EWR 2012 Stats Update: July ***PLEASE USE SPOILER TAGS***

[Mancuerda]

Responses are bolded.

-Check High Spots for Ric Flair. I'd argue his overness should be 98.

-Check High Spots for John Bradshaw Layfield. Raise his brawl to 77, technical to 38, selling to 79, and charisma to 94.

But these... first of all, what constitutes "high spots" these days? Flair and JBL weren't doing them when they were still wrestling actively, and I hardly think they'd be doing them now. Flair's biggest bump is falling off a ladder, but only from about halfway up typically. He does bleed a lot, but bleeding isn't a high spot. I don't think he deserves it. And JBL doesn't take hardcore bumps anymore and hasn't since he fully got into his rich Texan gimmick.

Ric Flair is based primarily off of the ladder bump he took off the top to the outside through a table in his match with Edge.

His match against Edge from like, 6 years ago? Or 7? Seriously? He doesn't do bumps anymore.

As for Flair, I don't think he deserves an over of 98. He would have if this were like... 1997, but he hasn't really been that "over". He's known around the world, but if you tried putting a world title on him in this day and age, people would laugh and call it ridiculously stupid, and for good reason. That's one thing about over - a wrestler can be popular worldwide, but his role or attributes not fit a title run.

Overness =/= credibility. Plenty of older guys have higher overness because they are well known, not because they are "credible". If overness = credibility, you'd have to lower Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, and Mr. McMahon's overness (none of which should happen). Ric Flair is world-renowned one of the best of all time, definitely more well known than the guys main eventing today.

No he doesn't. He hasn't been a real main eventer in 15 years. He doesn't deserve higher than 95 or so. The guy wouldn't be more well known than John Cena. Wrestling fans who saw Flair's last title reign, if they were 18 around that time, they're like 30 now... There are a lot of NEW wrestling fans who don't really know Ric Flair all that well. 95 is still really high and would be accurate.

The stats changes for JBL seem extremely unnecessary. The guy doesn't wrestle anymore, and it seems silly to want to boost his stats when I doubt he's going to be better NOW after he's been semi-retired for quite a while than compared to when he was world champion. He never deserved 94 in charisma, even in his prime, and certainly not selling of 79.

He was always a terrific brawler, he showcases that every time he steps into the ring (even his recent outings). In my book he's one of the top promo guys of this generation and deserves at the least in the mid 90s. His selling was also always very underrated, if it were up to me I'd put it at 81.

If it were "up to you?" So you didn't just suggest 79? Who was that, then, JBL himself? I don't get your comment. If you aren't making the suggestions you WANT to make, then WTF are you doing?

Whatever. JBL wasn't that great. He is worse now.

[conker8]

TNA Spoiler:

Zema Ion is the X-Division champion

[Guest Team 720]

Remove Jack Bonza, QT Marshall, Dragonfly and Vin Gerard from CHIKARA.

Bonza and Marshall have only made one appearance in CHIKARA to my knowledge, Dragonfly is semi-retired and Vin Gerard lost a loser leaves CHIKARA match back in February.

Dragonfly is active with Wrestling Is Fun, Chikara's unofficial developmental promotion. Jack Bonza and QT also wrestled there. Not sure if that defends anything or not but that maybe the logic...

[Bill1996]

Raquel will have a match soon on NXT (in the next 3/4 weeks) but she is also getting over on other FCW programming.

I agree with the brand split. For Raw/SmackDown it is not a hard spilit anymore which is why you have not had a draft show. NXT though seems like developmental now more so than an actual main brand.

I wasn't questioning the overness boost, per se... Was just clarifying that she has yet to appear on NXT... The list you gave was "NXT Notes based on the first three shows."

Like I said, I'm not touching stats until the 20th anyway... I got it noted, just was confused why it was under "NXT notes" when she hasn't been on NXT yet is all... Wanted to make sure you didn't confuse her with another "FCW Diva" who has been on the first three shows more than anything.

As for the brand split thing... While I agree that NXT isn't really a "brand," per se, it's really just a way to separate those who have been on NXT from the Main Rster (those who are on Raw and SmackDown) and development talent that aren't on a "bookable" show... In the game, I believe that NXT should be a bookable show, which means that those who are on NXT can't be development workers... Hope that makes sense.

Currently, I'm working on updating the data based on this past weekend's NCW-FF and OVW shows... So, I'm not really focused on WWE at the moment. So, everyone has plenty of time to debate.

Another reason I think some guys come off as "overrated" is due to them not really being touched in the data.

Take Ken Shamrock for instance... Since he hasn't been around in a while, chances are, his stats are still where they were when he was at least semi-actve. Now that he's older, his stats should (at least in theory) go down some, along with his overness. Unfortunately, when workers like this don't get mentioned in our monthly threads, they don't get messed with in the game and end up keeping the same stats throughout. So, when we look at July, 2012, he has similar, if not the same stats he had back in 2010 (and maybe even earlier for some workers).

The easiest and best way to combat this sort of thing is, when you see something in the current data that yu think needs adjusting... POST ABOUT IT! At least then, it puts that "on the radar" for people to have a discussion about. If people see something but don't post, chances are, most won't even notice it.

Being as specific as possible when suggesting changes is a big plus as well... if you can say "Lower worker X's overness to 73," it's a lot better than saying "I think worker X's overness is too high" or "Worker X should have his overness dropped 2-5 points." People might disagree and the change might not always go as you suggest, but at least it brings the situation to everyone's attention.

-Bill

[KrisClassic]

Responses are bolded.

-Check High Spots for Ric Flair. I'd argue his overness should be 98.

-Check High Spots for John Bradshaw Layfield. Raise his brawl to 77, technical to 38, selling to 79, and charisma to 94.

But these... first of all, what constitutes "high spots" these days? Flair and JBL weren't doing them when they were still wrestling actively, and I hardly think they'd be doing them now. Flair's biggest bump is falling off a ladder, but only from about halfway up typically. He does bleed a lot, but bleeding isn't a high spot. I don't think he deserves it. And JBL doesn't take hardcore bumps anymore and hasn't since he fully got into his rich Texan gimmick.

Ric Flair is based primarily off of the ladder bump he took off the top to the outside through a table in his match with Edge.

His match against Edge from like, 6 years ago? Or 7? Seriously? He doesn't do bumps anymore.

As for Flair, I don't think he deserves an over of 98. He would have if this were like... 1997, but he hasn't really been that "over". He's known around the world, but if you tried putting a world title on him in this day and age, people would laugh and call it ridiculously stupid, and for good reason. That's one thing about over - a wrestler can be popular worldwide, but his role or attributes not fit a title run.

Overness =/= credibility. Plenty of older guys have higher overness because they are well known, not because they are "credible". If overness = credibility, you'd have to lower Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, and Mr. McMahon's overness (none of which should happen). Ric Flair is world-renowned one of the best of all time, definitely more well known than the guys main eventing today.

No he doesn't. He hasn't been a real main eventer in 15 years. He doesn't deserve higher than 95 or so. The guy wouldn't be more well known than John Cena. Wrestling fans who saw Flair's last title reign, if they were 18 around that time, they're like 30 now... There are a lot of NEW wrestling fans who don't really know Ric Flair all that well. 95 is still really high and would be accurate.

The stats changes for JBL seem extremely unnecessary. The guy doesn't wrestle anymore, and it seems silly to want to boost his stats when I doubt he's going to be better NOW after he's been semi-retired for quite a while than compared to when he was world champion. He never deserved 94 in charisma, even in his prime, and certainly not selling of 79.

He was always a terrific brawler, he showcases that every time he steps into the ring (even his recent outings). In my book he's one of the top promo guys of this generation and deserves at the least in the mid 90s. His selling was also always very underrated, if it were up to me I'd put it at 81.

If it were "up to you?" So you didn't just suggest 79? Who was that, then, JBL himself? I don't get your comment. If you aren't making the suggestions you WANT to make, then WTF are you doing?

Whatever. JBL wasn't that great. He is worse now.

No need to be hostile or rude. I was just saying, I suggested raising it to 79 only due to the fact that I knew that raising it higher was a bit uncalled for since he hasn't been active for a bit. JBL is one of the top of this generation in my book and deserves to stats. To say he is "worse now" without any proof is what really makes no sense. As for Flair, the argument for his overness is invalid. Just because someone isn't actively wrestling/have "credibility" doesn't mean they aren't well known. Sure to newer fans he may not be as well-known, but I was under the impression that this update was geared towards the audience as a whole, not just the new ones.

Guys who I have not seen but feel are entirely overrated:

Adam Cole

Alex Reynolds

Brad Allen

Caleb Konley

Dustin Rayz

Gran Akuma

John Silver

Kyle Matthews

Latin Dragon

Niles Young

RV1

Ryan Slater

Sugar Dunkerton

Guys I have seen but over-rated:

Anthony Nese: lower brawl to 62, lower speed to 71 and lower technical to 64.

Bobby Fish: lower speed to 48.

BxB Hulk: lower brawl to 63, speed to 78 and technical to 59 he is pretty sloppy at times.

Chuck Taylor: lower speed to 72.

Dave Crist: lower speed to 74.

El Generico: lower brawl to 58 and technical to 70.

Jake Crist: lower speed to 78

Johnny Gargano: lower brawl to 64.

Pelle Primeau: lower speed to 72.

Vin Gerard: lower brawl to 55 and lower speed to 65.

UltraMantis Black: lower brawl to 56.

So, the first half you haven't seen, but all the same don't think they are deserving of what they have?

As for the second:

-Disagree with lowering Nese's brawl after seeing his recent PWS outings against KAI and Great Muta.

-BxB Hulk's speed is fine as is IMO.

-Chuck Taylor deserves at least a 74-75.

-Crist brothers: Dave at 75 and Jakes at 79 IMO.

-Johnny Gargano is one of the better brawlers on the indy scene today, definitely think he should stay as is.

-Pelle Primeau at least 74 in speed.

-Would make the argument to leave Vin Gerard's brawl as is.

-Would say UMB should be in the middle at around 60-61.

Other note:

-Raise Jakob Hammermeier's brawl to 52, stiffness to 38, selling to 68, and overness to 39.

[Guest Team 720]

Responses are bolded.

-Check High Spots for Ric Flair. I'd argue his overness should be 98.

-Check High Spots for John Bradshaw Layfield. Raise his brawl to 77, technical to 38, selling to 79, and charisma to 94.

But these... first of all, what constitutes "high spots" these days? Flair and JBL weren't doing them when they were still wrestling actively, and I hardly think they'd be doing them now. Flair's biggest bump is falling off a ladder, but only from about halfway up typically. He does bleed a lot, but bleeding isn't a high spot. I don't think he deserves it. And JBL doesn't take hardcore bumps anymore and hasn't since he fully got into his rich Texan gimmick.

Ric Flair is based primarily off of the ladder bump he took off the top to the outside through a table in his match with Edge.

His match against Edge from like, 6 years ago? Or 7? Seriously? He doesn't do bumps anymore.

As for Flair, I don't think he deserves an over of 98. He would have if this were like... 1997, but he hasn't really been that "over". He's known around the world, but if you tried putting a world title on him in this day and age, people would laugh and call it ridiculously stupid, and for good reason. That's one thing about over - a wrestler can be popular worldwide, but his role or attributes not fit a title run.

Overness =/= credibility. Plenty of older guys have higher overness because they are well known, not because they are "credible". If overness = credibility, you'd have to lower Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, and Mr. McMahon's overness (none of which should happen). Ric Flair is world-renowned one of the best of all time, definitely more well known than the guys main eventing today.

No he doesn't. He hasn't been a real main eventer in 15 years. He doesn't deserve higher than 95 or so. The guy wouldn't be more well known than John Cena. Wrestling fans who saw Flair's last title reign, if they were 18 around that time, they're like 30 now... There are a lot of NEW wrestling fans who don't really know Ric Flair all that well. 95 is still really high and would be accurate.

The stats changes for JBL seem extremely unnecessary. The guy doesn't wrestle anymore, and it seems silly to want to boost his stats when I doubt he's going to be better NOW after he's been semi-retired for quite a while than compared to when he was world champion. He never deserved 94 in charisma, even in his prime, and certainly not selling of 79.

He was always a terrific brawler, he showcases that every time he steps into the ring (even his recent outings). In my book he's one of the top promo guys of this generation and deserves at the least in the mid 90s. His selling was also always very underrated, if it were up to me I'd put it at 81.

If it were "up to you?" So you didn't just suggest 79? Who was that, then, JBL himself? I don't get your comment. If you aren't making the suggestions you WANT to make, then WTF are you doing?

Whatever. JBL wasn't that great. He is worse now.

No need to be hostile or rude. I was just saying, I suggested raising it to 79 only due to the fact that I knew that raising it higher was a bit uncalled for since he hasn't been active for a bit. JBL is one of the top of this generation in my book and deserves to stats. To say he is "worse now" without any proof is what really makes no sense. As for Flair, the argument for his overness is invalid. Just because someone isn't actively wrestling/have "credibility" doesn't mean they aren't well known. Sure to newer fans he may not be as well-known, but I was under the impression that this update was geared towards the audience as a whole, not just the new ones.

Guys who I have not seen but feel are entirely overrated:

Adam Cole

Alex Reynolds

Brad Allen

Caleb Konley

Dustin Rayz

Gran Akuma

John Silver

Kyle Matthews

Latin Dragon

Niles Young

RV1

Ryan Slater

Sugar Dunkerton

Guys I have seen but over-rated:

Anthony Nese: lower brawl to 62, lower speed to 71 and lower technical to 64.

Bobby Fish: lower speed to 48.

BxB Hulk: lower brawl to 63, speed to 78 and technical to 59 he is pretty sloppy at times.

Chuck Taylor: lower speed to 72.

Dave Crist: lower speed to 74.

El Generico: lower brawl to 58 and technical to 70.

Jake Crist: lower speed to 78

Johnny Gargano: lower brawl to 64.

Pelle Primeau: lower speed to 72.

Vin Gerard: lower brawl to 55 and lower speed to 65.

UltraMantis Black: lower brawl to 56.

So, the first half you haven't seen, but all the same don't think they are deserving of what they have?

As for the second:

-Disagree with lowering Nese's brawl after seeing his recent PWS outings against KAI and Great Muta.

-BxB Hulk's speed is fine as is IMO.

-Chuck Taylor deserves at least a 74-75.

-Crist brothers: Dave at 75 and Jakes at 79 IMO.

-Johnny Gargano is one of the better brawlers on the indy scene today, definitely think he should stay as is.

-Pelle Primeau at least 74 in speed.

-Would make the argument to leave Vin Gerard's brawl as is.

-Would say UMB should be in the middle at around 60-61.

Other note:

-Raise Jakob Hammermeier's brawl to 52, stiffness to 38, selling to 68, and overness to 39.

There is no "proof" that JBL would have gotten better either since he hasn't wrestled in three years. With Flair, he would not be able to draw by himself anymore. Is he a name, YES but you put him on a card and it would not necessarily make it a bigger show. Maybe more attended due to his name but not enough to warrant a 98. I feel 95 is the best bet for him at this point.

I would offer my opinnions for those guys IF I had better experience with them I just feel that their current stats are bloated because no one has had the opportunity to watch them to challenge you on them. I would offer my suggestions if I could. The CHIKARA, CZW and DGUSA guys I noted, I have seen enough of to register judgement. BxB Hulk for instance I have seen enough through Dragon Gate in Japan which actually is more constant that his DGUSA showing. I watch Dragon Gate's Inifinity shows through Open The Dragon Gate and quiet frankly while he is impressive, he is rather sloppy when it comes to speed which a 78 would fit better because it allows for the sloppyness that has shown.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Team 720

[Lineker]

TNA PPV spoilers:

Austin Aries is the new TNA World Heavyweight Champion

[Mancuerda]

My bad, Kris. Sorry for getting a little hostile. I just don't agree, so I'll leave it at that.

Anyway... TNA Destination X spoilers (condensed):

Austin Aries is the new TNA World Champion

Zema Ion is the new TNA X-Division Champion

I would bump up Zema Ion's over a couple points to 56 and raise his charisma to 75.

[KrisClassic]

Responses are bolded.

-Check High Spots for Ric Flair. I'd argue his overness should be 98.

-Check High Spots for John Bradshaw Layfield. Raise his brawl to 77, technical to 38, selling to 79, and charisma to 94.

But these... first of all, what constitutes "high spots" these days? Flair and JBL weren't doing them when they were still wrestling actively, and I hardly think they'd be doing them now. Flair's biggest bump is falling off a ladder, but only from about halfway up typically. He does bleed a lot, but bleeding isn't a high spot. I don't think he deserves it. And JBL doesn't take hardcore bumps anymore and hasn't since he fully got into his rich Texan gimmick.

Ric Flair is based primarily off of the ladder bump he took off the top to the outside through a table in his match with Edge.

His match against Edge from like, 6 years ago? Or 7? Seriously? He doesn't do bumps anymore.

As for Flair, I don't think he deserves an over of 98. He would have if this were like... 1997, but he hasn't really been that "over". He's known around the world, but if you tried putting a world title on him in this day and age, people would laugh and call it ridiculously stupid, and for good reason. That's one thing about over - a wrestler can be popular worldwide, but his role or attributes not fit a title run.

Overness =/= credibility. Plenty of older guys have higher overness because they are well known, not because they are "credible". If overness = credibility, you'd have to lower Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, and Mr. McMahon's overness (none of which should happen). Ric Flair is world-renowned one of the best of all time, definitely more well known than the guys main eventing today.

No he doesn't. He hasn't been a real main eventer in 15 years. He doesn't deserve higher than 95 or so. The guy wouldn't be more well known than John Cena. Wrestling fans who saw Flair's last title reign, if they were 18 around that time, they're like 30 now... There are a lot of NEW wrestling fans who don't really know Ric Flair all that well. 95 is still really high and would be accurate.

The stats changes for JBL seem extremely unnecessary. The guy doesn't wrestle anymore, and it seems silly to want to boost his stats when I doubt he's going to be better NOW after he's been semi-retired for quite a while than compared to when he was world champion. He never deserved 94 in charisma, even in his prime, and certainly not selling of 79.

He was always a terrific brawler, he showcases that every time he steps into the ring (even his recent outings). In my book he's one of the top promo guys of this generation and deserves at the least in the mid 90s. His selling was also always very underrated, if it were up to me I'd put it at 81.

If it were "up to you?" So you didn't just suggest 79? Who was that, then, JBL himself? I don't get your comment. If you aren't making the suggestions you WANT to make, then WTF are you doing?

Whatever. JBL wasn't that great. He is worse now.

No need to be hostile or rude. I was just saying, I suggested raising it to 79 only due to the fact that I knew that raising it higher was a bit uncalled for since he hasn't been active for a bit. JBL is one of the top of this generation in my book and deserves to stats. To say he is "worse now" without any proof is what really makes no sense. As for Flair, the argument for his overness is invalid. Just because someone isn't actively wrestling/have "credibility" doesn't mean they aren't well known. Sure to newer fans he may not be as well-known, but I was under the impression that this update was geared towards the audience as a whole, not just the new ones.

Guys who I have not seen but feel are entirely overrated:

Adam Cole

Alex Reynolds

Brad Allen

Caleb Konley

Dustin Rayz

Gran Akuma

John Silver

Kyle Matthews

Latin Dragon

Niles Young

RV1

Ryan Slater

Sugar Dunkerton

Guys I have seen but over-rated:

Anthony Nese: lower brawl to 62, lower speed to 71 and lower technical to 64.

Bobby Fish: lower speed to 48.

BxB Hulk: lower brawl to 63, speed to 78 and technical to 59 he is pretty sloppy at times.

Chuck Taylor: lower speed to 72.

Dave Crist: lower speed to 74.

El Generico: lower brawl to 58 and technical to 70.

Jake Crist: lower speed to 78

Johnny Gargano: lower brawl to 64.

Pelle Primeau: lower speed to 72.

Vin Gerard: lower brawl to 55 and lower speed to 65.

UltraMantis Black: lower brawl to 56.

So, the first half you haven't seen, but all the same don't think they are deserving of what they have?

As for the second:

-Disagree with lowering Nese's brawl after seeing his recent PWS outings against KAI and Great Muta.

-BxB Hulk's speed is fine as is IMO.

-Chuck Taylor deserves at least a 74-75.

-Crist brothers: Dave at 75 and Jakes at 79 IMO.

-Johnny Gargano is one of the better brawlers on the indy scene today, definitely think he should stay as is.

-Pelle Primeau at least 74 in speed.

-Would make the argument to leave Vin Gerard's brawl as is.

-Would say UMB should be in the middle at around 60-61.

Other note:

-Raise Jakob Hammermeier's brawl to 52, stiffness to 38, selling to 68, and overness to 39.

There is no "proof" that JBL would have gotten better either since he hasn't wrestled in three years. With Flair, he would not be able to draw by himself anymore. Is he a name, YES but you put him on a card and it would not necessarily make it a bigger show. Maybe more attended due to his name but not enough to warrant a 98. I feel 95 is the best bet for him at this point.

I would offer my opinnions for those guys IF I had better experience with them I just feel that their current stats are bloated because no one has had the opportunity to watch them to challenge you on them. I would offer my suggestions if I could. The CHIKARA, CZW and DGUSA guys I noted, I have seen enough of to register judgement. BxB Hulk for instance I have seen enough through Dragon Gate in Japan which actually is more constant that his DGUSA showing. I watch Dragon Gate's Inifinity shows through Open The Dragon Gate and quiet frankly while he is impressive, he is rather sloppy when it comes to speed which a 78 would fit better because it allows for the sloppyness that has shown.

I disagree that Flair wouldn't be able to draw on his own. BTW, forgot to mention, disagree on El Generico's stats getting lowered as well. After all of the incredible brawls he's been apart of, his brawl should stay untouched. As for technical, mid 70s at least IMO.

@Manc, it's cool.

[conker8]

Guys who I have not seen but feel are entirely overrated:

Adam Cole

[...]

Disagree with that. His last bout with Kyle O' Reilly was tremendous. I feel Brawl 's stat could be raise.

Well, I notice for a lot of guys that the Speed stat was overrated for my taste.

For example, I don't see a guy like Clay at 31 (same as Orton, Ryback, Marella and Barrett).

For the moment, I updated the Brawl Ladder I did last month (added DGUSA and PWG):

86: Edge

85: Samoa Joe

84: Bully Ray, Davey Richards, Finlay, Sami Callihan, Undertaker

83: Shawn Michaels, Triple H, William Regal

82: Daniel Bryan, Sheamus, SHINGO

81: Abyss, Brock Lesnar, James Storm, Kassius Ohno, Kevin Steen, Matt Morgan, Randy Orton, Rhino

80: Kurt Angle

79: Chris Jericho, Christian, CM Punk, Eddie Edwards, Jay Briscoe, Jimmy Jacobs, John Cena, Low Ki, Rob Van Dam, Roderick Strong

78: Bobby Roode, Cody Rhodes, Dolph Ziggler, Hernandez, Kharma, Mark Briscoe, Steve Corino, Wade Barrett

77: Drew McIntyre, Jack Swagger, Jeff Jarrett, Super Dragon, Tensai

76: Beth Phoenix, Bobby Fish, Booker T, Johnny Gargano, Kane, Kyle O'Reilly, Mick Foley, Mr. Anderson, ODB, Rich Swann

75: Naruki Doi

74: Al Snow, Arik Cannon, Big Show, Brodie Lee, Dean Ambrose, Delirious, Douglas Williams, Jon Davis, Justin Gabriel, Michael Elgin, R-Truth, Ryback, Ted DiBiase, The Rock, Tommaso Ciampa, Zack Ryder

73: Akira Tozawa, Alberto Del Rio, Curt Hawkins, D'Angelo Dinero, Damien Sandow, Devon, Epico, Ezekiel Jackson, Heath Slater, Kevin Nash, Masaaki Mochizuki, Michael McGillicutty, Nigel McGuinness, Ricky Reyes, Sabu, Shelton Benjamin, TJ Perkins, Tyler Reks, YAMATO

72: Alex Riley, Austin Aries, Gunner, Jake Manning, Kyle Matthews, Mark Henry, Ric Flair, Sting

71: AJ Styles, Antonio Cesaro, Bray Wyatt, Brutus Magnus, Cedric Alexander, Jey Uso, Kofi Kingston, Mason Ryan, Santino Marella, Seth Rollins, The Miz

70:

69: Brodus Clay, CIMA, Conor O'Brian, Jeff Hardy, Jerry Lawler, Jimmy Uso, Joey Ryan, Martin Stone, Scott Lost, Xavier Woods

68: Adam Cole, Bo Dallas, Brian Cage-Taylor, Caleb Konley, David Otunga, Derrick Bateman, Jake Carter, Jinder Mahal, Mike Mondo, Rick Victor, Soldier Ant, Taz, Willie Mack, Yoshi Tatsu

67: BxB Hulk, Joseph Mercury, Kenneth Cameron, Mike Bennett, Richie Steamboat, Scott Reed, Steve Austin

66: Charlie Haas, Dante Dash, Leakee, Johnny Goodtime, Marcus Anthony, Player Uno, Primo, Robbie E, Sakamoto

65: El Generico, Rhett Titus, Titus O'Neil

64: Alexander Rusev, Big E Langston, Corey Graves, Crimson, Darren Young, DT Porter, James Bronson, Jesse James, Johnny Curtis, JTG, Natalya Neidhart, Rey Mysterio, Ryo Jimmy Saito, Sean Waltman, Tara, Val Kabious

63: Eric Young, Grizzly Redwood, Harlem Bravado, Percy Watson, Peter Avalon, Ricardo Rodriguez, Sarah Stock, Uhaa Nation

62 : Abraham Washington, B-Boy, Camacho, John Laurinaitis, Kid Kash, Sin Cara, Sofia Cortez, Susumu Yokosuka, Tyson Kidd

61: Christopher Daniels, CJ Parker, Gamma, Robbie T

60: Andy Ridge, Mickie James

59: Aiden English, Brad Allen, Colin Cassady, Hulk Hogan, Kenny King, Leo Kruger, Matt Striker, Mr. Ernesto Osiris, Tamina Snuka, Winter

58: AR Fox, Austin Draven, Byron Saxton, Erik Rowan, Garrett Dylan, Trish Stratus

57: Alex Shelley, Briley Pierce, Hunico, Jason Jordan

56: Ahtu, Jay Lethal, Lancelot Bravado, Muhammed Lawal, Rocky Romero, Scorpio Sky, The Great Khali

55:

54: Caprice Coleman, Evan Bourne, Famous B, Gail Kim, Garrett Bischoff, Jigsaw, Matt Jackson, Mr. McMahon, Pinkie Sanchez, Tenille, Zema Ion

53: Dusty Rhodes, John Silver, Mike Dalton, Paige, Prince Nana, Samuray Del Sol

52:

51: Aksana, Brad Maddox, Eve Torres, Nick Rogers

50: Trent Barreta

49: Alex Reynolds, Audrey Marie, Bret Hart, Chris Sabin, Chuck Taylor, Ricochet

48: Jesse Sorensen, Layla El, Madison Rayne

47: Alex Silva, Bob Evans, Hector Guerrero, Kaitlyn, Nick Jackson

46: AJ Lee, Alicia Fox, Eli Cottonwood, PAC

45: Kazarian

44: Adam Mercer, Archibald Peck, Derek Foore, Genki Horiguchi

43:

42: Raquel Diaz, Shane Hagadorn

41: Johnny Yuma, Kelly Kelly, Miss Tessmacher

40:

39: Rosita

38: Mike Cruz

37: Eric Bischoff

36: Candice LeRae, Matt Taven, Naomi Night, Rosa Mendes, Zokre

35:

34: Masato Yoshino

33: Christina Von Eerie

32: Excalibur, Ray Rosas

31: Dragon Kid

30: Ryan Taylor

29: Chris Kadillak, Flip Kendrick, Louis Lyndon

28: Buggy

27: Velvet Sky

26: Hornswoggle

25: Stalker Ichikawa

24: Truth Martini

23:

22: Caylee Turner

21: Player Dos

18: Reby Sky

17:

16: Larry Dallas, Stephanie McMahon

15: Phoenix Star

14: Brooke Hogan

13:

12:

11: Paul Heyman, Summer Rae

10: Jim Cornette

9: Vickie Guerrero

8: Cameron Lynn

7: Theodore Long, Jeremy Borash

6: Linda McMahon

5:

4: Lilian Garcia

[Mancuerda]

I love James Storm, but I think his charisma is just a little overrated. I'd lower it from 89 to 86. That puts him on par with Bobby Roode, who's better at cutting traditional promos but doesn't have Storm's personality, IMO.

[Darnez FC Forever]

Guys who I have not seen but feel are entirely overrated:

Adam Cole

[...]

Disagree with that. His last bout with Kyle O' Reilly was tremendous. I feel Brawl 's stat could be raise.

Well, I notice for a lot of guys that the Speed stat was overrated for my taste.

For example, I don't see a guy like Clay at 31 (same as Orton, Ryback, Marella and Barrett).

For the moment, I updated the Brawl Ladder I did last month (added DGUSA and PWG):

86: Edge

85: Samoa Joe

84: Bully Ray, Davey Richards, Finlay, Sami Callihan, Undertaker

83: Shawn Michaels, Triple H, William Regal

82: Daniel Bryan, Sheamus, SHINGO

81: Abyss, Brock Lesnar, James Storm, Kassius Ohno, Kevin Steen, Matt Morgan, Randy Orton, Rhino

80: Kurt Angle

79: Chris Jericho, Christian, CM Punk, Eddie Edwards, Jay Briscoe, Jimmy Jacobs, John Cena, Low Ki, Rob Van Dam, Roderick Strong

78: Bobby Roode, Cody Rhodes, Dolph Ziggler, Hernandez, Kharma, Mark Briscoe, Steve Corino, Wade Barrett

77: Drew McIntyre, Jack Swagger, Jeff Jarrett, Super Dragon, Tensai

76: Beth Phoenix, Bobby Fish, Booker T, Johnny Gargano, Kane, Kyle O'Reilly, Mick Foley, Mr. Anderson, ODB, Rich Swann

75: Naruki Doi

74: Al Snow, Arik Cannon, Big Show, Brodie Lee, Dean Ambrose, Delirious, Douglas Williams, Jon Davis, Justin Gabriel, Michael Elgin, R-Truth, Ryback, Ted DiBiase, The Rock, Tommaso Ciampa, Zack Ryder

73: Akira Tozawa, Alberto Del Rio, Curt Hawkins, D'Angelo Dinero, Damien Sandow, Devon, Epico, Ezekiel Jackson, Heath Slater, Kevin Nash, Masaaki Mochizuki, Michael McGillicutty, Nigel McGuinness, Ricky Reyes, Sabu, Shelton Benjamin, TJ Perkins, Tyler Reks, YAMATO

72: Alex Riley, Austin Aries, Gunner, Jake Manning, Kyle Matthews, Mark Henry, Ric Flair, Sting

71: AJ Styles, Antonio Cesaro, Bray Wyatt, Brutus Magnus, Cedric Alexander, Jey Uso, Kofi Kingston, Mason Ryan, Santino Marella, Seth Rollins, The Miz

70:

69: Brodus Clay, CIMA, Conor O'Brian, Jeff Hardy, Jerry Lawler, Jimmy Uso, Joey Ryan, Martin Stone, Scott Lost, Xavier Woods

68: Adam Cole, Bo Dallas, Brian Cage-Taylor, Caleb Konley, David Otunga, Derrick Bateman, Jake Carter, Jinder Mahal, Mike Mondo, Rick Victor, Soldier Ant, Taz, Willie Mack, Yoshi Tatsu

67: BxB Hulk, Joseph Mercury, Kenneth Cameron, Mike Bennett, Richie Steamboat, Scott Reed, Steve Austin

66: Charlie Haas, Dante Dash, Leakee, Johnny Goodtime, Marcus Anthony, Player Uno, Primo, Robbie E, Sakamoto

65: El Generico, Rhett Titus, Titus O'Neil

64: Alexander Rusev, Big E Langston, Corey Graves, Crimson, Darren Young, DT Porter, James Bronson, Jesse James, Johnny Curtis, JTG, Natalya Neidhart, Rey Mysterio, Ryo Jimmy Saito, Sean Waltman, Tara, Val Kabious

63: Eric Young, Grizzly Redwood, Harlem Bravado, Percy Watson, Peter Avalon, Ricardo Rodriguez, Sarah Stock, Uhaa Nation

62 : Abraham Washington, B-Boy, Camacho, John Laurinaitis, Kid Kash, Sin Cara, Sofia Cortez, Susumu Yokosuka, Tyson Kidd

61: Christopher Daniels, CJ Parker, Gamma, Robbie T

60: Andy Ridge, Mickie James

59: Aiden English, Brad Allen, Colin Cassady, Hulk Hogan, Kenny King, Leo Kruger, Matt Striker, Mr. Ernesto Osiris, Tamina Snuka, Winter

58: AR Fox, Austin Draven, Byron Saxton, Erik Rowan, Garrett Dylan, Trish Stratus

57: Alex Shelley, Briley Pierce, Hunico, Jason Jordan

56: Ahtu, Jay Lethal, Lancelot Bravado, Muhammed Lawal, Rocky Romero, Scorpio Sky, The Great Khali

55:

54: Caprice Coleman, Evan Bourne, Famous B, Gail Kim, Garrett Bischoff, Jigsaw, Matt Jackson, Mr. McMahon, Pinkie Sanchez, Tenille, Zema Ion

53: Dusty Rhodes, John Silver, Mike Dalton, Paige, Prince Nana, Samuray Del Sol

52:

51: Aksana, Brad Maddox, Eve Torres, Nick Rogers

50: Trent Barreta

49: Alex Reynolds, Audrey Marie, Bret Hart, Chris Sabin, Chuck Taylor, Ricochet

48: Jesse Sorensen, Layla El, Madison Rayne

47: Alex Silva, Bob Evans, Hector Guerrero, Kaitlyn, Nick Jackson

46: AJ Lee, Alicia Fox, Eli Cottonwood, PAC

45: Kazarian

44: Adam Mercer, Archibald Peck, Derek Foore, Genki Horiguchi

43:

42: Raquel Diaz, Shane Hagadorn

41: Johnny Yuma, Kelly Kelly, Miss Tessmacher

40:

39: Rosita

38: Mike Cruz

37: Eric Bischoff

36: Candice LeRae, Matt Taven, Naomi Night, Rosa Mendes, Zokre

35:

34: Masato Yoshino

33: Christina Von Eerie

32: Excalibur, Ray Rosas

31: Dragon Kid

30: Ryan Taylor

29: Chris Kadillak, Flip Kendrick, Louis Lyndon

28: Buggy

27: Velvet Sky

26: Hornswoggle

25: Stalker Ichikawa

24: Truth Martini

23:

22: Caylee Turner

21: Player Dos

18: Reby Sky

17:

16: Larry Dallas, Stephanie McMahon

15: Phoenix Star

14: Brooke Hogan

13:

12:

11: Paul Heyman, Summer Rae

10: Jim Cornette

9: Vickie Guerrero

8: Cameron Lynn

7: Theodore Long, Jeremy Borash

6: Linda McMahon

5:

4: Lilian Garcia

That BRAWL list just goes to show you how many wrestlers (especially in WWE) have overinflated stats.

Lower Randy Orton's Brawl to 79

Lower Matt Morgan's Brawl to 75

Lower Ezekiel Jackson's Brawl to 68

Lower Alex Riley's Brawl to 66

Lower Mason Ryan's Brawl to 60

Lower Robbie T's Brawl to 59

Lower Eve Torres' Brawl to 43

Lower Alicia Fox's Brawl to 41

And that's just at a glance.

[kdcastles]

I think there is a strong bias among those people who hate WWE and their sports entertainment type of wrestling. That leads to under-inflated stats. I point to the post above this one by Darnez FC.

[Darnez FC Forever]

I think there is a strong bias among those people who hate WWE and their sports entertainment type of wrestling. That leads to under-inflated stats. I point to the post above this one by Darnez FC.

If you can point me to any of the great brawls Ezekiel Jackson, Mason Ryan & Alex Riley have had (since that what stats 70+ mean, it means those guys are GREAT at that certain aspect of wrestling) then I'll gladly retract my statement.

[kdcastles]

I think there is a strong bias among those people who hate WWE and their sports entertainment type of wrestling. That leads to under-inflated stats. I point to the post above this one by Darnez FC.

If you can point me to any of the great brawls Ezekiel Jackson, Mason Ryan & Alex Riley have had (since that what stats 70+ mean, it means those guys are GREAT at that certain aspect of wrestling) then I'll gladly retract my statement.

Ehh, those I don't care about too much. But Orton is one of the best in-ring storytellers in the business. Just because he doesn't use 8 different types of kicks, 3 different elbows, and 2 different punches, doesn't mean he's not great in the ring? Leave his brawl where it is, and understand there is more to matches than just different moves strung together.

[Darnez FC Forever]

I think there is a strong bias among those people who hate WWE and their sports entertainment type of wrestling. That leads to under-inflated stats. I point to the post above this one by Darnez FC.

If you can point me to any of the great brawls Ezekiel Jackson, Mason Ryan & Alex Riley have had (since that what stats 70+ mean, it means those guys are GREAT at that certain aspect of wrestling) then I'll gladly retract my statement.

Ehh, those I don't care about too much. But Orton is one of the best in-ring storytellers in the business. Just because he doesn't use 8 different types of kicks, 3 different elbows, and 2 different punches, doesn't mean he's not great in the ring? Leave his brawl where it is, and understand there is more to matches than just different moves strung together.

79 puts Orton on the level of John Cena, Chris Jericho & CM Punk - I don't see Orton as a better brawler than those three, and besides Cena I don't think Punk or Jericho need their brawl stat raised.

I'd raise Cena to 81 and lower Orton to 79.

[kdcastles]

I think there is a strong bias among those people who hate WWE and their sports entertainment type of wrestling. That leads to under-inflated stats. I point to the post above this one by Darnez FC.

If you can point me to any of the great brawls Ezekiel Jackson, Mason Ryan & Alex Riley have had (since that what stats 70+ mean, it means those guys are GREAT at that certain aspect of wrestling) then I'll gladly retract my statement.

Ehh, those I don't care about too much. But Orton is one of the best in-ring storytellers in the business. Just because he doesn't use 8 different types of kicks, 3 different elbows, and 2 different punches, doesn't mean he's not great in the ring? Leave his brawl where it is, and understand there is more to matches than just different moves strung together.

79 puts Orton on the level of John Cena, Chris Jericho & CM Punk - I don't see Orton as a better brawler than those three, and besides Cena I don't think Punk or Jericho need their brawl stat raised.

I'd raise Cena to 81 and lower Orton to 79.

I fully believe that Orton is better than Cena, and I'm not a Cena hater. I like the guy, but his offense is not as believable as Orton's. Other than that, they are very similar, I agree with you on that. Because of the believability factor I put Orton over Cena.

BTW, I hope I'm not coming off as an arrogant asshole. I have been told I do when I get into conversations like this and I'm trying not to.

[Darnez FC Forever]

I think there is a strong bias among those people who hate WWE and their sports entertainment type of wrestling. That leads to under-inflated stats. I point to the post above this one by Darnez FC.

If you can point me to any of the great brawls Ezekiel Jackson, Mason Ryan & Alex Riley have had (since that what stats 70+ mean, it means those guys are GREAT at that certain aspect of wrestling) then I'll gladly retract my statement.

Ehh, those I don't care about too much. But Orton is one of the best in-ring storytellers in the business. Just because he doesn't use 8 different types of kicks, 3 different elbows, and 2 different punches, doesn't mean he's not great in the ring? Leave his brawl where it is, and understand there is more to matches than just different moves strung together.

79 puts Orton on the level of John Cena, Chris Jericho & CM Punk - I don't see Orton as a better brawler than those three, and besides Cena I don't think Punk or Jericho need their brawl stat raised.

I'd raise Cena to 81 and lower Orton to 79.

I fully believe that Orton is better than Cena, and I'm not a Cena hater. I like the guy, but his offense is not as believable as Orton's. Other than that, they are very similar, I agree with you on that. Because of the believability factor I put Orton over Cena.

BTW, I hope I'm not coming off as an arrogant asshole. I have been told I do when I get into conversations like this and I'm trying not to.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree then and let Bill decide.

And no you're not, don't worry.

[Lineker]

Rename Derrick Bateman's finisher to 'The Heinous Pain Train To Loser Town Special Exploder-Plex-Driver-Splash 68'.

Not even kidding.

[hippie]

add PAC and Johnny Gargano to WWE.