, but those Phoenix teams were fun to watch. The NBA wanted to push the run and gun style since there was a distinct lack of name players at the time. Right after and right around that time you started getting your "name" players back as Lebron, Wade and Dwight all started to emerge to join Kobe. (I would argue that Shaq and AI don't hold the same appeal currently. Well... maybe Shaq, but no way for Iverson.)

[sahyder1]

The MVP generally is considered the best player in the league right? Nash was never the best player in the league. He won his first MVP because the Suns improved by more games than the Heat did with Shaq all while Dallas also improved without Nash. He won his second MVP because he had a better season than he did the year before, although Kobe and LeBron's numbers were insane that year (Nash 18.8/4.2/10.5, LeBron 31.4/7.0/6.6, Kobe 35.4/5.3/4.5). Even when his team got the # 1 seed in the playoffs they still never made it to the Finals. A back to back MVP has to get his team to the Finals at least once in his career.

Yeah, I screwed up on the winning thing but that still doesn't change anything. Just because the voters have screwed up the award by giving it to the best player or the most popular player doesn't mean Nash didn't deserve it. It is not a team award. It is a regular season award.

How can you be the MVP when the playoff team you left got better without you? Can you picture any team losing an in their prime Jordan, Magic, Bird, Malone, AI, KG, Dirk, Kobe, LeBron etc improving without them?

How can you be the MVP again when two guys put up all time great seasons that dwarfed your numbers as an individual if it isn't a team award?

04-05, he took the Suns tobest record in the league. Yes, the Mavs improved but Nowitzki was better this year. They made other moves around him that got other pieces in there. There was a different coach and a different in place at the end of the season where the Mavs finished on a 16-2 or 18-2 run to finish the season. Again, hardly a knock on Nash.

Take a look at that 05-06 Suns. How many games would they have won without Nash? You want to talk about Kobe's great season, Nash beat him in the playoffs so yes his team went further since you want to use the team going far logic. Suns were a 2 seed in the West that year. Lakers were 7th. Cavs were a 4th seed in the East.

You do realize you're making my argument for me right? As I said in the first post he put up mediocre numbers (15.5 and 11.5 isn't even enough to make the NBA 2nd team most seasons) and won his 1st MVP because the Suns had a better season to season improvement than Shaq's Heat did although no one factored in that Dallas was also better off w/o Nash into the equation. His second MVP came because he had better numbers than the year before even though LeBron was basically 31-7-7, Kobe was 35-5-4 and Dirk led his team to a 60 win season (6 better than Phoenix) in the West while putting up 26-10-3 compared to Nash's 19-4-10. If you had lesser numbers on offense, and play no defense while Kobe was All-NBA 1st team defense and Dirk's team won more games while putting up comparable numbers how the hell are you the MVP on your own merit?

You're the guy who said it's not a team award but basically said he only won the MVP because of his team's accomplishments. That's the reason that Nash is the only MVP never to get to the NBA Finals. He's never been good enough to carry his team in the playoffs. Running and gunning and putting up 110+ every night looks great for the MVP voters, but you could argue that Nash has been the worst player ever to win the MVP and for them to make that mistake two years in a row is astounding.

No, I am not. You are completely misinterpreting what I am saying. The award is for the Most Valuable Player. Not the Best player in the league. People like you and unfortunately some voters think of it as the best player award when that is not what the award is supposed to be. Like I said, Nash was MOST VALUABLE TO HIS TEAM. Without him the team would not have been the best team in the league. Plain and simple. You're confusing with the "Best player in the league" award....an award that doesn't exist. I wouldn't have been bothered that much if Shaq had won in 04-05 but to say Nash wasn't deserving is absurd. Same goes for KG, Dirk, AI in the years they won.

So, for somebody who doesn't really follow...

How likely are the Raptors to go to the playoffs?

Yes, they will. They're lucky that the Bosh injury happened late enough in the season. If it had happened a week or two ago they would've missed out.

[Mofoticon]

The Raptors will struggle to hold off Chicago, and even if they get in will be swept easily by the Cavs.

[naiwf]

No, I am not. You are completely misinterpreting what I am saying. The award is for the Most Valuable Player. Not the Best player in the league. People like you and unfortunately some voters think of it as the best player award when that is not what the award is supposed to be. Like I said, Nash was MOST VALUABLE TO HIS TEAM. Without him the team would not have been the best team in the league. Plain and simple.

That makes no sense. If that was the criteria then Nash never should have won the second one. Without Dirk Dallas wouldn't have made the playoffs or won anywhere near 60. The Cavs would have been a lottery team without LeBron (which is obvious considering they got LeBron by being the drizzles) and the Lakers may have been the worst team in the NBA without Kobe once Shaq left.

When one guy wins the same award two years in a row for completely different reasons, the only logical conclusion is that the voters are full of shit.

[sahyder1]

I didn't say voters make sense. There are voters out there who just vote for the "best player" like you want to do but that is not what the award is supposed to be.

[Toe]

So...Chicago has just beaten the Cavs and now they draw even with the Raptors. Toronto will be without Bosh for at least a few games. This doesn't look good for the Raptors.

[Mr Evil Guy]

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeep we're fucked.

oh well, 8 seed isn't that appealing anyways.

[Toe]

So when do we start referring to the Post-Bosh era? Can we start now?

[sahyder1]

Cavs and Lakers decided to sit LeBron and Kobe respectively tonight.

[Mofoticon]

I wish the Cavs sat even more...god damn Jamison got hurt at the end and this game meant nothing at all for the Cavs

I think he'll be fine but shut down Mo and Jamison until the playoffs along with LeBron.

[naiwf]

I didn't say voters make sense. There are voters out there who just vote for the "best player" like you want to do but that is not what the award is supposed to be.

I don't want to give the award to the best player. I want to give it to the guy who puts up the best numbers on a great team, or the guy who took his team somewhere that wasn't expected because his teammates weren't supposed to be that good. This year for instance I'd give it to Durant. Without him the Thunder are a middle of the pack lottery team at best. I wouldn't give it to LeBron this year because the Cavs still had/have Jamison, Mo Williams, Shaq & Z which gives them a lot of role players who would be bigger pieces on other teams. Durant has Westbrook and a bunch of other young guys yet he's putting up almost 30 & 8 and taking the Thunder to a 50 win season in the loaded Western Conference.

Also the Spurs just gave Manu a 3 year, $38.8 million extension. They will regret that by the middle of year 2, and will likely be looking to trade that expiring contract in year 3 if Manu continues to play for Argentina.

Edited April 9, 2010 by naiwf

[DMN in the House]

Kobe/LeBron (pick'em) was the clear MVP the year Nash won his second. That was disgraceful.

[thuganomic]

naiwf, I love Kevin Durant as much as the next guy, but there is no way Lebron is not the unanimous MVP this year. The stats he's putting up are ridiculous and his team has the best record. What Durant's doing is amazing, but this is Lebron's best year in the league thus far.

[Mofoticon]

To follow up on Thug's point...the Cavs are 1-10 the past 3 years without LeBron. He does everything for them and makes everyone around him better. It's no contest.

[jrtdot]

So when do we start referring to the Post-Bosh era? Can we start now?

LOL I heard about a good rumor though...Bosh for Joakim Noah in a sign and trade?

Personally if Bosh wants to leave, that's all fine and well, if TO can swing a deal for his sayonara I say take it. Noah is a good defender, not exactly the best in offense but if TO can get something for losing Bosh, he is def a guy I'd want on his team, very scrappy and always brings the good stuff.

Of course the other one was Bosh for David Lee, which would be also suitable with how good Lee is offensively though on defense he leaves nothing to be desired :/

Discuss!

[DMN in the House]

I think we should discuss how no one outside of Canada gives a damn about the Raptors because they'll never be a factor.

Not good enough to ever make it out of the East, and not bad enough to get the type of player they'd really need. Throw in the fact that the city will never attract a top flight free agent, and they're stuck in the middle.

Only about four teams matter at any given time in the NBA. One of those will always be the Lakers (the best run organization in all of professional sports) , one will always be the Knicks (no matter how bad they are), one will usually be Boston (unless they're really bad), and the third changes based on where the best player in the league plays, meaning its currently Cleveland. Toronto isn't going to break into that tier any time soon.

I'm not saying Toronto is a bad city or anything. From what I hear, its awesome. Its just really tough to get free agents to a cold weather city unless the team has the benefits of tradition (Boston), a great plaer is already there (Chicago/Cleveland), or being New York.

Even teams like Utah struggle with it. Toronto is destined to be a mid-level team forever, and thus, irrelevant outside Canada.

[naiwf]

naiwf, I love Kevin Durant as much as the next guy, but there is no way Lebron is not the unanimous MVP this year. The stats he's putting up are ridiculous and his team has the best record. What Durant's doing is amazing, but this is Lebron's best year in the league thus far.

I know it's going to go to LeBron, but I'd personally vote for Durant. The MVP has been about a year behind every year since Nash won his 2nd. Having said that, Durant will win one in the next 2 years based on this season.

[Toe]

I think we should discuss how no one outside of Canada gives a damn about the Raptors because they'll never be a factor.

Not good enough to ever make it out of the East, and not bad enough to get the type of player they'd really need. Throw in the fact that the city will never attract a top flight free agent, and they're stuck in the middle.

Only about four teams matter at any given time in the NBA. One of those will always be the Lakers (the best run organization in all of professional sports) , one will always be the Knicks (no matter how bad they are), one will usually be Boston (unless they're really bad), and the third changes based on where the best player in the league plays, meaning its currently Cleveland. Toronto isn't going to break into that tier any time soon.

I'm not saying Toronto is a bad city or anything. From what I hear, its awesome. Its just really tough to get free agents to a cold weather city unless the team has the benefits of tradition (Boston), a great plaer is already there (Chicago/Cleveland), or being New York.

Even teams like Utah struggle with it. Toronto is destined to be a mid-level team forever, and thus, irrelevant outside Canada.

We realize this. It just stings to see our best player in franchise history just walk away, especially without making a playoff run or anything with him.