Is there a need for a new, more simple wrestling sim?

[METALMAN]

It just seems odd to me, and as I said, I've never seen it in any other franchise, that people are saying "we want this game, but with more features! But not too many more features, let's not get carried away".

Just because something is a new feature doesn't always mean it is a good thing. Adding new features for the sake of it can often lead to nothing about tedious micromanagement. Yes, TEW has been streamlined a fair old bit but there are still a few fiddly bits and its perfectly reasonable that that approach might be less appealing to some people.

Obviously new features are generally a good thing, and TEW does a tremendous job of including such a vast array of different features that influence gameplay in so many different ways, but that always brings up the matter of micromanagement.

One way of addressing this that I think would be particularly good - and Benji touched upon it earlier - would be to do what Football Manager does - allowing you to delegate various matters to your staff, and allowing the player to focus upon the areas they enjoy most.

I wouldn't say complexity is the issue for TEW - it's fairly straightforward and easy to grasp. But there is a fair bit of micromanagement.

I've said micromanagement too much.

[apsham]

Ultimately, I think for most people complaining about TEW, it comes down to two things - familiarity with EWR, and the fact that they have to pay for it. "Complexity" seems to be a catch-all explanation that doesn't actually make much sense under scrutiny, to me.

One other thing - the fact that there aren't real world wrestlers out of the box. Most of the people who I've seen complain about TEW (the ones who have actually played any of the recent versions rather than complaining about it as if the franchise hasn't changed in the last ten years) are complaining about things that are only present in present day real world mods, as if it's the game's fault that the mods are poorly made. The Cornellverse, as you've pointed out, is tailored to provide a balanced experience and take advantage of the game's features, but people just skip right over it in favour of mods thrown together with no real understanding of how the game's engine works.

But yeah, I do think 'complexity' is just an excuse by people who were put off by the early games. The idea that someone could enjoy Football Manager 2013 but think TEW 2013 is too complicated is baffling to me.

I don't want to look like I'm arguing against TEW - but this bugs me at the same time.

A simulation game at its base (most of the time) is about as appealing as the content within it. The Cornellverse is just not going to appeal to a huge number of people - hence the real world mods. And if people are having problems creating them, then I'd say that says something about the complexity of the system itself - although there are some excellent ones out there. My biggest issue with TEW came down to micromanagement plain and simple. TEW 2013 is excellent because while some of those elements are still there - there are options to turn them off and then also, there are guides that lead you through a few of the more elaborate concepts at the same time. It's for sure a step in the right direction.

But at the same time, even with all of that added in - it's just not the same thing that's being discussed in the thread. That in conjunction with The Truth's mention that "new feature" != "good feature". I think it's safe to say that someone who couldn't enjoy Football Manager couldn't enjoy TEW - but who are we talking about in that regard?

[OctoberRaven]

If anything, TEW is simpler for me than EWR was. Yes, there is a learning curve. But EWR had a learning curve too.

[OctoberRaven]

I wouldn't say complexity is the issue for TEW - it's fairly straightforward and easy to grasp. But there is a fair bit of micromanagement.

Yeah, having to change production value rates, advertising rates, signing deals with sponsorships... so much micromanagement. And you have to change your show dates every year if you want them to fall on the same weekday, and you can only do that in the first of the month, how lame is that? Plus, hiring so much staff... writers, medics, production crew....

Oh wait, hold on- That's EWR.

[METALMAN]

Do go ahead and drop the dreadful sarcasm. At no point did I even compare TEW to EWR, you colossal torque wrench.

[Tits McGee]

I am looking for something more simple than EWR.

[TKz]

I wouldn't say complexity is the issue for TEW - it's fairly straightforward and easy to grasp. But there is a fair bit of micromanagement.

Yeah, having to change production value rates, advertising rates, signing deals with sponsorships... so much micromanagement. And you have to change your show dates every year if you want them to fall on the same weekday, and you can only do that in the first of the month, how lame is that? Plus, hiring so much staff... writers, medics, production crew....

Oh wait, hold on- That's EWR.

I don't think I've ever touched the first two, or ever bothered hiring staff. Sponsorship's take 2 seconds.

Compare that to TEW and having to pick a venue and all that stuff. There's definitely more micromanagement in TEW.

Ultimately, for me, I've always preferred EWR because I can pick it up and finish a show in a few minutes if I know what I'm booking. It always feels like it takes so long to play TEW. Which is a shame, because there's a lot to like about it, but the simplicity of EWR will always win out for me.

[=BK=]

I got to the point in TEW 05 where I could book a card as fast I could in EWR but I have to pay more attention to do that. I find I can't listen to podcasts while I play like I could with EWR because I have to focus more on the game. I have to worry about agents, I have to worry about who refs, I have to sit and think about what notes I need for every match.

[OctoberRaven]

I wouldn't say complexity is the issue for TEW - it's fairly straightforward and easy to grasp. But there is a fair bit of micromanagement.

Yeah, having to change production value rates, advertising rates, signing deals with sponsorships... so much micromanagement. And you have to change your show dates every year if you want them to fall on the same weekday, and you can only do that in the first of the month, how lame is that? Plus, hiring so much staff... writers, medics, production crew....

Oh wait, hold on- That's EWR.

I don't think I've ever touched the first two, or ever bothered hiring staff. Sponsorship's take 2 seconds.

Well, if you start with WWE or another you don't have to do production values or advertising rates, and only resign staff long term. But in TEW, you don't have to for ANY company.

Also, venues take two seconds.

And as far as "too long" goes, it takes me about a tenth of the time to book a show in TEW than it does in EWR on average.

It's comparing walking up the stairs of the Empire State Building to taking an elevator. The elevator may require more button presses, but it's still simpler and easier.

[apsham]

I don't see in the least how it could take ANYONE a smaller amount of time to book a show in TEW compared to EWR. That just makes absolutely no sense to me.

[OctoberRaven]

I don't see in the least how it could take ANYONE a smaller amount of time to book a show in TEW compared to EWR. That just makes absolutely no sense to me.

Well, for one, in the most recent TEW games you can filter the match making screen to have workers not already booked in matches.

Also, I book backwards.

[apsham]

I suppose I look at it from the perspective of someone who prepares shows with notes beforehand, perhaps that's where the difference comes in?

I also use the keyboard and TAB method to easily navigate through the menus in EWR when I'm booking. Makes me able to just blaze through the shows without having to tell the road agents what I want the match to be like, select a length to the match, try to balance the product to make sure that it's going to appeal to the crowd that the show is in front of, etc.

[OctoberRaven]

I suppose I look at it from the perspective of someone who prepares shows with notes beforehand, perhaps that's where the difference comes in?

'

Actually, I've done shows like that too, still faster in TEW.

[thewrestlingkid]

i think if done the right way a more... modern style game like EWR could work

[PhilParentRXPW]

I didn't expect the topic to have strong arguments like this! And civilized too, plus I learned that calling someone a torque wrench was an insult! I always saw them as tools... which I guess is the point.

TEW 2013 is not that complicated when you consider sims in the genre. I've played the demo to OOTP Baseball 14 and that's absolutely OVERWHELMING. It's an amazing game, though the database is humongous and very detailed, and with all the stuff that's in it, I wonder how much their freakin' licensing cost!

Like I said, I have no problem with TEW 2013 per say, I paid for it, I play it, I made a mod for it. But I guess I want another wrestling computer game experience. That Wrestling Manager thing looks good, but I only have an iPod, and I can't seriously see myself playing a sim on a screen that small. But it looks GREAT, those card graphics are real nice! Those who played this, I'm guessing the gameplay is a lot of drag & drop?

Edited September 15, 2013 by PhilParentRXPW

[Lint]

You woke up Da Ryland!

Also, this thread reminded me that Jukeboxhero existed. Thanks for that.

And now playa, I'm gonna put, and a partner of your choosing, in a two-on-one handicap match again...Da Ryland!

But now, yea, I had briefly tried one of the older versions of TEW. Even downloaded that one whenit became freeware. I wasn't thrilled with it, for reasons stated..seemed too complex. If TEW13 is more streamlined..well, I guess I'll give it a shot. Theres a demo right?

[brenchill]

Add me to the list of EWR fans who were left completely alienated by the TEW games.

TEW is just hard work.

[Rich]

I didn't expect the topic to have strong arguments like this! And civilized too, plus I learned that calling someone a torque wrench was an insult! I always saw them as tools... which I guess is the point.

This is the way things kind of go these days, we aren't quite as petulant and childish as we used to be

[SeanDMan]

I don't see in the least how it could take ANYONE a smaller amount of time to book a show in TEW compared to EWR. That just makes absolutely no sense to me.

In the latest TEWs you actually have to go through about 3 or 4 less steps, when you factor in Winner - > Wins By -> Interference -> Post Match Result -> Post Match Interference -> Purpose of Match, which are all optional road agent notes in TEW but mandatory drop down menus in EWR.

[Skummy]

Again, it sounds like a lot of you complaining about TEW haven't played '13, or else are unfamiliar with it. Because most of what you're suggesting, or complaining about as "micro-management" just isn't an issue.

Picking a venue takes too long? TEW '13 does it automatically, by default. Same thing goes for selecting a referee, a road agent, anything like that. The game does it for you.

Mods are unbalanced because the game is "too complex"? The editor allows you to choose pre-set templates for the majority of editable content, which are specifically designed to work within the game's dynamic. The idea that TEW is at fault for allowing people to make shoddy stats updates doesn't make sense; no more than suggesting EWR is a bad game because some guy gave AJ Styles 99 for Tech in a 2001 mod.

Like ORO said, there's more fiddly and pointless bits in EWR - picking sponsors, production and medical staff (both removed entirely by TEW '13 as they're just not relevant), advertising, changing dates of shows, production values, all that stuff. And all of it having much less of an impact on the game as a whole than any of the "micromanagement" you have to do in TEW. And, yeah, the "purpose of match" drop down in EWR.

I don't even really see what comes under the category of "micromanagement". Outside of the stuff that the game does automatically, what is there that you have to do that's any more difficult than EWR was?

I also use the keyboard and TAB method to easily navigate through the menus in EWR when I'm booking. Makes me able to just blaze through the shows without having to tell the road agents what I want the match to be like, select a length to the match, try to balance the product to make sure that it's going to appeal to the crowd that the show is in front of, etc.

Again, you don't have to tell the road agents what you want the match to be like in TEW, but you do in EWR. It's an option in TEW, it's mandatory in EWR. How is this a downside to TEW? Selecting a length to the match, fair enough if you think that's a negative, to me it seems far better to have segments entered by time rather than being allowed an arbitrary number per show. If that means it takes longer, then so be it. That's the game, why complain about having to spend longer playing it?

And balancing the product...again, if you're playing the game properly, that sorts itself out. I've never once worried about that. If I'm playing as WWE, I book like WWE. If I'm playing as ROH, I book like ROH. Things like the "match danger" and "match intensity" sliders, for example, are by default set to match your product's definition, but can be altered if you choose to.

I just don't see the logic in complaining about features which are either entirely optional, or which the game handles more or less by itself, but which make the game infinitely more compelling and interesting to play, rather than EWR which - when you get down to it - is number-crunching.