Official Premier League 2010/11 thread

[Baddar]

That was a cracking goal by Onouha.

C'mon Sunny!

[Timmoru Suzuki]

ASAMOAH GYAN! Hope they can hold on, or it'll ruin MOTD2 for me >_>

[Asuka's Gonna Kill You]

Chelsea have been slaughtered. Mixed emotions really, really happy yet really sad at the same time. On one hand it saves us after the poor result yesterday, yet on the other hand it's yet another oppertunity missed to catch them up. Still, big thank you to Sunderland.

[Blue Rosler]

BRING BACK RAY WILKINS.

[Shelty92]

There's Bruce, Gyan, Bent, Welbeck and now this result - reasons to love Sunderland just keep on piling up.

[Pesci]

But in all honesty, what did you expect from Liverpool this season? It seems to me that Liverpool fans expected a certain level that practically every non-Liverpool fan thought was beyond their reach.

You keep saying this, but nobody's expecting us to challenge for the league or win every game. We expected to do as well as we should - comfortably qualify for Europe and challenge for the Top 4. People seem to be acting like we finished 17th last season. We finished 7th, in the hunt for the Champions League places until the last few games, and the majority of pundits still thought we'd finish 4th as late as March. The results and performances aren't those of a team that finished 7th. Ignore the fact that we're Liverpool and everybody's need to comment on the myth that we all believe we deserve to be winning the league every year, and look at it objectively - Hodgson is doing a bad job. How is finishing 6th and pushing teams like Spurs, who aren't really doing well, beyond our reach? How was the squad Hodgson was given not good enough to achieve that aim when they did it the season before?

[Liam]

I keep saying it because what you and other Liverpool fans seem to expect is far and above what most other fans expected of Liverpool this season.

Naturally, there is a bias to both views, but I think most people expected Liverpool to have a pretty average season. The squad you have is heavily reliant on a few players and you've got players who are out of form and not the players they used to be.

I'm not even arguing for Hodgson, I couldn't care less if the guy was doing a bad job, I just think that Liverpool were going to struggle this season largely irrelevant of who they had at the helm.

[Hobo]

I'd expect more than being in 11th and three points off the relegation zone, from a team composed of players who this time two years ago were top of the table.

[Dan]

Carragher was at his peak, Torres looked like a player who actually wanted to be there and not just putting himself in the shop window against Chelsea (let's face it, that's all he did last week, remind the big boys he can still do it when he can be arsed, he doesn't want to be at Liverpool anymore), Gerrard was firing on all cylinders and they had Xabi Alonso etc.

This Liverpool team is very average, 10th would be an achievement for them.

Imo, they're no better than your Sunderland's, Newcastle's and Villa's.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Version Dan

[Pesci]

It was unlikely that we were ever going to have a fantastic start, but winning 4 out of our 13 games so far isn't just average, I wouldn't even be as kind as to say it's bad - it's shocking. I agree that we were never going to be world beaters, but I don't think Hodgson has any defence for his performance.

EDIT: As for the squad, once again, it's comfortably European qualification quality. Certainly better than Sunderland's and Newcastle's - though Hughton is obviously getting the most out of his players so they're better at the moment, no doubt. On paper it's not even a debate though. And 10th isn't even close to being an achievement for a squad that finished 7th last season.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Pesci

[Dan]

It's average, hence you sitting in 11th, mid-table.

For Liverpool to be 3 points behind a Spurs team which is better in all areas of the pitch is a crime, really.

Name me which players are better than say, Sunderlands line-up? Reina, Torres, Gerrard? Lucas?

Like I said, Torres is great but he doesn't want to be there, it's pretty obvious he's off in the summer, and Reina leaving really wouldn't surprise me.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Version Dan

[Asuka's Gonna Kill You]

Fucking tired of hearing people say stupid shit like 'Torres doesn't want to be there'. How the fuck does anybody other than Torres know if he wants to be there or not? The guy looked bad for a spell because of fitness, lack of confidence and overall the team being in a slump. Confidence is major for somebody like him. He played shit for Spain during a huge spell, does that mean he doesn't want to play for Spain?

Personally expected much more from this Liverpool team. I don't see how anybody can see Hodgson hasn't under performed, because he clearly has. I love the guy and it's not all of his fault, but he's clearly got to step it up more still. This Liverpool team isn't average, it's a very good side that has potential to be much higher up the table. There's no doubt they need to add to their squad and it's huge pressure on Hodgson to make the right additions if of course he's there to do so when the time comes around. Torres, Gerrard and Reina are world class. Cole and Lucas are very good players. Skrtel, Agger, Carragher and Kyriakos are certainly all above good at the back when on form. Johnson went from overrated to majorly underrated now, with people acting like he's shit, when he's clearly not. N'Gog also has potential and has proven his worth. I just don't get the logic in calling this an average side. The potential is there, work needs to be done clearly, but this is a side that should and could be doing better than what some seem to believe.

[Pesci]

Average in terms of performance and above average in terms of quality. What a subpar manager gets out of a team isn't the definition of their quality.

[Pesci]

Admittedly the squad's worse than it was at the start of the season, but that's almost entirely Hodgson's doing so it can't really be used in an argument to defend him. It's pretty pontless listing the players who are better because you obviously don't think they are.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Pesci

[Dan]

I'd willingly place very big money on Torres not being at Liverpool next season, have you watched him this season? He looks like he can't be arsed, it's like someone has given him Berbatov's body language. Gerrard shoots from 30 yards at every opportunity, Reina's made more blunders this season than I've seen him make in all of his time at Liverpool.

Torres played shit at the World Cup, sure, but he actually looked like he was trying, for Liverpool, aside from the Chelsea game, he really hasn't looked like that most of the time.

Cole was a very good player prior to 2007, tell me what he's done since? I really can't remember.

Lucas was a joke among most people until this season, he's doing well this year, I'll give you that.

The 4 defenders you mention are indeed good when on form, but they aren't on form, Carragher will never be the player he used to be, his pace has been gone for a few years now and it's never going to come back.

I can't understand people saying Liverpool should be pushing for 4th, if say Blackburn had this squad, everyone would predict them to finish 8th-11th.

Edit; On the note of say Sunderland or Villa, I'd much rather have an attack of Gyan, Wellbeck & Bent or Young, Agbonlahor and Delfouneso than N'Gog, Torres & Kuyt right now.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Version Dan

[Baddar]

Chelsea have been slaughtered. Mixed emotions really, really happy yet really sad at the same time. On one hand it saves us after the poor result yesterday, yet on the other hand it's yet another oppertunity missed to catch them up. Still, big thank you to Sunderland.

I always use the "if my aunt had bollocks, she'd be my uncle" philosophy. Yes, we dropped points, but there's always going to be what ifs in football. What if Drogba had been ruled offside at OT like he should've been last season? What if Terry had scored the penalty in the CL final - would Grant still be there?

So there's loads of ways of looking at it. Fergie said it right in the pre-match interview with City - we'll gain points in games that we shouldn't have done (referring to the Wolves game) and we'll drop some in others when we should've taken all three (see: Everton & Fulham to name a couple)

The tl;dr of it all is - I'm fucking delighted to only be three behind. Wigan and Blackburn at home next, whereas Chelsea go to both Birmingham and Newcastle. I fancy us to be even closer to them in two weeks time.

[therockbox]

It's average, hence you sitting in 11th, mid-table.

This is silly logic.

The squad underachieved last season, but despite that underachievment we were in the running for a Champions League spot right up until the final few games. This was despite a stupid injury list and owners that were doing their best to sabotage the club at every opportunity. Hodgson now has neither of those excuses, and yet things are now worse than before. Our problem last season was that we were either absolute shit or very good (there were a number of games that could have easily come out of the run in the second half of the 08/09 season), there was no middle ground. We couldn't grind out results against teams outside of the top 7 or 8; we either beat them comfortably or got beat/drew.

This season we've got rid of those good performances, the bad ones have become even worse and that 'average' is about as good as it gets, and that's only happened for about 90 minutes of football this season. This is largely due to Hodgson's system, which, as I said yesterday, highlights the weaknesses of everyone in our squad apart from Kyrgiakos and occasionally Carragher.

I'd willingly place very big money on Torres not being at Liverpool next season, have you watched him this season? He looks like he can't be arsed, it's like someone has given him Berbatov's body language.

And another Skyism becomes truth. Have you watched us at all this season? The issue isn't that he 'can't be bothered' or anything like that, he simply isn't getting any service. He's spending the majority of games chasing down aimless hoofs from Carragher/Kyrgiakos/Konchesky, and essentially being asked to become Bobby Zamora. Again, this is entirely Hodgson's doing. Last season Torres scored 18 goals in 22 Premier League games, and this was also during a season that was supposedly going to be his last at the club.

Reina's made more blunders this season than I've seen him make in all of his time at Liverpool.

Arsenal aside, have you got any examples? Because there aren't many.

Torres played shit at the World Cup, sure, but he actually looked like he was trying, for Liverpool, aside from the Chelsea game, he really hasn't looked like that most of the time.

He was still nursing an injury, and was told he needed a month off to recover from his ankle injury he'd suffered at the end of last season. He didn't get that, he's been trying to get fit since the start of this season.

Lucas was a joke among most people until this season

Only to to the English/people that don't particularly understand football (largely one in the same, admittedly).

I can't understand people saying Liverpool should be pushing for 4th, if say Blackburn had this squad, everyone would predict them to finish 8th-11th.

The squad Roy inherited pushed for fourth last season despite the problems. The changes he made in the summer weakened the squad, but that's still his fault, and it can't be brushed aside.

[stokeriño]

Re: Chelsea

Diabolical is too kind a word.

[Timmoru Suzuki]

I don't entirely but the notion that the weakening of the Liverpool squad in the summer was Hodgson's fault. Benitez was often moaning about the lack of transfer funds, and when Hodgson took over in the summer, the club was still in the clutches of Hicks and Gillet with no cast-iron guarantee's they'd be gone. Money to spend on players was in short supply. My point being, that as far as buying and selling players was concerned, Hodgson had his hands tied a little by the circumstances he was in. Buy as best as you can with the limited funds, sell to make extra funds. Not every team had Manchester City's summer transfer budget, and Hodgson hasn't had chance to use any of NESV's money yet.

Also, the argument that Liverpool should be doing better because it's largely the same squad as two years ago is a little silly too. Two years ago, Carragher, Kuyt and Gerrard were either in the best form of their careers or close to it, and Torres was perorming to a much higher standard.

And, more importantly, two years ago you had Alonso and Mascherano.

Beyond saying that, I've tried to stay out of the Hodgson debates, because I feel both sides are arguing from either extreme; when there's probably a wide open patch of middle ground here.

[therockbox]

I don't entirely but the notion that the weakening of the Liverpool squad in the summer was Hodgson's fault. Benitez was often moaning about the lack of transfer funds, and when Hodgson took over in the summer, the club was still in the clutches of Hicks and Gillet with no cast-iron guarantee's they'd be gone. Money to spend on players was in short supply. My point being, that as far as buying and selling players was concerned, Hodgson had his hands tied a little by the circumstances he was in. Buy as best as you can with the limited funds, sell to make extra funds. Not every team had Manchester City's summer transfer budget, and Hodgson hasn't had chance to use any of NESV's money yet.

This just makes his summer dealings even more irresponsible, though.

We bombed out Insua, who was overexposed last season but wasn't an awful player, for Konchesky, who is (at best) no better than Insua. He is however on higher wages, cost us money (between £3-5m, depending on who you believe) as well as a few youngsters, and will have no sell on value because of his age. Then we re-sign Aurelio, who with the best will in the world can't be relied upon at all. There's a reason why he was only offered a pay-as-you-play extension by Benitez, and there's a reason why he refused it. Once we'd let Insua go (to Galatasaray for free) we were left with no senior left backs so out of desperation we went back to Aurelio, who at that point could name his terms.

Then there was Aquilani, who we'd finally got fully fit only to send him gift wrapped to Juventus - where he's now excelling. Chances are they'll use their right to sign him for £13m in the summer, which is an absolute steal given how he's been playing and how important he's been for them so far this season.

He paid £5m for Christian Poulsen, whose legs went three years ago and looked off the pace in Serie A. Another player with no resale value, on a fairly big contract who we're stuck with until it runs out, because nobody else is going to be stupid enough to sign him.

£2.3m for Brad Jones. I know the common defence for this one is that he counts as homegrown, but that doesn't matter because we don't have the foreign players for that to matter - and if the quota was such a concern that we had to go and sign him, why not keep Insua, who was on a pittance wages wise and counted as homegrown from this season onwards.

Joe Cole. Good player, questionable fitness record, on a £25m contract spread over four years. A criminal decision given out financial situation, and one I can't imagine NESV being too happy with.

He also tried to bomb out Lucas and N'Gog, as well as Dani Pacheco who is one of the highest rated youngsters in the Spanish youth set-up (he has now seemingly been frozen out). He's also alienated Agger, singled out Johnson for special criticism (it's not a coincidence that they're our two best footballing defenders), seperated the squad into 'favourites' and 'out of favour' with his B-team comments, and has been asking Pepe Reina, one of the best keepers in the world, to be more 'English', I can only assume like David James or Robert Green.