The Scottish Football thread

[Matt]

Apparently all Rangers need to get a SFL place is a simple majority and Dundee have been told they can't vote (might be conflict of interest I guess but surely with Rangers definatly not getting a SPL place next year none exists now? Unless they are counting Dundee as a SPL side now until told otherwise which means Dunfermline will get a vote instead) so 16-14 in favour is what they need. 11 sides have already said they will vote no so could be a very close run thing

You'd imagine the 20 division two and three sides would all want them to start at the bottom anyway so they can get a payday and I'd imagine any division one side aiming for promotion won't be too happy about it.

[Crybaby Bunting]

I don't understand why this new club hasn't been put into Division Three. As we've already discussed with The Football League and the Conference, you can't just start at the top of an existing league system. It beggars belief.

It's bizarre isn't it, basically everyone (including a lot of Rangers fans) want Rangers to start in Division 3 because that's what the rules specify, basically it's only a few Rangers fans, the Kilmarnock chairman and the SPL Chairman who are stamping their feet and saying it's unfair stopping the natural procedures from happening.

Quite sad the Bury idea died, but I still hope we somehow apply for the English leagues in some respect. The Scottish leagues are a barrel of water compared to the ocean that is the English league system. But the FA approving a Rangers-related side into their league system is remote at best.

Funnily enough it might be much easier to create an English Rangers now than ever before, the problem stopping them in the past was knowing that they'd have to start pretty much a few divisions below the Blue Square Divisions and that it'd be financially impossible to keep players on even £500 a week as they climb up all the divisions. With a new name and a brand new team, Rangers could probably find it much easier than the Portsmouth scenario of trying to offload all the players before starting afresh. It'd probably take about 20-30 years or so to be a pretty stable Championship team, and that's under the impression that Rangers fans would continue to be Rangers fans and not just give up on SPL football altogether or start a phoenix club of their own.

Basically it'd be easier to just apply for Division 3 and try and get back to the SPL, considering how long it could take to get English Premier League football. Who knows, there might be a market crash in between now and 30-40 years time and the English Premier League sponsorship rates could turn end to be worthless.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the clubs guilty of this "common practice" getting hammered, like Rangers.

I'm looking forward to every club being treated on an even level too, and know that Hearts kept getting hammered with the threat of sanctions almost every month a while back thanks to wages. Gretna were thrown out the league almost immediately after their season ended and their new club isn't even in Division 3 yet. It's fair to say that if this wasn't Rangers that was being liquidated, there'd be a very different approach regarding re-entry.

Basically, I don't hate Rangers, I just hate everyone at board level and above at Rangers for attempting to orchestrate the biggest scam in British football. They had £130m worth of debts that included everything from unpaid tax to unpaid transfer deals (Jelavic and at least two Scottish clubs) to not paying a shredding company which was probably responsible for 'losing' important documents. They tried to walk away from it and come back as pretty much the same club with the same players in the same league with no debts.

I also hate the blatant double standards that the SPL have shown to Rangers that they certainly wouldn't have shown to any other SPL team (apart from Celtic) and the constant misreporting from the mainstream media. Rangers at this moment in time DOESN'T EXIST! They have been liquidated and the new business hasn't yet created a football club, let alone came up with a name for the football club. The media are trying to dumb it down so it looks like Rangers are being thrown out of the league by the evil nasty SPL despite already giving them a 10 point punishment, when in reality that's just the standard when you liquidate a club.

It's only now that people are starting to wisen up to what's happening, and that might be far too late to punish the real culprits in this mess: Sir David Murray, Charles Green, Craig White etc.

[Adam]

Just on the note of Division 1 clubs voting against Rangers coming in so they have a better shot of promotion - not necessarily, as the proposal to put Rangers Newco in Division 1 includes creating a play-off for a second promotion slot in that division.

[Hobo]

Would the new club suffer any points deduction or anything?

[Noah]

Can someone tell me, if Rangers technically don't exist, why did they get to vote on whether they'd be included in the SPL next season?

I suppose the governing body could have thought it was a moot point, as they'd lose the vote anyway and this way Rangers can't complain about unfairness from high up.

Edit:-Something I just thought of. I heard the vote was 11-1 but I thought I also heard one club abstained? Wouldn't that make it 10-1-1?

[Crybaby Bunting]

Can someone tell me, if Rangers technically don't exist, why did they get to vote on whether they'd be included in the SPL next season?

I suppose the governing body could have thought it was a moot point, as they'd lose the vote anyway and this way Rangers can't complain about unfairness from high up.

Edit:-Something I just thought of. I heard the vote was 11-1 but I thought I also heard one club abstained? Wouldn't that make it 10-1-1?

The 'new' Rangers doesn't exist, the one that was trying to get into the SPL next season.

The old one hasn't yet been fully liquidated yet, so naturally it still had the vote... even though it's voting for a different club's membership altogether.

And yeah, it would be 10-1-1, I heard unanimous and a few reports of 11-1 before hearing that the Kilmarnock chairman abstained.

[Noah]

Ah cheers for that, makes more sense now.

[Crybaby Bunting]

Here's the running total of clubs between Divisions 1-3 who have publicly said what they will be voting for, bearing in mind that Dundee aren't allowed to vote due to potential conflict of interest votes.

Current Total :1 Yes, 13 No, 2 Not Voting, 14 Unknown

First Division: (7 Nos, 2 Unclear, 1 Ineligible)

Second Division: (1 Yes, 1 No, 1 Abstain, 7 Unclear, some consulting fans)

Third Division: (5 No, 5 Unknown)

So it just needs one or two more NO votes (depending on how many more abstains) and Rangers will have to start in Division 3 (if they manage to get a place)

[Lineker]

And that vote is coming up next Friday.

[Lineker]

Manager Ally McCoist has come out heavily in favour of newco Rangers joining the Scottish Third Division.

The Scottish Football League will vote on accepting the newco next week after the Scottish Premier League rejected their application.

McCoist believes he has a better chance of rebuilding a heavily depleted squad from the bottom tier.

And he endorsed the view that for reasons of sporting integrity the club cannot be relaunched in Division One.

The SFL will ballot member clubs on 13 July on whether they should allocate a space to McCoist's team.

There is also a proposal that would see Rangers given entry to Division One in return for TV rights money from the SPL and the introduction of play-offs for promotion to the top flight.

On the SPL's decision, McCoist said: "Like everyone else involved at our club extremely disappointed is putting it mildly.

"We are now in the hands of David Longmuir [sFL chief executive] who is certainly a man that Charles Green [Rangers chief executive] and I trust implicitly.

"He is a good honest man that I firmly believe has the best interests of Scottish football at heart, of that there is no doubt.

"Out of all the characters involved in this situation I think David and his member clubs have been very unfortunate to have been put in a position where they have to make a decision.

"Whatever decision they reach we will accept. Having said that from my meetings with our supporters, and the vast majority of SPL chairmen have been listening to their supporters, which is great, I'm all for it.

"We had a meeting with our supporters last night and the vast majority of them - in the region of 75-80% - have said enough is enough, let's go to SFL3.

"Our good friends at Celtic across the city issued a statement that stated that integrity was of paramount importance to Scottish football and we totally agree with that, and I would imagine the vast majority of all SPL chairmen agree with that statement."

SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster has said that Rangers starting at the bottom is not "a viable option" for Scottish football.

And Scottish Football Association chief executive Stewart Regan warned the game faced a "slow, lingering death" if the Ibrox club had to re-start in Division Three.

On the economic debate McCoist added: "It's the first time I have heard anyone from the SFA speak about the game in a financial sense but then we have the argument that is the financial aspect more important than the massive aspect of integrity and honesty of the Scottish game?

"They might want to put us in SFL1 with more sanctions - I don't know if that is the case.

"We have a transfer embargo hanging over us but how can I operate with a transfer embargo when I only have six players? It's impossible and it's just madness.

"I have in the region of six first team players at pre-season training right now, two of whom were regulars last season in the SPL.

"We need to bring in the region of 10, 12 or even 14 players. I reckon since January we have lost close to 21 players. We have to start rebuilding.

"For the record, in terms of sanctions that have been imposed already, we were deducted 10 points, we had our Champions League place taken away from us, we were fined £160,000, we are out of Europe for another three years and, of course, we are out of the SPL.

"I think that's quite a lot."

McCoist (Y)

[Hobo]

That's probably what should and will happen at the end of this long drawn out saga.

[Adam]

If justice actually prevails here and they start their season against Elgin City or Montrose, then that will be fantastic and my respect for the clubs of the Scottish Football League will rise.

[Kaney]

Paul Gascoigne made himself available for selection by Rangers next season.

He'll show up to training with a six pack of lager and some chicken, no doubt.

[Matt]

Well he probably wakes up in a park on an average Sunday morning anyway, might as well take his boots with him and have a game.

[Colly]

Paul Gascoigne made himself available for selection by Rangers next season.

He'll show up to training with a six pack of lager and some chicken, no doubt.

And a fishing rod. Don't forget the fishing rod.

[METALMAN]

Yeah Rangers had a vote.

By all accounts Kilmarnock abstained from voting, everyone else said no.

Chairman said Kilmarnock fans could vote, they all voted against Rangers but chairman overruled them and abstained. Naturally we are a bit annoyed with him and would like him to resign.

[Lineker]

Proposals from Scottish football's three governing bodies include a new top tier division of 16 teams by 2015.

The top flight would grow from 12 to 14 for 2014-15 and could be extended by a further two clubs a year later.

The only proposed change for the coming season would be the introduction of a promotion/relegation play-off between the top two divisions.

The package of reforms have been revealed two days before a vote on the future of Rangers newco.

On Friday, the 30 Scottish Football League clubs will gather at Hampden to rule on the new company's application, with options to grant entry at Division One or Division Three level.

A joint statement from the Scottish FA, Scottish Premier League and SFL confirmed that an enlarged top tier was on the agenda, along with the introduction of play-offs, streamlining governance and a change in the distribution of monies.

There will be changes to the size of the other leagues, with parachute payments and a pyramid system also suggested.

Many clubs have already indicated their desire to see Rangers start in Division Three.

But, while there is no mention of the Rangers situation in the statement, the authorities may argue that they cannot afford to press ahead with reform if that is the case.

The joint statement continued: "Upon agreement by the respective boards, the proposals will be placed before the SPL and SFL clubs for approval, to be activated immediately and phased in over a two-year period.

"A working party will be formed, including three representatives from both the SPL and SFL, to devise a new structure for the senior professional game in Scotland.

"This group will have an independent chairman appointed by the SFA. They will be tasked with delivering by 30 November, a recommendation for structural change effective 2013/14."

In the event that a final decision is not reached by 30 November, the SFA will move to implement the changes.

"We're getting all of the facts now and we can discuss it further on Friday," said Dunfermline director of football Jim Leishman, who sits on the SFL board.

"The clubs will be able to vote whatever way they like, nobody is holding a gun to their heads."

SFL chief executive David Longmuir described the proposed changes as "something worth going for".

He added: "There are a number of options being looked at which involve the restructuring of the league.

"What we are trying to do here is take Scottish football forward in a way that excites fans and keeps clubs viable."

Meanwhile, BBC Scotland has learned a final decision on which club should replace the old Rangers in the SPL is unlikely to take place before Monday.

Dundee - runners-up in last term's First Division - were previously proposed as the team to take up the vacancy but, Dunfermline, who were relegated from the SPL last season, feel they should be invited back to the top flight.

The issue of where to place Rangers originated when the club could not be saved from liquidation and was relaunched by a new company.

The newco had their application to replace the old Rangers in the SPL rejected and then applied to the SFL, adding they would enter whichever league the organisation deemed fit.

SFA chief executive Stewart Regan fears not putting Rangers into Division One would have a negative financial impact on all clubs.

Last year, SPL clubs considered and eventually rejected plans to reduce the amount of clubs in top league to 10, with chairman Ralph Topping and chief executive Neil Doncaster claiming a 16-team division was not financially viable.

Regan was also an advocate of a 10-team SPL.

[Crybaby Bunting]

Current voting intentions from across Divisions 1-3

First Division: (7 Nos, 1 Yes, 1 Ineligible, 1 Undecided)

Cowdenbeath – No

Dumbarton – Yes

Dundee – Ineligibile to Vote

Dunfermline Athletic – No

Falkirk – No

Greenock Morton – No

Hamilton Academical – Unclear – Chairman has been waffling shite for the past two weeks. Can’t be confident he’ll do the right thing

Livingston – No

Partick Thistle – No

Raith Rovers – No

Second Division: (2 Yes, 3 No, 1 Abstain, 5 Unclear, some consulting fans)

Airdrie United – Abstain

Albion Rovers – Likely Yes

Alloa Athletic – Consulting fans

Arbroath – No –

Ayr United – No –

Brechin City – Discussing at their AGM on 11th

East Fife – No

Forfar Athletic – Unclear

Queen of the South – Unclear

Stenhousemuir – Yes

Third Division: (6 No, 4 Unknown)

Annan Athletic – No

Berwick Rangers – No

Clyde – No

East Stirlingshire – Unknown

Elgin City – Unknown

Montrose – Unknown

Peterhead – No

Queen’s Park – Unknown

Stirling Albion – No

Stranraer – No

Looks like Rangers will end up in the Third Division then ^_^

[Dan]

Apparently Clyde don't want them in the SFL at all.

[Lineker]

That's Stranraer, no?