The Dark Knight Rises

[deli]

And to avenge her fathers death by killing bats.

[apsham]

All I can say is thank fuck for Summers.

And also the other stuff I have said below.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Bart Simpsham

[Dingle]

Anyway, what goal? I already get the destiny bullshit, but why did he want to do that? Why Gotham? Why not elsewhere? Why didn't he want to kill Bane? As for your ridiculous "arrest us" comment, giving up is not the same as having a moral compass. She didn't NEED to say "his only crime was loving too much" or whatever, yet she did, meaning that she clearly has no concept of morality and yet she survived so long in the world under a guise.

It makes no sense to me for her to see no problem with everything Bane did, and yet she managed to keep up a front to the entire world (assuming her company was as big as W.E., which it probably is) and also decided to throw in a quick fuck for Bruce. Her actions are not consistent and are seemingly thrown in so that we don't pick up that she's the big baddie too early. I'm all for plot twists, but I expect consistency between her bad and good side.

[Dingle]

All I can say is thank fuck for Summers.

You mean thank fuck someone is here that can argue your point without you doing it yourself? Way to add nothing to the thread mate. Congrats.

[apsham]

Why Gotham? That is mentioned in the film AND in Batman Begins - al Ghul targets Gotham because he believes it to be the world's fulcrum of corruption and despair, not worth saving and not worth existing. That's just... the way it's been.

And as far as Talia's action goes? She is a fucking villain. Everything that Summers has ALREADY said covers that. She plays her part well - just because she doesn't have morality, doesn't mean that she doesn't understand what people expect good morality to be. It's not a terrifyingly hard concept - it's a classic double life trope.

You mean thank fuck someone is here that can argue your point without you doing it yourself? Way to add nothing to the thread mate. Congrats.

It adds a hell of a lot more than anything I've seen you argue in here.

[Skummy]

To be fair, my issue is less with the morality of it (the old "who's the real crook, the man who robs a bank or the one who founds one" dichotomy was in play for the whole movie, after all), just with how corny and outright ridiculous the line itself was.

[TKz]

Reading all this, something that did pop up in my mind...

Isn't Gotham a good place at this point? Like, The Harvey Dent Act had brought down organised crime completely... so why would the League of Shadows need to cleanse the city when it's now just as good as any other? I mean, I guess you could argue Talia was finishing the job for vengeance or something, but ultimately, Gotham didn't need to be 'cleansed' of evil until Bane turned up and fucked the whole city up.

[Dingle]

You mean thank fuck someone is here that can argue your point without you doing it yourself? Way to add nothing to the thread mate. Congrats.

It adds a hell of a lot more than anything I've seen you argue in here.

No, that last post did, but coming in and saying "thank fuck for summers" adds nothing to a movie discussion thread. I'm not sure how you can try and argue that.

Also, I accept that I may not be clued up on all the reasons and I already said that. I'm asking questions and you answered a few, my not knowing Batman Begins as well as everyone else is not a sign that I'm not contributing at all, it's just a sign that I've only seen the first film once and the second film a couple of times when it first came out. Again, I'll see it tomorrow and probably change my mind depending on certain things, but she just seemed so fake and...well, shit. Maybe it's just her performance, but I didn't buy her as a good guy, didn't buy her as a bad guy, and I don't buy her lack of morality even if you can explain it. It didn't convince me, and that's all that really matters.

Also, my memory of the film is going here so maybe I'm wrong, but didn't she basically tell Bats that he had to take the bomb and fly it away from the city because she destroyed the reactor?

[apsham]

Reading all this, something that did pop up in my mind...

Isn't Gotham a good place at this point? Like, The Harvey Dent Act had brought down organised crime completely... so why would the League of Shadows need to cleanse the city when it's now just as good as any other? I mean, I guess you could argue Talia was finishing the job for vengeance or something, but ultimately, Gotham didn't need to be 'cleansed' of evil until Bane turned up and fucked the whole city up.

By this point, al Ghul is essentially dead in this universe and Talia has been putting the plan into action for 8 years. You could say it's because of revenge or a stubbornness that just won't go away over so many years of putting the plan into action - but the most likely answer is, that they are flat out evil and have set in stone beliefs about Gotham and what needs to be done to it, no matter how 'cleansed' it seems.

[apsham]

You mean thank fuck someone is here that can argue your point without you doing it yourself? Way to add nothing to the thread mate. Congrats.

It adds a hell of a lot more than anything I've seen you argue in here.

No, that last post did, but coming in and saying "thank fuck for summers" adds nothing to a movie discussion thread. I'm not sure how you can try and argue that.

Also, I accept that I may not be clued up on all the reasons and I already said that. I'm asking questions and you answered a few, my not knowing Batman Begins as well as everyone else is not a sign that I'm not contributing at all, it's just a sign that I've only seen the first film once and the second film a couple of times when it first came out. Again, I'll see it tomorrow and probably change my mind depending on certain things, but she just seemed so fake and...well, shit. Maybe it's just her performance, but I didn't buy her as a good guy, didn't buy her as a bad guy, and I don't buy her lack of morality even if you can explain it. It didn't convince me, and that's all that really matters.

Also, my memory of the film is going here so maybe I'm wrong, but didn't she basically tell Bats that he had to take the bomb and fly it away from the city because she destroyed the reactor?

She alluded to flooding the reactor room, which is something that was mentioned as a possibility earlier in the film - Bruce gave her the ability to when she was first shown the reactor, so at that point he knew the original plan wouldn't and couldn't work. She didn't exactly tell him that's what he would have to do, but he knew it was the only option to save Gotham.

[TKz]

Reading all this, something that did pop up in my mind...

Isn't Gotham a good place at this point? Like, The Harvey Dent Act had brought down organised crime completely... so why would the League of Shadows need to cleanse the city when it's now just as good as any other? I mean, I guess you could argue Talia was finishing the job for vengeance or something, but ultimately, Gotham didn't need to be 'cleansed' of evil until Bane turned up and fucked the whole city up.

By this point, al Ghul is essentially dead in this universe and Talia has been putting the plan into action for 8 years. You could say it's because of revenge or a stubbornness that just won't go away over so many years of putting the plan into action - but the most likely answer is, that they are flat out evil and have set in stone beliefs about Gotham and what needs to be done to it, no matter how 'cleansed' it seems.

I guess evil organisations aren't big on second chances.

Funnily enough, a lot of the plot holes in this film could have been sorted out by just... not adding certain scenes. If we'd never learned about Bruce's leg or the fact he'd lost all of his money (which ultimately didn't seem to matter at all) two of the bigger plot holes (how'd he get out of the prison, how'd he get back to Gotham) could be explained a little easier. I mean with crime basically gone, the reason for him not being Batman any more could easily have been that he's just getting older and hasn't been keeping in shape, he's just spent the last 8 years moping over Rachel's death and not being able to move on from being Batman.

[Skummy]

Reading all this, something that did pop up in my mind...

Isn't Gotham a good place at this point? Like, The Harvey Dent Act had brought down organised crime completely... so why would the League of Shadows need to cleanse the city when it's now just as good as any other? I mean, I guess you could argue Talia was finishing the job for vengeance or something, but ultimately, Gotham didn't need to be 'cleansed' of evil until Bane turned up and fucked the whole city up.

What Sham said, but also, the city is still built on "crime" from a moral perspective; the stock market and big business "stealing" from the "common man" is a theme that comes up throughout the movie, so presumably in the eyes of Talia and Bane, the likes of the Wayne Enterprises board and major businessman are as much "organised criminals" as any mob boss was. Part of the point of the film, to me, was that Catwoman thinks she wants the same thing Bane wants - until she actually sees what the end result of that is.

Also, Gotham is still inherently immoral as it's crime-free status is built entirely on the lie of who Harvey Dent was.

[TKz]

Reading all this, something that did pop up in my mind...

Isn't Gotham a good place at this point? Like, The Harvey Dent Act had brought down organised crime completely... so why would the League of Shadows need to cleanse the city when it's now just as good as any other? I mean, I guess you could argue Talia was finishing the job for vengeance or something, but ultimately, Gotham didn't need to be 'cleansed' of evil until Bane turned up and fucked the whole city up.

What Sham said, but also, the city is still built on "crime" from a moral perspective; the stock market and big business "stealing" from the "common man" is a theme that comes up throughout the movie, so presumably in the eyes of Talia and Bane, the likes of the Wayne Enterprises board and major businessman are as much "organised criminals" as any mob boss was. Part of the point of the film, to me, was that Catwoman thinks she wants the same thing Bane wants - until she actually sees what the end result of that is.

Also, Gotham is still inherently immoral as it's crime-free status is built entirely on the lie of who Harvey Dent was.

That last bit is true, but Bane doesn't even know that until he finds the letter on Gordon. At which point, the plan has been in motion for a few years at least. And if you're looking at the big business aspect, surely the League of Shadows probably had a lot more cities to wipe out than just Gotham. >_> Though I suppose at the end of the day they're still bad guys with motivations that aren't exactly just, so the reason could easily just be finishing the job R'as started, regardless of how much the city had improved.

[apsham]

Ahh yes - how could I have forgotten about that. The fact that Bane was running the kangaroo courts specifically for the rich and well to do people is another sign of the beliefs of the League.

[ChrisSteeleAteMyHamster]

It wasn't much of a twist though. In the prison Bruce gets told two stories - one of Bane's face getting mutilated and the doctor screwing up any attempt at fixing it. The second story of the child escaping. We see the child with a perfectly fine face so there was never any possibility of Bane and the child being the same person.

[DAv]

Reading all this, something that did pop up in my mind...

Isn't Gotham a good place at this point? Like, The Harvey Dent Act had brought down organised crime completely... so why would the League of Shadows need to cleanse the city when it's now just as good as any other? I mean, I guess you could argue Talia was finishing the job for vengeance or something, but ultimately, Gotham didn't need to be 'cleansed' of evil until Bane turned up and fucked the whole city up.

By this point, al Ghul is essentially dead in this universe and Talia has been putting the plan into action for 8 years. You could say it's because of revenge or a stubbornness that just won't go away over so many years of putting the plan into action - but the most likely answer is, that they are flat out evil and have set in stone beliefs about Gotham and what needs to be done to it, no matter how 'cleansed' it seems.

I guess evil organisations aren't big on second chances.

Funnily enough, a lot of the plot holes in this film could have been sorted out by just... not adding certain scenes. If we'd never learned about Bruce's leg or the fact he'd lost all of his money (which ultimately didn't seem to matter at all) two of the bigger plot holes (how'd he get out of the prison, how'd he get back to Gotham) could be explained a little easier. I mean with crime basically gone, the reason for him not being Batman any more could easily have been that he's just getting older and hasn't been keeping in shape, he's just spent the last 8 years moping over Rachel's death and not being able to move on from being Batman.

I don't see how him getting back to Gotham would be such a plot hole. He spent several years travelling around the world on his own with few resources. He's had the ability to get from one place to another while going under the radar for a while now and he had twenty days to do so. Also, I thought those were the reasons he hadn't been Batman. The leg thing just seemed to be on top of everything else that had happened as opposed to a reason for him hanging up the cowl.

[Kaney]

Reading all this, something that did pop up in my mind...

Isn't Gotham a good place at this point? Like, The Harvey Dent Act had brought down organised crime completely... so why would the League of Shadows need to cleanse the city when it's now just as good as any other? I mean, I guess you could argue Talia was finishing the job for vengeance or something, but ultimately, Gotham didn't need to be 'cleansed' of evil until Bane turned up and fucked the whole city up.

What Sham said, but also, the city is still built on "crime" from a moral perspective; the stock market and big business "stealing" from the "common man" is a theme that comes up throughout the movie, so presumably in the eyes of Talia and Bane, the likes of the Wayne Enterprises board and major businessman are as much "organised criminals" as any mob boss was. Part of the point of the film, to me, was that Catwoman thinks she wants the same thing Bane wants - until she actually sees what the end result of that is.

Also, Gotham is still inherently immoral as it's crime-free status is built entirely on the lie of who Harvey Dent was.

Its summed up pretty well when Bane hits the stock market building. The guy says "theres no money here to steal" and Bane just said "well why are you here then?" or words to that effect. It's pretty obvious the League still sees the city as irrepairably corrupt.

It wasn't much of a twist though. In the prison Bruce gets told two stories - one of Bane's face getting mutilated and the doctor screwing up any attempt at fixing it. The second story of the child escaping. We see the child with a perfectly fine face so there was never any possibility of Bane and the child being the same person.

Well, not really. Because we see Banes real face sans mask in the prison, before all the scarring. So the kid could have been Bane, unless I forgot about a part that says the scarring actually happened in the prison, but still. The child shared the same time and space in the prison as a non-scarred Bane so eh.

[ChrisSteeleAteMyHamster]

Oh I agree with that for sure. In fact it lays down a very good story for Bane that leaves him far from black-and-white monster.

[rocksta]

This is so stupid.

Either way Skummy has every right to not like the movie. He explains what he doesn't like and why and Skummy isn't a stupid person from what I've gleamed from his posts throughout EWB. Nolan's Batman series is considered a modern classic by a lot of people and it's considered taboo to criticize it. Just look at that whole shtick from Rotten Tomatoes over bad reviews for the Dark Knight. Quite frankly though, who cares. Skummy didn't enjoy the film, a lot of people did. Just because certain people didn't like it doesn't mean your enjoyment of the film is any less meaningful.

[wrathofcarnage]

"Bruce was broke" isn't really a plot hole. He was broke in the sense that he was no longer a financially viable head of a corporation, but he was in no way penniless. The only thing Bane accomplished with his stock market shenanigans was the elimination of certain non-liquid assets and trade-able commodities. Wayne likely has large savings accounts at any number of standard banks that wouldn't be subject to any trades like that. I'm sure he had several hundred thousand dollars squirreled away in such a fashion. This doesn't even take into account the large available credit balances he was sure to have access to.

TL;DR: Dude could afford a plane ticket.