Superman 64 Discussion Thread

[SeanDMan]

Yeah this topic is always going to go one of two ways:

1. "Here is what gamergate means to me, I have issues with the ethics in games journalism" "YOU FUCKING MISOGYNIST, ALL YOU DO IS HATE WOMEN, FUCK OFF".

Except no one is saying that.

Except when you say things like:

Gamergate IS harrassing females. They don't do anything else.

History will forever judge them as misogynistic loons

a toxic group like GamerGate

There's no distinction made between prominent GamerGators and anyone else who has issues with the state of gaming and games journalism.

There are plenty of extreme feminists on Tumblr; people who support forced castration of men on the belief that all of them will grow up to be rapists, people who consider all heterosexual sex to be rape because women aren't able to consent due to power imbalances, things like that. That doesn't mean I can say "so obviously as a feminist you support these things" because I, as a rational and sane person, can separate the extremist fringe from the individual. I don't consider a hashtag to represent someone or the fact that you have the same positions as someone to mean you have all the same opinions.

To draw it simply;

I am discussing Gamergate.

Some people who discuss Gamergate are misogynists.

I am not, however, necessarily a misogynist.

In the same vein;

You are on a wrestling messageboard.

Some people on wrestling messageboards are homophobes.

I do not, however, think you are a homophobe.

People are saying that the most prominent GamerGators, the ones who are organising shit, the ones you could conceivably call 'leaders' of the movement, have and are organising and engaging in harassment campaigns, getting as many people as they can who aren't their own masturbatory little sockpuppets to engage in it as well - until they doxx their own leaders.

In an interview that TotalBiscuit (youtube vidyagamesdude) did with David Pakman (progressive Youtube journalist), he stated that "if we're going to have a meaningful discussion, the best way to do that is in good faith; people who want to be abusive need to be frozen out and the people who want to be inclusive can focus on discussing their differences".

I DON'T GIVE A FUCK WHAT ADAM BALDWIN SAYS. I am not Adam Baldwin and I'm not a fan of his. He is not my leader and he doesn't represent me. I do not associate with or support anyone who believes that women and ideas and concepts that are comfortable for women have no place in games. In my world gaming is inclusive and everyone is welcome.

I am not part of a collective or a harassment machine, I am an individual.

The weapon of choice for most Gamergaters isn't petitions or letters or campaigns to get game journalists to change their methods. It's doxxing, hacking, harassment and in extreme cases, swatting (although swatting isn't something that's limited to GG nor is it a problem that's arisen out of GG or something GG - or the anti-GG side - particularly engages in).

Again, things like doxxing and swatting are the extreme fringe. They aren't part of the discussion, they are purely a disruption.

GamerGate is a harassment movement that is pretending to be about games journalism.

What happened to "No one is saying is that". You are saying that. You are judging an entire side of a discussion by one subsection of it.

Ethics in games journalism might be what gamergate is to you, but if you believe that's what gamergate is about, then you are drinking the kool aid.

Again, no. There are far extremes in every discussion.

Rational, intellectual discussion is about middleground and common goals. In every "movement" there is an extreme fringe; the extremist feminists who believe in eugenics to remove the male chromosome so that everyone is born female, the extremist atheists who believe in killing leaders of organized religion, the extremist anti-government anarchists who believe in blowing up banks and killing politicians. Does that mean every feminist is a lunatic? That every anarchist is a would be murderer? When you judge the message by the extreme lengths that the insane will go to in order to see it happen, every message becomes disgusting.

This isn't confirmation bias, this is clear, verifiable fact. GamerGate started as a movement to harass Zoe Quinn and ruin her career and her life. It has since expanded to include supporters of Quinn, opponents and critics of GG, and even their own leaders and supporters - seriously, KingofPol, Lizzyf620, the Mangotron site owner, InternetAristocrat, developer Rogue Star.

I'm not going to debate how Gamergate started, or deny that there was an element dedicated to attacking Zoe Quinn; there was. And there's an element of the internet dedicated to ending the careers of most people. Again, you're taking the actions of a minority and saying "these are your leaders! This is your message!". It's not, they aren't, stop it.

GamerGate's targets are almost all women, with male victims of doxxing by GG happening as either an afterthought or after they themselves point it out (Chris Kluwe, for example, was doxxed 70 days after posting about GG and only after he pointed this out and challenged GG to doxx him). Hell, they even try to doxx themselves. The creator of the #notyourshield hashtag, tried to doxx himself on /baphomet/ GG's hit squad messageboard on 8chan, in order to rile things up even more.

I'm not going to bother wading through forums to find out when who doxxed who except to say: again, you are focusing on the extreme portion of gamergate who probably don't even want to have a discussion. There are some people who only want to cause problems and have no real stake or concern for issues besides being as big a dickhole as they possibly can.

Also Chris Kluwe made jokes about rape victims so fuck that guy.

They organise now - after having been thrown out of 4chan - on 8chan, which functions also as a repository for child porn, something 8chan's owner allows because 'free speech'. Said owner and GG supporter then goes onto doxx those who report 8chans new domain to CloudFlare for hosting child porn, just days after its first domain is seized for exactly the same reason. Blogger Foldablehuman was doxxed by GGers the day after they expose the child porn hosting on 8chan. Washington Post journalist Caitlin Dewey is doxxed the same day she publishes an article about the same subject.

Saying that 8chan got thrown out of 4chan and is now the home of child porn is stupid for 2 reasons:

1. 8chan left 4chan because gamergate discussion was banned, which was because the owner of 4chan was dating the daughter of a highup at Gawker media and he wanted to keep peace with his SO, and

2. 4chan has hosted child porn since it's inception and it's rules on image content are the same as 8chan.

Nice of you to try and relate Gamergate to child porn though. Very classy of you. Way to stick to the issues.

You can say 'to me GamerGate is about x' or 'i dont care about the harassment because y happens' or whatever else people are using (and this isn't directed at Sean) but GamerGate is clearly a harassment movement.

Here's the thing though:

You can say 'to me GamerGate is about harassing women' or 'i dont care about the issues in games journalism because perceived sexism happens' or whatever else people are using (and this isn't directed at Jacques Rougeau) but GamerGate is clearly about ethics in games journalism.

Just because I say things, with periods and everything to make it seem like factual statements, doesn't mean it's true.

Is there harassment in Gamergate? Yes.

Are there legitimate ethical issues being discussed? Yes.

Is it completely a harassment campaign? No.

Is the harassment acceptable? No.

is it acceptable to dismiss an entire discussion because some people in that discussion are taking things too far?

Obviously, to you, the answer to the last one is "yes". Although I imagine that's only true because the movement is something you don't care about.

[Troy Maskell]

Troy Maskell: single-handedly keeping Kool-Aid in business.

Kool-Aid has nothing to do with my views. It's called common sense, you might want to use it one day, I hear it helps

I trust that you're only repeating it as rumour on account of having never encountered it yourself.

Well I certainly haven't encountered it from anyone talking to me in this thread if that's what you mean

Edit: Except maybe Sean but I don't think he ever spoke to me directly

Edited February 22, 2015 by Troy Maskell

[apsham]

Troy Maskell: single-handedly keeping Kool-Aid in business.

Kool-Aid has nothing to do with my views. It's called common sense, you might want to use it one day, I hear it helps

There's no common sense in anything that you or any of the other GG people have been posting.

There is a really fucking simple bottom line here and it has to do with wishing and hoping. No matter how much you wish and hope like Bret Hart was your genine in a bottle, you CANNOT say "I support GamerGate but I don't support what their leadership does" because then you DO NOT SUPPORT GAMERGATE because you instead support an idea that they are in all reality NOT about.

[Plubby]

Also Chris Kluwe made jokes about rape victims so fuck that guy.

They organise now - after having been thrown out of 4chan - on 8chan, which functions also as a repository for child porn, something 8chan's owner allows because 'free speech'. Said owner and GG supporter then goes onto doxx those who report 8chans new domain to CloudFlare for hosting child porn, just days after its first domain is seized for exactly the same reason. Blogger Foldablehuman was doxxed by GGers the day after they expose the child porn hosting on 8chan. Washington Post journalist Caitlin Dewey is doxxed the same day she publishes an article about the same subject.

Saying that 8chan got thrown out of 4chan and is now the home of child porn is stupid for 2 reasons:

1. 8chan left 4chan because gamergate discussion was banned, which was because the owner of 4chan was dating the daughter of a highup at Gawker media and he wanted to keep peace with his SO, and

2. 4chan has hosted child porn since it's inception and it's rules on image content are the same as 8chan.

Nice of you to try and relate Gamergate to child porn though. Very classy of you. Way to stick to the issues.

Do you see what you have done here?

[SeanDMan]

BTW, some anti-Gamergate twitter user made some comments about using Sarin Nerve Gas to kill all the Gamergaters at Pax East.

https://storify.com/LibertarianBlue/who-should-really-feel-unsafe-at-paxeast

Does that mean that everyone on opposed to GamerGate is a would be terrorist? Or should I forgo your "slander the common man with the views of the insane" position and continue to try and deal with people in good faith and assume they are rational, balanced human beings?

Also Chris Kluwe made jokes about rape victims so fuck that guy.

They organise now - after having been thrown out of 4chan - on 8chan, which functions also as a repository for child porn, something 8chan's owner allows because 'free speech'. Said owner and GG supporter then goes onto doxx those who report 8chans new domain to CloudFlare for hosting child porn, just days after its first domain is seized for exactly the same reason. Blogger Foldablehuman was doxxed by GGers the day after they expose the child porn hosting on 8chan. Washington Post journalist Caitlin Dewey is doxxed the same day she publishes an article about the same subject.

Saying that 8chan got thrown out of 4chan and is now the home of child porn is stupid for 2 reasons:

1. 8chan left 4chan because gamergate discussion was banned, which was because the owner of 4chan was dating the daughter of a highup at Gawker media and he wanted to keep peace with his SO, and

2. 4chan has hosted child porn since it's inception and it's rules on image content are the same as 8chan.

Nice of you to try and relate Gamergate to child porn though. Very classy of you. Way to stick to the issues.

Do you see what you have done here?

Did you want to jump to a conclusion and accuse me of something, Plubby?

[Troy Maskell]

BTW, some anti-Gamergate twitter user made some comments about using Sarin Nerve Gas to kill all the Gamergaters at Pax East.

https://storify.com/LibertarianBlue/who-should-really-feel-unsafe-at-paxeast

Does that mean that everyone on opposed to GamerGate is a would be terrorist? Or should I forgo your "slander the common man with the views of the insane" position and continue to try and deal with people in good faith and assume they are rational, balanced human beings?

Don't bring up pesky things like "the facts" Sean. Brianna Wu has already deemed that as "Another example of Gamergate Harrassment" so naturally it MUST be true

[Troy Maskell]

Troy Maskell: single-handedly keeping Kool-Aid in business.

Kool-Aid has nothing to do with my views. It's called common sense, you might want to use it one day, I hear it helps

There's no common sense in anything that you or any of the other GG people have been posting.

There is a really fucking simple bottom line here and it has to do with wishing and hoping. No matter how much you wish and hope like Bret Hart was your genine in a bottle, you CANNOT say "I support GamerGate but I don't support what their leadership does" because then you DO NOT SUPPORT GAMERGATE because you instead support an idea that they are in all reality NOT about.

What part of "we don't have a leader" do you not fucking understand?

By your assumption, you're saying if ONE person does something wrong and uses Gamergate as a hashtag then the whole movement is tainted. Meanwhile people like Wu, Sarkeesian and co are whipping up all this hatred, to the point where people are threatening to show up at PAX East with Sarin gas to "Kill all the Gamergaters" or Wu actively promotes giving away tickets to people who "throw down with Gamergaters" But that's okay right?

The hypocrisy of some people never ceases to amaze me

[Plubby]

BTW, some anti-Gamergate twitter user made some comments about using Sarin Nerve Gas to kill all the Gamergaters at Pax East.

https://storify.com/LibertarianBlue/who-should-really-feel-unsafe-at-paxeast

Does that mean that everyone on opposed to GamerGate is a would be terrorist? Or should I forgo your "slander the common man with the views of the insane" position and continue to try and deal with people in good faith and assume they are rational, balanced human beings?

Also Chris Kluwe made jokes about rape victims so fuck that guy.

They organise now - after having been thrown out of 4chan - on 8chan, which functions also as a repository for child porn, something 8chan's owner allows because 'free speech'. Said owner and GG supporter then goes onto doxx those who report 8chans new domain to CloudFlare for hosting child porn, just days after its first domain is seized for exactly the same reason. Blogger Foldablehuman was doxxed by GGers the day after they expose the child porn hosting on 8chan. Washington Post journalist Caitlin Dewey is doxxed the same day she publishes an article about the same subject.

Saying that 8chan got thrown out of 4chan and is now the home of child porn is stupid for 2 reasons:

1. 8chan left 4chan because gamergate discussion was banned, which was because the owner of 4chan was dating the daughter of a highup at Gawker media and he wanted to keep peace with his SO, and

2. 4chan has hosted child porn since it's inception and it's rules on image content are the same as 8chan.

Nice of you to try and relate Gamergate to child porn though. Very classy of you. Way to stick to the issues.

Do you see what you have done here?

Did you want to jump to a conclusion and accuse me of something, Plubby?

You dismissed anything Chris Kluwe brought up on account of he made rape jokes and then in the very next thing you said talked about how it was wrong to attack 8 chan's creation and then involvement simply because of the worst of what they do. Surely you can see the hypocrisy present there.

To quote a terrible writer "I didn't jump to conclusions, I took a small step, and there conclusions were"

[Plubby]

Troy Maskell: single-handedly keeping Kool-Aid in business.

Kool-Aid has nothing to do with my views. It's called common sense, you might want to use it one day, I hear it helps

There's no common sense in anything that you or any of the other GG people have been posting.

There is a really fucking simple bottom line here and it has to do with wishing and hoping. No matter how much you wish and hope like Bret Hart was your genine in a bottle, you CANNOT say "I support GamerGate but I don't support what their leadership does" because then you DO NOT SUPPORT GAMERGATE because you instead support an idea that they are in all reality NOT about.

What part of "we don't have a leader" do you not fucking understand?

By your assumption, you're saying if ONE person does something wrong and uses Gamergate as a hashtag then the whole movement is tainted. Meanwhile people like Wu, Sarkeesian and co are whipping up all this hatred, to the point where people are threatening to show up at PAX East with Sarin gas to "Kill all the Gamergaters" or Wu actively promotes giving away tickets to people who "throw down with Gamergaters" But that's okay right?

The hypocrisy of some people never ceases to amaze me

Leadership is not an appointed position. In the same way that none of the people you named are the appointed leaders of the collective who are opposed to GG, but their actions inspire and influence, thus they are leaders - you must accept that those that inspire and influence are leaders of the GG movement.

Also this "if one sins all are tainted" assumption you are forcing upon the anti-gg people is patently absurd. It is very easy to claim the moral high ground when you proclaim the other party to hold a patently absurd position.

It is not a case of identifying the group with the actions of an individual or even a minority. However you are what you repeatedly do. Those who identify with GG repeatedly harass females in the gaming industry. They repeatedly profess to be promoting ethics in gaming journalism. They repeatedly fail to do anything to that effect anywhere else in journalism. They repeatedly fail to cite specific examples of achievements towards this goal within gaming journalism. They are repeatedly nowhere to be found when male gaming journalists are suspected or even proven to be ethically corrupt.

[The Lusophone]

Troy Maskell: single-handedly keeping Kool-Aid in business.

Kool-Aid has nothing to do with my views. It's called common sense, you might want to use it one day, I hear it helps

There's no common sense in anything that you or any of the other GG people have been posting.

There is a really fucking simple bottom line here and it has to do with wishing and hoping. No matter how much you wish and hope like Bret Hart was your genine in a bottle, you CANNOT say "I support GamerGate but I don't support what their leadership does" because then you DO NOT SUPPORT GAMERGATE because you instead support an idea that they are in all reality NOT about.

What part of "we don't have a leader" do you not fucking understand?

The part where that's a blatant lie?

[SeanDMan]

You dismissed anything Chris Kluwe brought up on account of he made rape jokes

Uh, no I didn't, I literally made no comment on anything he has said or done except to say "Fuck that guy". I used to consider Chris Kluwe a real stand up guy, he was a champion for equality and the equal treatment of women and sexual minorities in sports, and an outspoken advocate for people suffering from the aftereffects of concussions. And I was disappointed by his position on Gamergate and thought some of the things he has said have crossed the line from "discussion" to "attack", but everyone gets heated at times.

However, an article came out (which Kluwe said was "taken out of context", but didn't deny) that said that while an active NFL player he mocked a teammate who had come from Penn State about "paying his dues in the shower" and would do things like tear a small hole in the back of shorts and make cracks like "put it in, coach", which is mocking a child sex abuse scandal, and the victims of said scandal. So, yeah, like I said, fuck that guy.

and then in the very next thing you said talked about how it was wrong to attack 8 chan's creation and then involvement simply because of the worst of what they do. Surely you can see the hypocrisy present there.

He can attack 8chan all he wants; I have no time for 4chan or 8chan, chanology or chanculture. I think they're largely the diseased asshole of the internet. He just had his facts wrong about how 8chan was created, and seemed to be implying that 8chan was made because 4chan wouldn't allow gamergate and child porn. To me that seemed to imply a link between child porn and gamergate and I'm even less comfortable being associated with child porn than I am misogyny.

[apsham]

Troy Maskell: single-handedly keeping Kool-Aid in business.

Kool-Aid has nothing to do with my views. It's called common sense, you might want to use it one day, I hear it helps

There's no common sense in anything that you or any of the other GG people have been posting.

There is a really fucking simple bottom line here and it has to do with wishing and hoping. No matter how much you wish and hope like Bret Hart was your genine in a bottle, you CANNOT say "I support GamerGate but I don't support what their leadership does" because then you DO NOT SUPPORT GAMERGATE because you instead support an idea that they are in all reality NOT about.

What part of "we don't have a leader" do you not fucking understand?

By your assumption, you're saying if ONE person does something wrong and uses Gamergate as a hashtag then the whole movement is tainted. Meanwhile people like Wu, Sarkeesian and co are whipping up all this hatred, to the point where people are threatening to show up at PAX East with Sarin gas to "Kill all the Gamergaters" or Wu actively promotes giving away tickets to people who "throw down with Gamergaters" But that's okay right?

The hypocrisy of some people never ceases to amaze me

The sheer idiocy of a member named Troy Maskell never ceases to amaze me.

When people write articles about GamerGate they're no talking about Sean, they're not talking about whatever idea that you're talking about, they're talking about the people who are the loudest. They are talking about the people who are using the hashtag to create groups of people around them, they are talking about the faction of 8chan morons who are "fighting the cause" and if you seriously want to be associated with a bunch of people who congregate at a home for child pornography amongst other sketchy shit, all the good on you but I'm pretty much fucking done with someone who would rather fight and die on a hill instead of actually DOING something like anyone who has liked the purported idea of GamerGate after realizing what a load of shit it ended up being.

[The Lusophone]

You dismissed anything Chris Kluwe brought up on account of he made rape jokes

Uh, no I didn't, I literally made no comment on anything he has said or done except to say "Fuck that guy". I used to consider Chris Kluwe a real stand up guy, he was a champion for equality and the equal treatment of women and sexual minorities in sports, and an outspoken advocate for people suffering fomr the aftereffects of concussions. And I was disappointed by his position on Gamergate and thought some of the things he has said have crossed the line from "discussion" to "attack", but everyone gets heated at times.

However, an article came out (which Kluwe said was "taken out of context", but didn't deny) that said that while an active NFL player he mocked a teammate who had come from Penn State about "paying his dues in the shower" and would do things like tear a small hole in the back of shorts and make cracks like "put it in, couch", which is mocking a child sex abuse scandal, and the victims of said scandal. So, yeah, like I said, fuck that guy.

and then in the very next thing you said talked about how it was wrong to attack 8 chan's creation and then involvement simply because of the worst of what they do. Surely you can see the hypocrisy present there.

He can attack 8chan all he wants; I have no time for 4chan or 8chan, chanology or chanculture. I think they're largely the diseased asshole of the internet. He just had his facts wrong about how 8chan was created, and seemed to be implying that 8chan was made because 4chan wouldn't allow gamergate and child porn. To me that seemed to imply a link between child porn and gamergate and I'm even less comfortable being associated with child porn than I am misogyny.

I wasn't talking about why 8chan was created. I was commenting on where GamerGate found its new home after they were kicked off of 4chan. The fact that 8chan is a home to child porn is significant when GamerGaters either defend the fact that CP exists on there, or target those who exposed this fact, including doxxing them and making erroneous police reports about them.

Edit: 8chan mods and some GGers alike seem to be doing more about reporting and removing CP in the wake of it being mentioned/exposed/betterwordhere, and they should be commended for that. Alternatively they should probably try to find a different site to use, giving 8chans tendency to have its domain seized by either their hosts or by international law enforcement.

[Troy Maskell]

I'm done. At this point I'm screaming at a wall and all I'm going to end up doing is getting myself banned. You clearly will not see any other reason but what you want to believe and nothing I say or do will change that

I could post all examples of all the achievements we've had and it wouldn't matter because in your eyes "You're Gamergate, therefore you are a hate movement". Your biases will never allow you to have even the slightest hint of belief otherwise.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Troy Maskell

[SeanDMan]

I wasn't talking about why 8chan was created. I was commenting on where GamerGate found its new home after they were kicked off of 4chan. The fact that 8chan is a home to child porn is significant when GamerGaters either defend the fact that CP exists on there, or target those who exposed this fact, including doxxing them and making erroneous police reports about them.

You were talking about how it was created.

And, again, this has nothing to do with child porn. We can stop talking about child porn at any time. You're not going to find anyone in this topic who supports child porn so there's no need to try and link it to the current discussion.

[The Lusophone]

I wasn't talking about why 8chan was created. I was commenting on where GamerGate found its new home after they were kicked off of 4chan. The fact that 8chan is a home to child porn is significant when GamerGaters either defend the fact that CP exists on there, or target those who exposed this fact, including doxxing them and making erroneous police reports about them.

You were talking about how it was created.

No, I was talking about GamerGate being booted off of 4chan, not 8chan being booted off of 4chan...

[SeanDMan]

Hair splitting, but okay.

[Plubby]

I'm done. At this point I'm screaming at a wall and all I'm going to end up doing is getting myself banned. You clearly will not see any other reason but what you want to believe and nothing I say or do will change that

I could post all examples of all the achievements we've had and it wouldn't matter because in your eyes "You're Gamergate, therefore you are a hate movement". Your biases will never allow you to have even the slightest hint of belief otherwise.

If someone says "You haven't done this thing" and you say "I *could* talk about all the times we've done that thing!" and then not only not do that, but not even go into a little depth as to one of them, then you cannot hold anyone but yourself responsible for appearing to be completely making things up.

Please, link me to one time GG has found Jim Smith (substitute the name of the guy here) to have corporate ties to a company that he gave a favourable review to. Or anything of that ilk. I would sincerely dearly love to read about it. No one else in the history of anything ever has been able to find me one.

[SeanDMan]

http://gamergate.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/008-Censorship.png

http://gamergate.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/010-Nepotism.png

http://gamergate.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/012-Nepotism.png

http://gamergate.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/013-Cronyism.png

There's four. There's more.

[Plubby]

There's a particularly interesting one amongst those, but I would just like to point out that "Awards shows may not be giving awards based on merits!" might well be the biggest "NO FUCKING SHIT!" statement in history. EWB probably has the most transparent awards for games...