What's a musical hill you will die on?

[Benji]

Mine is that "Warning" is the best Green Day album and whilst Dookie and American Idiot are great albums that captured the zeitgeist, neither holds up as well as Warning does.

[Colly]

Solsbury.

[Hobo]

that if i only could id make a deal with god and get him to swap our places

[Bobfoc]

I think that 80s hair metal is fun and catchy.

[Schlitzbrille]

1 minute ago, Bobfoc said:

I think that 80s hair metal is fun and catchy.

Related, but this is IMO peak hair metal ballad:

 

[Krabby]

Carrie Underwood's Before He Cheats is one of the worst, IF NOT THE WORST, breakup/revenge songs of all time

[METALMAN]

Paul McCartney's frog song is a masterpiece, the highlight of his career and better than your favourite song. Everyone who hates on it just doesn't like to have fun.

The correction against rockism in music criticism was needed because a lot of very good pop music was unfairly dismissed, but we have over-corrected and there are far too many utter mediocrities celebrated as being something transcendent and special (see Taylor Swift) when all they really are is popular. I imagine there is probably a very strong correlation between the hostility of an artist's fanbase and the positivity of the reviews they receive.

These maybe don't qualify as hills I would die on because I am tired today and cba arguing them, but I certainly take a moderately firm view on both of them.

[Benji]

2 minutes ago, METALMAN said:

Paul McCartney's frog song is a masterpiece, the highlight of his career and better than your favourite song. Everyone who hates on it just doesn't like to have fun.

I got introduced to this song by someone at work years ago and it became an instant favourite. What monster does not like this song?

[Naitch]

28 minutes ago, METALMAN said:

utter mediocrities celebrated as being something transcendent and special (see Taylor Swift) when all they really are is popular

relevant to this:

[METALMAN]

Oh another thing I thought of is that nobody really knows how to write melodies in popular music anymore. To give an example, I'm going to pick on Levitating by Dua Lipa here. Which I feel quite bad about because I like Dua Lipa's music and she seems like a cool person. And I really like Levitating. But it doesn't really have a tune. We like it for the groove and the rhythm.

Dua Lipa has been on record saying she doesn't play any musical instruments but she also has a songwriting credit for Levitating. So I assume what happened here might be something like Dua Lipa gets up to the mic and doo doo doos or ad libs some words and the band/her producer builds a backing track around that. Or maybe the other way round, maybe there is already a backing track which she ad libs along too. However,  this approach doesn't lead to particularly elaborate melodies because you naturally just follow the path of least resistance and sing the notes of the chord, moving up or down a step at a time. See this for example:

So we start with "If you wanna" - four notes, all the same. All F# which is one of the notes of the Bm7 chord. Then we move down a step to E for four notes, down a step to D for four and finish the bar on C#, one of the notes of the F#m7 chord. Then we move down a step to B for five notes, one of the notes of the Em7 chord, down a step for two notes to A then move up to a B and finish the phrase back where we started on a Bm7 chord, which B obviously is a note of. Then we do the same thing again for two bars, with a very minor change. And then I run out of sheet music that is freely available but you know how the rest of the song goes: it is similarly limited in terms of melody.

So we're not listening to the song because it is particularly elaborate. We're listening to it for the rhythmic aspects, because it has a nice bouncy baseline, because the yeah yeah yeah bits are fun, because there are some cool little production sparkles. But it is quite odd, when you think about it, that what you might intuitively think of as the main part of the song - the melody, the tune - is basically nothing.

And like I said, I like this song and I like Ms Lipa so I feel bad for singling her out. I was just trying to think of a recent song that a big chunk of us would know. And, to be honest, you can go and listen to your favourite song and realise there isn't that much melody. And that's fine. Moving to rock bands, they also tend to come up with songs in a similar way to how I assumed Dua Lipa does earlier: the band noodle around and the singer will ad lib a melody on top, which tends to be quite limited.

As an aside, I think a lot of this is because popular music, even now, is so heavily based on the blues and that is not music about melodic intricacy. It's about yelling along to the most basic chord sequence there is - again, I like the blues so don't take this as an insult.

So this is hardly new. Go and listen to Reach Out I'll Be There by the Four Tops. Brilliant song, but there is hardly any melody. We like it for the sound - that insistent bass, the drums pushing everything forward, those little flutes and most of all the singer sounding like he is tearing his vocal cords apart. Talking Heads are one of my favourite bands ever but I can't think of a single song of theirs that has anything approaching a tune. It's mostly just shouting. More recently we've taken our lack of interest in melody to its logical endpoint, with the widespread prevalence of rap music.

But still. But still. I think a bit of melody would be nice. In the last sixty years or so, songwriters - proper songwriters who treat is as a craft and write actual melodies - are astonishingly rare. I'm thinking of Paul McCartney, Brian Wilson, Carole King, James Taylor, Paul Simon, Benny and Bjorn. There aren't very many here. But this makes sense: writing a good, original, memorable melody is hard. Not having a melody isn't so hard.

Whereas it used to be much more common. Let's look at Dove Sono I Bei Momenti by Mozart from the opera the Marriage of Figaro. I know a lot of people don't like opera but this is a hell of a melody SO JUST LISTEN TO IT.

See how the melody jumps around, moves in unexpected directions, avoids repetition? If this was a modern day pop song, after the "Dove song i bei momenti" phrase at the start you would expect the next phrase to just repeat the exact same tune with different words, like Levitating does. But this one gives us a completely different melody instead. There is rhythmic variation as well. Levitating by Dua Lipa follows the beat. It starts off by dividing the bar into quavers (eighth notes if you're American). Here, you can see there are dotted notes, rest phases and so on. You don't have to like this, but it is certainly a melody. We have dynamic variation here too: some phrases are quiet, others are loud.

You see a lot of this in the Great American Songbook. I Get A Kick Of You by Cole Porter is a masterpiece. Y

You have rhythmic variation - triplets! You have the melody taking little steps and big jumps! You have accidentals (see the little flat and sharp signs in the melody) when the melody moves away from the initial key for a bit. You have it mirroring the sentiments of the song a little bit - see the downward steps on "leaves me totally cold". 

So, something I should say here is that it isn't just the melody that makes a melody interesting. One Note Samba has a melody that is just one note, but the harmony shifting underneath is means that it sounds a bit different each time but I think I've droned on long enough with out going into harmony so I'll leave it there. Sorry for the long post. I don't even know what hill I'm proposing to die on here. That there aren't really melodies anymore I guess. And that I need to stop procrastinating and get back to work.

 

[Naitch]

Blink-182 with Matt Skiba is better than Blink-182 with Tom DeLonge.

[Benji]

1 hour ago, Naitch said:

Blink-182 with Matt Skiba is better than Blink-182 with Tom DeLonge.

Second. I like the new songs, but they feel like a step backwards.

[Mick]

System of a Down is fucking awful, nobody should listen to them and you'll only change my opinion with a large sack with a giant dollar sign on it, stuffed with $20s, $50s and $100s. 

 

 

Come on guys, prove me wrong  

[GhostMachine]

11 hours ago, SPQR said:

Related, but this is IMO peak hair metal ballad:

 

I'll see that, and raise you a

 

11 hours ago, Krabby said:

Carrie Underwood's Before He Cheats is one of the worst, IF NOT THE WORST, breakup/revenge songs of all time

I concur, but only because I watch court shows. Judge Judy (now Judy Justice *) would probably side with her, but others would have a field day with this, when the guy in the song sues her in court. Carving her name into hs leather seats = smoking gun.

*The Judy Justice show is better than the Judge Judy was. Byrd is now on Tribunal Justice, where one of the judges is Judy's son.

11 hours ago, Hobo said:

that if i only could id make a deal with god and get him to swap our places

I probably have more covers of that song (and two or three versions by Kate Bush) than any other. The Placebo version is not among those, as I do not care for it.

[METALMAN]

This is the only version you need

 

[RPS]

21 hours ago, METALMAN said:

The correction against rockism in music criticism was needed because a lot of very good pop music was unfairly dismissed, but we have over-corrected and there are far too many utter mediocrities celebrated as being something transcendent and special (see Taylor Swift) when all they really are is popular. I imagine there is probably a very strong correlation between the hostility of an artist's fanbase and the positivity of the reviews they receive.

I agree with this to some extent. I think the industry and music criticism course corrected to cover, promote, review, feature, interview etc. non-rock so much, that it has in many ways just led to an identity crisis in music and led to it being pop music (the genre, not the popularity definition) focused. I think there has been added significant benefits- hip hop music is far more popular, kpop is now a mainstream genre, Latin music has exploded over the last decade, etc. But what I find interesting is that all that attention and focus the industry has given genres has put pop music in the same place rock music was 20 years ago. Not a lot of innovation, sameness, legacy acts, fixation on formulas, etc. Taylor Swift is this generations U2.

But I think the core root of it is the same - most people like comfort music, things that sound similar and is safe. Most people want their music to be fine or good or comforting. Most people's relationship to music is not finding the next band or album that will change your life like is depicted in the movie Almost Famous. They want to hear the next U2 album or now the next Taylor Swift album because it's safe and comforting. I also think much of the current stagnation of pop music being dominate is the industry consolidating all in one.

The industry is so safe these days because the record labels are so close to the touring apparatus which are so close to Ticketmaster, etc. Taylor Swift is a proven draw, so she is pushed as the top baby face because we know she'll sell out venues and move merchandise.  Why take a chance on something new when it's so hard to break through to people without an MTV or large audiences listening to radio or so forth. I think it just so happens that pop music is much easier to market in this way than rock music and rock music has wilted. Pop music is focused on one person who doesn't need a whole lot of musical talent and who doesn't need to be able to write songs but instead becomes a vessel for their own ideas or beliefs or a sound that is generated by a team of writers or producers. Admittedly, this could happen to a band and does.  But it's harder to wrangle 4 cats who may have differing views about their music vs 1 who likes music and connecting with fans but whom also really wants to be famous. A record label probably just loves having Dua Lipa because there probably isn't a whole lot of agency in the matter and she's probably incredibly happy singing the sugary sweet pop songs given to her. 

[Dan B.]

On 28/09/2023 at 09:16, Bobfoc said:

I think that 80s hair metal is fun and catchy.

Second that.  To quote The Wrestler, "Like there's something wrong with having a good time."  One of the presets in my car is set to Hair Nation.

One I've had since high school: Blues Traveler ruled.  Their '90s studio output, the first five albums from when Bobby Sheehan was still alive, were amazing.  Their albums since have been a little more hit-and-miss IMO but they've still had some good stuff.  

Dunno how controversial this one is, but Train have routinely some of the most fascinatingly-bad lyrics I've ever heard.  I've thought that if I somehow got roped into doing standup comedy, one of my routines would just a line-by-line analysis of "Hey Soul Sister."

[Schlitzbrille]

53 minutes ago, Dan B. said:

Second that.  To quote The Wrestler, "Like there's something wrong with having a good time."  One of the presets in my car is set to Hair Nation.

Same here.

Presets in my last car (that weren't those of the legal owner) were Liquid Metal, Hair Nation, Siriusly Sinatra, and 50's Gold (only because my car couldn't tune into Faction)

[METALMAN]

5 hours ago, RPS said:

I agree with this to some extent. I think the industry and music criticism course corrected to cover, promote, review, feature, interview etc. non-rock so much, that it has in many ways just led to an identity crisis in music and led to it being pop music (the genre, not the popularity definition) focused. I think there has been added significant benefits- hip hop music is far more popular, kpop is now a mainstream genre, Latin music has exploded over the last decade, etc. But what I find interesting is that all that attention and focus the industry has given genres has put pop music in the same place rock music was 20 years ago. Not a lot of innovation, sameness, legacy acts, fixation on formulas, etc. Taylor Swift is this generations U2.

But I think the core root of it is the same - most people like comfort music, things that sound similar and is safe. Most people want their music to be fine or good or comforting. Most people's relationship to music is not finding the next band or album that will change your life like is depicted in the movie Almost Famous. They want to hear the next U2 album or now the next Taylor Swift album because it's safe and comforting. I also think much of the current stagnation of pop music being dominate is the industry consolidating all in one.

The industry is so safe these days because the record labels are so close to the touring apparatus which are so close to Ticketmaster, etc. Taylor Swift is a proven draw, so she is pushed as the top baby face because we know she'll sell out venues and move merchandise.  Why take a chance on something new when it's so hard to break through to people without an MTV or large audiences listening to radio or so forth. I think it just so happens that pop music is much easier to market in this way than rock music and rock music has wilted. Pop music is focused on one person who doesn't need a whole lot of musical talent and who doesn't need to be able to write songs but instead becomes a vessel for their own ideas or beliefs or a sound that is generated by a team of writers or producers. Admittedly, this could happen to a band and does.  But it's harder to wrangle 4 cats who may have differing views about their music vs 1 who likes music and connecting with fans but whom also really wants to be famous. A record label probably just loves having Dua Lipa because there probably isn't a whole lot of agency in the matter and she's probably incredibly happy singing the sugary sweet pop songs given to her. 

Yeah, absolutely.

I wonder if the growth of streaming services has had a role in this consolidation. I don't have any data so this is little more than a hunch, but it seems to me that streaming platforms - and especially Spotify.- are very keen to drive people to a relatively small number of acts, even though pretty much all the recorded music is there languishing in the back of their website. I mean, if you want to avoid Taylor Swift at all costs you can easily shape your Spotify algorithm to do that, but for the casual consumer it's all about these playlists that are tightly controlled by the major record labels.

And obviously tight control from labels is nothing new, but these days we only have three major record labels and if any one of them decides to pull the plug Spotify is doomed. I'm singling Spotify out here because Apple, Amazon and Youtube have other revenue streams, but Spotify really have to do what they're told here.

[Hobo]

I've never really used Spotify personally. I'm also kinda settled into just listening to the same musicians I've listened to for the last 15 years and I don't really buy many albums anymore. At most, I buy 1 album a year. So don't really know what hill I would die on.

I like Garth Brooks' In The Life of Chris Gaines more than I really like any of his other work. But it's not great. So I'm not willing to die on the hill.

I might be willing to die on the hill of "Billy Joel's best album is Glass Houses". Sleeping With The Television is probably one of his best lesser-known songs.

I'm a firm believer that Johnny Cash's cover of Hurt and the album it comes from are just OK. It's certainly got a really impactful music video The album before that American III: Solitary Man is much better. The song choices are overall much stronger and his voice hasn't deterorated quite as much from ill health.