EWR 2012 Stats Update: July ***PLEASE USE SPOILER TAGS***

[notatardis]

As much as I love them, I think the indy guys in general are a bit overrated in many facets attribute wise, as was touched on last month. Same thing with some of the older guys. I sincerely doubt Ken Shamrock is now at 48 as good of a wrestler as Michael Elgin. It's a bit ridiculously easy to put on pretty good matches at will with just about any combination of people, and that's due to the universal stat inflation

I also think some wrestlers such as Dolph get these biased type bumps, notably his charisma. He's never stood out to me. I like the idea of a democratic process in which attributes are suggested, but when we get to people only 1 or 2 people in the process know, that allows for things to become unbalanced.

Like I said, I'm holding off on adjusting ANY stats of ANY sort until July 20th. That gives everyone who wants to participate adequate time to suggest a "universal overhaul" as was suggested last month: http://www.ewbattleg...dpost&p=2651746

Until the 20th, all's I'm focusing on is non stats related stuff, such as adding tag teams, name changes, etc... I'll likley be working on more "housecleaning" too... But, if you have the July update, you know exactly where everyones' stats currently sit, so the best time to debate them and work on adjusting them on an overall basis is now.

Long story short, I can only go off of what everyone gives me... If there is a disagreement along the way, I usually end up putting the final number in the middle of the two suggested. But, if only a couple people are voicing their opinions, chances are, the game data is going to skew towards their opinions.

The best way, IMO, to "balance everything out" is to get more people voicing their opinion... But, you can't force people to participate.

It's also a helluva lot easier to say "the indy guys are overrated" than to go through who you feel is overrated in what areas and suggest changes to those areas.

-Bill

Another reason I think some guys come off as "overrated" is due to them not really being touched in the data.

Take Ken Shamrock for instance... Since he hasn't been around in a while, chances are, his stats are still where they were when he was at least semi-actve. Now that he's older, his stats should (at least in theory) go down some, along with his overness. Unfortunately, when workers like this don't get mentioned in our monthly threads, they don't get messed with in the game and end up keeping the same stats throughout. So, when we look at July, 2012, he has similar, if not the same stats he had back in 2010 (and maybe even earlier for some workers).

The easiest and best way to combat this sort of thing is, when you see something in the current data that yu think needs adjusting... POST ABOUT IT! At least then, it puts that "on the radar" for people to have a discussion about. If people see something but don't post, chances are, most won't even notice it.

Being as specific as possible when suggesting changes is a big plus as well... if you can say "Lower worker X's overness to 73," it's a lot better than saying "I think worker X's overness is too high" or "Worker X should have his overness dropped 2-5 points." People might disagree and the change might not always go as you suggest, but at least it brings the situation to everyone's attention.

-Bill

Absolutely, and just in case it wasn't clear, I have no "issues" with you, or anyone specifically, it's just a natural flaw in the process I'm seeing brought up (more than once actually, which is why I'm more vocal about it now) and bringing it up for discussion as you just said. It wouldn't be a bad idea perhaps to take note of aging off the radar wrestlers and keep track of them to keep their stats up to date.

I think with stat changes, something we all could keep in mind is a closest comp type thing in which ones looks at the people at or near that number. In other words, the relativity and absoluteness of a number.

[Guest Team 720]

I think there is a strong bias among those people who hate WWE and their sports entertainment type of wrestling. That leads to under-inflated stats. I point to the post above this one by Darnez FC.

If you can point me to any of the great brawls Ezekiel Jackson, Mason Ryan & Alex Riley have had (since that what stats 70+ mean, it means those guys are GREAT at that certain aspect of wrestling) then I'll gladly retract my statement.

Ehh, those I don't care about too much. But Orton is one of the best in-ring storytellers in the business. Just because he doesn't use 8 different types of kicks, 3 different elbows, and 2 different punches, doesn't mean he's not great in the ring? Leave his brawl where it is, and understand there is more to matches than just different moves strung together.

79 puts Orton on the level of John Cena, Chris Jericho & CM Punk - I don't see Orton as a better brawler than those three, and besides Cena I don't think Punk or Jericho need their brawl stat raised.

I'd raise Cena to 81 and lower Orton to 79.

I fully believe that Orton is better than Cena, and I'm not a Cena hater. I like the guy, but his offense is not as believable as Orton's. Other than that, they are very similar, I agree with you on that. Because of the believability factor I put Orton over Cena.

BTW, I hope I'm not coming off as an arrogant asshole. I have been told I do when I get into conversations like this and I'm trying not to.

Personally Cena is better than Orton in brawls and psychology. The problem with Orton is he is he does not brawl too well. I think Cena is more believable than Orton is in a brawl.

add PAC and Johnny Gargano to WWE.

PAC is indeed WWE bound. Gargano is still rumored. I am sure that it will be better to tell down the road.

[notatardis]

I also do like conker's idea that you linked to, perhaps it could even be expanded on.

[conker8]

First, we weren't agree about raising Undertaker's brawl to 86?

What do you think about Kevin Steen? IMO his Brawl could be raise to 85.

Brawl:

74: Al Snow, Justin Gabriel, Ryback, Zack Ryder

73: Curt Hawkins, Damien Sandow (??), Epico, Ezekiel Jackson, Heath Slater, Tyler Reks

72: Alex Riley, Gunner

71: Mason Ryan

I believe all these guys should have brawl decrease.

Al Snow: I don't know when the last time he wrestled...

Justin Gabriel and Heath Slater: decrease to 71.

Ryback : he is just doing squashes and his stats had raised - 70 IMO.

Agree with Darnez about Riley, Ryan and Jackson.

Hawkins and Reks - don't know if they demonstrate good brawls in Superstars but I guess they could go under 70's.

Lower Gunner to 66.

Zack Ryder : his brawls against Kane weren't great. Lower him to 70/71.

Also, Kazarian at 45 seems really low...

Edited July 9, 2012 by conker8

[gthame1992]

First, we weren't agree about raising Undertaker's brawl to 86?

What do you think about Kevin Steen? IMO his Brawl could be raise to 85.

Brawl:

74: Al Snow, Justin Gabriel, Ryback, Zack Ryder

73: Curt Hawkins, Damien Sandow (??), Epico, Ezekiel Jackson, Heath Slater, Tyler Reks

72: Alex Riley, Gunner

71: Mason Ryan

I believe all these guys should have brawl decrease.

Al Snow: I don't know when the last time he wrestled...

Justin Gabriel and Heath Slater: decrease to 71.

Ryback : he is just doing squashes and his stats had raised - 70 IMO.

Agree with Darnez about Riley, Ryan and Jackson.

Hawkins and Reks - don't know if they demonstrate good brawls in Superstars but I guess they could go under 70's.

Lower Gunner to 66.

Zack Ryder : his brawls against Kane weren't great. Lower him to 70/71.

Also, Kazarian at 45 seems really low...

I believe the last time Al Snow wrestled, was at the first Hardcore Justice in 2010.

[Evandakewlgui]

Remove Jack Bonza, QT Marshall, Dragonfly and Vin Gerard from CHIKARA.

Bonza and Marshall have only made one appearance in CHIKARA to my knowledge, Dragonfly is semi-retired and Vin Gerard lost a loser leaves CHIKARA match back in February.

Dragonfly is active with Wrestling Is Fun, Chikara's unofficial developmental promotion. Jack Bonza and QT also wrestled there. Not sure if that defends anything or not but that maybe the logic...

Wrestling is fun has shows every couple of months, i don't think it's enough to warrant keeping him part of the active roster. QT and Jack Bonza only wrestled one match for the promotion, and that certainly doesn't warrant them being on the roster.

[mikevandam]

From Kevin Kleinrocks FB:

Congrats to another WSX star for being signed to WWE. Sara Del Ray FINALLY gets the shot she's deserved for so long. Another WSX Alumni to the top.

Keep it as a maybe for now

[Mancuerda]

I would personally put Orton and Cena around 80 each. Cena might deserve to be ONE point higher, but really I'd just put them at the same.

[Y2JFan111]

Apparently WWE has signed Sara Del Ray, PAC, Johnny Gargano and Matt Taven. Possibly add them to WWE developmental deals or wait it out and see what happens with each wrestler

Add Taeler Hendrix to a developmental deal in TNA

I have heard recently that Antonio Cesaro and Sara Del Ray are dating, possibly add a love relationship?

Edited July 9, 2012 by Y2JFan111

[conker8]

Charisma ladder

100: Steve Austin, The Rock

99: CM Punk

98: Ric Flair

97: Chris Jericho

96: Edge, John Cena, Kurt Angle, Mick Foley, Mr. McMahon, Roddy Piper, Triple H

95:

94: Dusty Rhodes, Hulk Hogan, James Mitchell, Jim Cornette, Raven, Shawn Michaels

93: Christian, Kevin Nash, Steve Corino

92: John Bradshaw Layfield, Mr. Anderson, The Miz

91: Booker T, Jerry Lawler, Paul Heyman, Shane McMahon, Sting, William Regal

90: DDP, Don Callis

89: Bully Ray, Dean Ambrose, Eddie Kingston, Goldust, James Storm, R-Truth, Santino Marella

88: Alberto Del Rio, American Kickboxer II, Bob Sapp, Colt Cabana, Eric Bischoff, Jason Sensation, Keiji Mutoh, Shane Douglas, Sid Fabulous

87: Big Show, Cody Rhodes, D'Angelo Dinero, Dolph Ziggler, Fabulous Frederik, Jesse James, Johnny Fairplay, Kassius Ohno, Matt Striker, New Jack, Randy Orton, The Sandman

86: Bobby Roode, Chuck Taylor, Danny Bonaduce, Delirious, Joel Gertner, Kane, Masahiro Chono, MVP, Sami Callihan, Scott Parker, Taz, Terry Funk, Theodore Long, Ultramantis Black, Wade Barrett, Zack Ryder

85: Bob Backlund, Ernest Miller, Lisa Moretti, Quinson Valentino

84: Al Snow, Christopher Daniels, Derrick Bateman, Kevin Steen, Sheamus

83: AJ Lee, Alex Riley, Austin Aries, Daniel Bryan, Drew McIntyre, Eric Young, Jay Lethal, Jeff Jarrett, Karen Jarrett, Undertaker, Velvet Sky, Vickie Guerrero

82: Alex Shelley, Jack Swagger, Jay Briscoe, Jimmy Jacobs, John Laurinaitis, Layla El

81: AJ Styles, Bret Hart, Damien Sandow, Excalibur, Kofi Kingston, Prince Nana, Ricardo Rodriguez, Rob Van Dam, Samoa Joe, Stephanie McMahon, Trish Stratus

80:

79: Brutus Magnus, David Otunga, Hornswoggle, Jinder Mahal, Lilian Garcia, Nigel McGuinness, Rey Mysterio, Soldier Ant

78: Beth Phoenix, Bray Wyatt, Brodus Clay, Davey Richards, El Generico, Mark Henry, Mickie James, Pinkie Sanchez

77: Akira Tozawa, Antonio Cesaro, Archibald Peck, Devon, Jeremy Borash, JTG, Matt Morgan, Mark Briscoe, Nick Rogers, Xavier Woods

76: Abyss, Adam Cole, Angelina Love, Brock Lesnar, BxB Hulk, Byron Saxton, Chris Sabin, Christy Hemme, Conor O'Brian, Jake Manning, Joey Ryan, Johnny Gargano, Kenny King, Low Ki, Madison Rayne, Percy Watson, Player Uno, Rich Swann, Rhino, Sean Waltman

75: Kazarian

74: Aiden English, Charlie Haas, Curt Hawkins, Douglas Williams, Eve Torres, Gunner, Hunico, Jeff Hardy, Johnny Curtis, Kid Kash, Maria Kanellis, Maxine, Shane Hagadorn, Sin Cara, Stalker Ichikawa, Tara, Ted DiBiase, Truth Martini, Zema Ion

73: Abraham Washington, Brad Maddox, Brooke Hogan, Corey Graves, Joseph Mercury, Mike Mondo, Trent Barreta

72: Caprice Coleman, CJ Parker, Ezekiel Jackson, Gail Kim, Hector Guerrero, Kelly Kelly, Primo, Robbie E, Shelton Benjamin, Winter

71: Bo Dallas, Bob Evans, Crimson, Genki Horiguchi, Raquel Diaz, Roderick Strong

70: Rhett Titus, YAMATO

69: Aksana, Alicia Fox, Heath Slater, Paige, Ray Rosas, Reby Sky, Ryback, Sabu

68: Arik Cannon, Grizzly Redwood, Hernandez, Johnny Goodtime, Mike Bennett, Miss Tessmacher, Naomi Night, Peter Avalon, Seth Rollins

67: Adam Mercer, Alex Reynolds, CIMA, Darren Young, Gamma, Garett Bischoff, Jake Carter, Jey Uso, Jimmy Uso, Larry Dallas, Mason Ryan, So Cal Val

66: Cedric Alexander, Colin Cassady, Famous B, Finlay, Kharma, Sarah Stock, Scorpio Sky, Scott Lost, Tensai, Tommaso Ciampa, Tyson Kidd

65:

64: Caleb Konley, Candice LeRae, Dixie Carter, Justin Gabriel, Leakee, Leo Kruger, Michael McGillicutty, ODB, Titus O'Neil

63: Cameron Lynn, Eddie Edwards, Epico, Johnny Yuma, Jon Davis, TJ Perkins, Willie Mack

62: Brian Cage-Taylor, Dante Dash, Kaitlyn, Kyle Matthews, Mia Yim, Muhammed Lawal, Ricochet

61: Ahtu, Alexander Rusev, Audrey Marie, John Silver, Kenneth Cameron, Marcus Anthony, Masato Yoshino, Player Dos, Richie Steamboat, Rick Victor, Super Dragon, Tyler Reks

60:

59: B-Boy, Bobby Fish, Brad Allen, Briley Pierce, Brodie Lee, Eli Cottonwood, Garrett Dylan, Louis Lyndon, Matt Jackson, Nick Jackson, Robbie T, Rosita, Sofia Cortez, Susumu Yokosuka, Tamina Snuka, Uhaa Nation, Val Kabious

58: AR Fox, Matt Taven, Mr. Ernesto Osiris, Rosa Mendes, Tenille

57: Caylee Turner, Christina Von Eerie, Ricky Reyes, The Great Khali, Veda Scott

56: Camacho, Evan Bourne, Jigsaw, Kyle O'Reilly, PAC, Rocky Romero, Scott Reed

55: SHINGO

54: Alex Silva, Jason Jordan, Jesse Sorensen, Michael Elgin, Ryo Jimmy Saito, Sakamoto, Samuray Del Sol, Yoshi Tatsu

52: James Bronson, Mike Cruz, Summer Rae

51: Big E Langston, Erick Rowan

50: Andy Ridge, Naruki Doi

49: Zokre

48: Buggy, Chris Kadillak, Ryan Taylor

47: Dragon Kid, Mike Dalton

46:

45: Martin Stone

44: Linda McMahon

43: Flip Kendrick

42:

41:

40:

39: Harlem Bravado

38: Derek Foore, DT Porter

37:

36: Lancelot Bravado, Masaaki Mochizuki

28: Phoenix Star

Cena at 81 and Orton at 80 is good for me.

Edited July 9, 2012 by conker8

[KrisClassic]

First, we weren't agree about raising Undertaker's brawl to 86?

What do you think about Kevin Steen? IMO his Brawl could be raise to 85.

Brawl:

74: Al Snow, Justin Gabriel, Ryback, Zack Ryder

73: Curt Hawkins, Damien Sandow (??), Epico, Ezekiel Jackson, Heath Slater, Tyler Reks

72: Alex Riley, Gunner

71: Mason Ryan

I believe all these guys should have brawl decrease.

Al Snow: I don't know when the last time he wrestled...

Justin Gabriel and Heath Slater: decrease to 71.

Ryback : he is just doing squashes and his stats had raised - 70 IMO.

Agree with Darnez about Riley, Ryan and Jackson.

Hawkins and Reks - don't know if they demonstrate good brawls in Superstars but I guess they could go under 70's.

Lower Gunner to 66.

Zack Ryder : his brawls against Kane weren't great. Lower him to 70/71.

Also, Kazarian at 45 seems really low...

I believe the last time Al Snow wrestled, was at the first Hardcore Justice in 2010.

Al Snow still wrestles weekly for the indies. He's fine as is. I would leave Zack Ryder as is, lower Justin Gabriel to 73, Ryback to 73, Curt Hawkins to 71, Damien Sandow leave as is, Ezekiel Jackson to 71, Heath Slater leave as is, Mason Ryan to 66, Alex Riley to 68, Gunner leave as is.

To answer an earlier question, Brodus Clay's speed is at 31 for all of the speed-related things he does (crossbodies, etc).

I would also leave Eve Mendes, Robbie T, and Alicia Fox's brawl as is. Randy Orton at 82 brawl and John Cena at 80.

-Raise Sweet Saraya's brawl to 49, speed to 23, and stiffness to 47. Check Diva. Uncheck Menacing.

-Raise Allysin Kay's brawl to 42, stiffness to 42, selling to 59, and charisma to 58.

-Raise Courtney Rush's brawl to 44, stiffness to 41, and charisma to 64.

Edited July 9, 2012 by KrisClassic

[Guest Team 720]

I bolded my changes to the ladders for brawl and charisma

BRAWL

87: Finlay

86: Edge, Samoa Joe

85: Bully Ray,

84: Davey Richards, Sami Callihan,

83: Abyss, Kassius Ohno

82: Daniel Bryan, Sheamus, Roderick Strong

81: Brock Lesnar, James Storm, John Cena, Kevin Steen, Matt Morgan, Rhino , The Undertaker

80: Kurt Angle, Randy Orton, Wade Barrett

79: Chris Jericho, Christian, CM Punk, Eddie Edwards, Hernandez, Jay Briscoe, Kharma, Low Ki, Rob Van Dam, William Regal

78: Bobby Roode, Cody Rhodes, Dolph Ziggler, Mark Briscoe, Steve Corino, Super Dragon, Tensai

77: Jeff Jarrett, SHINGO, Jimmy Jacobs, Triple H

76: Beth Phoenix, Bobby Fish, Booker T, Kane, Kyle O'Reilly, Mick Foley, Mr. Anderson, ODB

75:

74: Al Snow, Big Show, Brodie Lee, Dean Ambrose, Delirious, Douglas Williams, Jon Davis, Michael Elgin, R-Truth, Ryback, Ted DiBiase, The Rock, Tommaso Ciampa, Zack Ryder

73: Alberto Del Rio, Curt Hawkins, D'Angelo Dinero, Devon, Epico, Ezekiel Jackson, Kevin Nash, Masaaki Mochizuki, Michael McGillicutty, Nigel McGuinness, Ricky Reyes, Sabu, Shelton Benjamin, TJ Perkins, Tyler Reks, YAMATO

72: Alex Riley, Austin Aries, Gunner, Jake Manning, Kyle Matthews, Mark Henry, Ric Flair, Sting

71: AJ Styles, Arik Cannon, Cedric Alexander, Jey Uso, Kofi Kingston, , Santino Marella, Seth Rollins, Shawn Michaels, The Miz

70: Bray Wyatt, Brodus Clay,

69: Antonio Cesaro, Jeff Hardy, Jerry Lawler, Jimmy Uso, Joey Ryan, Martin Stone, Scott Lost, Xavier Woods

68: Adam Cole, Akira Tozawa, Bo Dallas, Brian Cage-Taylor, Brutus Magnus, Caleb Konley, David Otunga, Derrick Bateman, Jake Carter, Jinder Mahal, Johnny Gargano, Mike Mondo, Rick Victor, Soldier Ant, Taz, Willie Mack, Yoshi Tatsu

67: Crimson, Joseph Mercury, Kenneth Cameron, Mike Bennett, Richie Steamboat, Scott Reed, Steve Austin

66: Conor O'Brian, Dante Dash, Leakee, Marcus Anthony, Player Uno, Primo, Robbie E, Sakamoto

65: B-Boy, El Generico, Rhett Titus, Titus O'Neil

64: Alexander Rusev, Big E Langston, BxB Hulk, Corey Graves, Damien Sandow, Darren Young, DT Porter, Jack Swagger, James Bronson, Jesse James, Johnny Curtis, JTG, Natalya Neidhart, Naruki Doi, Ryo Jimmy Saito, Sean Waltman, Tara, Val Kabious

63: Eric Young, Grizzly Redwood, Harlem Bravado, Heath Slater, Kid Kash, Percy Watson, Peter Avalon, Ricardo Rodriguez, Sarah Stock, Uhaa Nation

62: Camacho, Charlie Haas, John Laurinaitis, Justin Gabriel, Sofia Cortez, Tyson Kidd

61: Christopher Daniels, CJ Parker, Dusty Rhodes, Drew McIntyre, Mason Ryan, Rich Swann, Robbie T

60: Andy Ridge, CIMA, Gamma, Rey Mysterio

59: Aiden English, Brad Allen, Colin Cassady, Hulk Hogan, Hunico, Kenny King, Leo Kruger, Matt Striker, Mr. Ernesto Osiris, Muhammed Lawal, Susumu Yokosuka, Tamina Snuka, Winter

58: AR Fox, Austin Draven, Byron Saxton, Erik Rowan, Garrett Dylan, Trish Stratus

57: Abraham Washington, Alex Shelley, Briley Pierce, Jason Jordan, Johnny Goodtime, Mr. McMahon

56: Ahtu, Jigsaw, Lancelot Bravado, Mickie James, Rocky Romero, Scorpio Sky, The Great Khali

55: Sin Cara

54: Caprice Coleman, Evan Bourne, Famous B, Gail Kim, Garrett Bischoff, Matt Jackson, Pinkie Sanchez, Tenille, Zema Ion

53: John Silver, Mike Dalton, Paige, Prince Nana, Samuray Del Sol

52: Jay Lethal, PAC

51: Brad Maddox, Eli Cottonwood, Nick Rogers, Nick Jackson, Ricochet

50: Kazarian, Trent Barreta

49: Alex Reynolds, Audrey Marie, Bret Hart, Chris Sabin, Chuck Taylor

48: Jesse Sorensen, Layla El, Madison Rayne

47: AJ Lee, Alex Silva, Bob Evans, Hector Guerrero, Kaitlyn,

46: Alicia Fox

45: Eve Torres

44: Adam Mercer, Archibald Peck, Derek Foore, Genki Horiguchi

43: Aksana

42: Raquel Diaz, Shane Hagadorn

41: Johnny Yuma, Kelly Kelly, Miss Tessmacher

40 :Rosa Mendes

39: Rosita

38:

37: Eric Bischoff

36: Candice LeRae, Matt Taven, Naomi Night,

35: Masato Yoshino

34: Mike Cruz

33: Christina Von Eerie

32: Excalibur, Ray Rosas

31: Dragon Kid, Flip Kendrick

30: Ryan Taylor

29: Chris Kadillak, Louis Lyndon

28: Buggy, Zokre

27: Velvet Sky

26: Hornswoggle

25:

24: Truth Martini

23: Phoenix Star

22: Caylee Turner, Stalker Ichikawa

21: Player Dos

18: Reby Sky

17:

16: Larry Dallas, Stephanie McMahon

15:

14:

13:

12:

11: Paul Heyman, Summer Rae

10: Jim Cornette, Theodore Long

9: Vickie Guerrero

8: Cameron Lynn

7: Jeremy Borash

6: Linda McMahon

5:

4: Brooke Hogan, Lilian Garcia

CHARISMA

100: Steve Austin, The Rock

99: CM Punk

98: Chris Jericho, Edge

97: John Cena, Mick Foley, Mr. McMahon, Roddy Piper, Triple H

96: Kurt Angle,

95: Shawn Michaels

94: Dusty Rhodes, Hulk Hogan, James Mitchell, Jim Cornette, Raven, Ric Flair

93: Christian, Kevin Nash, Steve Corino

92: John Bradshaw Layfield, Mr. Anderson, The Miz

91: Booker T, Jerry Lawler, Paul Heyman, Shane McMahon, Sting, William Regal

90: DDP, Don Callis

89: Bully Ray, Goldust, James Storm, R-Truth, Santino Marella

88: Alberto Del Rio, American Kickboxer II, Bob Sapp, Colt Cabana, Eric Bischoff, Keiji Mutoh, Shane Douglas, Sid Fabulous

87: Big Show, Cody Rhodes, D'Angelo Dinero, Dean Ambrose, Dolph Ziggler, Eddie Kingston, Fabulous Frederik, Jesse James, Johnny Fairplay, Kassius Ohno, Matt Striker, New Jack, Randy Orton, The Sandman

86: AJ Lee, Bobby Roode, Chuck Taylor, Danny Bonaduce, Delirious, Joel Gertner, Kane, Masahiro Chono, MVP, Sami Callihan, Scott Parker, Taz, Terry Funk, Theodore Long, Ultramantis Black, Wade Barrett, Zack Ryder

85: Austin Aries, Bob Backlund, Daniel Bryan, Ernest Miller, Jeff Jarrett, Quinson Valentino

84: Archibald Peck, Christopher Daniels, Derrick Bateman, Kevin Steen, Sheamus

83: AJ Styles, Al Snow, Drew McIntyre, Eric Young, Jason Sensation, Jay Lethal, Karen Jarrett, Undertaker, Velvet Sky, Vickie Guerrero

82: Alex Shelley, Alex Riley, Antonio Cesaro, Jay Briscoe, Jimmy Jacobs, John Laurinaitis, Layla El

81: Bret Hart, Damien Sandow, Devon, Excalibur, Kofi Kingston, Prince Nana, Ricardo Rodriguez, Rob Van Dam, Samoa Joe, Stephanie McMahon, Trish Stratus

80: Bray Wyatt, Jack Swagger, Lisa Moretti

79: Brutus Magnus, David Otunga, Hornswoggle, Jinder Mahal, Lilian Garcia, Nigel McGuinness, Rey Mysterio, Soldier Ant

78: Beth Phoenix, Brodus Clay, Davey Richards, El Generico, Mark Henry, Mickie James, Pinkie Sanchez

77: Akira Tozawa, Jeremy Borash, JTG, Matt Morgan, Mark Briscoe, Nick Rogers, Xavier Woods

76: Abyss, Adam Cole, Angelina Love, Brock Lesnar, BxB Hulk, Byron Saxton, Chris Sabin, Christy Hemme, Conor O'Brian, Jake Manning, Joey Ryan, Johnny Gargano, Kenny King, Madison Rayne, Player Uno, Rich Swann, Rhino, Sean Waltman, Truth Martini

75: Kazarian

74: Aiden English, Charlie Haas, Curt Hawkins, Douglas Williams, Eve Torres, Gunner, Hunico, Jeff Hardy, Johnny Curtis, Kid Kash, Low Ki, Maria Kanellis, Maxine, Shane Hagadorn, Sin Cara, Stalker Ichikawa, Tara, Ted DiBiase, Willie Mack, Zema Ion

73: Abraham Washington, Brad Maddox, Brooke Hogan, Corey Graves, Darren Young, Joseph Mercury, Mike Mondo, Percy Watson, Rhett Titus

72: Caprice Coleman, CJ Parker, Ezekiel Jackson, Gail Kim, Hector Guerrero, Kelly Kelly, Primo, Robbie E, Shelton Benjamin, Winter

71: Bob Evans, Crimson, Genki Horiguchi, Raquel Diaz, Roderick Strong

70: Heath Slater, Trent Barreta

69: Aksana, Alicia Fox, Bo Dallas, Paige, Ray Rosas, Reby Sky, Sabu

68: Arik Cannon, Gamma, Grizzly Redwood, Hernandez, Johnny Goodtime, Mike Bennett, Miss Tessmacher, Naomi Night, Peter Avalon, Seth Rollins, Titus O'Neil, YAMATO

67: Adam Mercer, Alex Reynolds, CIMA, Garett Bischoff, Jake Carter, Jey Uso, Jimmy Uso, Larry Dallas, Ryback, So Cal Val

66: Cedric Alexander, Colin Cassady, Famous B, Finlay, Kharma, Sarah Stock, Scorpio Sky, Scott Lost, Tensai, Tommaso Ciampa, Tyson Kidd

65: Mason Ryan

64: Caleb Konley, Candice LeRae, Dixie Carter, Justin Gabriel, Leakee, Leo Kruger, Michael McGillicutty, ODB,

63: Cameron Lynn, Eddie Edwards, Epico, Johnny Yuma, Jon Davis, Rocky Romero, TJ Perkins

62: Brian Cage-Taylor, Dante Dash, Kaitlyn, Kyle Matthews, Mia Yim, Muhammed Lawal, Ricochet

61: Ahtu, Alexander Rusev, Audrey Marie, John Silver, Kenneth Cameron, Marcus Anthony, Masato Yoshino, Player Dos, Richie Steamboat, Rick Victor, Super Dragon, Tyler Reks

60: Mike Dalton

59: B-Boy, Bobby Fish, Brad Allen, Briley Pierce, Brodie Lee, Eli Cottonwood, Garrett Dylan, Louis Lyndon, Matt Jackson, Nick Jackson, Robbie T, Rosita, Sofia Cortez, Susumu Yokosuka, Tamina Snuka, Uhaa Nation, Val Kabious

58: AR Fox, Matt Taven, Mr. Ernesto Osiris, Rosa Mendes, Tenille

57: Caylee Turner, Christina Von Eerie, Ricky Reyes, SHINGO, The Great Khali, Veda Scott

56: Camacho, Evan Bourne, Jigsaw, Kyle O'Reilly, PAC, Scott Reed

55:

54: Alex Silva, Jason Jordan, Jesse Sorensen, Michael Elgin, Ryo Jimmy Saito, Sakamoto, Samuray Del Sol, Yoshi Tatsu

52: James Bronson, Mike Cruz, Summer Rae

51: Big E Langston, Erick Rowan

50: Andy Ridge, Naruki Doi

49: Zokre

48: Buggy, Chris Kadillak, Ryan Taylor

47: Dragon Kid,

46: Phoenix Star

45: Martin Stone

44: Linda McMahon

43: Flip Kendrick

42:

41:

40:

39: Harlem Bravado

38: Derek Foore, DT Porter

37:

36: Lancelot Bravado, Masaaki Mochizuki

Cena at 81 and Orton at 80 is good for me.

As for Brodus' speed, that could be lowered a little, perhaps to 28. He doesn't even do the high cross body anymore...

Edit; Shimmer Spoiler:

To tie in with Death Ray's WWE signing, she and Courtney Rush dropped the SHIMMER tag titles to the Canadian NINJAS at an NCW show this past weekend.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Team 720

[KrisClassic]

In response to the post above me, my opinions on brawl:

SHINGO - Leave as is. Great at strong style.

Jimmy Jacobs - Leave as is. Became famous for his terrific hardcore/deathmatches.

Undertaker - 86. He may not wrestle often, but when he does (for the past several years in a row) he has stolen the show. Why lower it?

Triple H - 82 (See above.)

Susumu Yokosuka - Leave as is.

Heath Slater - I think he is a terrific brawler and should at least have early-to-mid 70s.

Just Gabriel - Ditto to Heath Slater.

Naruki Doi - Leave as is. Very solid brawler.

Damien Sandow - Leave as is.

Jack Swagger - At least mid 70s.

Rich Swann - At least 73. He's been in some great brawls in CZW and DG (as well as DG-USA), and other assorted indies.

Akira Tozawa - Leave as is. There's a reason he's become so critically acclaimed in the past 1-2 years.

Arik Cannon - Leave as is. Always been a solid indy hand.

Shawn Michaels - He may have been away for a few years but I wouldn't touch his brawl.

William Regal - Leave as is. Still one of the best in the sport today.

On charisma:

Al Snow - Leave as is.

Dean Ambrose - Ditto. He's been cutting critically acclaimed promos for the past year and they deserve the 89 rating.

Eddie Kingston - The best promo guy on the indies IMO. Leave as is.

Jason Sensation - 85

Jack Swagger - 82

Percy Watson - 76

Heath Slater - 75

Ric Flair - Still one of the all-time bests. Leave as is at 98.

Edited July 9, 2012 by KrisClassic

[Bill1996]

-Raise Sweet Saraya's brawl to 49, speed to 23, and stiffness to 47. Check Diva. Uncheck Menacing.

From personal experience, I have to disagree with the bolded... Even at intermission of the March Shimmer taping, when workers are out of character, People were afraid to approach her...

My bet is, anyone that hs seen her in person would agree that she qualifies as menacing, even out of character.

-Bill

[Guest Team 720]

In response to the post above me, my opinions on brawl:

SHINGO - Leave as is. Great at strong style.

Jimmy Jacobs - Leave as is. Became famous for his terrific hardcore/deathmatches.

Undertaker - 86. He may not wrestle often, but when he does (for the past several years in a row) he has stolen the show. Why lower it?

Triple H - 82 (See above.)

Susumu Yokosuka - Leave as is.

Heath Slater - I think he is a terrific brawler and should at least have early-to-mid 70s.

Just Gabriel - Ditto to Heath Slater.

Naruki Doi - Leave as is. Very solid brawler.

Damien Sandow - Leave as is.

Jack Swagger - At least mid 70s.

Rich Swann - At least 73. He's been in some great brawls in CZW and DG (as well as DG-USA), and other assorted indies.

Akira Tozawa - Leave as is. There's a reason he's become so critically acclaimed in the past 1-2 years.

Arik Cannon - Leave as is. Always been a solid indy hand.

Shawn Michaels - He may have been away for a few years but I wouldn't touch his brawl.

William Regal - Leave as is. Still one of the best in the sport today.

On charisma:

Al Snow - Leave as is.

Dean Ambrose - Ditto. He's been cutting critically acclaimed promos for the past year and they deserve the 89 rating.

Eddie Kingston - The best promo guy on the indies IMO. Leave as is.

Jason Sensation - 85

Jack Swagger - 82

Percy Watson - 76

Heath Slater - 75

Ric Flair - Still one of the all-time bests. Leave as is at 98.

BS flag thrown.

Undertaker, just watch his Kane feud in 2010 and Mania XXVII, that match was meh. Mania XXVIII was good but is it fair to say a guy wrestled once a year to have such as high of a stat?

Swann is not the best brawler from what I've seen in Dragon Gate in Japan. To me he is way more of a flyer than a brawler. Same with Susumu, Naruki and Akira who do not brawl well enough to warrant their current stats.

Regal was more known for matwork than brawl. He is decent as a brawler but NOT one of the best at it.

Flair is not as charismatic anymore and on par with Hogan now.

Heath Slater is ANNOYING and not charasmatic.

I don't see Ambrose and Eddie on the same level as others that they would be on their current stats, same with Percy and Swagger.

[notatardis]

I didn't comment on the Taker bit last time because it had mostly passed, but I don't think he needs a raise. I found both of his matches with H largely boring (compared to those with HBK) and honestly feel a lot of the hype and reasons for people liking it were because of the stature of those involved, which is covered in a different stat.

[KrisClassic]

BS flag thrown.

Undertaker, just watch his Kane feud in 2010 and Mania XXVII, that match was meh. Mania XXVIII was good but is it fair to say a guy wrestled once a year to have such as high of a stat?

Swann is not the best brawler from what I've seen in Dragon Gate in Japan. To me he is way more of a flyer than a brawler. Same with Susumu, Naruki and Akira who do not brawl well enough to warrant their current stats.

Regal was more known for matwork than brawl. He is decent as a brawler but NOT one of the best at it.

Flair is not as charismatic anymore and on par with Hogan now.

Heath Slater is ANNOYING and not charasmatic.

I don't see Ambrose and Eddie on the same level as others that they would be on their current stats, same with Percy and Swagger.

I think it's fair to say so when all of his outings from this year and the one before that (though few) were excellent.

I've seen Swann in indy matches where they brawled around the arena and tore the roof off the place. He may not be primarily a brawler, but when he brawls he can GO.

Regal may have been more well KNOWN for his matwork, but that doesn't mean he isn't a fantastic brawler. He truly is one of the best of all time. His punches, elbows, kicks, etc, all look painfully gritty and realistic. They're tremendous.

Agree to disagree on Flair. To me he's the Nature Boy, all-time great, and shouldn't be touched. TBH I'd probably raise Hulk Hogan's charisma to 96. Similar to Percy, Swagger, Moxley (who if you've seen his current FCW promos which have been renowned as incredible, I'm unsure how you could think he deserves any less than 89), and Kingston, agree to disagree.

(BTW, I'd like to show you

if you think Kingston doesn't deserve an 89 at the least.)

Slater: I don't see how annoying =/= charismatic? If a character is a heel and his promo's are making you annoyed, it sounds like he's doing his job.

[Mancuerda]

Undertaker deserves to be in the mid-upper 80s for his brawl. It's just about all he's got left, and he's phenomenal at it. He wrestles one or two matches a year and almost always has the match of the year or one of them in WWE, so yeah, I'd say that's indicative of a pretty incredible brawler.

Slater doesn't even get much of a reaction. He's annoying because nobody wants to see him, not because he does good heel work.

[Mancuerda]

WWE has expressed interest in current UFC Middleweight contender Chael Sonnen. While nothing is official yet, you may want to consider adding him since it's within the realm of possibility that he would be involved in pro wrestling in some way. He is a very pro wrestling-esque personality in MMA, and good friends with CM Punk and Stone Cold.

Full Name: Chael Sonnen

Short Name: Sonnen

Gender: Male

Birth Month: April

Age: 35

Weight: Lightweight (Middleweight = 185, walks around at about 215 or 220-ish)

Picture:

Wage: $85,000

Speaks: Yes

Nationality: American

Primary Finisher: Arm Triangle (submission)

Other Finisher: Ground N Pound (ground)

Disposition: Heel

Position: Non-wrestler (for now)

Gimmick: Legitimate athlete or obnoxious

Brawling: 56

Speed: 30

Technical: 69

Stiffness: 74

Selling: 62

Over: 83

Charisma: 92

Attitude: 70

Behavior: 45

Tick: Shooting Ability, Fonz Factor, Superstar Look, and Announcer. May tick Trainer as well, while Chael doesn't train pro wrestling, he does train strength and conditioning.

Relationships: Friendship with CM Punk, Friendship with Steve Austin

Alter Egos: The American Gangster, Chael P. Sonnen

[=BK=]

Ric Flair is so charismatic he could sell Ice to an Eskimo. His charisma should be one of the highest in the game.