Superman 64 Discussion Thread

[Troy Maskell]

I think there's a few elements missing from the timeline though, everyone is focusing on the middle of 2014 and forgetting beforehand about Anita Sarkeesian and some of her videos that caused unrest in the gaming community. She raised some valid points about the need for larger representation of women in gaming, but used some fairly flawed ways of expressing them, namely that there were barely any female protagonists in video games which was fairly easy to dispute. She also made some good points about the total lack of women in development of games, and even now all it's has resulted in is more female community managers (people who run the forums) so that developers can pretend they care about equality.

Reviews giving unanimous praise for Depression Quest was the straw that broke the camels back because it's just a flat out awful game that seemed to get positive reviews entirely because it was created by a girl, and the strange thing about it all was that it wasn't just one review site giving it plenty of praise but a collection of gaming review sites, which made it feel like there was an underlying narritive revolving around it. Then it becomes an ethical debate of should you give a game like this a positive review because it's showing that women are coming out of the woodwork to make their own games, or should we slate it because it's a bad game and make it harder for women to get a foothold in the gaming industry.

Truth be told Petey, Sarkeesian has very little if anything to do with Gamergate, besides being lumped in with those who posted all the hate to her and such because of the Zoe Post, As you say Sarkeesian happened before Gamergate even began. Do she make good points? Of course she does, the "Damsel in Distress" trope is cliché, is there a need for more women in the industry? Probably yes. The problem with Sarkeesian is she will not talk to anyone who has counter points to her arguments, which riles people. Ultimately though Sarkeesian has little to nothing to do with the core issues the moderate Gamergaters want discussed.

As for Quinn the answer lies in the article I posted, there may not have been a REVIEW of the game by Nathan Greyson, but he did give it favourable coverage. That was the tipping point as you say, that and August 28

Edited February 22, 2015 by Troy Maskell

[Hobo]

My understanding of Depression Quest is that it is a game that attempts to illustrate what it is like to suffer from depression. That's a bit more of a higher concept than "game made by girl". Focusing on the idea that "game is not good by what I think game should be therefore people cannot like it so naturally girl must've used vagina and boobs to get good reviews" really narrows the scope of criticism and expression.

[Bobfoc]

I think there's a few elements missing from the timeline though, everyone is focusing on the middle of 2014 and forgetting beforehand about Anita Sarkeesian and some of her videos that caused unrest in the gaming community. She raised some valid points about the need for larger representation of women in gaming, but used some fairly flawed ways of expressing them, namely that there were barely any female protagonists in video games which was fairly easy to dispute. She also made some good points about the total lack of women in development of games, and even now all it's has resulted in is more female community managers (people who run the forums) so that developers can pretend they care about equality.

Reviews giving unanimous praise for Depression Quest was the straw that broke the camels back because it's just a flat out awful game that seemed to get positive reviews entirely because it was created by a girl, and the strange thing about it all was that it wasn't just one review site giving it plenty of praise but a collection of gaming review sites, which made it feel like there was an underlying narritive revolving around it. Then it becomes an ethical debate of should you give a game like this a positive review because it's showing that women are coming out of the woodwork to make their own games, or should we slate it because it's a bad game and make it harder for women to get a foothold in the gaming industry.

Truth be told Petey, Sarkeesian has very little if anything to do with Gamergate, besides being lumped in with those who posted all the hate to her and such because of the Zoe Post, As you say Sarkeesian happened before Gamergate even began. Do she make good points? Of course she does, the "Damsel in Distress" trope is cliché, is there a need for more women in the industry? Probably yes. The problem with Sarkeesian is she will not talk to anyone who has counter points to her arguments, which riles people. Ultimately though Sarkeesian has little to nothing to do with the core issues the moderate Gamergaters want discussed.

As for Quinn the answer lies in the article I posted, there may not have been a REVIEW of the game by Nathan Greyson, but he did give it favourable coverage. That was the tipping point as you say, that and August 28

Actually, this was the only article Grayson ever wrote that mentioned Quinn, and it's simply a summarised version of an article written for Indie Statik about a dishonestly pitched game-related reality show that involved Quinn, among others. Quinn is only described as "Depression Quest creator Zoe Quinn", and at no point is any opinion expressed about the game itself. .

[Troy Maskell]

I think there's a few elements missing from the timeline though, everyone is focusing on the middle of 2014 and forgetting beforehand about Anita Sarkeesian and some of her videos that caused unrest in the gaming community. She raised some valid points about the need for larger representation of women in gaming, but used some fairly flawed ways of expressing them, namely that there were barely any female protagonists in video games which was fairly easy to dispute. She also made some good points about the total lack of women in development of games, and even now all it's has resulted in is more female community managers (people who run the forums) so that developers can pretend they care about equality.

Reviews giving unanimous praise for Depression Quest was the straw that broke the camels back because it's just a flat out awful game that seemed to get positive reviews entirely because it was created by a girl, and the strange thing about it all was that it wasn't just one review site giving it plenty of praise but a collection of gaming review sites, which made it feel like there was an underlying narritive revolving around it. Then it becomes an ethical debate of should you give a game like this a positive review because it's showing that women are coming out of the woodwork to make their own games, or should we slate it because it's a bad game and make it harder for women to get a foothold in the gaming industry.

Truth be told Petey, Sarkeesian has very little if anything to do with Gamergate, besides being lumped in with those who posted all the hate to her and such because of the Zoe Post, As you say Sarkeesian happened before Gamergate even began. Do she make good points? Of course she does, the "Damsel in Distress" trope is cliché, is there a need for more women in the industry? Probably yes. The problem with Sarkeesian is she will not talk to anyone who has counter points to her arguments, which riles people. Ultimately though Sarkeesian has little to nothing to do with the core issues the moderate Gamergaters want discussed.

As for Quinn the answer lies in the article I posted, there may not have been a REVIEW of the game by Nathan Greyson, but he did give it favourable coverage. That was the tipping point as you say, that and August 28

Actually, this was the only article Grayson ever wrote that mentioned Quinn, and it's simply a summarised version of an article written for Indie Statik about a dishonestly pitched game-related reality show that involved Quinn, among others. Quinn is only described as "Depression Quest creator Zoe Quinn", and at no point is any opinion expressed about the game itself. .

Not true. He also mentioned on the site he worked for at the time RockPaperShotgun in an article about it getting greenlighted, not only mentioning it as a "Standout" game but including screenshots from it, the only game of 50 greenlighted games mentioned to have that privilege. Given the allegations and the fact he never disclosed the possible conflict of interest it's easy to come to the conclusion of favourable coverage

Even if it wasn't meant to be, all Greyson had to say was "My bad" and make a disclaimer, he does that and Gamergate dies there and then, of course that didn't happen which turned into August 28.

[apsham]

There's this:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/02/14/mostly-indescribable-depression-quest/

Which hardly lauds the game as anything but existing and being something that could effect people with depression. And this:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/01/08/admission-quest-valve-greenlights-50-more-games/

That mentions it along with two other games as being a standout in the group of 50 other games. Which it kind of was compared to those other ones. All the games were linked to.. the screenshot is a image holder for the post to be linked to. It hardly matters and it just looks like he used the same one as the Depression Quest post he had already made and likely already had access to. No big thing there.

[MDK]

The worst thing to come out of this thread is that I am playing Depression Quest and it's absolutely pants.

[SeanDMan]

Well serves you right you damn white knight.

[MDK]

It's pants. Not once does it ask 'Do you want to get absolutely Robert Downey Jr'nd on vodka and sleeping pills?'. Rubbish.

[lanky316]

Out of interest, does anyone know what's going on with the two men who developed Depression Quest with her? Have they just disappeared into the ether never to be seen? I'm not sure exactly what they did but they're credited in the game so assume they had some part.

[Troy Maskell]

It's pants. Not once does it ask 'Do you want to get absolutely Robert Downey Jr'nd on vodka and sleeping pills?'. Rubbish.

OMG! You misogynist. You should die with the rest of the Gators you pig!

[SeanDMan]

That mentions it along with two other games as being a standout in the group of 50 other games. Which it kind of was compared to those other ones. No big thing there.

Here is the issue though.

You might not think it is a big deal, but say someone reads that article and as a result, clicks through to buy the game. they did that, spent that money, without being aware of a connection between the dude who wrote it and the person who made it.

I was in the airport once, waiting for a ride back home. I sat next to a couple talking about their vacation, and how they still hadn't booked a hotel room for sunday night. Since I know the city I asked them where they were staying the friday saturday, what they wanted to see, etc.

Now, if I felt like it, I could have probably talked them into staying at the hotel where I work for that night, booked them a $90 room for $120, kept the $30 as a smart business business move (javert), and then got my ride. Instead I told them to take my advice with a grain of salt right off the bat, and eventually led them to a fancier and better located hotel.

It isn't a question of bias, or inpropriety, it is about avoiding the illusion of impropriety. If a wrestler posts on EWB about how great a show is they say they were in it to avoid looking like a shill. When Maxx or ga post movie reviews they make no attempt to hide that they wrote it and they deserve them adsense nickels. Disclosure is important because people can and will pay off peope in positions to do so to advertise their works. Payola was a huge scandal, now we have native advertising and youtube branding deals.

If grayson and Quinn were buddies, even if they hadn't bumped uglies yet, disclosure would have prevented this entire mess. Hey, disclosure, Zoe and I chat on MSN sometimes so I might be biased, but Depression Quest is the greatest vidya of all time~! Something simple like that.

[Troy Maskell]

If grayson and Quinn were buddies, even if they hadn't bumped uglies yet, disclosure would have prevented this entire mess. Hey, disclosure, Zoe and I chat on MSN sometimes so I might be biased, but Depression Quest is the greatest vidya of all time~! Something simple like that.

Exactly this. If Grayson had just gone back and put that in or just said something on RPS as a quick amendum, Gamergate dies in two days. What we got instead was August 28.

[SeanDMan]

I wish you'd stop quoting the date like that, we're talking about vidya games here, not guy fawkes and his anti-monarchy terrorism.

[Sousa]

But I thought Gamergate was about broader ethics concerns and not Zoe Quinn specifically.

[SeanDMan]

Again, a lot of the furor was kicked up by the zoe quinn stuff. It was when it first hit my radar for example. there is no doubt that if the zoe and nathan relationship either hadn't existed or had been disclosed properly, the thing would have fizzled out with only people who are angry that a woman would have sex were the only ones left with anything to talk about.

[apsham]

It's whatever fits the argument of the hour.

[Troy Maskell]

I wish you'd stop quoting the date like that, we're talking about vidya games here, not guy fawkes and his anti-monarchy terrorism.

Well, like Guy Fawkes and or anything, that date is...for lack of a better term, Genesis. That's where Gamergate began when the online media posted a huge ton of articles, all convieniently written to come out at the same time saying not only were they NOT going to investigate the concerns of some readers and consumers but also saying (Paraphrasing here) "Your kind is dead, you're all just misogynistic dudebros and we are leaving you behind. You don’t have to be the audience gaming or the industry caters to anymore."

Edited February 22, 2015 by Troy Maskell

[SeanDMan]

Ymmv, but I don't think "this is about more than zoe quinn" and "the reason most people first heard about it were because of zoe quinn and what happened with/to her" mean the same thing.

[MDK]

I think I'm on the side of Zoe Quinn. It turns out she is fairly attractive and the neckbeards on the other side don't do it for me.

GO FEMINISM! Or something. I am doing my part for the movement by only playing as female leaders in Civ V.

[Sousa]

I am doing my part for the movement by only playing as female leaders in Civ V.

#NotAllOttomen