The 2007 Major League Baseball Thread

[sahyder1]

There wasn't OVERWHELMING evidence against Mark McGwire, who also is a cheater.

Bonds would've been a first ballot Hall of Famer regardless, but decided to cheat because he was jealous of the attention McGwire & Sammy Sosa received in 1998. According to reports, Bonds started using in 1999, anything from 1999 till drug testing came in, should have an asterik.

Yes.....aside from the bottle of andro and stuff in his locker :blink: How exactly is Bonds a cheater if he didn't break any rules? There were no rules against steroids in baseball....blame MLB. We have no way of knowing how many guys took them. Plus the fact that 99% of the players who've failed steroid tests still sucked says something. You still need the talent. Bonds was a first ballot Hall of Famer before 1999 when he allegedly started to take steroids.

Edited August 8, 2007 by sahyder1

[naiwf]

I think he was saying before the 'roid allegations Bonds had already done 400/400. I just don't see why everyone's out to ONLY get Barry when Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Giambi, Sheffield, Tejada, Pudge and others all had similar body changes and increased production in power and that only names a select few. It also boggles my mind how no one wonders how Clemens got better in his late 30's/early 40's. The guy was always a workout nut, but how did he gain extra velocity "past his prime" without a little help? I mean, I know WHY they don't question Clemens, I'm just curious why no one ever wonders about him considering he's 45 now and his best years also came during the 'roid era. Dude was shot from '93 to '96 and then became the greatest pitcher known to man the year he turned 35, all of a sudden . . . while everyone in baseball was cheating. But he was the one guy who did it naturally. Riiiight.

Edited August 8, 2007 by naiwf

[sahyder1]

I think he was saying before the 'roid allegations Bonds had already done 400/400. I just don't see why everyone's out to ONLY get Barry when Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Giambi, Sheffield, Tejada, Pudge and others all had similar body changes and increased production in power and that only names a select few. It also boggles my mind how no one wonders how Clemens got better in his late 30's/early 40's. The guy was always a workout nut, but how did he gain extra velocity "past his prime" without a little help? I mean, I know WHY they don't question Clemens, I'm just curious why no one ever wonders about him considering he's 45 now and his best years also came during the 'roid era. Dude was shot from '93 to '96 and then became the greatest pitcher known to man the year he turned 35, all of a sudden.

Edited August 8, 2007 by sahyder1

[sahyder1]

anyone watching the press conference. ESPN/ESPN2 and MLB.com has it.

[SeanB]

Andro, was legal then. So by your logic, that's okay.

But I love the whole "there wasn't a rule against" bs. Except for the that whole, the Federal Government considers it illegal thing. But I guess the laws of Major League Baseball supercede the laws of the United States of America.

[The Sultan of Swank]

Well then the argument could also be made that had Babe played in the modern era where the fields are up to 150' smaller in dimensions then he would have hit far more home runs. There's a book called the year Babe hit 102 home runs, read it. It's a very interesting read.

Now, I respect Bonds and the Record, I don't like the steroid allegations and I think they're true, but you've gotta have power to hit the longball, they just extended his ability to as far as I'm concerned...

What irks me though... greatest record in pro sports or greatest baseball record. Saying either one of those lines as so many people already have on the TV screen is a slap in the face to both American Sports and Baseball. Yes, chicks dig the long ball, and it's certainly the most exciting record in pro-sports, I mean c'mon someone just splattered the ball 400 feet, that's exciting. But don't insult the game by saying its the greatest individual record. What about the all time wins record, that is an untouchable record, 511 wins, that's unthinkable. And yes Young played in the pre-modern era of baseball, but Walter Johnson played his career in the 20th century and he still hit 417. Yes the rotation has grown from 3 to 5 and there is a larger emphasis on relief pitching, but that is still a far greater record. What about strikeouts, that's probably the most obtainable pitching record and you'd still have to throw 5,800 k's. To put it into perspective, if you were to pitch 35 games a year, and pitch 7 innings a game for a 20 year career with no injuries, you still have to throw more than 1 strikeout per inning. That's a test of longevity and dominance as a player.

A greatest individual record in sports shouldn't be something so easily threatened. It's already accepted that A-Rod will in all likelyhood break the record. Look at Gretzky's 800-someodd goals, that's untouchable right now. That's a competitor for greatest individual record.

[ACCBiggz]

I'm not a fan of Cy Young's wins record for the reasons you mentioned. In today's era of offense it's why I respect Maddux and Glavine so much and think that Maddux's 93 & 94 years of a sub-2 ERA are some of the best seasons ever pitched. I respect Cy Young, but I have a different feeling about his pitching numbers than I do the pitchers of our era.

[GhostMachine]

Biggz (and others talking about pitching), one thing you have to remember is that in the old days, pitchers used to, or at least were expected to, play the entire game. Extra innings included. It IS hard to compare pitchers from different eras because relievers and closers didn't exist back then. Call me nuts, but I'd take Cy Young or Walter Johnson in their prime over Maddux or Glavine in their prime any day.

Andro wasn't illegal when McGwire broke the home run record. I was watching waiting for him to break the record and sitting patiently in front of my tv watching the game where he finally broke it and cheering along with millions of other fans. It wasn't really until he went before Congress and evaded questions about roid use that his image went down the toilet.

People have making excuses for Bonds saying that even if he did use performance enhancers that it doesn't matter because he was already a HoF caliber player. To that, I say BULLSHIT!!! Cheating is cheating, and quite frankly I think cheating by using roids, human growth hormone or anything that can't be tested for that we don't know about yet to improve your performance is just as bad, if not worse, than what the Black Sox did, because you're playing unfairly and interfering with the integrity of the game.

If he is clean and it can be proven, then Bonds should go in. If there's still any doubt, but no proof, he should go in but not on the first ballot or if the rules don't allow for kicking him out if its ever proven he did cheat. If its ever proven he did use performance enhancers, no way in Hell he should ever go in, under any circumstances.

I don't take Bonds' personality into account in making my decision, because there are plenty of jerks and assholes in the Hall already (Ty Cobb, for example), so what's one more?

Edited August 8, 2007 by GhostMachine

[Maxx]

Andro, was legal then. So by your logic, that's okay.

But I love the whole "there wasn't a rule against" bs. Except for the that whole, the Federal Government considers it illegal thing. But I guess the laws of Major League Baseball supercede the laws of the United States of America.

Since when did the Feds run Major League Baseball?

Anyways... if people are calling Barry a cheat and going on and on about his records being tainted, then how can anyone really have respected Babe Ruth's 714 home runs as a record? Seeing as he only played against whites, never facing a black/hispanic/asian etc. Those pre-integration numbers are weak and deserve an asterik next to them as well.

Edited August 8, 2007 by Maxx

[thuganomic]

Yeah, except he doesn't have to be PROVEN clean. He has to be PROVEN guilty. That's the way our judicial system works, and that's the way it works for baseball. As much as it sucks, if we start presuming guilt, then it's a very slippery slope.

And that just about wraps up how I feel about Bonds. Good for him that he broke the record, but if he gets proven to be a cheater and doing it through illegal methods, then no Hall of Fame for him, no record for him.....and so on and so forth.

[Vendetta]

I think this whole thing is because of the media. Had Bonds been a friendly guy and didn't treat the media the way he did, we wouldn't be having this argument.

[ACCBiggz]

Biggz (and others talking about pitching), one thing you have to remember is that in the old days, pitchers used to, or at least were expected to, play the entire game. Extra innings included. It IS hard to compare pitchers from different eras because relievers and closers didn't exist back then. Call me nuts, but I'd take Cy Young or Walter Johnson in their prime over Maddux or Glavine in their prime any day.

[TheSqauredCircleMessiah]

Game of Shawdows, read it.

[sahyder1]

The people who say "cheating is cheating".....what do you say to the fact that there are people who've admitted to cheating currently in the HOF?

[ACCBiggz]

Game of Shawdows, read it.

[Vendetta]

I still beleive Pete Rose should be in the HOF as a player. Not as a manger but as a player.

[Lowerdeck]

Wasn't he player-manager for a couple years in the 80s?

And the feds have some interest in MLB because MLB has an anti-trust exemption from Congress. Not like there's any chance in hell anyone can come close to challenging that successfully considering the system, but it's the principle.

[TheSqauredCircleMessiah]

Game of Shawdows, read it.

Yellow Journalism.

[MSC]

Wasn't he player-manager for a couple years in the 80s?

And the feds have some interest in MLB because MLB has an anti-trust exemption from Congress. Not like there's any chance in hell anyone can come close to challenging that successfully considering the system, but it's the principle.

[ACCBiggz]

Game of Shawdows, read it.

Yellow Journalism.