2017 MLB Thread

[GhostMachine]

5 hours ago, Busch E said:

The PED guys definitely need to go in.  Bonds and Clemens were dominant as hell even before they got to the years where it was fair to question if they were using.  I see no reason to believe they wouldn't have put up HOF worthy numbers had they stayed clean.  And that's true for most of these guys, especially the hitters.  Steroids don't cause you to have amazing timing on these swings.

Since I was limited to 10, I needed to decide which PED guys to bump.  Manny's an obvious one because he was actually caught and suspended after testing went in place, multiple times even.  I can't see him ever going in for that reason because even amongst the PED guys him getting caught really stands out.  Makes me wonder what A-Rod's fate will be once he's eligible.

And I had to pick between Sosa and Sheffield.  Sosa hit more home runs but I think Sheffield was better all around and for a longer period of time so I went with him.

Oh and yes, I'll admit it.  Schilling would've made my 10 and I left him off entirely because of the vile shit he's been saying the past few years.  I know it has nothing to do with his baseball career and there are undoubtedly horrendous people in the HOF from the early years of baseball, but it's 2017 and I can't in good conscience reward a scumbag like that.  Even with unlimited votes I wouldn't check his name.

I completely forgot about Manny when I said who I'd vote for. Editing him out of my post.

I hear you about Schilling, but I look at it this way: If people didn't go in for their personalities and other things they've done, then Ty Cobb certainly wouldn't be in. That's one thing I hate about the Football Hall of Fame, because I believe the voters are holding Terrell Owens' antics against him. He certainly belongs in before Randy Moss. (T.O. was cocky; Moss was an asshole) Schilling was one of my favorite pitchers, but I don't deny he's a major scumbag.

 

[gunnar hendershow]

Well in terms of character I'm not really against Schilling going in since he's light years behind Cobb and Anson in terms of being an awful person, but I don't know if Schilling's career is really HOF-worthy. He's on that borderline for sure, but there are more compelling arguments for other players. Going back to character though, so many guys before the 1940's were outspoken racists. Anson is notorious and might be the biggest reason for segregation in the game. Early major league baseball rosters had black players, but by the end of Anson's career they did not. Ty Cobb was another racist and also possibly killed someone.

Also, we have a posting deal in place for Ohtani. Waiting for details but, uh, it's happening is the word.

[GhostMachine]

Oh, no one even comes close to Anson. In fact, I'd have no problem if at some point they decided to toss the racist motherfucker out of the HOF.

 

[The Buscher]

I'm not saying Schilling is worse than Anson or Cobb or any of those guys.  But I'm not gonna give him a pass and say "well we already allowed shitheads in, may as well keep going".  Change has to start somewhere.  And I'd be all for retroactively throwing someone like Anson out.

A small part of me would be tempted to vote against Chipper who is a lock to go in anyway because he called Sandy Hook a fraud.  But at least he walked back those comments.  Whether he walked them back simply to save face for himself is another question, but at least he recognized his comments were hurtful and apologized, something Schilling has never done.

[Meacon Keaton]

The thing about Schilling that, in my mind makes him just as bad as Anson or Cobb, is that those two were products on their times. I'll never say the things that they did or thought were okay, or that they should get a pass, but Schilling lives in a time with so much more knowledge (...kinda) and civility and understanding of people and things that he should know better. Bashing homosexuals and all the other idiotic shit that he spouts out in this day and age is pathetic. 

Fuck that fucking goober.

[gunnar hendershow]

I agree Schilling should absolutely know better. My only real point is the HOF celebrates Anson and Cobb, and surely a laundry list of other people who have less than positive stories. That's largely okay, a museum dedicated to the history of baseball should talk about its history whether good or bad. I am very uneasy with them putting him on a pedestal and giving him his time for sure, but they shouldn't erase him from the history of the game because he lost all his money being a shitty business owner and decided to take his frustrations out on marginalized people instead of look in the mirror and see he only has himself to blame.

[JPanare89]

I'm pretty much of the opinion that for the likes of the PED guys or a buffoon like Curt Schilling...let me decide for myself how I want to feel about them, how I want to talk to my kids about them.

The MLB Hall of Fame committee are not my parents or my moral compass.  I am capable of deciding for myself how to feel.  Just let me see the game's best in there. 

[GhostMachine]

If they want to put PED users in the Hall of Fame, they shouldn't go in unscathed/whitewashed, with no mention of their usage on their plaques.

But I think it would be bullshit if known users - actual cheaters - get in before Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose. 

 

[The Buscher]

One guy doing well in the early polling who I can't understand why people are so gung ho over:  Omar Vizquel.

His 2,877 hits aren't impressive considering he played 24 seasons.  For that matter, his offensive numbers are quite pedestrian considering the era he played in.  The 11 Gold Gloves sound nice, but he really only had a couple of really good defensive seasons and then kept getting handed the award on reputation, as is usually the case with Gold Gloves.

He's being compared to Ozzie Smith but that seems lazy as Ozzie was miles better defensively.  He was also a better hitter and stole a lot more bases than Vizquel.

[gunnar hendershow]

Ozzie is the greatest defensive player ever by a lot of metrics, Omar is more like Mark Belanger with slightly better offense and not as good defense.

[Mx. Canadian Destroyer]

Current state of the stove: frozen.

 

[GhostMachine]

On 11/25/2017 at 19:00, Busch E said:

One guy doing well in the early polling who I can't understand why people are so gung ho over:  Omar Vizquel.

His 2,877 hits aren't impressive considering he played 24 seasons.  For that matter, his offensive numbers are quite pedestrian considering the era he played in.  The 11 Gold Gloves sound nice, but he really only had a couple of really good defensive seasons and then kept getting handed the award on reputation, as is usually the case with Gold Gloves.

He's being compared to Ozzie Smith but that seems lazy as Ozzie was miles better defensively.  He was also a better hitter and stole a lot more bases than Vizquel.

Jim Rice played 16 years (all with the Red Sox), only had 2,452 hits, and 2 Silver Slugger awards, but led the AL in home runs 3 years. He got in on his last year of eligibility, and was considered a bubble player (ie, didn't matter if he got in or not) by many, including me. How Vizquel is doing well in the polling, is beyond me.Gold Gloves aside, he's not worthy of getting in yet.

[The Buscher]

I actually think Rice going in did matter in that it really highlighted some of the many problems with the voting process.  Not only did he go in on his 15th and final year on the ballot, he only barely cleared the 75% threshold.  And by that point it had been 20 years since his career ended.  It's not even a Raines situation where he had a clear HOF resume and it took stupidly long for him to go in, Rice was as borderline as it gets. What happened in two decades to suddenly decide such a borderline guy was worthy of being listed among the greatest player of all time?

That's how I feel about Vizquel really.  At no point did I watch him and think "I'm watching a future Hall of Famer".  He's a classic case of someone who should be in the Hall of Very Good.

[GhostMachine]

And him getting in over most of the other eligible players - not just the first year ones - would be utter bullshit.If at all. Vizquel should be a `lean year when there's not a lot of quality candidates....if his eligibilty hasn't run out yet, that is' induction. 

[gunnar hendershow]

The lean year thing bothers me the most with the HOF. Either a guy is a HOFer or not, nobody should wind up in because they're the best player on a bad ballot.

[GhostMachine]

To me, it's not someone getting in on a bad ballot so much as not getting in until there's not a maximum number of players more worthy on the ballot. 

[Your Mom]

White Sox signed Wellington Castillio

[Mx. Canadian Destroyer]

Current state of Hot Stove: slightly less frozen, but still incredibly frozen

[Meacon Keaton]

@GhostMachine who do you want to see us hire for manager? I’m nkt sure I trust Beltran or Boone, what with no managerial experience, but Thomson is such a boring choice. But I’m also not sure there is a better option out there right now. 

[Meacon Keaton]

3 hours ago, Meacon said:

@GhostMachine who do you want to see us hire for manager? I’m nkt sure I trust Beltran or Boone, what with no managerial experience, but Thomson is such a boring choice. But I’m also not sure there is a better option out there right now. 

Nevermind. Aaron F'ing Boone it is.