Official Premier League 2009/10 thread

[IAceI]

So given this is Blackburn and Burnleys biggest match, does that mean Ewood Park won't be a morgue for once?

[Crybaby Bunting]

It will be afterwards

[IAceI]

bwahahahah. What a goal.

Mr. Burnley Robbie Blake's goal is equalised by Mr. Blackburn David Dunn?

Who scripted this shit?

Edited October 18, 2009 by IAceI

[stokeriño]

Fucking hell, di Santo scored a Premier League goal.

[Crybaby Bunting]

What is this I don't even

[Hobo]

I also feel vindicated cos I'd mentioned that at the start of the season - every season since Benitez has taken over the squad has gotten worse and worse. Speaking historically only a few of the current squad I would rate as "proper" Liverpool players - Gerrard, Torres, Reina, Carragher from a couple of seasons ago....then, erm, Kuyt and Johnson are alright.

When Benitez took over Dijmi Traore was a Liverpool player. Your argument is negated

I will agree the squad is thin but I don't fully think it's Rafa's fault. Rockbox is probably able to give a better answer than me to this but I would believe that those above Rafa are at greater fault than Rafa for any of Liverpool's woes. Even with a thin squad Rafa has managed to get Liverpool to second in the table (more or less with out Torres), an FA Cup, the Champions League (with a squad where the best player was Steven Gerrard) and reach another Champions League final.

Losing Alonso has lost us our best player, I admit that. Incidentally it's all rather serendipitous that after trailing off for a season or two and almost being sold that Alonso would have his best season before Real came calling to whisk him away (and who could blame him for not taking the chance to do so?). Whether Alberto Aquilani will be a decent replacement we don't know yet. However Lucas is no replacement (and I expect a fit Aquilani will take Lucas' place in the squad) I have personally softened on Lucas but he's still not someone I would like to have as first choice CM at Liverpool.

It is the loss of Xabi Alonso that has caused Liverpool a lot of trouble in midfield. Although Jamie Carragher is person who can shoulder a lot of blame for some awful defending in recent times. Where once we had a quite strong central defensive pairing now we don't which is ironic as we have managed have at least one proper full back and some useful wide players while the middle of the team goes to shit.

I do actually fear for Benitez in general but the fact remains he got Liverpool closer to the title than they have gotten in years even while the clubs ownership has been bumbling about.

[ONO]

Selling Alonso and replacing him with an injured Aquilani was madness.

[therockbox]

I'll agree with Stan Collymore who said that Benitez has built a lightweight Liverpool squad with very little depth and no real aura to scare other teams.

You can pretty much guarantee your opinion is wrong when you're agreeing with Stan Collymore. A bigger self-promoting media whore you will not find, he'll say anything to get a bit of publicity.

I also feel vindicated cos I'd mentioned that at the start of the season - every season since Benitez has taken over the squad has gotten worse and worse. Speaking historically only a few of the current squad I would rate as "proper" Liverpool players - Gerrard, Torres, Reina, Carragher from a couple of seasons ago....then, erm, Kuyt and Johnson are alright.

The squad is much better now that it was when he took over. The only first team players from Houllier's last season that were good enough for a team that were expected to challenge for the title were Carragher (who was seen as a fairly average utility player even at that point), Hyypia (who was the wrong side of 30 and would need to be replaced in a few seasons), Hamann (same as Hyypia - good but getting on) and Gerrard (although he's an infinitely better player now than he ever was under Houllier). Players like Finnan, Riise & co. were steady enough for a top 4 team, but it was plainly obvious that they'd need to be replaced when the team moved on. It was a miracle we even got to the Champions League final with that squad, although the fact that it did is now used as a stick to beat Rafa with.

They have the attacking ability to run riot on the "smaller" teams but against the stronger teams they just aren't good enough.

You do realise that this is almost exactly the opposite of what was being said last season, right? We lost the league last year because we couldn't run riot against the smaller teams, but against the bigger teams we were always in control, especially against the top 4. The problem has been that this year a number of players just aren't performing. Gerrard has been poor, I've spoken about him being an 'all or nothing' player on here before and this year it's been pretty much nothing in every game. The problem with Gerrard is that, when he's not playing well, he doesn't even do the simple things, so he gives the ball away in the final third which makes it very difficult to create chances. Torres has also been poor, his goals have covered it but his all round play this year has been shocking. Hull aside, defenders have the measure of him when he gets the ball into feet - he'll turn and run straight at them, he doesn't even look to lay the ball off anymore. He's ignored so many chances to play Lucas/Kuyt/Benayoun in this season it's staggering. Mascherano's head is in Barcelona, he's gone from being a player that could dominate the midfield on his own to a player that puts in some very good tackles but offers nothing else.

Defensively hasn't been much better either. Again, I've spoken about Carragher's decline since Athens on here before, and this season he's not only making mistakes in dangerous areas but he's affecting those around him. His attack on Skrtel in the Spurs game was a sign of things to come, yesterday was his best game of the season and even then it was thoroughly average. The clash of heads with Skrtel had longer lasting affects than the Spurs game as well - Skrtel had been playing with a broken jaw up until a week or so ago, and he's been off colour as well. We're also trying to intergrate two attacking full backs into a system which has previously used 'steady eddies' - Arbeloa, Finnan, Aurelio, Riise - and trying to do so with a midfielder and two central defenders who are out of form.

The top team Liverpool have beaten all season is Stoke.

It hasn't been a great start, but considering we've been missing Aurelio, Aquilani and Agger for most of the season, had a central defender playing with a broken jaw and our two best players hideously out of form, it could have been a lot worse. Plus this happened last season - we were incredibly poor for a spell, everyone brought up almost identical complaints to the ones you have and yet in the last few months we went on an incredible run. We're more than capable of doing that, all it needs is a spark (last year it was the Madrid/United games) - and someone's going to pay for that fucking beach ball.

The General

It seems to me like it's fallout from last season, they started last season claiming that this was the last chance they had at winning the title and by narrowly missing out on it saw their entire motivational push fall flat.

I don't think anyone said it was our last chance to win the title. Best chance in years? Well, yeah, obviously - because it was the best squad we've had since Dalglish.

also dislike Liverpools fear of Evolution. Sure Gerrard and Torres are amazing players on their own, but surely they could be made better if they had better players around them to 'make them do what they do' more efficiently.

I don't think we've got a fear of evolution at all. If that was the case we wouldn't have signed Johnson - a player who completely changes the dynamic of our side simply by being a full back who can run past the halfway and still look completely at ease on the ball. Given their performances over the last two seasons I'd disagree about Gerrard and Torres needing better players around them as well - the problem this season has been that they're the players underperforming, not those around them.

Torres on his own isn't as good as he could be if he had a Carlton Cole style player to tee up shots.

You ever watch him alongside Crouch? Nowhere near as effective. Besides Keane? They just got in each others way. The system with Gerrard playing just off him works because they compliment each other perfectly.

There's only so many times in a season that a striker can get away with a 'mazy run and chip over the GK' without running into a brick wall of a defence (aka, every defence that's team is not in the relegation zone).

Surely this is Torres' doing? I said above about Torres consistently ignoring players around him and instead choosing to turn straight into a group of defenders. He's become incredibly predictable, even though there are options for him. It hasn't been spoken about because he's still scoring, but like I said his all round play has been detrimental to the team.

Gerrard in the other hand needed Alonso at the start of the season,

Why? He's still getting the ball in exactly the same areas as he was last season - I know he's everyone's favourite punchline but Lucas' passing has been consistently good this season, the problem is he gives it to those in front of him and they proceed to do fuck all with it and give it away. You want to know just how bad Gerrard has been this season? We've looked better with Voronin in the hole - because he makes the ball stick, plays the correct passes and gets into the right positions. Gerrard hasn't been doing that, and it isn't because Alonso left.

as Liverpool have been playing with a huge gap in their midfield for the past 2 months it's no wonder that teams with strong midfielders can exploit their weaknesses.

Even if Aquilani was fit we'd still have a gap, basically because Mascherano has been so anonymous. His twenty minutes against Sunderland were as good as he's been all season, I hope it's a turning point but, like I said, I think his head is already in Barcelona.

It would be nice to think that if Liverpool had another player of Gerrard and Torres' quality on the left wing and in central defence that they'd be a much better team than they are today,

Well obviously, but that's like saying if we had Messi, Ronaldo, Xavi and Iniesta we'd be a much better team. It's purely fantasy football, we don't have the money to have world class players in every position, especially with the Americans now completely gutting our transfer budget. We could have sold both Dossena and Voronin in the summer, but we didn't because Rafa didn't think he'd be given the money to go out and sign another player with the funds. Money for Gerrard, Torres and Kuyt's new contracts also came out of the overall transfer fund - that's how much shit we're in.

but through Liverpools policy of one player at a time,

It has to be this way, financially we can't sign great players in numerous positions every summer.

by the time one area is completely covered another gaping hole is discovered (like how they've finally found a great right-back and Carragher has declined in form).

Carra declining in form this much couldn't have been predicted, although when Agger is fully fit I'm hoping we see Agger/Skrtel at the back far more often.

They clearly don't have much money to spend but haven't managed to effectively make use of their youth system and bring through players that are tailor-made to suit their needs,

That's absolutely true, and something that gets completely overlooked when people criticise Rafa's signings. Teams like Arsenal and Man Utd can fill gaps with players from the academy or reserves, but under Houllier it was completely messed up and hasn't produced a player good enough for the first team in years. When Rafa took over I remember we had players like Otsemobor and Welsh in the reserves - and they were considered the standouts! It's only now (and Rafa hadn't had full control of the academy until Parry left - up until then he'd been told to keep his nose out) that we're starting to get some half decent prospects coming through; Pacheco, Nemeth, Steve Irwin, Steve Derby, Buchtmann, Martin Kelly, Adam Pepper - in a couple of seasons hopefully a few of those will make it into the first team squad.

Christ, it's October, and we're only 7 points off the top.

Maybe it's got something to do with Benitez buying about 20 mediocre defenders since managing Liverpool

A load of bollocks - and you were doing so well.

[Crybaby Bunting]

I forgot to stick a on the end of that ¬_¬

[Adam]

For me, Liverpool are already out of the title rac.e The squad is ot strong enough atm, it seems Rafa's reliance in Gerrard, Torres and nobody else is obviously not paying off. I actually think Spurs and Man City have better all-round squads than Liverpool now. When you're missing Gerrard and Mascherano, and that means you have to put Jay Spearing in, that's not good. The strength in depth isn't there when you compare them to Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal, and even Spurs and Man City. I'm honestly starting to lose faith in Benitez as manager now, but the shit with Gillett & Hicks for the last few years hasn't helped at all.

I like Sunderland this year, they've got a good team and could be able to finish top 6. It's looking a lot more interesting and competitive so far this season, and it'd be great if Man Utd could drop a few more points too.

[ONO]

Boo hoo!

[therockbox]

[Crybaby Bunting]

I don't get why John Terry's little bout of aggression is that interesting, I mean he just jumped about in anger after the team conceded an easily preventable goal... is that any worse than booting the ball into the back of the net a few times after a goal has been scored?

Or is the focus that he's meant to be the England captain and should therefore shake the hand of the striker and accept any personal blame for the goal

[ONO]

I don't get why John Terry's little bout of aggression is that interesting, I mean he just jumped about in anger after the team conceded an easily preventable goal... is that any worse than booting the ball into the back of the net a few times after a goal has been scored?

Or is the focus that he's meant to be the England captain and should therefore shake the hand of the striker and accept any personal blame for the goal

A future Alan Hansen right here.

[Crybaby Bunting]

To be fair, my views on football are at times slightly wide of the mark and at other times miss the point completely. I can show irrational hate towards one team but can be convinced that another team is completely innocent for an identical situation, and the odd time that I make a genius statement it is completely overshadowed by the next sentence.

I probably WOULD make a good pundit

[ONO]

Mark Hughes complaining about injury time again.

[ChrisSteeleAteMyHamster]

Good for Wigan, slowing Man City down a little.

[Hobo]

Freak goal was 'wrongly allowed'

A former FA Premier League referee says he is "amazed" Sunderland's winner against Liverpool, which deflected off a beach ball, was allowed to stand.

Jeff Winter told BBC Radio 5 live: "Everyone's going to have a field day but nobody's getting upset about it.

"But the laws of the game clearly state that if there's an outside interference the game has to be stopped.

"The referee (Mike Jones) and his assistant knew something was wrong, and it should have been a dropped ball."

The incident occurred when Darren Bent took a first-time shot from just inside the penalty area in one of Sunderland's first attacks during Saturday's Premier League match at the Stadium of Light.

The ball evaded Glen Johnson's attempted block and, at almost the same time, deflected off a large red beach ball at the edge of the six-yard box.

Liverpool goalkeeper Pepe Reina found his eyes initially drawn to the path of the beach ball and was wrong-footed, in no position to make the save.

Jones did seem to consult the assistant referee but allowed the goal to stand.

Winter said: "Sunderland fans would say it would have probably gone in anyway and that it was a Liverpool fan who threw it [the beach ball] on the pitch.

"But I'm absolutely amazed. It is a basic law in football and the goal should just not have stood.

"I am absolutely amazed that a referee at that level of football, that between him, his assistant and the fourth official they didn't see what had happened and give the correct decision.

"There would have been absolute ructions at the Stadium of Light because the fans wouldn't have understood what had happened but I was watching yesterday afternoon and I was thinking 'hang on this can't be right'.

"I try to defend referees whenever possible but this, in terms of interpreting the laws of the game, is far more serious than when a ball crosses a line and somebody doesn't see it.

Benitez refuses to blame 'bad luck'

"But on this occasion the irony is that everyone is having a laugh and a joke about it."

After the incident, Reina was furious and rushed to remonstrate with a referee's assistant - but the goal stood despite a Fifa law which states: "The referee stops, suspends or terminates the match because of outside interference of any kind."

Rafael Benitez, Liverpool's manager, refused to focus his anger on the fifth-minute incident calling it a "a very technical question".

"It was a special situation but we didn't play well," he said.

"The goal changed the game but we made some mistakes and gave the ball away. When we had our chances, we didn't take them. These things can happen. It's a bad situation for us that the [beach] ball was in the middle and was influential but again I will say we didn't play well - that's the main thing for me."

His counterpart, Steve Bruce, said he initially thought the strike might have taken a deflection off Johnson rather than the beach ball.

Having found out what had actually happened, he said: "If you really know that rule then you are a little bit sad. I didn't know the rule that if a ball hit an object it should be a dropped ball, I always thought it's Sod's Law and you carry on, but there we are.

We've had a bit of luck there way, it's one of those things but it's obviously helped our cause."

Pretty much yes, the game should've been stopped and it is bad officiating that allows the goal to stand. Quite the opposite of the 'the defender or goalkeeper is the one who has to take charge of that' rhetoric that Dean Sturridge was using on the stream I was watching. But then again, who cares what Dean Sturridge thinks

[9 to 5]

RW, ban all those bastards that have been anywhere near negative to the boys in blue and white!

Yes, I have had a few ales and will wake up tommorrow and actutally debate stuff. >_>

[cmb211087]

Fantastic win, 3-1 up in the first half, could have had a few more in the second if we bothered (Nelsen has admitted the second half gameplan was to lower the tempo and counter attack) and the dingles sang for about two minutes out of 90. Great day really