*SPOILERS* The Dark Knight *SPOILERS*

[Mike Ockizitchy]

I really hate how people talk about not recasting the Joker, like it's forever locked away as Heath Ledger's baby. Not that you (Jairus) are saying that, but when people talk about it, its like he has it trademarked. I mean don't get me wrong, I loved his performance just as much as any of you, but its unrealistic to think it wont and shouldn't be done. They're a major production company with smart people working in casting. I'm sure they'll make a fine choice. Plus I think, like said above, there's way to much left between Batman and Joker to be told. If you close that door, you're screwing yourself over. I think they shouuld and will recast it.

[apsham]

I don't think that they should NEVER EVER use the Joker again, but if they were only thinking about making this a three movie trilogy like I've heard (correct me if I am wrong) then perhaps, they shouldn't... just for the final one. If someone else steps up and starts making Batman movies, sure why not... especially if it's out of canon to the Nolanverse... but eh, it's just personal preference.

[Mike Ockizitchy]

Nolan will only do three, that's what he has said, I'm almost sure of that. Maybe someone has a link to the interview he said it in? Bale said the same thing, he'll do it as long as Nolan does I believe. I think they could be convinced to do a fourth if the third ones good. I don't think this series should end after three, just because Nolan leaves. He's built such a superb world that it's almost foolish to not keep making them. I mean, you don't have to pump them out every year or two years, but let a constant world and stories build. Let villians come and go, ala the Joker, he could take a movie off and come back. Just my thoughts.

But it did work for Harry Potter, and the Bonds, they all make a bunch.

[HeartlineTwist]

I still think it's completely possible and logical for the Riddler to be used in the next movie without it being the Mr. Reese character.

As for why the Penguin would be a problematic character: Where's the fucking menace to him at the point where he's just a mob boss that looks funny and acts sort of like a penguin? That's probably why he wouldn't work well in Nolan's universe. As a background character, sure. But he'd never be able to carry a movie as the main villain short of a radical redesign by Nolan.

[Bigal]

Just finished skimming a script of the movie, which looks like pretty much the final draft. The main point of interest are the little nuances that were added to The Joker that weren't on the page. For the most part, it's just that a couple of scenes are a little longer.

[apsham]

Okay, here's a really good conversation point. I was watching this movie with a girl at the theatres last night and she pointed out something I would've never noticed;

Why the fuck is the mayor wearing eyeliner?

[E-C-Bub]

Okay, here's a really good conversation point. I was watching this movie with a girl at the theatres last night and she pointed out something I would've never noticed;

Why the fuck is the mayor wearing eyeliner?

He's not. Those are his actual dark eyelashes. I think they're purrty.

[Maxx]

Okay so other than The Killing Joke and the two new Batman movies... I've really been out of the loops on Batman for quite a long time. I keep hearing how The Penguin wouldn't fit in a more realistic approach to the Batman universe... Why is that? I mean, isn't he just like... a mob boss with a big fuckin nose and a waddle or something to that extent? What is it that is so unrealistic about him because I really cannot remember.

EDIT: And upon doing some research on the character, I really see nothing unrealistic about it. He's short, fat, and has a big noise. He has high tech umbrellas with guns in them and dresses fancy. Okay? The deformities weren't originally in the comics. They used them in Batman Returns, and then they were adopted by the comics and cartoons. He's basically a "classy" criminal. I think if done the way his character is intended to be, he would fit just fine in Nolan's Batman universe.

The problem being that the first two movies showed the rise and fall of organized crime in Gotham. Batman has all but wiped it out at this point, which is supposed to make way for the freaks and monsters. I highly doubt we'll see a mob type character as anything more than background noise in future installments. Whatever villains they do use, will most likely come from the rogues gallery, and take some minor-to-major tweaking before they can logically fit into the universe Nolan has crafted.

So while I wouldn't rule any character out based on levels of realism, because Nolan will tinker until it works, I would rule out the major use of any character who would be a part of organized crime.

True, BUT... the "white knight" of Gotham that had a major hand in disposing of all organized crime in Gotham... is no more. With the almighty Harvey Dent gone and the police's forces all focused on bringing in Batman, it leaves plenty of space for a new crime lord to emerge, which could potentially usher in Penguin.

The way I look at it, we could potentially see one to five villains in the next movie, with anything more than three being absolute over kill.

1. There is still a HUGE amount of story to tell with The Joker should they decide to recast him, which might cause some bickering.

2. Should they go the route of Joker being locked up in Arkham, there is the chase of developing the character of Harley Quinn.

3. If Mr. Reese was indeed intended to be a new set up for the introduction of The Riddler, I think that could work out rather well. Just keep in mind that his name "Mr. Reese" or whatever his first name was, could simply be a fake name anyway. There are multiple ways around that snag.

4. Two Face could very well be alive. They only said that Harvey Dent had died... and by all accounts and purposes, he had.

5. With Dent no longer erradicating the underground crime world in Gotham, it opens up the opportunity for new crime lord, such as Penguin to emerge.

I don't know, all of those options I think fit quite well into Nolan's universe. I highly doubt we're going to see people such as Killer Croc or Clayface, or even Bane or Mr. Freeze this time around. I'd be shocked if Two Face doesn't somehow play a major role in the next movie, as well as another cameo from Scarecrow, along with the introduction of at least one new character... unless of course they DO recast Joker...

ITS NOT ITS NOT ITS NOT ITS NOT JESUS FUCKING CHRIST ITS NOT LET IT GO.

Oh I know Bruce Wayne is Batman, oh wow he saved my life. Lets fuck with him. Yeah thats some spectacular character development right there, clearly thats the direction they're going. And clearly its going to be the same guy because Josh Harto is definately the guy Warner Brothers wants on the posters for the follow up to one of the highest grossing films of all time.

Edited August 24, 2008 by Maxx

[apsham]

Part of me wants it to be, just so I can see Maxx explode.

[E-C-Bub]

Okay so other than The Killing Joke and the two new Batman movies... I've really been out of the loops on Batman for quite a long time. I keep hearing how The Penguin wouldn't fit in a more realistic approach to the Batman universe... Why is that? I mean, isn't he just like... a mob boss with a big fuckin nose and a waddle or something to that extent? What is it that is so unrealistic about him because I really cannot remember.

EDIT: And upon doing some research on the character, I really see nothing unrealistic about it. He's short, fat, and has a big noise. He has high tech umbrellas with guns in them and dresses fancy. Okay? The deformities weren't originally in the comics. They used them in Batman Returns, and then they were adopted by the comics and cartoons. He's basically a "classy" criminal. I think if done the way his character is intended to be, he would fit just fine in Nolan's Batman universe.

The problem being that the first two movies showed the rise and fall of organized crime in Gotham. Batman has all but wiped it out at this point, which is supposed to make way for the freaks and monsters. I highly doubt we'll see a mob type character as anything more than background noise in future installments. Whatever villains they do use, will most likely come from the rogues gallery, and take some minor-to-major tweaking before they can logically fit into the universe Nolan has crafted.

So while I wouldn't rule any character out based on levels of realism, because Nolan will tinker until it works, I would rule out the major use of any character who would be a part of organized crime.

True, BUT... the "white knight" of Gotham that had a major hand in disposing of all organized crime in Gotham... is no more. With the almighty Harvey Dent gone and the police's forces all focused on bringing in Batman, it leaves plenty of space for a new crime lord to emerge, which could potentially usher in Penguin.

The way I look at it, we could potentially see one to five villains in the next movie, with anything more than three being absolute over kill.

1. There is still a HUGE amount of story to tell with The Joker should they decide to recast him, which might cause some bickering.

2. Should they go the route of Joker being locked up in Arkham, there is the chase of developing the character of Harley Quinn.

3. If Mr. Reese was indeed intended to be a new set up for the introduction of The Riddler, I think that could work out rather well. Just keep in mind that his name "Mr. Reese" or whatever his first name was, could simply be a fake name anyway. There are multiple ways around that snag.

4. Two Face could very well be alive. They only said that Harvey Dent had died... and by all accounts and purposes, he had.

5. With Dent no longer erradicating the underground crime world in Gotham, it opens up the opportunity for new crime lord, such as Penguin to emerge.

I don't know, all of those options I think fit quite well into Nolan's universe. I highly doubt we're going to see people such as Killer Croc or Clayface, or even Bane or Mr. Freeze this time around. I'd be shocked if Two Face doesn't somehow play a major role in the next movie, as well as another cameo from Scarecrow, along with the introduction of at least one new character... unless of course they DO recast Joker...

ITS NOT ITS NOT ITS NOT ITS NOT JESUS FUCKING CHRIST ITS NOT LET IT GO.

Oh I know Bruce Wayne is Batman, oh wow he saved my life. Lets fuck with him. Yeah thats some spectacular character development right there, clearly thats the direction they're going. And clearly its going to be the same guy because Josh Harto is definately the guy Warner Brothers wants on the posters for the follow up to one of the highest grossing films of all time.

Now you're just assuming The Riddler will be the main character, which was never even confirmed, and can't be because there is no script even being written right now. Its assumption. Hell, maybe the Riddler will be in the next movie, but not be the main bad guy, thus, a bigger name will get on the poster. And frankly, Warner Bros can put the batman logo on a solid black background, with the title and date, and people will flock.

[JairusCain]

Okay so other than The Killing Joke and the two new Batman movies... I've really been out of the loops on Batman for quite a long time. I keep hearing how The Penguin wouldn't fit in a more realistic approach to the Batman universe... Why is that? I mean, isn't he just like... a mob boss with a big fuckin nose and a waddle or something to that extent? What is it that is so unrealistic about him because I really cannot remember.

EDIT: And upon doing some research on the character, I really see nothing unrealistic about it. He's short, fat, and has a big noise. He has high tech umbrellas with guns in them and dresses fancy. Okay? The deformities weren't originally in the comics. They used them in Batman Returns, and then they were adopted by the comics and cartoons. He's basically a "classy" criminal. I think if done the way his character is intended to be, he would fit just fine in Nolan's Batman universe.

The problem being that the first two movies showed the rise and fall of organized crime in Gotham. Batman has all but wiped it out at this point, which is supposed to make way for the freaks and monsters. I highly doubt we'll see a mob type character as anything more than background noise in future installments. Whatever villains they do use, will most likely come from the rogues gallery, and take some minor-to-major tweaking before they can logically fit into the universe Nolan has crafted.

So while I wouldn't rule any character out based on levels of realism, because Nolan will tinker until it works, I would rule out the major use of any character who would be a part of organized crime.

True, BUT... the "white knight" of Gotham that had a major hand in disposing of all organized crime in Gotham... is no more. With the almighty Harvey Dent gone and the police's forces all focused on bringing in Batman, it leaves plenty of space for a new crime lord to emerge, which could potentially usher in Penguin.

The way I look at it, we could potentially see one to five villains in the next movie, with anything more than three being absolute over kill.

1. There is still a HUGE amount of story to tell with The Joker should they decide to recast him, which might cause some bickering.

2. Should they go the route of Joker being locked up in Arkham, there is the chase of developing the character of Harley Quinn.

3. If Mr. Reese was indeed intended to be a new set up for the introduction of The Riddler, I think that could work out rather well. Just keep in mind that his name "Mr. Reese" or whatever his first name was, could simply be a fake name anyway. There are multiple ways around that snag.

4. Two Face could very well be alive. They only said that Harvey Dent had died... and by all accounts and purposes, he had.

5. With Dent no longer erradicating the underground crime world in Gotham, it opens up the opportunity for new crime lord, such as Penguin to emerge.

I don't know, all of those options I think fit quite well into Nolan's universe. I highly doubt we're going to see people such as Killer Croc or Clayface, or even Bane or Mr. Freeze this time around. I'd be shocked if Two Face doesn't somehow play a major role in the next movie, as well as another cameo from Scarecrow, along with the introduction of at least one new character... unless of course they DO recast Joker...

ITS NOT ITS NOT ITS NOT ITS NOT JESUS FUCKING CHRIST ITS NOT LET IT GO.

Oh I know Bruce Wayne is Batman, oh wow he saved my life. Lets fuck with him. Yeah thats some spectacular character development right there, clearly thats the direction they're going. And clearly its going to be the same guy because Josh Harto is definately the guy Warner Brothers wants on the posters for the follow up to one of the highest grossing films of all time.

Now you're just assuming The Riddler will be the main character, which was never even confirmed, and can't be because there is no script even being written right now. Its assumption. Hell, maybe the Riddler will be in the next movie, but not be the main bad guy, thus, a bigger name will get on the poster. And frankly, Warner Bros can put the batman logo on a solid black background, with the title and date, and people will flock.

Didn't they do that for some of the Dark Knight promotional material? lol

I still think it's completely possible and logical for the Riddler to be used in the next movie without it being the Mr. Reese character.

As for why the Penguin would be a problematic character: Where's the fucking menace to him at the point where he's just a mob boss that looks funny and acts sort of like a penguin? That's probably why he wouldn't work well in Nolan's universe. As a background character, sure. But he'd never be able to carry a movie as the main villain short of a radical redesign by Nolan.

I guess I should have specified that I was thinking more along the lines of Penguin being a secondary character while (if he actually survived, which I still think is very possible) Two Face, or The Joker (via contacts while he is locked inside of arkham) is the one pulling the strings.

Edited August 24, 2008 by JairusCain

[Maxx]

Yes, lets just be blissfully ignorant of how Hollywood works. Because villians aren't ever the focal point of promotion for superhero movies, outside of the first installment.

Love how you all ignore the giant fucking plot hole that would exist when using a guy who Batman nearly killed himself to save, as the next villian. "Hmm shit's gone crazy in the city I live in, there's psychopaths out there killing just cause it amuses them. Yeah, I'm gonna go fuck over the guy thats protecting people like me from stuff like that." Not to mention how absolutely fan boy bullshit desperate the whole "Mr. Reese" crap is. It only works if your specifically trying to make it sound like "mysteries"

Use a guy who knows who Batman is, and you skipped to what was the end of Riddler as a villian in the comics. The biggest riddle is "Who is Batman" A man obsessed with riddles would be dying to figure that out.

In the comics, when Riddler finally figured out who Batman was, Batman had no reason to fear him. He simply asked him "What time is it when an elephant sits on your fence?" Time to get a new fence, its an answer everyone knows. And what good is a riddle if everyone knows the answer?

Edited August 24, 2008 by Maxx

[livid]

Maxx, you bring up good points.

The problem occurs when you act like you know more than they do. For all we know, it WAS intended to be a hint. I don't think it is, but that doesn't mean I'm not wrong either.

If I were betting on it, I'd be inclined to agree with you but you seem to be taking it almost personally when someone brings that up. If they're ignorant, stupid, etc. let them be.

I really don't understand how you're getting so worked up about it.

[I Don't Mind]

Magnifique!

[Maxx]

Maxx, you bring up good points.

The problem occurs when you act like you know more than they do. For all we know, it WAS intended to be a hint. I don't think it is, but that doesn't mean I'm not wrong either.

If I were betting on it, I'd be inclined to agree with you but you seem to be taking it almost personally when someone brings that up. If they're ignorant, stupid, etc. let them be.

I really don't understand how you're getting so worked up about it.

Um, I'm not. Everyone seems to think like I get pissed off about this and then sit around all day stewing over it. I'm annoyed it kept coming up, especially when I listed plenty of reason why it wouldn't work and why it doesn't make sense, only for that to completely ignored and in a few weeks we're back to "OMG Mr. Reese= Mysteries!"

I act like I know more because no one seems to actually be throwing out this stuff with any basis in reality. We all should know how Hollywood works, we should know its completely absurd to think the main villian of the next Batman movie is going to be a C List actor, especially when the film its following is one of the highest grossing of all time.

I can accept not everyone is a Batman expert, but really there's no way you can logically assume that the next Batman movie won't feature A-List talent as the villians. They aren't going to hand the reighns of one of the films focal points to a guy who's never had even had a major supporting role in a movie. Its completely illogical and it flies in the face of not only the established way Hollywood works, but it flies in the face of how this Batman franchise works.

I'd say more, but Livid seems to be one of the only people that reads this. So hi Livid, I'm going to be annoyed when people completely ignore what I pointed out about The Riddler in my last post and how it makes absolutely no sense for the character to start out knowing who Batman is. Lets wait and see.

Edited August 24, 2008 by Maxx

[alldaws1]

Dear God Maxx, he said IF. If people want to speculate, let them speculate and you can sit in your corner laughing to yourself about how much more intelligent you are than everybody else.

[Maxx]

Oh my god, I'm a dick. I thought I established this, I really don't understand why people still get mad about me being a prick when I think people are wrong.

I was pretty reserved the first time I went over all this shit, but it was almost completely ignored, so I'm going to get more vindictive about it

Edited August 24, 2008 by Maxx

[Crybaby Bunting]

The thing about Mr Reese was that it was a small subplot without having to dig into the Batman franchise, it was one of those little continuty things in films that was given closure at the end. Think of it as not dissimilar to a running gag (off the top of my head "I'm freeeee" from Hunchback of Notre Dam)

I dont understand why everyone is automatically thinking more into it, it was a little aside that had nothing to do with the film: yes it could essentially be used as a pick-up in future films but that'd be so weak that the person would be no more than a 3 minute long lackey.

[livid]

Hey, I agree, it's extremely far-fetched that that was how it was intended but it's speculation. And when anything is waited upon like the next Batman movie (or for that matter, the NFL season is also a prime example), speculation occurs. Not all of is it right, not all of is it wrong...hell, not all of it even makes sense but people are going to do it.

But ya' know, crazier things have happened in Hollywood before. I mean, did you honestly think that Brandon Routh would be the guy that they pegged to be the latest Superman? And while it ultimately flopped, it's still a decision that was arguably as absurd as the Mr. Reese idea.

But like I said, I don't think Mr. Reese is going to be The Riddler. Hell, we're not even sure that The Riddler's going to be in the next movie, let alone Mr. Reese.

But I don't see how them speculating on it isn't harmless. Sure it may be ignorant and it may be far-fetched but what else are people going to talk about? How it's now fourth in the box office for this past weekend? While it's relevant, it's hardly an engaging conversation.

[Maxx]

Unknowns are never cast as villians. Heroes, all the time, villians never. Why? Because A listers want to play the villians, hollywood knows that. You really think if Warner had the choice between having Josh Harto or Johnny Depp headline as the star of their next film that there would be even 5 seconds of debate?