TEW13 Real World Update: March 2015

[Marsl]

I think the game would feel more authentic with attributes level in 5 steps, not 10 steps.

I agree that the 90s should be reserved for the best of the best, but a lot of the international talents (nakamura, tanahashi) belongs there as well.

If you like, I would try my best to make such a list for the european talent in the data.

Also, the personalities are a problem we NEED to tackle asap!

I agree also on using stages of 5, however when you are editing thousands of workers with stats all over the place I was working on a simplier out of 10 scale then adding the zero on the end.

As for the personalities I do agree, however before the current set up (where they are set as Normal Wrestlers as default), I was having them set as Company Man as default which gave every promotion a 100% backstage attitude, even for little indies. Due to the sliders I tend to stick to the templates just to make it easier although do change the libral setting for the death match guys.

How would you suggest we deal with the situation for now? I'm eager to help.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Marsl

[TheWho87]

In regard to the personalities, well I dont want to blanket change everyone all over again, the best thing might be to point out some guys to change, here is a guide to how the personality templates come across in game. I have obviously omitted Balanced since it is the middle for every category.

Class Act (Positive)

- Compassionate

- Dependable

- Driven

- Humble

- Loyal

- Optimistic

- Social

Class Act (Positive)

- Dependable

- Extremely Loyal

- Social

Egomaniac Star (Extremly Negative)

- Bold

- Dependable

- Extremely Driven

- Extremely Egotistical

- Extremely Manipulative

- Mercenary

- Ruthless

- Selfish

Free Spirit (Positive)

- Compassionate

- Extremely Flaky

- Extremely Liberal

- Extremely Social

- Hesitant

- Humble

- Loyal

- Naive

- Optimistic

Grizzled Veteran

- Antisocial

- Conservative

- Dependable

- Pessimistic

Jerk (Very Negative)

- Bold

- Driven

- Egotistical

- Manipulative

- Mercenary

- Ruthless

- Selfish

Master Politician

- Driven

- Egotistical

- Extremely Dependable

- Extremely Manipulative

- Ruthless

- Selfish

- Social

Normal

- Bold

- Egotistical

- Mercenary

- Ruthless

- Selfish

- Social

Party Animal (Positive)

- Bold

- Extremely Social

- Flaky

- Hesitant

- Liberal

- Optimistic

Rookie (Positive)

- Compassionate

- Dependable

- Extremely Naive

- Generous

- Hesitant

- Humble

- Loyal

- Optimistic

- Social

- Timid

[Marsl]

I don't know right now how it is with mass edit. Can you mass edit the personality of certain wrestlers, so that it would be a wise strategy to collect all workers with a certain personality?

[TheWho87]

You cant mass edit personalities you have to go into each profile and set it.

[rdylanm01]

Matt Bloom (Jason Alberts) is now interim head trainer for the PC. WWE confirmed a couple days ago that Bill Demott is no longer with WWE in any way, shape, or form.

[SirMichaelJordan]

The example you use of "60 is not good" is based on your own comment -

fact to have a attribute to be considered "good" (according to filters) you only need a 66/C+ minumin

Think about what YOU are saying, then maybe, just maybe, you will understand what is being said to you.

Your own post kind of proves my point anyway, Robbie E is 31, the post in question was made in late 2013 when he would have just turned 30. Hardly a veteran of the old days but with "pretty good psychology". It is not therefore out of his own advice to put some of the better workers on a borderline position, something like 60 seems reasonable enough within the realms of the game for someone who is one of the top workers as far as basics and in ring ability but still has a lot to learn about this element of things. It's where the guidance of those Road Agents brings them up. They're fairly stand out in large elements but lacking that something. Since we're using Cole as an example - he's a young worker who after 8 years has worked all over the world and is widely regarded as one of the best despite his young years. He's worked with some great people both in the ring and behind the scenes and is bound to have absorbed things from them, I'm sure you'll say Liger is shit but I'd trust in and around his matches with Cole they communicated at some point. In the note here, he says he'd give Christopher Daniels an 80, who has Cole been doing programs against for RoH on and off?

I'm only arguing the merits of one person here, because it's the example you bought forward, I don't know every single person in the world and you're going to be exactly the same. For that reason though I'm arguing against your blanket change, I think as a general rule of thumb the fairly conservative estimates given by TheWho in most stats helps some form of balance which creates a relatively accurate picture. It won't be perfect and people will haggle over details on it but it's not a bad reflection people are roughly where they should be for the most part. My personal opinion is that Jimmy Havoc could do with a boost, although he's not particularly mainstream I think he's charismatic - he only seems to need to look at people for them to want to dismember him - and is brilliant at telling a story in the ring - his recent Progress match against Will Ospreay is one of my favourite matches which told a compelling story I've seen for a few years - but someone else may think entirely the opposite.

Thats relative to a big company.

A 60 in a small company is not the same as a 60 in a big company...There are many bonuses that the game give for stats and some of the stats like phycology are relative to the segment grade when considering bonuses/penalties. Small companies aren't getting grades in the 80's like a WWE...

A 66 in a National level company is good while a 66 in a Small level company is excellent.

Works the same as having a E- company pulling out a E+ show grade, thats a great grade for that company but a terrible grade for someone much bigger.

I think thats the disconnect here.

Also, saying that Robbie E has a good rating in phycology stat doesn't mean he's getting a 70 or even a 80....First off all you'll notice the OP mention that he assume he had help from the bookers meaning that he do not believe Robbie was calling the match and second of all TNA is not that big of a company so a 60 would be a serviceable rating. Booby Roode was only a 70 in his eyes...

You'll notice not much if any all the top full time active wrestlers broke the 80's in his example. He gave veteran guys who were great in this area 100. 100/80 is pretty much the same gap of 90/70.

Whether there's a raise in veterans from the old school or a decrease in the new crop of worker, the original point was there needs to be a bigger gap between the two especially since the development area in the game has been patched since release.

There is no sliding scale of psychology, every wrestler in the game is rated on the same 0-100 method so the size of the company is not REALLY a relative factor in things like psychology, Word of God has already explained that psychology effects don't really change from point to point and you'll be raised/dinged in the same way regardless of company size. If we take that 60 is slightly above average, the top independent wrestlers of the world can comfortably tell a decent/good story in a match and that would be covered by a 60. What will happen is that they will ultimately peter out at a lower peak without the guidance of the right people and that's right and realisitic. Most wrestlers improve and learn more by working more matches, including of course some with more experienced workers and working in different areas.

Who said Robbie E was a 70 or 80? What he said was that he must be pretty good, that would probably put him in at around 60 but it's hard to tell as he doesn't have many top row skills which is relatively understandable on the basis that the WWE head trainer until this week was someone who was never more than a midcard jobber to the stars, the replacement not reaching a much higher level. He probably has the help of an Agent (which 90% of matches in the world don't) but there's a reason TNA stuck a green Jessie and at times reckless Zema Ion with Robbie E, he plays the role of the vet and they're there to learn more from him.

Honestly though, if you're going to use exactly what Derek B was saying regarding those things you're getting nowhere. While it's a good general guide when he gives examples of skills it is entirely his own opinion piece. He rationalises why HE would put people at a certain figure but it is easily debatable as a lot of these things are. A blanket rise on Vet A because he's old, or a blanket drop on Seasoned Hand B because he's younger on an age plucked out of someones arse still makes no sense. What makes sense, and is right, is that not everybody will necessarily become a 100% psychological mastermind and less will do it without the right guidance but the people who can do that will vary. They may have a decent base but it's down to how they're handled if they're going to make the next big step up. Treat Adam Cole with his slightly above average psychology as the big vet and he won't get much farther, put him in the ring with more experienced opponents and he will get better. It's fairly straight forward and the mod generally represents that and ultimately it's small fry haggling over people we like and don't like.

This will be my last post on this as I don't want to make this a long thread about one stat.

You're right, "technically" the rating is not relative to a company's size but the way the game works, the higher the match grade the higher the worker's psychology needs to be.

So since a indy company shouldn't be putting on 70's & 80's rated matches a psychology rating around 50 is more than enough to avoid penalties and is considered a good rating when main eventing at a small company vs someone main eventing WWE. Heck, it may be good enough for a WWE undercard where Indy guys will be starting at once on the main roster. (and built up from there) as mention before, you only need a 66 to use call in ring without penalties at a small company's main event (you cant at a big company since the segment grade should rate well beyond a 66)

In a nutshell, segment length and quality determines how high psychology needs to be presented in a match (it uses the worker with the highest psychology rating and it needs to be a certain % of the match grade)

At this point we are really arguing two different points. I don't really care where Adam Cole is set at, I'm not arguing that he should be a 50 instead of a 60 but rather the gap between legends and current talent needs to be bigger. My suggestion was to make the gap wider by reducing full time active wrestlers by 10 while making the case that its ok to lower guys in this stat without hurting things. Maybe raising legends by 10 and making guys like Taker a 100 is a better way to widen the gap. But my original point wasn't about individual workers...

DerekB worked on the game (tester) and the CVerse (expanded) so his opinion is valuable when it comes to modding. I don't care where he rates a certain guy because ratings are subjective but what's important is how he rates. It doesn't matter if he thinks Bryan is a 85 in psychology and Cena is a 84 what does matter is that someone like Taker, Hogan and other legends are rated much higher than the current wrestlers. Its not because he say it should be that way, its because its what its actually like in real life. Anyone who've been around will tell you guys from 20-30 years ago were better at telling a story in ring than the current stars of today. For one, guys weren't doing 1001 moves and had to tell a story with the basic moves they had.

Edited March 9, 2015 by SirMichaelJordan

[Skummy]

Just because someone is a "legend" or has been around longer doesn't automatically mean that they're going to be better at psychology, though. There were plenty of people back in the '80s and '90s who wouldn't be considered to have "good" psychology by any standard. It's dependent on the promotion too - I'm not talking about the size of the company, but the product - in ROH or PWG, for example, you can get away with a much more move-heavy style because that's what their product is tailored towards, but it's not necessarily an indication that the people involved were worse at story-telling than anyone else, it's just what's expected of them in that situation.

The Ultimate Warrior and Sid Vicious both fit your timeline of "guys wrestling 20-30 years ago were better at Psychology", but I don't really think anyone would ever claim either was a master of the art.

If you go back and watch ECW shows from the mid-90s, there are guys hitting Powerbombs in the first two minutes of the match and the opponent kicking out on one. If that happened on an indie show today, I'm sure people would criticise it for the lack of psychology and demand that the culprit's stats be lowered accordingly - but when it's guys like Chris Candido, Lance Storm or Taz, do you really believe the likes of those three couldn't "tell a story"? Or is it more likely that they were having a specific type of match because of the expectations placed on them by the promotion, the time period, and the audience? It's really not as cut and dry as "older guys are better at psychology".

Similarly, if you watch much Lucha Libre, the "psychology" by US standards is all over the place. The match might open with the False Finishes (which you can swap out for "Comeback" in the Shine-Heat-Comeback-Finish routine), and you might not get a Shine until the closing couple of minutes. They might not sell for a long string of moves, or might get beaten down for twenty minutes only to start busting out somersaults to the floor. Does that mean that every Luchadore in the game should have their Psychology stat lowered because it doesn't fit your narrow view of what Psychology entails.

If it's about whether you're a veteran, or whether you're an "indie guy" - did CM Punk become better at Psychology overnight when he signed with WWE? Or was he always that good? The Shield were praised, early on, for their grasp of psychology in matches and in their beatdown angles - but all three guys were relative newcomers by your terms, and all under 30. Are they arbitrarily worse at Psychology than, say, Jerry Sags or Ron Reis? I mean, those guys have been doing it longer, they're the veterans, so by your logic they'd be better at it?

There are plenty of guys on the independent scene with a masterful grasp of psychology - but you seem to be interpreting psychology along very narrow lines. While one of the biggest criticisms of the independent scene is that many indie wrestlers are more focused on hitting as many moves as possible in one match rather than telling a story, that's simply not true of all independent wrestlers, and you seem to have jumped to the conclusion that the more moves there are in a match, that automatically means the psychology is worse, and that isn't the case.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Just because someone is a "legend" or has been around longer doesn't automatically mean that they're going to be better at psychology, though. There were plenty of people back in the '80s and '90s who wouldn't be considered to have "good" psychology by any standard. It's dependent on the promotion too - I'm not talking about the size of the company, but the product - in ROH or PWG, for example, you can get away with a much more move-heavy style because that's what their product is tailored towards, but it's not necessarily an indication that the people involved were worse at story-telling than anyone else, it's just what's expected of them in that situation.

The Ultimate Warrior and Sid Vicious both fit your timeline of "guys wrestling 20-30 years ago were better at Psychology", but I don't really think anyone would ever claim either was a master of the art.

If you go back and watch ECW shows from the mid-90s, there are guys hitting Powerbombs in the first two minutes of the match and the opponent kicking out on one. If that happened on an indie show today, I'm sure people would criticise it for the lack of psychology and demand that the culprit's stats be lowered accordingly - but when it's guys like Chris Candido, Lance Storm or Taz, do you really believe the likes of those three couldn't "tell a story"? Or is it more likely that they were having a specific type of match because of the expectations placed on them by the promotion, the time period, and the audience? It's really not as cut and dry as "older guys are better at psychology".

Similarly, if you watch much Lucha Libre, the "psychology" by US standards is all over the place. The match might open with the False Finishes (which you can swap out for "Comeback" in the Shine-Heat-Comeback-Finish routine), and you might not get a Shine until the closing couple of minutes. They might not sell for a long string of moves, or might get beaten down for twenty minutes only to start busting out somersaults to the floor. Does that mean that every Luchadore in the game should have their Psychology stat lowered because it doesn't fit your narrow view of what Psychology entails.

If it's about whether you're a veteran, or whether you're an "indie guy" - did CM Punk become better at Psychology overnight when he signed with WWE? Or was he always that good? The Shield were praised, early on, for their grasp of psychology in matches and in their beatdown angles - but all three guys were relative newcomers by your terms, and all under 30. Are they arbitrarily worse at Psychology than, say, Jerry Sags or Ron Reis? I mean, those guys have been doing it longer, they're the veterans, so by your logic they'd be better at it?

There are plenty of guys on the independent scene with a masterful grasp of psychology - but you seem to be interpreting psychology along very narrow lines. While one of the biggest criticisms of the independent scene is that many indie wrestlers are more focused on hitting as many moves as possible in one match rather than telling a story, that's simply not true of all independent wrestlers, and you seem to have jumped to the conclusion that the more moves there are in a match, that automatically means the psychology is worse, and that isn't the case.

I am not sure where you got this idea but I never said EVERY guy from 20-30 years ago where better at in ring story telling than today's wrestlers nor did I suggest that all old school wrestlers should be rated higher than every modern wrestler...That is where you are getting at with your rant. I am sure there are old school wrestlers that are poorly rated at psychology in the mod and besides that, I am not talking about how Random Joe Texas from the 80's should be better than Indy guy #2 because he was from a era...again, I'm sure there are tons of old guys in the mod with poor psychology.

I did say that one era were more advance at the art of psychology then the other but that doesn't mean Ultimate Warrior should be rated much higher than Adam Cole...So I am not understanding where you are coming from with that.

I am talking about a gap between the upper echelon psychology master from the old school (Taker, Flair, Hogan, etc) vs the upper echelon of today and not Sid Vicious or someone who sucked in that area to fit your narrative. Besides, Im sure Sid has better in ring story telling than some random Indie guy so I am not seeing your point there either. Fact is, Sid worked live matches on TV for both big companies, I don't see how indy wrestler #24500 is so much better with less experience. They both might suck but I am sure the vet sucks a little less...

A company tailored to be a spot fest or not is irrelevant as psychology is all about knowing when to or not to perform a spot, how to use the many moves in your arsenal its about drawing emotion from the crowd with great timing and in a sense "telling a story" ...So if a power bomb to start the match make sense then I don't see how anything is wrong with that because there's a difference between pulling off as many crowd pleasing moves as possible vs doing a lot of moves that make sense for the match. Maybe the guy delivering the power moves so early is trying to take advantage of a smaller and weaker opponent...

ECW was known for being over booked so I don't see your point in saying "Indies get criticized for doing the same thing" the people you named were known for being able to tell a story and Jerry Lynn (not mentioned but was the best in the company at psychology) was great at telling a story, its not a coincidence that RVD's best matches were against this guy. He made RVD's move sets and spot make sense instead of being all over the placed.

And what you just wrote in your Luche Libre example is telling a story and in fact, thats their bread and butter...Its not how a WWE match would go but its a sense of drama involved in there and there is a story being told. Ring Psychology is not only rest spots, working on a limb or body part to set up a finisher...Good Psychology is like having the ability to put all of your cool ideas (moves and spots) into a good movie script instead of a poorly written script like all the SAW moves after SAW 1. Those movies have all of the cool ideas but they were all over the place and most of the cool kills didn't make any sense.

Also, CM Punk was with WWE for nearly 10 years, you don't think he got better at in ring story telling? Beside, you also miss the point as I never said veterans only deserve a high rating in that area...

Edited March 10, 2015 by SirMichaelJordan

[jollyjoker]

this mod is kind of random, everyone's momentum is high, most of the wrestler got bad gimmicks, 42 for Daniel Bryan's undedog gimmick?

[lanky316]

did CM Punk become better at Psychology overnight when he signed with WWE? Or was he always that good?

"Just because he had a couple of 5* matches doesn't mean he actually knew what he was doing!1!"

On that note though - and not strictly relevant to the psychology - I think the mod does a pretty good job of not being too WWEcentric. Very few of us actually have time to watch loads of videos of thousands of wrestlers and then decide on a rating between 1 and 10 (or 20 if working in 5's. I know it's 100 but the difference between 59 and 61 isn't worth a huge debate) but while I think some people could do with tweaking as a general picture people aren't too far out from reality.

Now, back to Southside briefly while I try and help out with the tweaks and improved bios -

Will Ospreay

Bio -

"Will Ospreay is known as "The Aerial Assassin" and is getting an increasing reputation as one of the most exciting high flyers on the British scene today. Broke on to the scene and built his reputation on his tag team work with Paul Robinson in "The Swords of Essex" where they found themselves winning the RPW British Tag Team titles holding them for nearly a year. As an individual he has been growing a reputation throughout the scene and has found himself performing for WXW in Germany and in high profile matches against imports. With solo cruiserweight reigns in RPW and SWE and a high profile feud for the Progress title against Jimmy Havoc, he enjoys a growing reputation and this Kent native's exciting matches make him one to watch for the future"

Works in - Add Europe

Moveset - 630 Splash

Style - Spot Monkey perhaps? Cruiser seems reasonable enough though as he is getting better at the all round thing so up to a consensus I guess.

Stat changes -

Flashiness - 80 - Linked in with the spot monkey reputation he has built up. The mod guide highlights "more style than substance" and I think that's a fair analysis of Will.

Star Quality (as this is the next step you're looking at I'll try and help here) - probably around 55, maybe higher.

Sex Appeal - going by the mod guide I'd probably go around 40.

Rest seems okay to me

Tyler Bate

Bio - "He's got a stupid moustache and he looks stupid and he is stupid", or "a fantastic man-child of a wrestler" depending on who you ask, Tyler Bate - and his moustache - is building up his name in and around the Midlands. Trained by Dave Mastiff he often displays surprising feats of strength from his muscular but slight frame. With a couple of visits to WXW under his belt forming a fledgeling tag team with Karsten Beck he's expanding his horizons and starting to prove himself."

Age - lower, he's just turned 18

Works in - add Europe

Moveset - Add German Suplex

Tag Teams - Tyler Bate and Karsten Beck - experience 3 (on the 1 match one experience basis....)

Stats -

Power - 60

Charisma - 60

Star Quality - 40

Sex Appeal - 25

Popularity - I'd lower everywhere to 0 but leave Central England at 5

I'll add more with time so bare with me, I'll either edit into the post or make a separate one so you can remember what you've done depending on preference. Stats people are welcome to debate of course, I'm hesitant to change too much but they seem reasonable enough from my experience of them.

[Rich]

did CM Punk become better at Psychology overnight when he signed with WWE? Or was he always that good?

"Just because he had a couple of 5* matches doesn't mean he actually knew what he was doing!1!"

On that note though - and not strictly relevant to the psychology - I think the mod does a pretty good job of not being too WWEcentric. Very few of us actually have time to watch loads of videos of thousands of wrestlers and then decide on a rating between 1 and 10 (or 20 if working in 5's. I know it's 100 but the difference between 59 and 61 isn't worth a huge debate) but while I think some people could do with tweaking as a general picture people aren't too far out from reality.

Just because Dave Meltzer gives the match subjectively a 5 star rating the participants are above scruitiny?

[lanky316]

There's scrutiny and there's saying they're incapable of telling a good in ring story because they're only 25 years old and not working in the WWE. While Meltzers ratings are obviously one persons own viewpoint I was under the impression that Joe Vs Punk II was well received by most and not many would argue that it is a highly regarded match. The statement me and Skummy are making is "someone doesn't become good at stuff just because they signed for the WWE or are old". Did that Iron Man match show he could have an excellent long match or was it a complete and utter mess because neither could tell a story due to none of them being around in the 80s?

[Gabriel]

Seems like a small problem in comparison to what's been talked about, but is there a reason why everyone in NXT's short name is the same as their full name?

[TheWho87]

Thats down to the simple logic that if their name fitted as a short name then I put it there, I have been in two minds to change it to how the game sets up short names (which tends to just be surnames) or to just leave it as is.

I've got no problem going through changing short names, it would just take time.

EDIT

Just started changing short names, in general I'll be removing first names, not really sure on the best way for gimmicks such as Tiger Mask and the Chikara Ants so they will likley stay the same for now rather than being just Mask/Ant.

Edited March 11, 2015 by TheWho87

[LittleDaniel]

Thats down to the simple logic that if their name fitted as a short name then I put it there, I have been in two minds to change it to how the game sets up short names (which tends to just be surnames) or to just leave it as is.

I've got no problem going through changing short names, it would just take time.

EDIT

Just started changing short names, in general I'll be removing first names, not really sure on the best way for gimmicks such as Tiger Mask and the Chikara Ants so they will likley stay the same for now rather than being just Mask/Ant.

The Colony tend to go by the first word in their name for a shorter nickname. Soldier Ant is Soldier, Worker Ant is Worker, etc.

[TheWho87]

Slightly stupid question, has anyone seen a in game generated worker debut as a "Jr", I am wondering how the game sets them up in game, is it just Jr or is it , Jr.

Just another thing I thought about since I havent seen anything generate from the legacies.

[ml258]

Just Jr, no comma.

[TheWho87]

Guess I got more names to change...

[rdylanm01]

Jerry Lawler and Brian Lawler should have a Hatred of Doug Gilbert.

The story, in case you didn't know, is that in Memphis in the 90s, it was a highly kept secret that Brian Christopher, as he is known, was Jerry Lawler's son. Doug was cutting a promo and began shooting on Jerry Lawler, revealing that Brian is Jerry's son. He also called Jerry a rapist and called Randy Hales a crack smoker, all on LIVE Television. Since, then, Jerry and Brian have not particularly liked Doug, and Doug has made no secret that he hates them.

In fact, here's a clip of the promo.

Edited March 14, 2015 by rdylanm01

[TheWho87]

What would be the best way to have short names for workers who use "El Hijo del", "Mini" and "Pequeno"?

Also in most cases I havent changed workers who have one letter after their name for example Robbie X, on top of that people with Jr and numbered version I've also kept in for example Dr. Wagner Jr and Rayo Tapatio II short names are Wagner Jr and Tapatio II.