The Penn State Scandal

[DMN in the House]

The fact that people knew about this, at the very latest, in 2002, yet, when there was no follow-up, when Sandusky was still allowed around the program, WITH CHILDREN, and no one, particularly the GA (who quickly became a full-time staff member, possibly on the strength of keeping his mouth shut), felt that maybe, *just* maybe, they should say 'hey, whatever happened with that whole raping kids in the shower thing' leads me to believe that JoePa has lost any right to a respectful and dignified end to his tenure at Penn State. I don't give a fuck how many game's he's won, how many dollars he's donated. For a man who's entire reputation is built on being the morally strong 'good guy' amidst college football's squalor, he has failed far worse than anyone who simply payed a player.

Shit, 'all' Woody Hayes did was take a swing at an opposing player, and he got bounced immediately. Fuck reputation, JoePa, the rest of the Penn State coaching staff, and every fucking person that had even the slightest inkling this was going on, failed these kids in the most egregious way possible. Fuck 'em all.

As for McQueary (sp?), the assistant who was the witness? He's a fucking coward. I don't know about you, but if I see a 55 year old man analy raping a 10 year old boy, my first instinct is not to cut and run, then call my daddy. Someone's getting stomped out, either the rapist, or myself, but you have to step up to the plate for that kid.

Oh, and he claims he told JoePa, in no uncertain terms, exactly what he saw. Either JoePa's going senile and can't remember, or someone's lying.

Everyone who's defending anyone outside of the children in this situation needs to get their head out of their ass and check their moral compass. I'm not a beacon of righteousness, but I feel there's a few issues everyone should be able to agree on, and the response to pedophiles should be one of them. I've seen people going so far as to blame the children, or claim McQueary maybe thought it was consensual (seriously, the fuck? I digress.), on other message boards. Makes me fucking sick. The kids at Penn State rallying around Paterno? Really? The fuck is wrong with people these days. Clean house, and hope you can find a halfway decent coach willing to get within 10 miles of this shitstorm.

[KONGO]

Nobody's saying anything about protecting Jerry Sandusky who is, if you will recall, actually the pedophile. I just don't think it's right to completely demonize Joe Paterno for basically being a guy who did not know what to do with the situation, which is what it looks like sitting here. People are too quick to make this a black-and-white issue. Nothing is black and white. Just jumping up and saying String 'em all up! does not make you a better person.

[Quom]

Especially when you are holding them to a much higher standard than the real world. The psychology of sexual abuse is really weird. As I said adults are often loathe to report it.

[Meacon Keaton]

As for McQueary (sp?), the assistant who was the witness? He's a fucking coward. I don't know about you, but if I see a 55 year old man analy raping a 10 year old boy, my first instinct is not to cut and run, then call my daddy. Someone's getting stomped out, either the rapist, or myself, but you have to step up to the plate for that kid.

Yeah, I'm with you. I'd step in if he was "just" beating a kid, let alone doing anything sexually. Hell, I'd be the one in prison because I'd probably beat him to death. McQueary is very much a coward for running and telling as opposed to stopping the act from happening, even in a non-violent form.

[KONGO]

Especially when you are holding them to a much higher standard than the real world.

This is my basic beef with everybody decrying Paterno. You're really expecting him to be a hero when he maybe isn't, and it's not bad for him to not be a hero. He's failed in this instance and nobody's saying he hasn't. But people are expecting him to do a lot of shit in a situation where, realistically, nobody is coming out clean. Even if Paterno had reported it to the cops initially, a lot of people would have gone down in a huge scandal... exactly what is happening now. So he sent it to people who probably have more experience dealing in this kind of thing, hoping that it would get dealt with in a way that would get the best results for everybody. This is probably what most people would do. It didn't work out the way he had hoped. It's a horrible thing that happened but it's Sandusky who is at fault, as well as those who directly decided to cover it up. You can't always expect people to step out and take something on their shoulders just because it is "the right thing to do."

Again, Paterno might turn out to be a ridiculous scumbag who was completely in support of Sandusky and subscribed to his newsletter, but that's not what it looks like right now. Until evidence to that effect comes out, I'd rather not jump to any conclusions.

[DMN in the House]

It is my understanding that in practically, if not, every state, teachers and school officials (which would include coaches, and most certainly ADs and such) are mandatory reporters in cases of child abuse. That means that there is no excuse for not doing the proper thing, nor for letting this get swept under the rug. Reputations, both personal, professional, and of the university, were put above the well-being of children here.

People really need to stop making excuses. I'm not holding anyone to a 'higher standard' than the real world, I'm holding them to the exact same standard I'd hold anyone else, and hold myself to. If adults are 'often loathe to report' in situations such as this, then, yeah, I consider myself a better person than them.

Also, I'm not saying 'string 'em up'. I'm saying 'stop defending these cowards who, by not forcing a proper investigation when it was well within their power (ESPECIALLY JoePa and the AD) to do so' and 'all involved should lose their nice, cushy jobs, and the respect they may have earned'. There are moments in life that define who you are as a person, this was a defining moment for these men, and they failed, in, quite possibly, the most egregious way possible.

[KONGO]

Man. I hate to do things like speculate on what other people would do or think, but it's really easy to say now, oh yeah I'd kick the fucking shit out of them! Man I would report them like three times! But you weren't there. It didn't happen to you. And you don't actually have any fucking idea what it is like to be in that situation. All you are hearing is "child molesters" and you immediately think oh shit something should be done about that. Yes, something should have been done. Yes, it should have been reported, and yes, Joe Paterno should lose his job, as should everybody else.

But does not doing more than he did make Joe Paterno a bad person? Not necessarily. I agree that such moments define a person to other people. That is what people will remember him for. When you find yourself in a similar situation and you have the mental acuity to act, then we will all give you kudos. But this is the difference between talking about it and doing it. This is why people who are actually in the job make fun of armchair generals, armchair quarterbacks, armchair bookers, etc. You have no idea what it is like to deal with it in the moment. Not only the consequences, but the mental pressure. And it's different for everything. Joe Paterno may have been equipped to deal with football coaching pressure, but he obviously crumbled under this pressure, and everybody crumbles under pressure at one time or another.

The bottom line is, you have no idea. When you are in a similar situation, you will have room to talk. Until you are, I don't think it's fair to demonize Joe Paterno for not being in the proper state of mind, or hoping that someone else would take the problem off of his hands.

[DMN in the House]

Especially when you are holding them to a much higher standard than the real world.

This is my basic beef with everybody decrying Paterno. You're really expecting him to be a hero when he maybe isn't, and it's not bad for him to not be a hero. He's failed in this instance and nobody's saying he hasn't. But people are expecting him to do a lot of shit in a situation where, realistically, nobody is coming out clean. Even if Paterno had reported it to the cops initially, a lot of people would have gone down in a huge scandal... exactly what is happening now. So he sent it to people who probably have more experience dealing in this kind of thing, hoping that it would get dealt with in a way that would get the best results for everybody. This is probably what most people would do. It didn't work out the way he had hoped. It's a horrible thing that happened but it's Sandusky who is at fault, as well as those who directly decided to cover it up. You can't always expect people to step out and take something on their shoulders just because it is "the right thing to do."

Again, Paterno might turn out to be a ridiculous scumbag who was completely in support of Sandusky and subscribed to his newsletter, but that's not what it looks like right now. Until evidence to that effect comes out, I'd rather not jump to any conclusions.

He didn't need to be a 'hero'. I don't blame him for initially going to the AD, but when nothing happens, and Sandusky is still allowed around the program (which, by the way, is directly Paterno's fault. Don't try to argue otherwise), then, by not pressing for something to be done, an actual investigation, anything, you have enabled the molestation of children to continue. No, you're not there holding them down while Sandusky penetrates them, but you're not in the 'right', far fucking from it.

Besides that, the idea that he didn't push it because it would cause a 'scandal like is happening here' is complete and utter bullshit. If Paterno, the AD, ANYONE, had come out at the time and attempted to stop this, they not only WOULDN'T be vilified, but quite the opposite. Yes, there would be a scandal, but not nearly of this proportion. The story would have been about Sandusky, and how JoePa and Pen State shut him down, not about how they let it continue and may have covered it up. The only person losing their job, reputation, and having their life ruined in that situation is Sandusky.

[KONGO]

Especially when you are holding them to a much higher standard than the real world.

This is my basic beef with everybody decrying Paterno. You're really expecting him to be a hero when he maybe isn't, and it's not bad for him to not be a hero. He's failed in this instance and nobody's saying he hasn't. But people are expecting him to do a lot of shit in a situation where, realistically, nobody is coming out clean. Even if Paterno had reported it to the cops initially, a lot of people would have gone down in a huge scandal... exactly what is happening now. So he sent it to people who probably have more experience dealing in this kind of thing, hoping that it would get dealt with in a way that would get the best results for everybody. This is probably what most people would do. It didn't work out the way he had hoped. It's a horrible thing that happened but it's Sandusky who is at fault, as well as those who directly decided to cover it up. You can't always expect people to step out and take something on their shoulders just because it is "the right thing to do."

Again, Paterno might turn out to be a ridiculous scumbag who was completely in support of Sandusky and subscribed to his newsletter, but that's not what it looks like right now. Until evidence to that effect comes out, I'd rather not jump to any conclusions.

He didn't need to be a 'hero'. I don't blame him for initially going to the AD, but when nothing happens, and Sandusky is still allowed around the program (which, by the way, is directly Paterno's fault. Don't try to argue otherwise), then, by not pressing for something to be done, an actual investigation, anything, you have enabled the molestation of children to continue. No, you're not there holding them down while Sandusky penetrates them, but you're not in the 'right', far fucking from it.

Besides that, the idea that he didn't push it because it would cause a 'scandal like is happening here' is complete and utter bullshit. If Paterno, the AD, ANYONE, had come out at the time and attempted to stop this, they not only WOULDN'T be vilified, but quite the opposite. Yes, there would be a scandal, but not nearly of this proportion. The story would have been about Sandusky, and how JoePa and Pen State shut him down, not about how they let it continue and may have covered it up. The only person losing their job, reputation, and having their life ruined in that situation is Sandusky.

That's wishful thinking. People are sharks in situations like this. Everybody would have lost their heads.

[Quom]

That's fine and you can hold that opinion but it doesn't make it fact, or even based in fact. You may also find yourself a better person for it. I'm in a very similar position as you, I would report any suspicion at any time. But I feel no ill will towards those that don't because I'd end up hating too many people.

Also mandatory reporting doesn't work the way you think and by telling his higher ups he actually met his duty of care as defined in mandatory reporting, so he actually went above and beyond as mandatory reporting requires you to report if you believe there is a current risk.

[DMN in the House]

I'm not going to argue about it any more, because I like you guys, and we're never going to get anywhere. I feel to strongly on this ('this' meaning how we should react to child molesters (I'm in the camp of summary execution once proven guilty)) to compromise.

Quom, if you can forgive people for not doing enough (my words, not yours), then you may be a better man than I. I couldn't live with myself knowing it was well within my power to stop something like this, yet not having done it. Even if it cost me my job, my career, friends, what have you, at least I'd be able to sleep at night knowing I've done the right thing.

Just, you know, my strong words and feelings aren't personally directed at you, 'kay?

[Quom]

Of course we know that, you big silly!

In my line of work you quickly realise that most people are cowards. Beyond that with boys it's really hard to prove sexual assault has taken place (unless it's recently done and there is semen or bruising present as despite urban myths you can't tell that someone has been done up the bum unless they contract an STD or get damaged). So often times unless there is a third party or a number of separate victims to corroborate the police don't want to touch it anyway.

I'm not trying to downplay it or to state that he's an angel or has done the right thing (or even enough by the standards I hold myself to) but he has done what was asked of him and he's done enough or more than most.

The guy who saw him at it and never did anything about it deserves castrating though. Fine if you don't want to beat the shit out of him, instead get straight in your car and drive to the nearest police station. Actually if you had a mobile phone with a camera I'd snap some pictures then drive to the police.

[Meacon Keaton]

I think I'd be looking at this in a different light if it was a one time occurence. That's bad enough. But we're now up to nine victims coming forward. The fact that he (Sandusky) was allowed to still bring children on campus even after the first (that was reported) occurence is just terrible and unacceptable.

Had anyone, be it Paterno, McQueary, the AD, reported this to police, as I'm sure is the law, they could have saved several of these children a lot of hardship.

[Quom]

Actually it isn't if it's the same as in Australia. Generally if you report it to someone higher up the duty of care/mandatory reporting is considered complete. Especially if you aren't part of the field and aren't sure what you're dealing with. Psychologists and social workers will also often report to their board or call in a consultation prior to raising an issue as you also have to respect privacy laws and confidentiality and all that sort of shit. There is a huge difference between suspicion and witnessing or having the perp make a disclosure to you.

The only major issue I have with Paterno is not asking why the perp was still being allowed near children. Then again he may have thought that the college had decided it was merely speculation/rumour after taking it to the police.

If you want to do an experiment call up or go into a police station and state that your next door neighbour runs stuff involving children and you have heard rumours he molests them. When they ask you for proof just state that all you have heard are the rumours and see what the police do with the information. Even if you said that you heard from someone who stated that they saw him fucking a child up the bum they will ask for that person's name, if they state you are insane and they never saw that it again will be dropped.

Again I'm not excusing him, but minus hiring a private detective to follow this guy or by insisting that he gets the sack due to the rumours then I don't see what more could be expected of him. Beyond that ask male teachers or male social workers if they think it's fair that they be fired if there is so much as a rumour about inappropriateness (for us it's not if an allegation is raised but when).

The people he reported to are the ones who need raking over the coals.

I'm all for protecting children and I'd generally be the one beating my drum the loudest. If he hadn't of bothered taking his concerns anywhere then it would be a shitty thing. But to me he actually ticked all of the boxes. Having said that giving interviews where he seems to only care about the football team and the school really doesn't help in the least, it's for that I want him fired.

[Meacon Keaton]

I guess it's a matter of professional obligation versus moral obligation.

Professionally, he did as he was suppose to. He alerted his superiors, allowing them to deal with it.

But morally, you'd think he would have followed through regarding the incident, once he looked across the table and realized the guy was still on his staff and not in prison. In that instance, it seems like he was putting his program ahead of the safety of those children.

[Quom]

What did Paterno know, can someone link or tell me? Some people are basically saying he heard a rumour he thought was credible enough to take further, others are acting as if he was standing there filming it. I mean if I heard a work colleague may have done something at sometime, I wouldn't sit on it, at the same time I wouldn't go running to the police unless I was sure it was legitimate. I would alert my management to the issue and assume they would look into it (especially since those with mandatory reporting are meant to know what they're up to).

So really I guess it all comes down to how much he knew and how much he suspected. If it was more than rumour and had moved to a credible belief then he's a piece of shit.

[Fait Accompli]

From what I heard, he was told about the shower incident like a day or so after McQueary saw it happen.

[Lint]

That and there was a similar accusation against Sandusky in, I believe, 1998. After it came out, Sandusky surprisingly retired and Paterno refused to attend the retirement dinner

[Meacon Keaton]

From what I've read/heard, McQueary went to him about it. So he got it directly from the source that saw it happening. It wasn't a "Hey, Joe, you hear about Jerry having sex with a kid in the shower?" type bullshit session.

[Lint]

http://www.975thefanatic.com/teams/college/blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10311618#.TrryxqXgtHs.twitter

I know Meacon, you don't like 97.5. But this is a pretty good interview with Cory Giger from ESPNs State College affiliate with some good information, like Sandusky being at Penn State practice in 2007 with a young boy, with Paterno and Mike McQuery there. Think its from last night