2005 MLB Thread

[jonnycomelately]

I am the biggest Barry Bonds hater in the world but sometimes players late in their careers tailor their swings for more home runs and for power because their bat speed has diminished and their batting averages are lower. For instance, Steve Finley was primarily a doubles/speed guy throughout most of his career but in the past few years he's been more of a HR guy. Same with Luis Gonzalez, he went from a slap hitter for average to a guy who hit 57 in a season. Not saying that Bonds didn't roid up because alot of signs point to him being on steroids I'm just stating the fact that it isn't that unnatural of an occurence for a player's power #'s to jump a bit later in his career as a way to keep themselves in the league.

[sahyder1]

JoeyMadDogg, how come I've never seen a post from you attacking what Clemens has and RJ have done at their age? Power pitchers aren't supposed to dominate at that age. Why the double standard between guys people like and guys people don't?

) Bonds' home run totals pretty much doubled in the season categories. How can someone who in his 20's and early 30's hit 20 to 30 home runs, but at 35+ years of age begin to hit 40,50,60+ home runs. That right there is signs of taking steroids. You are supposed to begin to suck as get past 35, not get better.

[oldskool]

) Bonds' home run totals pretty much doubled in the season categories. How can someone who in his 20's and early 30's hit 20 to 30 home runs, but at 35+ years of age begin to hit 40,50,60+ home runs. That right there is signs of taking steroids. You are supposed to begin to suck as get past 35, not get better.

It's called an improved eye at the plate. Baseball has never had a hitter with that great of an eye. How about scouting reports? Videos? Expansion?

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[sahyder1]

) Bonds' home run totals pretty much doubled in the season categories. How can someone who in his 20's and early 30's hit 20 to 30 home runs, but at 35+ years of age begin to hit 40,50,60+ home runs. That right there is signs of taking steroids. You are supposed to begin to suck as get past 35, not get better.

It's called an improved eye at the plate. Baseball has never had a hitter with that great of an eye. How about scouting reports? Videos? Expansion?

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[gunnar hendershow]

Steroids cause your head to get bigger and voice to get deeper. At least most of the ones that would cause the muscular growth which Bonds had. And Barry Bonds, with the exception of one season where he hit 73, has hovered hit around 40 or more in a season. Look at the numbers. He, for the most part of his career, has been pretty much the same hitter.

Though I do think Bonds took steroids for a fair amount of the more recent years, the bottom line is that they'd mean nothing without his eye. How come Alex Sanchez didn't hit 73 in a season? How come Jorge Piedra isn't the most feared hitter in baseball? Because they don't have the natural abilities to be a good hitter.

[sahyder1]

Prankster calling media saying Giambi fails steroid test

ESPN.com news services

Related Video:

Yankees struggle, falling back in AL East

Jason Giambi's breakout month -- 14 homers, 24 RBI in July -- apparently has given rise to a prank caller.

2005 SEASON STATISTICS

GM  HR  RBI  R  OBP  AVG

88  19  47  43  .443  .284

A man has been calling media outlets, claiming to be the assistant to Yankees president Randy Levine, with information that Giambi had tested positive for steroids, the New York Daily News reported Thursday.

In response, Yankees officials have asked the New York Police Department to find the caller, who claimed Major League Baseball would announce the failed test Friday.

A team and a league source both told the Daily News that Giambi, who has been tested at least once this season, has not failed MLB's steroid tests.

"If he had [tested positive], everybody would know," one source told the paper. "He's been clean."

The team source also said Levine does not have a male assistant.

"I'm very happy for him. He's gone through a great deal, worked very hard, has proven to be a winner and I'm proud of him. I'm proud of Jason Giambi," George Steinbrenner said in a statement received by the paper.

Giambi hit 14 homers in July, becoming the first Yankee to hit that many in a month since Mickey Mantle in 1961. He was hitting a season-low .195 on May 9, but has raised his average to .284.

Edited August 4, 2005 by sahyder1

[gunnar hendershow]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2124490

Bench coach Perlozzo named interim manager

ESPN.com news services

ANAHEIM, Calif. -- The Baltimore Orioles fired manager Lee Mazzilli on Thursday with the team mired in an eight-game losing streak and still reeling from Rafael Palmeiro's positive drug test.

The Orioles have made bench coach Sam Perlozzo the interim manager for the remainder of the season.

The announcement was made just two hours before Baltimore's game at Anaheim.

Coming into Thursday, the Orioles were 51-56 and 10½ games behind first-place Boston in the AL East.

The Orioles finished 78-84 in 2004, Mazzilli's first season, and this year appeared on course to ending a run of seven straight losing seasons.

Baltimore got off a solid start and on April 23 gained sole possession of first place in the AL East, ahead of the defending champion Boston Red Sox and the New York Yankees.

The Orioles stayed on top through June 23. Baltimore was in second place, just one game back, on July 15 -- the day Palmeiro became the fourth player in baseball history to collect at least 3,000 hits and 500 homers.

But Baltimore then went on the skid that cost Mazzilli his job. From July 16 through Wednesday, the Orioles lost 16 of 18 -- including their last eight in a row -- to fall into fourth place behind division-leading Boston.

Perlozzo, 54, is in his 10th season with the Orioles, spending his first five as third base coach before becoming bench coach in 2001.

Perlozzo is in his 19th season as a major-league coach, having also served on the staffs of the New York Mets, Cincinnati Reds and Seattle Mariners. He was a manager in the Mets system from 1982 to 1986 and compiled a 364-263 record, winning three league championships and never having a losing record.

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

Not a shock at all. Perlozzo should have gotten the job over Maz two years ago anyway. There was an article in The Sun yesterday regarding how Angelos' utter silence signified that unless Mazzilli started winning now he was gone at the end of the season. Turns out the change came sooner than expected.

I really am rooting for Perlozzo as I've been a fan of his for years and think he could do a great job. All he needs to do is not be Mazzilli, who sat in the dugout and let his entire team fall apart.

[Ananas]

Jays beat up on the Big Unit today. We're back with 2.5 of the Yanks, and put another game between us and the O's. Hopefully the Twins can pull of another win to put is within 6 of the division lead.

[mattman1624]

I have to admit, I thought this year would be a rebuilding year for the A's. With the loss of Hudson & Mulder, I expected a .500 season or worse. I won't type I knew the A's would be tied for first at this point in the season after their disasterous month of May.

Now, of course, I'm excited for the next three games against the Angels, and the rest of the season. It's going to be one hell of ride!

Edited August 8, 2005 by mattman1624

[gunnar hendershow]

Well, I expected the Orioles to have a record around what we currently have all year. So the times in which we were good were a very pleasant surprise. Now it's back to reality.

[Lowerdeck]

I think most people wrote off Oakland in this year. However, they still had many good young pitchers who could carry the team much like the old Big 3. And they are a good 2nd half team.

However, yeah - who expected them to be first right now?

[gunnar hendershow]

I thought that the A's would finish second, but I thought their record would be 82-80 or so. I had a firm belief the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, California, USA, Planet Earth were going to run away with the division the way the ChiSox are running away with the Central.

[sahyder1]

Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, California, USA, Planet Earth

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[gunnar hendershow]

Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, California, USA, Planet Earth

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You're about 6 months slow with that attempt at humor. The Angels will still win the West. Mark my words. We have a far better lineup the A's and I'd take our defense and bullpen over theirs any day of the week. I still expect some sort of infusion from Cabrera and Finley who've both been useless thus far.

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Hence why I used it in my mention of a preseason prediction.

[ACCBiggz]

I still laughed... The Angels dropped to maybe my least favorite team after the whole change of names...

[Lowerdeck]

I just ignore the Los Angeles part. They will be Anaheim to me as long as they play there.

[sahyder1]

solid pitcher's duel in the Bronx going on right now. Chacon (the Yankees ace....hehe) threw 7 solid innings allowing 3 hits. Contreras who couldn't pitch the last couple of years if his life depended on it has a 2 hitter going against the Yanks.

[sahyder1]

crazy stuff. Some kid fell off the upper deck at Yankee stadium but got caught in the netting they have behind homeplate to protect fans from foul balls. That netting saved the man's life.

[Green Demon]

Wow the Indians game is crazy they are playing the Royals and they were playing terrible and were down 7-2 at the top of the ninth so I turn off the tv and figure the game is done. I guess I was wrong the start scoring a few runs and it is 5-7, still it aint that close. This is when things starti getting werid. Coco Crisp pops it to center and there really isnt anthing hard about the ball but the Royals shortstop just drops the ball and the tribe scores a run to put it at 6-7 they were able to get the out at 2nd since the guy though that it was going to be caught and didnt run to secound. So thier is two outs and next guy comes to the plate, he hits it to semi deep left and it is another easy ball to catch, and once again the guy just drops it, which ties up the game. So a guy is on secound 2 outs but the game is tied, another hit into the out field but it could be close if the the outfilder can handle it and it just goes off his shin giving the tribe the lead. They scored a few more after that and needless to say I would hate to be a Royals fan if there is such a thing. Likely will see this on SC or BBTN.

[sahyder1]

If we really cared about cheating ...

Stark

By Jayson Stark

ESPN.com

Archive

"It's not cheating if everyone is doing it."

--BALCO legend Victor Conte  "I didn't begin cheating until late in my career."

--Whitey Ford

"It ain't cheating if you don't get caught."

--Billy Martin

Here in America, nothing outrages us as a society more than cheating.

Unless, of course, it's a pitcher who is doing it.

INSIDER RUMBLINGS

What do GMs think about the date of the trade deadline? Which trades were discussed but never happened? Will Curt Schilling return to Boston's rotation? Jayson Stark addresses those Rumblings and more. Story Insider

We want Rafael Palmeiro to quit, to confess, to be thrown in the slammer by Congress and to be kept out of Cooperstown, N.Y., -- even if we have to call in the National Guard.

But Gaylord Perry can sign autographs for 20 bucks a scribble every year on Hall of Fame Induction Day. And Whitey Ford can pose for pictures with our wives and our fathers and our babies outside the Doubleday Cafe.

So why is that? We'd love to have someone explain it to us.

It's a phenomenon we've noticed since Steroid Mania began raging in our streets. And we know we're not the only ones who have.

For some reason, there is only one form of cheating that seems to offend us anymore. And that is guys who cheat to hit more home runs. Period.

No one grumbles about pitchers who scuff up baseballs with their belt buckles and their wedding rings.

No one screams about pitchers who fiddle with their cap, wipe their brow, rub their hands through their hair gel and then fire pitches that break three feet.

No one calls a talk show about middle relievers or fifth starters who test positive for illegally ingesting whatever.

But Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire and Palmeiro are right up there with Al Capone, Vincent Gotti and Jack the Ripper: Criminals. Hoodlums. Disgraces to their sport and to their planet.

Now this is not a column meant to defend them or excuse them or rationalize for them. Before you start e-mailing, please understand that.

This is just a column meant to pose a question we can't answer. This is a column intended to point out the double standard that has always governed our attitude toward cheating in sports.

Some cheaters make us laugh. Other cheaters make us crazy. Does that make any sense?

There is a message in here someplace. We're just trying to find it. And we're starting by pondering the eternal question of what we do and don't consider to be "real" cheating.

"To me," says Phillies closer Billy Wagner, "guys who scuff the ball or put pine tar on the ball -- that's not cheating."

And many people -- inside and outside of baseball -- agree. That kind of cheating is just baseball's equivalent of fudging on your income-tax deductions or embellishing an expense account.

It's not cheating. It's "gamesmanship."

"If you get away with it," Wagner laughs, "it's fine."

Fine? Heck, it's amusing -­ if the right guy does it. Gaylord Perry used to make jokes about doing Vaseline commercials. And nobody cared. Heck, they laughed.

"It bothers me that people still laugh about what Gaylord Perry did," says SABR home run historian David Vincent. "And what he did was clearly against the rules of baseball. I keep asking 'Where's the moral indignation about those other things?' ... I guess I just don't understand the meaning of 'gamesmanship.' It's cheating."

Ah, but that's not how we look at it. Is it? Sure, there's a difference between a spitball and a syringe. But there are also some significant similarities.

"The definition of 'gamesmanship' is something you do to give yourself an advantage," Vincent says. "But isn't that what these power hitters were doing -- trying to give themselves an advantage by muscling up?"

Sure. And remember, they were doing it, at least until the last couple of years, in a sport that had no rules against it. Not to mention in an environment where many players looked around and saw "everyone else" doing it -- so it seemed crazy not to.

Of course, as many of you have pointed out, if steroid use was so socially acceptable, why did these players work so hard to hide it? You also have hammered on another point: They were breaking actual laws. So why do they deserve forgiveness?

“  There's no doubt that pitchers cheat. But it's always overshadowed by home runs. ... It's the home run hitters people look for when they go to the ballpark. They don't care about Billy Wagner. They care about where Jim Thome is. They want to see the ball leave the park. ”

  — Phillies closer Billy Wagner

Well, they don't deserve forgiveness. And we've never argued they did. But the Hall of Fame is filled with men who broke all sorts of laws -- including federal drug laws. They just happened to involve a different kind of drug.

So what this really comes down to is this:

We love home runs. We especially love really long home runs. So by extension, we love our hallowed home run records. We love them more than any other records in sports. And if those records are being threatened by "cheaters," now that offends us.

"And I think the reason why," Vincent says, "is that those home run records were held for years by Babe Ruth. I really think that's what has propelled this. It's a lot like what happened with Roger Maris and the asterisk in 1961. The feeling was: 'We're going to find a way to keep Babe Ruth at the top of the list.' And it's a similar feeling now. We don't want anybody to tarnish what Babe Ruth did."

So how can we pull that off? By dusting off those asterisks and stamping them all over the records of Bonds and McGwire. Or better yet, expunge those records entirely. That'll preserve the sanctity of the Babe and his numbers, right? That'll tell the world how strongly we feel about maintaining the purity of our sport.

OK, fine. Let's do it. But the trouble is, if we do, we can't stop there. If the theories are right -- that just as many pitchers were taking steroids as hitters -- what about their records?

And then comes the really hard part: If we're going to make all those stats and all those records disappear, what do we do about wins and losses?

After all, there's nothing more amazing, when we hear this issue kicked around, than the fact that something much bigger than any record has undoubtedly been affected by these players who used steroids -- and it's never discussed.

What about the games these men changed? What about the seasons they changed? What about the postseasons they changed? What about the World Series they changed?

If you strip Barry Bonds' records because of what you think he did, what would you like done with the results of that 2002 postseason -- a postseason that ended with Bonds' team playing (and losing) Game 7 of the World Series? Obliterate them?

Well, you can't. Obviously. But isn't it kind of bizarre that you never even hear that question debated? If we really cared about cheating, if we really cared about righting all the wrongs perpetrated by that cheating, shouldn't that be the first issue we debate?

But we gloss over that, and why? Because it's too complicated? Maybe. But we don't think that's what this is about. What it's really about is The Almighty Home Run.

"There's no doubt that pitchers cheat," says Billy Wagner. "But it's always overshadowed by home runs. ... Pitchers are a dime a dozen. It's the home run hitters people look for when they go to the ballpark. They don't care about Billy Wagner. They care about where Jim Thome is. They want to see the ball leave the park."

Yes, they do. So it only seems to follow that the things we care about most are the same things that outrage us most when we find out they weren't what we thought they were. We get that part of this issue.

But if this steroid outrage is really about the criminal act of cheating, then how can we stop there? Either we care about cheating, or we don't. And if we do, how can we justify picking and choosing which crimes are worth prosecuting?

That's a question we can't answer. So we've posed the question. We've opened the debate. Now where do we go from here? Sorry, we can't answer that one, either.

Jayson Stark is a senior writer for ESPN.com.