(Spoilers) The thread where CALIFORNIA LOOOOVE~!

[SeanDMan]

Hey man, there are lots of games left. anything can happen in the long season...

...though admittedly it only seems as long as it does because i'm a Flyers fan.

[Gabriel]

I'd feel bad for you Sean, but the only thing I have over you right now is that I expected this season to be shitty as a Flames fan.

On paper, the Flyers should be so much better... but that's just how it goes sometimes. I don't like Paul Holmgren as a GM, because I feel like he's constantly painting himself into tight spaces, and then using that as an excuse for sub-par team performance. I think once Hextall takes over, there's going to be a big change from the top down, and the ship will be steady again in Philly.

[Ruki]

SDM is a Flyers fan? I thought he was only into the Canucks.

[Plubby]

I don't like Paul Holmgren as a GM, because I feel like he's constantly painting himself into tight spaces, and then using that as an excuse for sub-par team performance.

Oh my god.

I feel dizzy right now.

[Gabriel]

I don't like Paul Holmgren as a GM, because I feel like he's constantly painting himself into tight spaces, and then using that as an excuse for sub-par team performance.

Oh my god.

I feel dizzy right now.

I know, I know.

The difference is, Flames management hasn't really painted themselves into corners that they can't get out of. Flames management puts themselves in bad, though easily fixable, positions, and in the past, has REFUSED to make changes.

Holmgren gets himself tight to the cap, so much so that he has to manipulate numbers more than any other team in the league, and then makes sweeping changes when the fans and ownership get restless.

I'm not a pot calling a kettle black here. I recognize that the Calgary organization is only in its' first year of actually trying in recent history. Even then, it's arguable that it was only done because there were no more fans willing to sit through the bullshit.

I wasn't comparing Holmgren and the Flyers to my Flames. I was simply commenting on Holmgren as Philadelphia GM. Which has absolutely nothing to do with what teams I choose to be a fan of.

[Plubby]

I'm not saying you can't criticise other teams when one's own is guilty of it too. After all, my organisation employed Greg Sherman (and still does, in name alone). Bu simply because the GMs bone their teams in different ways in no way means that the hypocrisy is not staggering. When Feaster does something boneheaded, you call it a bold move. When Holmgren does, it's painting his team into a corner. Just because you've written the phrase "I'm not a pot calling the kettle black here" does not make it true. You are absolutely a pot calling the kettle black. GM mismanagement has scuttled both teams. Luckily, it's easier to recover from talent mismanagement than cap mismanagement, so the Flames will likely emerge earlier (presuming they start drafting better)

Nobody's slamming Holmgren if Bryz doesn't implode. Yet somehow, that's not "a bold move"? It turned out badly, but I fail to see how that was any worse than the O'Reilly offer sheet (which was lauded as a bold move before the waivers thing came to light)

[Gabriel]

I don't mind the big contracts that Holmgren gives out. I think Bryzgalov was a calculated gamble that failed for a variety of reasons, the biggest of which being that he just wasn't happy.

The only move Holmgren has made that I would call boneheaded was the Pronger contract. That was a bad move all around. Pronger was awesome for the Flyers, but the logistics of the deal are mind boggling to say the least.

The thing I notice about Holmgren, is that he doesn't build. He assembles pieces that are good on their own, but that doesn't make a good team. I'm also not a fan of the buyouts. I know other teams do it, but I don't like when they do it either.

The Flyers are a team made up of fantastic pieces that just haven't gelled together, and you can only blame the pieces themselves for so long before the hammer has to fall on the guy putting them together.

I feel like Holmgren is a gambling man, and on paper, the majority of his moves and signings look good. He just can't seem to make it work, and I don't think that he can. I think he can see the really nice puzzle pieces, but I don't think that he can assemble it.

In regards to Feaster and his moves, the only reason I wasn't on the WTF bandwagon last year is because the best move that anyone could make for Calgary was dumping stagnant veterans. Not just for the team, but also for the players. In that sense, I feel like he did a good job. Kipper's gone, Bouwmeester is doing much better in St. Louis, and the franchise captain Iginla isn't being leaned on anymore. The team is better for it.

The O'Reilly fiasco... my god. On the one hand, it would have been nice to have a center like him, and for a team that won't have cap issues for awhile, I feel like one hail mary contract is a good gamble. Maybe that's why I dislike Holmgren so much, is because of how often he goes to that type of deal to lure stars to Philly. I digress though, no NHL personnel picked up the waiver rule for O'Reilly last year. Nobody. It wasn't until a knowledgeable fan pointed it out that everyone became aware.

I would have liked to have seen some heads roll for that one though. I mean, there has to be a position in the team management that is responsible specifically for knowing these things.

I'm easy on Feaster because as a life-long Flames fan, I would have been happy to walk into this season with a glorified Expansion Team. It got to the point in Calgary where the only way for a GM to really make us angry as fans would be to do nothing, or continue down the road of trying to throw money at veterans to "win now". If Feaster traded away every contract that we had last season, and brought in fresh faces (even unproven ones), it would have been a step forward in my mind.

The real test for Feaster, with me anyways, will be to see if he can continue to make deals that are in the best interests of the team as a whole. Again, I know that he could have gotten more for Iginla and company, but just moving them out was a win for the team. If he starts moving away hard working guys with potential, I will start being very critical of him.

[Plubby]

My biggest problem with Holmgren is that he assembles talent rather than hockey teams, and then hires a coach with the mandate "Make this talent win". One of either the coach or GM (probably the coach) needs to turn talent into a team - and that's something you can't predict with Corsi. For all their partying faults, the Flyers team that went to the cup final exmplifies this - neither Boucher nor Leighton have NHL jobs right now.

Pronger was the best defenseman in the league at the time, and a healthy Pronger is STILL probably in the top 5. What's so boneheaded about his deal in particular?

[Gabriel]

The length of Pronger's deal, with the attempted cap circumvention, was my issue with the deal. Pronger had injury issues, was up there in age, and Holmgren gave him the moon. I just think it was a bad deal, no matter how it's sliced. I think the Luongo deal was a bad deal still. In fact, I think most long term deals are bad ideas, but the market is the way it is.

In theory, Holmgren's job is to assemble the best talent and coaching staff he can... but I think that, the way things are going for the team, you really have to look at the bigger picture. He fired Laviolette. The eyes should be on the GM... and I think they are, and have been for awhile. Philly's been trying to get Hextall back for some time, and now that he's back, and having had his experience under Dean Lombardi, I think it's just a matter of time before they make it official.

[Drock007]

And my Ducks are number 1 in the league

Fun fact last time the Ducks were number 1 team in the NHL after 16 games was 2006/2007.............. the year the Ducks one there first Stanley Cup

[Plubby]

Except most of the rest of the conference hasn't played sixteen games

EDIT: OK, so 2nd and 3rd haven't >_<

[The Sultan of Swank]

In regards to the Flames/Flyers and the argument of it being a longI was reading somewhere about how overwhelmingly at the end of October, the teams in playoff positions are the teams that wind up in the playoffs. Obviously it's not the rule, but it's something....

[Gabriel]

What the fuck, Feaster?

Flames acquire Ladislav Smid from the Oilers for goaltending prospect (who led the Oil Kings to a great season last year) Lauren Brossoit, and Roman "Scorak" Horak.

I don't see any way this is a good deal for the team. I just finished talking about how the success of the team will depend on keeping young guys and moving out pieces that don't have the desire to be there... and they go and pick up Smid, with term left on his deal, and move a top goalie prospect (when we don't even have a set #1) and Horak, who was always one of the hardest workers every game he played.

I just can't see a reason why this was a move that needed to be made in Calgary. The team is supposed to suck right now. Smid is a band-aid that will be soggy by the time that we're supposed to be any good.

This is a boneheaded move.

EDIT: he's 27, with a minus rating this year. 3 years left on his deal at $3.5 million, and I honestly believe he's peaked already.

Fucking hell.

EDIT 2: Oilers prospect Olivier Roy is also a part of the deal. So it officially stands at Smid and Roy to Calgary for Horak and Brossoit.

I know Burke drafted Smid, and we're getting another goalie prospect to replace Brossoit, but I still don't like it. It's a band-aid move to cover a wound that should be getting air anyways.

The only way I see this working out is if there is a defenseman on the way out via trade, but management wanted to make sure there was another experienced NHL body to take his place.

I just don't see Smid making us any significantly better. All I see is one less young d-man getting valuable minutes on a rebuilding team.

[wCwCreator]

Um... the Flames stole Smid from a Rival for Nothing.

Looks like the Oilers are making their last stand. They've signed Brzygalov and have been rumored to have dealt Hemsky to some place unknown?

[Gabriel]

Um... the Flames stole Smid from a Rival for Nothing.

Looks like the Oilers are making their last stand. They've signed Brzygalov and have been rumored to have dealt Hemsky to some place unknown?

You could say that. You could say that they got a roster player from a rival for nothing.

Or, you could look deeper into what the teams are doing. Edmonton clearly won this trade, because they come out with the better goalie, lose a career-minus defenseman and save cap space with which they upgraded in net with Bryzgalov.

Calgary, on the other hand, acquired a career-minus shutdown defenseman, further pushing down younger defensemen on the depth chart during a rebuild, and a lesser goaltending prospect in Roy. For a rebuilding team to make this move is mind boggling, especially given the uncertainty in net (where we downgraded).

[EndOfAnEra]

As an Oilers fan, all I can say is wtf. Bryzgalov is a rumoured 1year deal, Smid was a solid enough D for a team with no D. Maybe something else is in the works? Can we just trade Kevin Lowe already?

[Gabriel]

As an Oilers fan, all I can say is wtf. Bryzgalov is a rumoured 1year deal, Smid was a solid enough D for a team with no D. Maybe something else is in the works? Can we just trade Kevin Lowe already?

Hockeybuzz and every other rumor site out there is reporting that the Oilers and Flyers are in the midst of putting together a massive deal. When they say massive, they mean, earth shattering for the teams, like the Philly/Los Angeles deal from a couple years back that completely changed the foundation of the Flyers.

Eklund is also saying that there is another team involved that might be better than what Edmonton can get from Philly, and that the Oilers are also putting the final touches on another deal with a team in the Metropolitan Division regarding separate pieces.

[EndOfAnEra]

Yeah Sun News is reporting Hemsky's locker is cleared out and he's gone. That's big news for them.

[TGWL]

I also agree that this was an absolute steal for the flames.

[NobBe Nobbs]

Um... the Flames stole Smid from a Rival for Nothing.

Looks like the Oilers are making their last stand. They've signed Brzygalov and have been rumored to have dealt Hemsky to some place unknown?

You could say that. You could say that they got a roster player from a rival for nothing.

Or, you could look deeper into what the teams are doing. Edmonton clearly won this trade, because they come out with the better goalie, lose a career-minus defenseman and save cap space with which they upgraded in net with Bryzgalov.

Calgary, on the other hand, acquired a career-minus shutdown defenseman, further pushing down younger defensemen on the depth chart during a rebuild, and a lesser goaltending prospect in Roy. For a rebuilding team to make this move is mind boggling, especially given the uncertainty in net (where we downgraded).

Gabe, I'm begging you. Before you post anything else about this trade, go to Copper and Blue on SBNation and read what Edmonton fans have to say about it, because your credibility upped and shot itself when you used the words "Edmonton clearly won" and arranged for it's dead deceased corpse to be left in a wheelie-bin for three weeks when you used plus/minus as a stat worth paying attention to. Then you cited Eklund as a source to be listened to, which is so ridiculous not even Tracy Jordan would refer to it.

Let me spell this out: Edmonton traded Ladislav Smid - at worst, a bottom-pair NHL defenseman but an NHL-level defenseman nonetheless - for a crappy forward and an even crappier goaltending prospect. They don't get credit for freeing up the money to sign Ilya Bryzgalov - a reasonable player but one who does not play at the position the Oilers need help - because they could have done that in any number of better ways, such as dumping one of their truly terrible players in the minor leagues and not dealing another body blow to the one area of their team that needs all the help it can get.

Here's another take on it: <a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="http://www.coppernblue.com/2013/11/8/5082806/permanent-revolution-oilers-trade-smid-for-magic-beans.%20As%20a%20connoisseur%20of%20vitriol,%20I" href="http://www.coppernblue.com/2013/11/8/5082806/permanent-revolution-oilers-trade-smid-for-magic-beans.%20As%20a%20connoisseur%20of%20vitriol,%20I" m%20having%20that%20article%20framed%20because%20it's%20a%20lovely%20encapsulation%20of%20impotent,%20frustrated%20rage."="">http://www.coppernblue.com/2013/11/8/5082806/permanent-revolution-oilers-trade-smid-for-magic-beans