2012 NFL Season

[gunnar hendershow]

He won on the strength of his legs, McGahee's legs, a top-tier offensive line, and his defense last year (the stat about the yards they allowed is skewed due to the short time of possession on the offensive side of the ball). Tebow as a pocket passer played no role, and against New England held the team back immensely. He is not a good passer, he was fortunate enough to have good receivers though. Sanchez had better numbers when he had a better crop of receivers than he does this year. Decker and Thomas likely accounted for some of the numbers on their own abilities. All told, 46.5% completion percentage in 2011. You cannot spin that into something positive, yes his team won games, yes he's not phased under pressure, yes he's a good leader, but no he is not a good QB and you cannot build a team around him.

While I agree with most of that, I don't think the bold is necessarily the case. The read option/pistol/whatever the team wants to call it is all over the place this year and it's going to be even moreso in the next couple of years and because of that, I don't think it's impossible to build a team around him. That said, he's still going to have limitations and isn't likely to be anything more than above average (at best) in a system built for him but I don't think it's the worst idea either.

His growth, or lack thereof, hasn't exactly been helped by the fact that he hasn't any legitimate offensive mind to help him either.

The read option/pistol works as part of an NFL offense but not the centerpiece of it. For it to work the QB needs to have accuracy as well. Something like the pistol works at college because the defensive talent on most teams is usually not at a caliber enough to have enough atlhetes to regularly stop it from working. They exist because a team that can't traditionally win can load up on speedy skill players on offense to counterbalance against bigger, but slower defenses. NFL defenses are so fast, options work as... options. You need a variety of playcalling. I'm still waiting for the Wildcat to revolutionize the game like we were promised.

No system is going to fit his style, he fits in as a gimmick sub and just that. He could fit in on certain playcalls, but he's not an everyday QB but thanks to where he was drafted you can assume he'll be overpaid for his value to a team.

[Red Devil-Taker316]

He won on the strength of his legs, McGahee's legs, a top-tier offensive line, and his defense last year (the stat about the yards they allowed is skewed due to the short time of possession on the offensive side of the ball). Tebow as a pocket passer played no role, and against New England held the team back immensely. He is not a good passer, he was fortunate enough to have good receivers though. Sanchez had better numbers when he had a better crop of receivers than he does this year. Decker and Thomas likely accounted for some of the numbers on their own abilities. All told, 46.5% completion percentage in 2011. You cannot spin that into something positive, yes his team won games, yes he's not phased under pressure, yes he's a good leader, but no he is not a good QB and you cannot build a team around him.

For the record, that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that he deserves a chance in the NFL still, that he is a NFL caliber QB (most likely a below average one, this isn't exactly high praise) and has had success in the NFL, more success than failure, so that he could succeed.

I'm really arguing against the whole "he doesn't deserve to be in the NFL, he's a complete scrub, CFL next year etc" sentiment.

[Tits McGee]

he needs to learn a new position real fast. blaine gabbert is more accurate of a passer

[DMN in the House]

Below 50% passing...hell below 55%, is atrocious in todays NFL. I could do better, because i, at the very least, have better mechanics than Tebow. He will never be a 'quality'starter in the NFL, and what happened in Denver last year was a fluke.

He'll be out of the league inside three years.

[GhostMachine]

Tebow deserves to be a starter over Sanchez, when Sanchez can't even go into a game without turning the ball over almost half a dozen times. On another team, Sanchez would have been benched for ANY other QB on the team well before that fifth and final one happened.

You can build a team around Tebow's talents (or lack thereof), but with Sanchez when his confidence is shot or he's just having a bad game (which is way too often), you're hosed. Tebow may or may not start elsewhere but will get to play regardless. Especially if he goes to Jacksonville, which is where he should have in the first place. Not the Jets. Sanchez will end up being a backup somewhere else when he leaves the Jets. I can't really see any team signing him as a starter.

[The Buscher]

Kinda hard to get pumped up about tomorrow's game. Would like to see the Giants end the year on a high note but unless the other 3 games work out in the their favor it won't really mean much. If 4 PM rolls around with the Giants and Lions having both won, then I'll start to really get excited since I definitely see the Packers taking out the Vikings, and I'm conditioned to assume the Cowboys will cock up in the national spotlight with their season on the line.

[Cactus Drags]

He won on the strength of his legs, McGahee's legs, a top-tier offensive line, and his defense last year (the stat about the yards they allowed is skewed due to the short time of possession on the offensive side of the ball). Tebow as a pocket passer played no role, and against New England held the team back immensely. He is not a good passer, he was fortunate enough to have good receivers though. Sanchez had better numbers when he had a better crop of receivers than he does this year. Decker and Thomas likely accounted for some of the numbers on their own abilities. All told, 46.5% completion percentage in 2011. You cannot spin that into something positive, yes his team won games, yes he's not phased under pressure, yes he's a good leader, but no he is not a good QB and you cannot build a team around him.

While I agree with most of that, I don't think the bold is necessarily the case. The read option/pistol/whatever the team wants to call it is all over the place this year and it's going to be even moreso in the next couple of years and because of that, I don't think it's impossible to build a team around him. That said, he's still going to have limitations and isn't likely to be anything more than above average (at best) in a system built for him but I don't think it's the worst idea either.

His growth, or lack thereof, hasn't exactly been helped by the fact that he hasn't any legitimate offensive mind to help him either.

Not a chance. The difference between Tebow and the QBs finding success with that pistol stuff is that they can throw the ball and, y'know, actually complete a pass more than half the time. Also, they make better reads than Tebow v(especially Griffin). With Tebow it seems to be if his first look isn't open, he runs.

He won on the strength of his legs, McGahee's legs, a top-tier offensive line, and his defense last year (the stat about the yards they allowed is skewed due to the short time of possession on the offensive side of the ball). Tebow as a pocket passer played no role, and against New England held the team back immensely. He is not a good passer, he was fortunate enough to have good receivers though. Sanchez had better numbers when he had a better crop of receivers than he does this year. Decker and Thomas likely accounted for some of the numbers on their own abilities. All told, 46.5% completion percentage in 2011. You cannot spin that into something positive, yes his team won games, yes he's not phased under pressure, yes he's a good leader, but no he is not a good QB and you cannot build a team around him.

While I agree with most of that, I don't think the bold is necessarily the case. The read option/pistol/whatever the team wants to call it is all over the place this year and it's going to be even moreso in the next couple of years and because of that, I don't think it's impossible to build a team around him. That said, he's still going to have limitations and isn't likely to be anything more than above average (at best) in a system built for him but I don't think it's the worst idea either.

His growth, or lack thereof, hasn't exactly been helped by the fact that he hasn't any legitimate offensive mind to help him either.

The read option/pistol works as part of an NFL offense but not the centerpiece of it. For it to work the QB needs to have accuracy as well. Something like the pistol works at college because the defensive talent on most teams is usually not at a caliber enough to have enough atlhetes to regularly stop it from working. They exist because a team that can't traditionally win can load up on speedy skill players on offense to counterbalance against bigger, but slower defenses. NFL defenses are so fast, options work as... options. You need a variety of playcalling. I'm still waiting for the Wildcat to revolutionize the game like we were promised.

No system is going to fit his style, he fits in as a gimmick sub and just that. He could fit in on certain playcalls, but he's not an everyday QB but thanks to where he was drafted you can assume he'll be overpaid for his value to a team.

I found thisto be an excellent read on the developing pistol stuff in the NFL. This bit refers to your point in particular:

many resisted the notion of ever making the concepts the centerpiece of a team’s offense. The most common reason cited for such resistance was NFL defenses were simply too fast, too strong, too complex and too good for it to be successful. Yet that always got the point backwards. Those factors – while all true – also made it inevitable that the NFL would eventually adopt these concepts: Ault’s Pistol zone read attack, Chip Kelly’s no-huddle spread option, and other variants mathematically tip the scales back to the offense’s favor. It’s basic arithmetic.

“As I’ve tried to explain to people, whenever the guy who takes the snap is a threat to run, it changes all the math of defenses,” Tampa Bay Buccaneers head coach Greg Schiano said last March [source]. “That’s really what defense is, it’s getting your troops to where the ball is going to be. And when that guy holding it is a threat to run, it changes the numbers – minus-one.”

[livid]

He won on the strength of his legs, McGahee's legs, a top-tier offensive line, and his defense last year (the stat about the yards they allowed is skewed due to the short time of possession on the offensive side of the ball). Tebow as a pocket passer played no role, and against New England held the team back immensely. He is not a good passer, he was fortunate enough to have good receivers though. Sanchez had better numbers when he had a better crop of receivers than he does this year. Decker and Thomas likely accounted for some of the numbers on their own abilities. All told, 46.5% completion percentage in 2011. You cannot spin that into something positive, yes his team won games, yes he's not phased under pressure, yes he's a good leader, but no he is not a good QB and you cannot build a team around him.

While I agree with most of that, I don't think the bold is necessarily the case. The read option/pistol/whatever the team wants to call it is all over the place this year and it's going to be even moreso in the next couple of years and because of that, I don't think it's impossible to build a team around him. That said, he's still going to have limitations and isn't likely to be anything more than above average (at best) in a system built for him but I don't think it's the worst idea either.

His growth, or lack thereof, hasn't exactly been helped by the fact that he hasn't any legitimate offensive mind to help him either.

Not a chance. The difference between Tebow and the QBs finding success with that pistol stuff is that they can throw the ball and, y'know, actually complete a pass more than half the time. Also, they make better reads than Tebow v(especially Griffin). With Tebow it seems to be if his first look isn't open, he runs.

That's not quite what I meant. I'm not saying that if you put Tebow in a spread/read option offense that he'll all of a sudden be a great QB, I'm saying that you can develop a similar offense that would allow him to have moderate success. It's obvious he couldn't run the same offense as RG3 or even Colin Kaepernick but a similar one? Yes. It's all about masking his weaknesses and an offense similar to that would be the best way to do it.

[Cactus Drags]

I get that, but the point I'm making is that I can't see him capable of even moderate success when he can't make his reads and can't complete a pass. Those other guys don't just succeed because they can run, they succeed because they're smart and can throw the ball. The weaknesses he's shown so far seem to great to be masked, and even if he's in a situation like he was in Denver, it's not sustainable.

[Plubby]

You don't know that it's not sustainable. You can't. Conversely, you can't know that it was a fluke. Unless you give him that chance.

It strikes me as monumentally unfair that unless someone like a Jacksonville (or even a Tennessee or KC whose QBs are worse) scoops him up then he probably is going to be outside of the league in three years.

What's worse is that all the critics at this point are going to crow that they were right about Tebow. Except they won't be. He'll be out of the league without ever getting a chance to flunk out. If he gets his chance, stinks up the joint, loses and then gets tossed on his ear...then all's fine and dandy. He deserves it. But right now, he doesn't. Even in the (staggeringly) limited playtime he got this year, his numbers showed that he provided about what the Jets were lacking this year: He didn't turn the ball over, and his rushing along with a capable Shonn Greene (about the only offensive Jet who you could claim this for) would have at least made the Jets competitive.

As it stands, the Jets have one win against decent opposition (Colts) and have three relative laughers of losses.

[gunnar hendershow]

The problem is you have to show your team in practice you can perform in a regular game. Tebow has failed to do that during his entire time in New York. He was relegated to third string in Denver at the start of 2011 and had a storm of luck put him into the starting spot just as the team was getting hot all around and it worked out brilliantly. No, we might not have the chance to see for certain but if a guy doesn't show you anything at practice you'd be a fool to take a chance on him in a regular game out of anything other than necessity.

With that said, I think we've seen enough from Sanchez this year where they should, in a throwaway game, see what Tebow can do. But it's not like he's inspiring them with any hope at practice.

[Powerhart]

That's not the problem. It was obvious that the Coach didn't wanted to give him a chance. Tebow deserved, at the very least, one start, and he was barely given a full drive.

[GoGo Yubari]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL2o4MJqD9g

[gunnar hendershow]

That's not the problem. It was obvious that the Coach didn't wanted to give him a chance. Tebow deserved, at the very least, one start, and he was barely given a full drive.

I said they should have given him a start. Not over McElroy certainly, who I think could wind up as their starter next year, but in a week 17 game where they had the choice between he and Sanchez. They already decided Sanchez wasn't going to work out, they ran with him until they were knocked out of playoff contention which is a level of loyalty from a coach that exceeds expectations (but, quite frankly, is refreshing) and then made the switch to McElroy who had a starting job to earn. But in a week 17 game you can put Tebow out there and see how he does to maybe sway you in one direction or the other. It's not a wise personnel decision to not give him a chance, even if you're certain he's headed for like a 4 for 15 game with 34 yards.

[Plubby]

Actually I think they should have given him the start over McElroy. You can't play him now. What if he has another Steelers performance?

[gunnar hendershow]

Actually I think they should have given him the start over McElroy. You can't play him now. What if he has another Steelers performance?

Then you keep him since you have him under contract and try to rebuild your relationship with him. If Tebow is that good, after a year of looking like shit in practice and giving the coaching staff zero incentive to think he's the answer at QB, that one game against the lowly Bills sways them into wanting to keep him they can. And if he doesn't want to stay, you don't release him but work on getting some return in a trade. If teams think he's that good after one game they'll be willing to part with something in order to be guaranteed they can have him.

In closing, McElroy was simply better and earned his spot ahead of Tebow. Players who are better on the practice field deserve to be rewarded over those who aren't.

[Dan]

If Denver never got Manning, do you think Tebow would have started for them this year?

[Maxx]

Yes, they really wouldn't have had a choice. The fanbase loved him, they were only okay with him being traded as he was replaced by one of the greatest QBs of all time.

[Tits McGee]

[gunnar hendershow]

If Denver never got Manning, do you think Tebow would have started for them this year?

Echoing what Maxx said, no question he starts this year. It's an interesting what if, the Denver defense is good enough to hold teams from scoring, the running game last year was enough to win games, and Thomas and Decker are both clearly good receivers who can catch a lot of balls. I think 12-3 at this point isn't attainable with Tebow under center, but they'd still be battling for a playoff spot (especially in their division) at the least. John Fox ran the right offense to mask as many weaknesses of Tebow's as he could in 2011 and I'm sure that would continue into 2012. Granted, I think he would have been very quick to pull Tebow if things went south this year.

And, yeah, he was loved by the fans. Credit Rex Ryan at least for not giving into fan dissent about his QB choice and picking who he perceived to the best choice for his team. New York just doesn't have the style of offense where they could make up for Tim's failings and the defense isn't where it once was to help in keeping a lot of games close.