The MST3K Thread

[Josh]

Yeah, what I'm saying is that now when I watch the episode, that part won't be as big a surprise laugh for me because I know it's coming.

You may or may not. There's absolutely nothing to indicate it's about to happen.

Plus, there's more for a wrestling-crossover audience to watch for in there.

[KONGO]

In the Cheating short before the Wild World of Batwoman, I paused it and figured out the factoring problem. I haven't done factoring in at least six years.

[Josh]

Background shit like that often draws me in.

[Skummy]

I don't want to use the term jumped the shark, because to me the show never did that. But it did go downhill a bit when Trace left.

As for Joel and Mike, I don't have a preference. I like both, but did miss the invention exchange after Joel left and they realized there was no reason for Mike to be doing it since he wasn't an inventor.

It's less to do with Mike not being an inventor and more to do with Joel being a prop comic; a lot of the invention exchange stuff grew out of bits of his old stand-up routine (which is worth checking out, its hilarious).

I prefer Joel in general, as he's a lot more laid back, his references tend to be a little bit more obscure and his comedy wackier and less sophomoric, and the show generally feels a lot more "real" with him. I like the more parental relationship he has with the robots too - covering their eyes when there's nudity on-screen, for example, while Mike is a lot more of an equal to the robots, and they bully him way more than they ever would Joel. Joel does a lot more sight gags with the silhouettes, too, which I always like.

I think when Joel left the show lost a lot of its more ramshackle home-made quality, and started to feel a lot more like a scripted comedy show. But as it started to lean more towards having an actual story arc, Mike's style lent itself to the change in format a lot more than Joel's would have done. The quality of the movies themselves is a lot more consistent after Mike took over too - some of the movies Joel had were really hard work to get through, and Mike never really had a Manos. The show by that point becoming more scripted and structured means that there's a higher proportion of running jokes in the riffs and whatnot, too, which is a definite plus.

It's easy to forget, when we're talking about how quickly Mike grew into the role and everything, that Mike wasn't new to the show; he'd been appearing in supporting roles for years, and had been the head writer, so it's not like he was a complete newcomer.

As for when the show went downhill, I rarely find the host segments post-Frank and Dr. Forrester watchable, let alone funny. I'm not a fan of Pearl at all. The riffing was consistently great right til the end, though.

I'm always sad that Joel's cameo in the last season wasn't more substantial, though. Even just a couple of minutes of Joel and Mike together in the theatre would be fantastic - and I'm really hoping we get some kind of Rifftrax/Cinematic Titanic crossover just to get those two together, though even then, it wouldn't be as fun as it could have been with the dynamic of their characters in MST3K.

[Hobo]

It's worth remembering that when Frank Coniff left they lost the guy who screened a lot of the films for years. Then Sci Fi dictated the kinds of films they had to do.

I like all the MST crews. I've not seen as much of J. Elvis Weinstein but he was funny too from what I have seen,

[Skummy]

To be fair, I think the stuff dictated by Sci-Fi, while taking some of the control away from the crew (again, moving away from the "homemade" qualities of the Joel years) was pretty good - maybe it's just my personal tastes, but cheesy science fiction is one of the easier things to mock.

As much as I love episodes like Manos, there's a lot of earlier episodes where the movies are awful because absolutely nothing happens, and that puts a lot of pressure on the riffers, and the films can still be a struggle to get through. At least in the Sci-Fi days, it's movies that - while terrible - are actually watchable.

I've not seen much of Weinstein, because I tend to just pick episodes at random rather than watching in chronological order, and I've not seen that much of the earlier stuff. He seems good as the other Mad, but TV's Frank was just so perfect. And because he only did the two seasons (and that's only if you count KTMA), I can't really see him as a good Tom Servo compared to Kevin Murphy, who was just superb.

[thatshortguy]

Yeah, Josh got boned simply because the two people who followed him were seemingly perfect for their particular roles. That's why it was so great to see him as part of the Cinematic Titanic cast, where he can more easily showcase his wit (which he has plenty of. The man's fast on his feet from his time as an improv comic.)

[Skummy]

The problem with Cinematic Titanic is that it's just too cluttered. There's glimpses of genius, but it's too many people to keep track of at one time, and with the exception of Trace and Frank, they don't get enough scope to get their personalities across the way they could if there were less of them. It's a shame, because I like the MST3K-esque idea of CT existing within a narrative rather than Rifftrax just being three guys cracking jokes, but in practice Rifftrax tends to be funnier.

[thatshortguy]

I won't disagree with that, but I suspect CT has become more an occasional thing and more based on the live show as opposed to the DVD. Meanwhile, Rifftrax is going a different direction with newer movies and focusing on recordings.

[Skummy]

Yeah, CT definitely doesn't have anything like the output of Rifftrax - which could be down to logistics and production costs just as much as it is the focus on the live show.

When I first discovered the two, I leaned more towards Cinematic Titanic because it felt more like MST3K, with the focus on shlocky public domain B-movies, whilst riffing on known movies has always seemed a bit cheap to me. I have no interest, really, in hearing Mike Nelson crack jokes about Twilight, because everyone's already done it. Half the fun is in how ridiculous the source material is in the first place.

Now, though, I've really warmed to Rifftrax, especially after watching the entire Star Wars series. Their Batman & Robin is superb too. And because my girlfriend has been half-jokingly trying to get me to watch the Harry Potter movies (mostly just to stop me from insisting that the plot of the one I've seen is "Gary Oldman tries to steal all the magic, and there's a werewolf"), we're going to watch those next.

But still, they're at their best when dealing with cheap, weird movies. Frankenstein Island, Laser Mission and especially Buffalo Rider are far and away the best they've done, and wouldn't be out of place in any series of MST3K. Though they do tend to throw in a little too much internet meme-based humour, which is always a bit of a turn-off for me, especially coming from established comedy writers who are old enough to know better, but I guess that's their audience.

I've not seen any of the Cinematic Titanic live stuff, though, so I'm not sure how well it translates to a live show.

[Josh]

To be fair, I think the stuff dictated by Sci-Fi, while taking some of the control away from the crew (again, moving away from the "homemade" qualities of the Joel years) was pretty good - maybe it's just my personal tastes, but cheesy science fiction is one of the easier things to mock.

As much as I love episodes like Manos, there's a lot of earlier episodes where the movies are awful because absolutely nothing happens, and that puts a lot of pressure on the riffers, and the films can still be a struggle to get through. At least in the Sci-Fi days, it's movies that - while terrible - are actually watchable.

The SciFi Channel influence was actually not a lasting thing and the show improved when it wore off. I have a hard time watching most of the first half of Season 8 because of the constant dreary sameness those movies have. The Brains finally found a way to make it work somewhere around The Giant Spider Invasion and by Season 10 there were pretty much no restrictions on what movies could be used.

I've not seen any of the Cinematic Titanic live stuff, though, so I'm not sure how well it translates to a live show.

I've not seen many of the live show DVDs, but the ones I have seen (Alien Factor, East Meets Watts) indicate that it was a very, very smart move. You owe it to yourself to watch at least a couple of them.

[Josh]

I had a dream last night that I was at some sort of MST3K/Cinematic Titanic/Rifftrax sort of event (based on the people I remember, it was probably Cinematic Titanic.) The only part I vividly remember was talking to Mary Jo Pehl. I was telling her how much I love MST3K and CT, yadda yadda yadda, and I ended up sticking my foot in my mouth by telling her I only watch the stuff that's on YouTube and Google Videos.

[KONGO]

At least it was just Mary Jo Pehl. You can try again in your next dream when you meet Kevin Murphy.

[Josh]

True. When he expresses his disappointment, it will be in a beautiful Irish tenor.

[Josh]

There's some cool tidbits in this interview with the developer of the new Manos game.

[Josh]

The A.V. Club has an article up that names 10 Essential MST3K Episodes.

They've already done a "gateway episodes" feature (which is linked to in this one), so the intent's a little different here. A few of these are surprising picks, in my view, but I totally get why they're there.

[Hobo]

I'm going side hacking right now!

[apsham]

I absolutely can not approve of a list that doesn't try to mention Final Sacrifice.

[Sousa]

Final Sacrifice was on their "gateway" list mentioned here, which is also where Space Mutiny gets its inevitable shout.

[Josh]

Yeah, as they mentioned, the 10 Essential Episodes are meant to use the Gateway Episodes they listed as a jumping off point. I'd say all of them together are a pretty good cross-section of the series.