EWR 2013 Stats Update: October ***PLEASE USE SPOILER TAGS***

[mkpunk]

What does that have to do with the discussion? The issue isn't whether or not it's possible to dual-sport.

No, it is saying that some football players do amateur wrestling as well. Those are the ones who deserve shooter ticked. Not those like Kofi or something without amateur wrestling experience.

If you give someone the shooting ability because they played American football, you either don't know what shooting means or what American football is.

Would you give an 80 pound punter the shooting trait just because he was on the team? What silly logic.

I played college football, and now I coach football on a competitive level. There is no way, playing football should cause the ticking of shooting ability in game.

In football alone, no. However if it is someone who did amateur football to help with timing and being in a sport to keep in football shape during down season (a reality more so in high school than college) it is different. I think the linemen in NXT (Corbin) was a boxer who former Cardinal coach Ken Wisenhunt (what an idiot) said 'Now, don't go pulling any MMA stuff on me. We're going to put you on the practice squad.' http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/articles/2010/09/07/20100907arizona-cardinals-tom-pestock.html#ixzz2iZ7OUe48

I love the fact that you felt an expert opinion was necessary to disprove this theory.

He is just saying that football alone shouldn't be a factor due to his experience. I agree.

[Colly]

I don't have a clue what's going on here now.

[mkpunk]

I don't have a clue what's going on here now.

Basically someone made a suggestion that some ex-football players should have shooter ticked but there is no link between football and being a shooter alone (unless they are a dual-sport athlete doing football and amateur wrestling.) IMO shoot technique should only go to amateur wrestlers, MMA guys, and martial artists.

[=BK=]

The whole "Duel-sport" thing going on here is dumb. The argument is "Some Football players wrestle too". Ok so stop looking at football entirely and see if someone fucking wrestled. Football doesn't matter so pay no attention to it and don't mention it.

[snakesonaplane]

Agreed, but I also think that the 'amateur wrestling' = 'shooting' in EWR argument needs to be nipped in the bud; I'm suprised it last more than a couple of posts.

In EWR, the 'shoot' box (as was already pointed out on the previous page but ignored for some reason?), only affects the eligibility of a worker to go on tour with Pride FC. If you don't know what Pride FC is/was, it was a MMA organisation based in Japan similar to the UFC.

So it's not really a measure of a persons 'shooting' ability (in a wrestling sense) per se, and certainly shouldn't be treated that way. So for example, if anyone in the WWE besides Brock Lesnar or Alberto del Rio has 'shooting' ticked there's a problem, Brock is a former UFC Champion... when Pride FC existed he could have easily gone on tour there, to be clear it's not because he has an amateur wrestling background. Alberto del Rio has actually competed in Pride FC.

I think the confusion some people seem to be having is that an amateur wrestling background could in theory give someone the ability to 'shoot' on their opponent (with no amateur wrestling skills) in a worked wrestling match, i.e. man-handle them, make them tap; essentially turn the grappling into a 'real' contest to make them look stupid, hurt them etc.

But that is not what the 'shoot' ability is for; it's soley used to determine eligibility for touring with Pride FC. There's really very little subjectivity necessary in that type of determination.

So really if we want to make a decision as to whether someone deserves the 'tick' for shooting we need only ask one question; have they ever had a competitive MMA fight?

If the answer is no, then in 99 per cent of cases the box should not be ticked. The only exceptions I could see to that would be if they had seriously trained in MMA but never had an actual fight for some reason. Or potentially someone like Kurt Angle, with Olympic level amateur wrestling (or Judo) ability, who could with a little training compete in a MMA fight.

Amateur wrestling is not equivalent to an MMA background, and amateur wrestling bouts are not MMA fights. A guy who has an 'amateur wrestling' background who went on tour with Pride FC would likely go home with a concussion. Pride FC would never bring in pro-wrestlers who 'did a bit of amateur wrestling in college/highschool' etc. to compete in a MMA fight. In short, unless someone has trained actually for MMA there is no way they'd be allowed anywhere near Pride.

Edit:

Here's a list of non-Japanese guys who have competed in Pride and wrestling, or wrestling and otherwise have MMA training/fights under their belt:

Ken Shamrock
Josh Barnett (not sure if he is in the database)
Don Frye (not sure if he is in the database)
Brock Lesnar
Batista
Bobby Lashley
Nathan Jones
Giant Silva
Dos Caras Jr./Alberto del Rio
Bob Sapp
Dan Severn
Butterbean (not sure if he is in the database)
Quinton Jackson (not sure if he is in the database)
Tito Ortiz (not sure if he is in the database)
Sean O'Haire
Ron Waterman (not sure if he is in the database)
Tank Abbott (not sure if he is in the database)

There's a much longer list of Japanese guys who would be eligible for Pride that I could post if necessary.

Edited October 24, 2013 by snakesonaplane

[mkpunk]

There's also the former BattleArts who is a more worked version of PRIDE. I am not sure if they require shooting as well. New Japan also did PRIDE/F-1 inspired wrestling too. Whether it was the 2004 stuff with Sapp and Barnett as well as the UWF invasion.

The issue is we have had guys like Daniel Bryan, Davey Richards and Kyle O'Reilly who also have dabbled in MMA inspired training as well who could do MMA but they have not entered into a fight.

[snakesonaplane]

There's also the former BattleArts who is a more worked version of PRIDE. I am not sure if they require shooting as well. New Japan also did PRIDE/F-1 inspired wrestling too. Whether it was the 2004 stuff with Sapp and Barnett as well as the UWF invasion.

The issue is we have had guys like Daniel Bryan, Davey Richards and Kyle O'Reilly who also have dabbled in MMA inspired training as well who could do MMA but they have not entered into a fight.

RE: The Bati Bati style or UWF-style, yes a lot of those guys would definitely have 'shoot' ticked as they have competed in legitimate MMA fights that were not supposed to be worked. The list of Japanese guys who need the tick is much longer for the reasons you stated, and just due to the different culture of puroresu, and its storied relationship with MMA.

Some Japanese wrestlers who have competed in Pride for example:

Alexander Otsuka

Hirotaka Yokoi

Katsushisa Fuji

Kazunari Murakami

Kazushi Sakuraba

Kazuyuki Fujita

Kiyoshi Tamura

Michiyoshi Ohara

Naoki Sano

Naoya Ogawa

Nobuhiko Takada

Tadao Yasuda

Wataru Sakata

Kendo Kashin

Enson Inoue

Yoshiaki Yatsu

Yoshihiro Takayama

Yoji Ano

Takashi Sugiura

------------------------------

None of the american guys you mentioned there should have 'shoot' ticked though.

As I was trying to establish in my previous post (to paraphrase Brock Lesnar) there is a meaningful difference between doing a BJJ class at your local gym (or the Inoki Gym in the case of American Dragon), and training to compete in MMA, or otherwise training at the skill and intensity level required to compete in MMA. The majority of wrestlers in the game world do not meet this criteria, and in general very few non-Japanese workers will.

If it's still not clear enough who qualifies for this 'tick' then consider this question in regards to the worker you have in mind... could you see them competing in the UFC?

If no, they shouldn't get a tick.

Again there are some rare exceptions for guys like Kurt Angle, who are extremely high level practitioners in a related sport; but these people really are rare. To suggest that someone should get the 'shoot' tick because they have done 'MMA inspired' training is like saying anyone who studies Karate, or BJJ in their spare time is likely to get signed to fight for Pride FC... that's not just unrealistic, it's preposterous.

Pride FC was a big big organisation in it's time, equivalent to the UFC, to tour with Pride FC should be an exclusive and rare trait in any worker in the database (as it is in real life). I don't see the point in trying to sneak in as many workers with that trait as possible, it's not a game feature that is designed to be controversial. In the vast majority of cases the 'tick' should be on people who have already competed in MMA (or Pride), the guys with no history of MMA fighting should be a small minority of the cohort with the 'tick'.

Edited October 24, 2013 by snakesonaplane

[ModestATT]

After what I just witnessed on Raw, lower Randy Orton's Charisma to 9

[mkpunk]

There's also the former BattleArts who is a more worked version of PRIDE. I am not sure if they require shooting as well. New Japan also did PRIDE/F-1 inspired wrestling too. Whether it was the 2004 stuff with Sapp and Barnett as well as the UWF invasion.

The issue is we have had guys like Daniel Bryan, Davey Richards and Kyle O'Reilly who also have dabbled in MMA inspired training as well who could do MMA but they have not entered into a fight.

RE: The Bati Bati style or UWF-style, yes a lot of those guys would definitely have 'shoot' ticked as they have competed in legitimate MMA fights that were not supposed to be worked. The list of Japanese guys who need the tick is much longer for the reasons you stated, and just due to the different culture of puroresu, and its storied relationship with MMA.

Some Japanese wrestlers who have competed in Pride for example:

Alexander Otsuka

Hirotaka Yokoi

Katsushisa Fuji

Kazunari Murakami

Kazushi Sakuraba

Kazuyuki Fujita

Kiyoshi Tamura

Michiyoshi Ohara

Naoki Sano

Naoya Ogawa

Nobuhiko Takada

Tadao Yasuda

Wataru Sakata

Kendo Kashin

Enson Inoue

Yoshiaki Yatsu

Yoshihiro Takayama

Yoji Ano

Takashi Sugiura

------------------------------

None of the american guys you mentioned there should have 'shoot' ticked though.

As I was trying to establish in my previous post (to paraphrase Brock Lesnar) there is a meaningful difference between doing a BJJ class at your local gym (or the Inoki Gym in the case of American Dragon), and training to compete in MMA, or otherwise training at the skill and intensity level required to compete in MMA. The majority of wrestlers in the game world do not meet this criteria, and in general very few non-Japanese workers will.

If it's still not clear enough who qualifies for this 'tick' then consider this question in regards to the worker you have in mind... could you see them competing in the UFC?

If no, they shouldn't get a tick.

Again there are some rare exceptions for guys like Kurt Angle, who are extremely high level practitioners in a related sport; but these people really are rare. To suggest that someone should get the 'shoot' tick because they have done 'MMA inspired' training is like saying anyone who studies Karate, or BJJ in their spare time is likely to get signed to fight for Pride FC... that's not just unrealistic, it's preposterous.

Pride FC was a big big organisation in it's time, equivalent to the UFC, to tour with Pride FC should be an exclusive and rare trait in any worker in the database (as it is in real life). I don't see the point in trying to sneak in as many workers with that trait as possible, it's not a game feature that is designed to be controversial. In the vast majority of cases the 'tick' should be on people who have already competed in MMA (or Pride), the guys with no history of MMA fighting should be a small minority of the cohort with the 'tick'.

Guys like Punk, Bryan and Richards though trained in grappling though. Punk trained with Rener Gracie (which is the sweatshirt he wears to the ring.) Bryan trained with Xtreme Couture before signing his WWE deal in 2009. Richards is trained in Ju-Jitsu. All three COULD do a form of MMA. Have they liked the men you mentioned, no.

The full list of shooters in the game (I crossed out those in PRIDE/F1 and those with known shoot experience through training):

2 Cold Scorpio

Aaron Aguilera

Adam Brown

Adam Watt

Adrian Serrano

Adrianna

AJ Styles

Akebono (sumo)

Akiiko Ito

Akira Maeda

Al Snow

Alberto Del Rio

Alex Pain

Alexander Kozlov (Sambo)

Alexander Otsuka

Alexis Bliss

Amara Suloev

American Kickboxer II

Amy Dumas (Ju-Jitsu)

Amy Lee

Andy Leavine

Andy Sumner (Sambo)

Angel Orsini

Angela Fong

Annie Social

Anthony Henry

April Davids

Arashi

Atsushi Aoki

Atsushi Sawada

Ayako Sato

Akyut

Bas Rutten (I know he has shot somewhere)

Bas Van Kunder

Batista

Bete Noire

Beth Phoenix (amateur)

Big Vito

Bill Goldberg

Bitsadze Tariel

Blade Mathews

Blue Wolf (was in NJPW during the F1inspired era)

Bob Backlund (amaetur shooter)

Bob Sapp

Bobby Fish (amaetur MMA fighter)

Bobby Lashley

Booker T

Brandon Gatson

Brandon Groom

Brandon Hill

Brandon Parker

Bravehart

Bray Wyatt

Brent Albright

Brian Black

Brian Gamble (kickboxer)

Brian Johnston

Brock Lesnar

Brock Singleton

Brute Issei

Bryan Alvarez

Buff Bagwell

BUSHI

Butterbean

Cal Bishop (amateur)

Caprice Coleman

Captain New Japan

Carl Contini

Cat Power

Chad Baxter

Charlie Haas (amateur)

Chasyn Rance

Checkmate

Chilly Willy

Chris Colen

Chris Dickinson

Chris Ewing

CM Punk

Cody Rhodes (amateur)

Crossbones

Curt Daniels

Daichi Hashimoto

Daisuke Ikeda

Dalis La Caribena (kickboxer)

Dan Bobish

Dan Severn

Dana Lee

D'Angelo Dinero (boxer)

Danger

Daniel Bryan

Daniel Puder

Dann Bondauce (boxer)

Danny Inferno

Danshoku Dino

Davey Richards (Ju-Jitso)

David Starr

Deano

Denton Blackwell (amateur)

Destroyer

Dino Carter

Disco Fury

Dolph Ziggler (amateur)

Don Frye

Doovan Ruddick

Douglas Willaims

Drew Haskins

Drew Johnson

Dustin Corino

Earl Huff

Egan Inoue

Elix Skipper

Enson Inoue

Eric Bischoff (karate)

Eric Mastrocola

Erik Hammer

Erin Bray

Ernest Miller (karate)

Ethan Page

Evan Bourne (amateur)

Evan Gelistico

Evan Karagias

Eve Torres (teaches Gracie Ju-Jitso)

Fady Madani

Famous B

Fang Suzuki

Finlay

Flex Freeman (amateur)

Frank Trigg

Fuego (I would remove this)

Fuuka

Gary Goodridge

Gary Jay

Genba Hirayanagi

Genichiro Tenryu

Geza Kalman Jr.

Gigante Silva

Glacier

GOKU-DO (Pat Tanaka)

Great Sasuke

Guivi Sissaouri

Hade Vansen

Hailey Hatred

Haku

Hannibal (amateur)

Hardcore Holly

Harry Smith (trained in MMA)

Hawaiian Lion

Hawk Younkins

Heath Slater

Heddi Karaoui (kickboxer)

Heidenreich

Henry Godwinn

Hikaru

Hirooki Goto

Hiroshi Hase

Hiroshi Tanahasi

Hiroshi Yamato

Hirotaka Yokoi

Histeria III (MMA guy)

Ian Decay

Ice Man

Imani Lee

Ivanna B. Eighten

Ivelisse Velez (kickboxer?)

J Bronson (boxer/amateur?)

Jack Bull

Jaden

Jaka

Jake O'Reilly

James Ewing

James Maritato (UWF-I)

James Storm

James Wallace

Jane Blond

Jason Jordan (amateur)

J-Biggs

Jaqueline Moore (kickboxer)

JD Maverick

Jeff Lewis Neal

Jemma Palmer

Jenny jodin

Jeremiah Riggs (part of one of the Ultimate Fighter seasons and fought with Bellator)

Jeremy Young

Jerry Flynn (kickboxer)

Jesse Neal

Jessica Hatch

Jewells Malone

Jinsei Shinzaki

Jody Fleisch

John Alessio

John Balsamo

John Bradshaw Layfield

John Dixson

Johnny Phere

Joker

Jon Rekon

Jon Ryan

Jonathan Coachman

Josh Barnett

josianne The Pussycat

Joy Giovanni

Juice Jennings

Jun Akiyama

Jushin Liger

Justice Smith

Justin Sane

Jutaro Nakao

Kafu

KAI

Kane

Karsten Kretschmer

Kassius Ono

Katey Harvey

Katsuhiko Nagata

Katsuhiko Nakamjima (some form of martial arts)

Katusuyori Shibata

Kazunari Murakami

Kazuhi Sakuraba

KazuyukiFujita

KC Spinelli

Kiichi Oba

Keiji Mutoh

Ken Shamrock

Kendall Skye

Kendo Kashin

Kenn Doane

Kenneth Cameron

Kenou (kickboxer)

Kenshin Chikano (kickboxer)

Kensuke Sasaki

Kevin Northcutt

Kevin Sullivan

Kid Kash (MmA)

Kiyoshi tamura

Kohei Sato

Koji Kanemoto

Koji Kitao (sumo)

Konnan (boxer)

Kurt Angle (amateur)

KUSHIDA

Kyle Maverick

Kyle O'Reilly

Kyle Semenoff

Kyoko Inoue

Kyoko Kimura

Lady Diamond Dee

Lamar Braxton Porter

Larry Zbyszko

Lash LeRoux

Latash Marzolla

LeilaniKai

Lince Dorado

Lionheart BCW

Lisa Fury

Low Ki (worked a very strike heavy offense)

Lucky tHURTeen

Lucy Clayden

Lyguila

Madison Eagles

Madusa (kickboxer)

Magnificent Mimi

Manabu Hara

Manabu Nakanishi

Marc Mero (boxer)

Mark Coleman

Marshall Von Erich

Marty Jannetty

Maryse Ouellet

Masa Takanashi

Masaaki Mochizuki (strike heavy offense)

Masaktsu Funaki

Masamitsu Kochi

Masanobu Fuchi

Masahi Aoyagi (UWF-I)

Masato (who?)

Masayuki Kono

Masayuki Naruse

Mason Ryan

Matt Barela

Matt haffari

Maven Bentley

Maxx Payne

Maybach Taniguchi

Megumi Yabushita

Meiko Satomura

Metal Master (shoot wrestler Chad Collyer)

MiaYim

Michiko Omukai

Michiyoshi Ohara

Mick Foley (amateur)

Mickael Zaki

Mike Barton (boxer)

Mike Kehner

Mike Quackenbush

Mike Sharona

Mike Tolar

Mileena D-Bomb

Minoru Suzuki

Minoru Tanaka

Minowaman

Mirko Filipovic

Misterioso

Mitsuhiro Matsunaga

Mitsuya Nagai

Mizuki Endo

Mo Sexton

Mojo Rawley

Mortimer Plumtree

Mr. Anderson

Mr. Strongko

MTX

Muhammed Lawal

Munenori Sawa

Murat Bosporus

Murilo Bustamante

Namajague

Naomici Marufuji

Naoya Ogawa

Natalya Neidhart

Nathan Jones

Neil Faith

New Jack

New York Knockout Nikki

Nick Logan

Nick Mitchell

Nick Nelson

Nikita Fink

Nobujko Takada

Nobutaka Araya

Nosferatu

Nyla Rose

ODB

Oliver Grey

Oliver John

Oman Tortuga

Omar Akbar

One Man Gang

Orlando Jordan

Pat Buck

Patrick G.E.I.L. Schulz

Paul Lombardi

Paul London (amateur)

Paul Roma

Perry Saturn

Pete Kaasnova

Pierre Carl Ouelette

Pimp Fatha (boxer/kickboxer)

Pippa L'Vinn

Poison Appollo

Prince Devitt

Princess Of Power

Quinson Valentino

Quintin "Rampage" Jackson

Race Steele

Rachel Summerlyn

Randy OrtonRaze

Reno

Reuben De Jong

Rhys Youngblood

Rich Ortiz

Richie Steamboat (amateur wrestler)

Rick Mathis

Rick Steiner (amateur)

Rick Vain

Rico Bushido

Riki Choshu

Rob Van Dam

Roddy Piper (boxer)

Rodney Mack

Ron Harris

Ron Mathis

Ron Waterman

Rosa Mendes

Ross Von Erich

Rowdy Red

Rush Margera

Russian Bruiser Anya (MMA)

Ryan Genesis

Ryoji Sai

Ryuji Goto

Ryuji Hijikata

RyushiYanagisawa

Ryusuke Taguchi

Saar Bokstein

Sadyst

Sam Greco

Sam Shields

Sami Callihan

Samoa Joe (should be)

Santino Marella (martial arts gym)

Sara Del Rey

Sara Jay

Sarah Stock

Sasha Banks

Sasori

Satoru Sayama

Satoshi Kajiwara

Savanah Riley

Savio Vega

Sawyer Fulton

Scott Steiner (amateur)

Sean McCully

Sean O'Haire

SeiyaSnada

Sensei

Seth Shai

Sexxxy Eddy

Shad Gaspard (boxer)

Shane Helms

Shane Strickland

Shaun Tempers

Shawn Riddik

Shawn Stasiak

Shelton Benjamin (amateur)

Shin Ku

Shinobu Kanadori

Shinsuke Nakamura

Sid abulous

Silvie Silver

Simply Luscious

Sinn Bodhi

Siren Monroe

Skandalo

Snake Brody

Solo

Sonny Onno (kickboxer)

Sonoko Kato

Spence Slater

Spencer Khrone

Steve Blackman

Steve Lewington

Sumie Sakai

Super Boy

Super Strong Machine

Super Tiger II

Supreme Lee Great

Susan Mortan

SUSHI

Suwama

Sybil Starr

Sylvester leFort

Sylvester Terkay

Syuri (kickboxer)

TAC

Tado Yasuda

TaDarius Thomas (capoeria)

Taichi Ishikari

Taiyo Kea

Tajiri (marital arts)

TAKA Michinoku

Takkao Inoue

Takashi Echigo

Takashi Iizuka

Takashi Sugiura

Takehiro Murahama

Takeshi Rikio

Taku Anzawa

Takuma Sano (Naoki Sano)

Tama Tonga

Tamon Honda (amateur)

Tank

Tank Abbott

Tanny Mouse

Tanomusaku Toba

Tara

TARU

Tarn Terrell

Tatushito Takaiwa

Tatsuo Nakano

Tatsuhi Yamaguchi

Tatsutoshi Goto

Taz (should be)

The Amazing Darkstone

The Barbarian

The Great Khali

The Great Tetsujin

The iron Shiek

The Nighthawk

The Stro

The Zebra Kid

Tiana Ringer

Tiger Ali Singh

Tiger Mask IV

Tim Donst

Tito Ortiz

TOA

Togi Makabe

Tom Howard

Tommy Cobat

Tommy End

Tommy Force

Tommy Tayloy

Tomohiko Hashimoto

Tony Atlas

Tony Jones

Tony Kozina

Toru Yano

Toshiaki Kawada

Tracy Smothers

Travis Tyler (amateur)

Tristin Hayze

Troy Bond

Truitt Fields

Tsubasa Kuragaki

Tsuyoshi Kikuchi

Tyrone Evans (boxer)

Ulf Herman

Ultimate Fighter Caruso

Undertaker (MMA enthusiast)

Villano III

Virgil (boxer)

Volk Han

Vordell Walker

Wade Barrett (boxer)

Warpath

Wataru Sakata

Wes Brisco (amateur)

Wesna Busic

William Regal

Xavier

Xavier Woods

X-Cal

Yoji Anjoh

Yoshi Tatsu

Yoshiaki Yago

Yoshiaki Yatsu

YOSHI-HASHI

Yoshihiro Takayama

Yuji Hino

Yuji Nagata (shoot fought in New Japan)

Yujiro Takahashi (amateur)

Yumiko Hotta

Yutaka Yoshi

Zumbi

Only a small fraction of people were in UWF, UWF-I, BattleArts, PRIDE, F-1 or trained in MMA.

[snakesonaplane]

Guys like Punk, Bryan and Richards though trained in grappling though. Punk trained with Rener Gracie (which is the sweatshirt he wears to the ring.) Bryan trained with Xtreme Couture before signing his WWE deal in 2009. Richards is trained in Ju-Jitsu. All three COULD do a form of MMA. Have they liked the men you mentioned, no.

The full list of shooters in the game (I crossed out those in PRIDE/F1 and those with known shoot experience through training):

Only a small fraction of people were in UWF, UWF-I, BattleArts, PRIDE, F-1 or trained in MMA.

I think the situation is pretty clear - ultimately this is not about peoples level or type of training - it's about whether or not they would be likely to turn up in Pride FC (if the company was still around), so lets say the UFC, as a substitute.

That's it, I think it just confuses the matter to bring up other things like so-and-so did this Gracie workshop, knowing MMA techniques is very different to being at the level required to be signed by Pride [the 'shoot' stat in a nut-shell]... and being signed by Pride (UFC?) is the only thing we need to care about when making this determination. That is literally the only relevant criteria for this stat.

Can I see any of those guys competing in the Pride (or UFC) in future? No.

Do I think even if given that it's unlikely, that they would 'qualify' to compete in the UFC in some hypothetical universe? No. Knowing MMA techniques is a different universe to being signed by Pride FC to compete in a real fight. These people dedicated years to training not a few hours, or as a hobby.

As I stated in my last post, 'MMA inspired' training isn't sufficient - otherwise virtually anyone could have 'shoot' ticked, it's not about how many BJJ workshops you attended under a Gracie, have you competed in Pride? Would Pride sign you in future? No? No tick.

You have the wrong idea if you think it's about level of training, shooting ability etc.

'Shoot' = Would Pride FC sign them to fight?

'Shoot' /=/ Can this person 'shoot'?

I understand that there a hundreds of guys with the box ticked already, and looking at this list only quickly you can see that people in the past have applied the second definition, and not the first (thinking it was a measure of MMA knowledge rather than understanding its purpose in game). There are too many people on that list to mention here that obviously would never work for Pride or be offered a contract to fight there, these people should be obvious. Basically the way the stat has been used in the past runs against its intention in the game, it came to be used in a certain way, but that doesn't mean we should keep using it incorrectly.

I mean, Pride FC doesn't even sign female fighters, and there are dozens of women on that list - it's pretty clear the stat has been used wrong and people don't understand its purpose or what should qualify someone to have it. Just because a lot of people have it that shouldn't, doesn't mean we should continue to hand it out on false grounds.

Edited October 24, 2013 by snakesonaplane

[Rich]

The full list of shooters in the game (I crossed out those in PRIDE/F1 and those with known shoot experience through training):

2 Cold Scorpio

Aaron Aguilera

Adam Brown

Adam Watt

Adrian Serrano

Adrianna

AJ Styles

Akebono (sumo)

Akiiko Ito

Akira Maeda

Al Snow

Alberto Del Rio

Alex Pain

Alexander Kozlov (Sambo)

Alexander Otsuka

Alexis Bliss

Amara Suloev

American Kickboxer II

Amy Dumas (Ju-Jitsu)

Amy Lee

Andy Leavine

Andy Sumner (Sambo)

Angel Orsini

Angela Fong

Annie Social

Anthony Henry

April Davids

Arashi

Atsushi Aoki

Atsushi Sawada

Ayako Sato

Akyut

Bas Rutten (I know he has shot somewhere)

Bas Van Kunder

Batista

Bete Noire

Beth Phoenix (amateur)

Big Vito

Bill Goldberg

Bitsadze Tariel

Blade Mathews

Blue Wolf (was in NJPW during the F1inspired era)

Bob Backlund (amaetur shooter)

Bob Sapp

Bobby Fish (amaetur MMA fighter)

Bobby Lashley

Booker T

Brandon Gatson

Brandon Groom

Brandon Hill

Brandon Parker

Bravehart

Bray Wyatt

Brent Albright

Brian Black

Brian Gamble (kickboxer)

Brian Johnston

Brock Lesnar

Brock Singleton

Brute Issei

Bryan Alvarez

Buff Bagwell

BUSHI

Butterbean

Cal Bishop (amateur)

Caprice Coleman

Captain New Japan

Carl Contini

Cat Power

Chad Baxter

Charlie Haas (amateur)

Chasyn Rance

Checkmate

Chilly Willy

Chris Colen

Chris Dickinson

Chris Ewing

CM Punk

Cody Rhodes (amateur)

Crossbones

Curt Daniels

Daichi Hashimoto

Daisuke Ikeda

Dalis La Caribena (kickboxer)

Dan Bobish

Dan Severn

Dana Lee

D'Angelo Dinero (boxer)

Danger

Daniel Bryan

Daniel Puder

Dann Bondauce (boxer)

Danny Inferno

Danshoku Dino

Davey Richards (Ju-Jitso)

David Starr

Deano

Denton Blackwell (amateur)

Destroyer

Dino Carter

Disco Fury

Dolph Ziggler (amateur)

Don Frye

Doovan Ruddick

Douglas Willaims

Drew Haskins

Drew Johnson

Dustin Corino

Earl Huff

Egan Inoue

Elix Skipper

Enson Inoue

Eric Bischoff (karate)

Eric Mastrocola

Erik Hammer

Erin Bray

Ernest Miller (karate)

Ethan Page

Evan Bourne (amateur)

Evan Gelistico

Evan Karagias

Eve Torres (teaches Gracie Ju-Jitso)

Fady Madani

Famous B

Fang Suzuki

Finlay

Flex Freeman (amateur)

Frank Trigg

Fuego (I would remove this)

Fuuka

Gary Goodridge

Gary Jay

Genba Hirayanagi

Genichiro Tenryu

Geza Kalman Jr.

Gigante Silva

Glacier

GOKU-DO (Pat Tanaka)

Great Sasuke

Guivi Sissaouri

Hade Vansen

Hailey Hatred

Haku

Hannibal (amateur)

Hardcore Holly

Harry Smith (trained in MMA)

Hawaiian Lion

Hawk Younkins

Heath Slater

Heddi Karaoui (kickboxer)

Heidenreich

Henry Godwinn

Hikaru

Hirooki Goto

Hiroshi Hase

Hiroshi Tanahasi

Hiroshi Yamato

Hirotaka Yokoi

Histeria III (MMA guy)

Ian Decay

Ice Man

Imani Lee

Ivanna B. Eighten

Ivelisse Velez (kickboxer?)

J Bronson (boxer/amateur?)

Jack Bull

Jaden

Jaka

Jake O'Reilly

James Ewing

James Maritato (UWF-I)

James Storm

James Wallace

Jane Blond

Jason Jordan (amateur)

J-Biggs

Jaqueline Moore (kickboxer)

JD Maverick

Jeff Lewis Neal

Jemma Palmer

Jenny jodin

Jeremiah Riggs (part of one of the Ultimate Fighter seasons and fought with Bellator)

Jeremy Young

Jerry Flynn (kickboxer)

Jesse Neal

Jessica Hatch

Jewells Malone

Jinsei Shinzaki

Jody Fleisch

John Alessio

John Balsamo

John Bradshaw Layfield

John Dixson

Johnny Phere

Joker

Jon Rekon

Jon Ryan

Jonathan Coachman

Josh Barnett

josianne The Pussycat

Joy Giovanni

Juice Jennings

Jun Akiyama

Jushin Liger

Justice Smith

Justin Sane

Jutaro Nakao

Kafu

KAI

Kane

Karsten Kretschmer

Kassius Ono

Katey Harvey

Katsuhiko Nagata

Katsuhiko Nakamjima (some form of martial arts)

Katusuyori Shibata

Kazunari Murakami

Kazuhi Sakuraba

KazuyukiFujita

KC Spinelli

Kiichi Oba

Keiji Mutoh

Ken Shamrock

Kendall Skye

Kendo Kashin

Kenn Doane

Kenneth Cameron

Kenou (kickboxer)

Kenshin Chikano (kickboxer)

Kensuke Sasaki

Kevin Northcutt

Kevin Sullivan

Kid Kash (MmA)

Kiyoshi tamura

Kohei Sato

Koji Kanemoto

Koji Kitao (sumo)

Konnan (boxer)

Kurt Angle (amateur)

KUSHIDA

Kyle Maverick

Kyle O'Reilly

Kyle Semenoff

Kyoko Inoue

Kyoko Kimura

Lady Diamond Dee

Lamar Braxton Porter

Larry Zbyszko

Lash LeRoux

Latash Marzolla

LeilaniKai

Lince Dorado

Lionheart BCW

Lisa Fury

Low Ki (worked a very strike heavy offense)

Lucky tHURTeen

Lucy Clayden

Lyguila

Madison Eagles

Madusa (kickboxer)

Magnificent Mimi

Manabu Hara

Manabu Nakanishi

Marc Mero (boxer)

Mark Coleman

Marshall Von Erich

Marty Jannetty

Maryse Ouellet

Masa Takanashi

Masaaki Mochizuki (strike heavy offense)

Masaktsu Funaki

Masamitsu Kochi

Masanobu Fuchi

Masahi Aoyagi (UWF-I)

Masato (who?)

Masayuki Kono

Masayuki Naruse

Mason Ryan

Matt Barela

Matt haffari

Maven Bentley

Maxx Payne

Maybach Taniguchi

Megumi Yabushita

Meiko Satomura

Metal Master (shoot wrestler Chad Collyer)

MiaYim

Michiko Omukai

Michiyoshi Ohara

Mick Foley (amateur)

Mickael Zaki

Mike Barton (boxer)

Mike Kehner

Mike Quackenbush

Mike Sharona

Mike Tolar

Mileena D-Bomb

Minoru Suzuki

Minoru Tanaka

Minowaman

Mirko Filipovic

Misterioso

Mitsuhiro Matsunaga

Mitsuya Nagai

Mizuki Endo

Mo Sexton

Mojo Rawley

Mortimer Plumtree

Mr. Anderson

Mr. Strongko

MTX

Muhammed Lawal

Munenori Sawa

Murat Bosporus

Murilo Bustamante

Namajague

Naomici Marufuji

Naoya Ogawa

Natalya Neidhart

Nathan Jones

Neil Faith

New Jack

New York Knockout Nikki

Nick Logan

Nick Mitchell

Nick Nelson

Nikita Fink

Nobujko Takada

Nobutaka Araya

Nosferatu

Nyla Rose

ODB

Oliver Grey

Oliver John

Oman Tortuga

Omar Akbar

One Man Gang

Orlando Jordan

Pat Buck

Patrick G.E.I.L. Schulz

Paul Lombardi

Paul London (amateur)

Paul Roma

Perry Saturn

Pete Kaasnova

Pierre Carl Ouelette

Pimp Fatha (boxer/kickboxer)

Pippa L'Vinn

Poison Appollo

Prince Devitt

Princess Of Power

Quinson Valentino

Quintin "Rampage" Jackson

Race Steele

Rachel Summerlyn

Randy OrtonRaze

Reno

Reuben De Jong

Rhys Youngblood

Rich Ortiz

Richie Steamboat (amateur wrestler)

Rick Mathis

Rick Steiner (amateur)

Rick Vain

Rico Bushido

Riki Choshu

Rob Van Dam

Roddy Piper (boxer)

Rodney Mack

Ron Harris

Ron Mathis

Ron Waterman

Rosa Mendes

Ross Von Erich

Rowdy Red

Rush Margera

Russian Bruiser Anya (MMA)

Ryan Genesis

Ryoji Sai

Ryuji Goto

Ryuji Hijikata

RyushiYanagisawa

Ryusuke Taguchi

Saar Bokstein

Sadyst

Sam Greco

Sam Shields

Sami Callihan

Samoa Joe (should be)

Santino Marella (martial arts gym)

Sara Del Rey

Sara Jay

Sarah Stock

Sasha Banks

Sasori

Satoru Sayama

Satoshi Kajiwara

Savanah Riley

Savio Vega

Sawyer Fulton

Scott Steiner (amateur)

Sean McCully

Sean O'Haire

SeiyaSnada

Sensei

Seth Shai

Sexxxy Eddy

Shad Gaspard (boxer)

Shane Helms

Shane Strickland

Shaun Tempers

Shawn Riddik

Shawn Stasiak

Shelton Benjamin (amateur)

Shin Ku

Shinobu Kanadori

Shinsuke Nakamura

Sid abulous

Silvie Silver

Simply Luscious

Sinn Bodhi

Siren Monroe

Skandalo

Snake Brody

Solo

Sonny Onno (kickboxer)

Sonoko Kato

Spence Slater

Spencer Khrone

Steve Blackman

Steve Lewington

Sumie Sakai

Super Boy

Super Strong Machine

Super Tiger II

Supreme Lee Great

Susan Mortan

SUSHI

Suwama

Sybil Starr

Sylvester leFort

Sylvester Terkay

Syuri (kickboxer)

TAC

Tado Yasuda

TaDarius Thomas (capoeria)

Taichi Ishikari

Taiyo Kea

Tajiri (marital arts)

TAKA Michinoku

Takkao Inoue

Takashi Echigo

Takashi Iizuka

Takashi Sugiura

Takehiro Murahama

Takeshi Rikio

Taku Anzawa

Takuma Sano (Naoki Sano)

Tama Tonga

Tamon Honda (amateur)

Tank

Tank Abbott

Tanny Mouse

Tanomusaku Toba

Tara

TARU

Tarn Terrell

Tatushito Takaiwa

Tatsuo Nakano

Tatsuhi Yamaguchi

Tatsutoshi Goto

Taz (should be)

The Amazing Darkstone

The Barbarian

The Great Khali

The Great Tetsujin

The iron Shiek

The Nighthawk

The Stro

The Zebra Kid

Tiana Ringer

Tiger Ali Singh

Tiger Mask IV

Tim Donst

Tito Ortiz

TOA

Togi Makabe

Tom Howard

Tommy Cobat

Tommy End

Tommy Force

Tommy Tayloy

Tomohiko Hashimoto

Tony Atlas

Tony Jones

Tony Kozina

Toru Yano

Toshiaki Kawada

Tracy Smothers

Travis Tyler (amateur)

Tristin Hayze

Troy Bond

Truitt Fields

Tsubasa Kuragaki

Tsuyoshi Kikuchi

Tyrone Evans (boxer)

Ulf Herman

Ultimate Fighter Caruso

Undertaker (MMA enthusiast)

Villano III

Virgil (boxer)

Volk Han

Vordell Walker

Wade Barrett (boxer)

Warpath

Wataru Sakata

Wes Brisco (amateur)

Wesna Busic

William Regal

Xavier

Xavier Woods

X-Cal

Yoji Anjoh

Yoshi Tatsu

Yoshiaki Yago

Yoshiaki Yatsu

YOSHI-HASHI

Yoshihiro Takayama

Yuji Hino

Yuji Nagata (shoot fought in New Japan)

Yujiro Takahashi (amateur)

Yumiko Hotta

Yutaka Yoshi

Zumbi

Only a small fraction of people were in UWF, UWF-I, BattleArts, PRIDE, F-1 or trained in MMA.

To be honest, even then you have missed a bunch of people with really obvious MMA experience

[Colly]

Like Kofi Kingston.

[fusionFX!]

Only argument I need right now is that anybody that has had MMA or Boxing training of any kind(mainly the ones mkpunk listed), deserves shooting ticked.

Edit: And another thing snakesonaplane, because some of the guys you're saying shouldn't have shooting ticked, should they have their technical skills dropped?

Edited October 24, 2013 by fusionFX!

[arwrestling]

Saying that we need to look at who UFC or Pride would sign are the only ones who should have it ticked makes no sense... In 2004, NOBODY would or could have predicted Brock Lesnar signing with UFC, let alone becoming champ. I mean he has not had a bazillion training hours, he just happens to be a big guy trained in Amateur Wrestling that used his size to his advantage. Same goes with Bobby Lashley, Batista... Hell Pride signed Akebono, a man who again doesn't have the training you seem to be putting on a pedastal.

Do I think the people who have stats need to be looked at? Yea, for sure... I'm pretty certain that Annie Social has it ticked for Oil Wrestling... I could be wrong, but I don't think shes trained to shoot.

That being said, anyone with legit fighting training/experience should have it ticked; thats MMA, Boxing, Amateur Wrestling, Kickboxing, BJJ, etc.

Trish Stratus was/is training in Muay Thai, had an amateur fight and at one point contemplated moving into MMA. Tell me UFC wouldnt sign her if she asked. Amazing Kong also trained for MMA while in Japan. As far as I'm concerned, they should have it ticked.

NOT football, american or otherwise. Thats dumb.

[fusionFX!]

Some NXT Changes after watching the last 3 episodes.

- Change Mojo Rawley to a face with Legitimate Athlete as the gimmick. Check SS Look. Raise brawl to 65. Change finisher to Splash(Ground).

- Make a tag team between Scott Dawson and Alexander Rusev(The Fighting Legionnaires) with 4 exp. Raise Alexander Rusev's tech to 58, change his selling and stiffness around, and raise his over to 35. Lower his charisma to 65 and check shooting(He knows Sambo and he used to do Sumo wrestling). Change primary finisher to Accolade(Submission).

- Raise Enzo Amore's selling to 66. Raise Colin Cassady's selling to 65.

- Raise Rick Victor's charisma to 70 and his overness to 45. Raise The Ascension's experience to 20. Their team finisher name is Fall of Man.

- Lower Conor O'Brian's speed to 34.

- Raise Corey Graves' technical to 79. Lower speed to 70. Change him to a heel with Ice Man as the gimmick. Raise his over to 60.

- Lower Tyler Breeze's brawl to 43 and technical to 55. Raise over to 44 and charisma to 61. Change secondary finisher to Spinning Wheel Kick(Impact).

- Raise CJ Parker's over to 41 and speed to 52.

- Raise Paige's charisma to 71 and speed to 50.

- Raise Emma's over to 49, charisma to 61, speed to 49, and brawl to 51.

- Raise Sasha Banks' over to 46, charisma to 67, brawl to 38, tech to 41, and Check SS Look.

- Raise Summer Rae's over to 58 and tech to 42. Add a tag team between her and Sasha Banks(The BFF's) with 4 exp.

- Raise Bo Dallas' over to 65. Raise his wages to 20000, just because of his time on RAW and SmackDown when he was in that feud with Wade Barrett. Also change him to a heel.

- Check SS Look for Sami Zayn.

- Lower Bayley's over to 35 and Raise Charlotte's over to 35. Make a tag team between the two with 2 exp.

- Add an Alter-Ego for CJ O'Doyle, Casey Maron. Raise over to 20. Raise selling to 55.

- Raise Sylvester LeFort's over to 30 and raise charisma to 71.

Edit: Change Alisha Ceraso's name to Dani: http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=13199&gimmick=Dani

Edit 2: Add Perry Saturn to the WWE as a non-wrestler with Staff Member as the gimmick: http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=430&gimmick=Perry+Saturn

Edit 3: As a matter of fact, this link proves to be much more influence in adding Saturn back to the WWE: http://www.cagematch.net/?id=71&nr=6147

Edit 4: Another thing, that link with the Saturn return also shows that Shaul Guerrero is returning back to NXT as Raquel Diaz so add her back to the roster as well.

Edit 5: Why does Curtis Axel have menacing checked? There's nothing menacing about him.

Edited October 24, 2013 by fusionFX!

[Rich]

Saying that we need to look at who UFC or Pride would sign are the only ones who should have it ticked makes no sense... In 2004, NOBODY would or could have predicted Brock Lesnar signing with UFC, let alone becoming champ. I mean he has not had a bazillion training hours, he just happens to be a big guy trained in Amateur Wrestling that used his size to his advantage. Same goes with Bobby Lashley, Batista... Hell Pride signed Akebono, a man who again doesn't have the training you seem to be putting on a pedastal.

Discounting the rest of what you say because I agree with you, this is not necesarrily the best way to look at it, as in the almost 10 years since 2004 the landscape has changed as it pertains to MMA so much with its explosion of popularity since 2005, you can't say "we can't just look at it this way as it is not directly relatable" things have changed and maybe the wya we consider the data set should change. I wouldn;t necesarily agree that EVERYONE who has trained amatuer wrestling would have a shooting ability, as sure they could go for the take down but that doens't mean they can do anything with you on the ground, amateur wrestling doesn't teach you submissions, it merely teaches you how to win at high school wrestling. It's my opinion that unless someone is trained or has competed at a very high level in a combat sport then the shooting ability should remain unticked

[arwrestling]

Alisha Ceraso is no longer under a devellopmental deal hence the name change from Dani. She needs to stay as is.

[mkpunk]

Guys like Punk, Bryan and Richards though trained in grappling though. Punk trained with Rener Gracie (which is the sweatshirt he wears to the ring.) Bryan trained with Xtreme Couture before signing his WWE deal in 2009. Richards is trained in Ju-Jitsu. All three COULD do a form of MMA. Have they liked the men you mentioned, no.

The full list of shooters in the game (I crossed out those in PRIDE/F1 and those with known shoot experience through training):

Only a small fraction of people were in UWF, UWF-I, BattleArts, PRIDE, F-1 or trained in MMA.

I think the situation is pretty clear - ultimately this is not about peoples level or type of training - it's about whether or not they would be likely to turn up in Pride FC (if the company was still around), so lets say the UFC, as a substitute.

That's it, I think it just confuses the matter to bring up other things like so-and-so did this Gracie workshop, knowing MMA techniques is very different to being at the level required to be signed by Pride [the 'shoot' stat in a nut-shell]... and being signed by Pride (UFC?) is the only thing we need to care about when making this determination. That is literally the only relevant criteria for this stat.

Can I see any of those guys competing in the Pride (or UFC) in future? No.

Do I think even if given that it's unlikely, that they would 'qualify' to compete in the UFC in some hypothetical universe? No. Knowing MMA techniques is a different universe to being signed by Pride FC to compete in a real fight. These people dedicated years to training not a few hours, or as a hobby.

As I stated in my last post, 'MMA inspired' training isn't sufficient - otherwise virtually anyone could have 'shoot' ticked, it's not about how many BJJ workshops you attended under a Gracie, have you competed in Pride? Would Pride sign you in future? No? No tick.

You have the wrong idea if you think it's about level of training, shooting ability etc.

'Shoot' = Would Pride FC sign them to fight?

'Shoot' /=/ Can this person 'shoot'?

I understand that there a hundreds of guys with the box ticked already, and looking at this list only quickly you can see that people in the past have applied the second definition, and not the first (thinking it was a measure of MMA knowledge rather than understanding its purpose in game). There are too many people on that list to mention here that obviously would never work for Pride or be offered a contract to fight there, these people should be obvious. Basically the way the stat has been used in the past runs against its intention in the game, it came to be used in a certain way, but that doesn't mean we should keep using it incorrectly.

I mean, Pride FC doesn't even sign female fighters, and there are dozens of women on that list - it's pretty clear the stat has been used wrong and people don't understand its purpose or what should qualify someone to have it. Just because a lot of people have it that shouldn't, doesn't mean we should continue to hand it out on false grounds.

I could see guys like Kyle O'Reilly, CM Punk, Daniel Bryan and Davey Richards going to a promotion like BATTLEARTS, UWF or UWF-I which are more wrestling inspired "shoot" fighting.

Shoot in the game is for shoot fight experience which could include shoot training due to groups like Battlearts (not sure if they go off shooting ability ticked.

The full list of shooters in the game (I crossed out those in PRIDE/F1 and those with known shoot experience through training):

2 Cold Scorpio

Aaron Aguilera

Adam Brown

Adam Watt

Adrian Serrano

Adrianna

AJ Styles

Akebono (sumo)

Akiiko Ito

Akira Maeda

Al Snow

Alberto Del Rio

Alex Pain

Alexander Kozlov (Sambo)

Alexander Otsuka

Alexis Bliss

Amara Suloev

American Kickboxer II

Amy Dumas (Ju-Jitsu)

Amy Lee

Andy Leavine

Andy Sumner (Sambo)

Angel Orsini

Angela Fong

Annie Social

Anthony Henry

April Davids

Arashi

Atsushi Aoki

Atsushi Sawada

Ayako Sato

Akyut

Bas Rutten (I know he has shot somewhere)

Bas Van Kunder

Batista

Bete Noire

Beth Phoenix (amateur)

Big Vito

Bill Goldberg

Bitsadze Tariel

Blade Mathews

Blue Wolf (was in NJPW during the F1inspired era)

Bob Backlund (amaetur shooter)

Bob Sapp

Bobby Fish (amaetur MMA fighter)

Bobby Lashley

Booker T

Brandon Gatson

Brandon Groom

Brandon Hill

Brandon Parker

Bravehart

Bray Wyatt

Brent Albright

Brian Black

Brian Gamble (kickboxer)

Brian Johnston

Brock Lesnar

Brock Singleton

Brute Issei

Bryan Alvarez

Buff Bagwell

BUSHI

Butterbean

Cal Bishop (amateur)

Caprice Coleman

Captain New Japan

Carl Contini

Cat Power

Chad Baxter

Charlie Haas (amateur)

Chasyn Rance

Checkmate

Chilly Willy

Chris Colen

Chris Dickinson

Chris Ewing

CM Punk

Cody Rhodes (amateur)

Crossbones

Curt Daniels

Daichi Hashimoto

Daisuke Ikeda

Dalis La Caribena (kickboxer)

Dan Bobish

Dan Severn

Dana Lee

D'Angelo Dinero (boxer)

Danger

Daniel Bryan

Daniel Puder

Dann Bondauce (boxer)

Danny Inferno

Danshoku Dino

Davey Richards (Ju-Jitso)

David Starr

Deano

Denton Blackwell (amateur)

Destroyer

Dino Carter

Disco Fury

Dolph Ziggler (amateur)

Don Frye

Doovan Ruddick

Douglas Willaims

Drew Haskins

Drew Johnson

Dustin Corino

Earl Huff

Egan Inoue

Elix Skipper

Enson Inoue

Eric Bischoff (karate)

Eric Mastrocola

Erik Hammer

Erin Bray

Ernest Miller (karate)

Ethan Page

Evan Bourne (amateur)

Evan Gelistico

Evan Karagias

Eve Torres (teaches Gracie Ju-Jitso)

Fady Madani

Famous B

Fang Suzuki

Finlay

Flex Freeman (amateur)

Frank Trigg

Fuego (I would remove this)

Fuuka

Gary Goodridge

Gary Jay

Genba Hirayanagi

Genichiro Tenryu

Geza Kalman Jr.

Gigante Silva

Glacier

GOKU-DO (Pat Tanaka)

Great Sasuke

Guivi Sissaouri

Hade Vansen

Hailey Hatred

Haku

Hannibal (amateur)

Hardcore Holly

Harry Smith (trained in MMA)

Hawaiian Lion

Hawk Younkins

Heath Slater

Heddi Karaoui (kickboxer)

Heidenreich

Henry Godwinn

Hikaru

Hirooki Goto

Hiroshi Hase

Hiroshi Tanahasi

Hiroshi Yamato

Hirotaka Yokoi

Histeria III (MMA guy)

Ian Decay

Ice Man

Imani Lee

Ivanna B. Eighten

Ivelisse Velez (kickboxer?)

J Bronson (boxer/amateur?)

Jack Bull

Jaden

Jaka

Jake O'Reilly

James Ewing

James Maritato (UWF-I)

James Storm

James Wallace

Jane Blond

Jason Jordan (amateur)

J-Biggs

Jaqueline Moore (kickboxer)

JD Maverick

Jeff Lewis Neal

Jemma Palmer

Jenny jodin

Jeremiah Riggs (part of one of the Ultimate Fighter seasons and fought with Bellator)

Jeremy Young

Jerry Flynn (kickboxer)

Jesse Neal

Jessica Hatch

Jewells Malone

Jinsei Shinzaki

Jody Fleisch

John Alessio

John Balsamo

John Bradshaw Layfield

John Dixson

Johnny Phere

Joker

Jon Rekon

Jon Ryan

Jonathan Coachman

Josh Barnett

josianne The Pussycat

Joy Giovanni

Juice Jennings

Jun Akiyama

Jushin Liger

Justice Smith

Justin Sane

Jutaro Nakao

Kafu

KAI

Kane

Karsten Kretschmer

Kassius Ono

Katey Harvey

Katsuhiko Nagata

Katsuhiko Nakamjima (some form of martial arts)

Katusuyori Shibata

Kazunari Murakami

Kazuhi Sakuraba

KazuyukiFujita

KC Spinelli

Kiichi Oba

Keiji Mutoh

Ken Shamrock

Kendall Skye

Kendo Kashin

Kenn Doane

Kenneth Cameron

Kenou (kickboxer)

Kenshin Chikano (kickboxer)

Kensuke Sasaki

Kevin Northcutt

Kevin Sullivan

Kid Kash (MmA)

Kiyoshi tamura

Kohei Sato

Koji Kanemoto

Koji Kitao (sumo)

Konnan (boxer)

Kurt Angle (amateur)

KUSHIDA

Kyle Maverick

Kyle O'Reilly

Kyle Semenoff

Kyoko Inoue

Kyoko Kimura

Lady Diamond Dee

Lamar Braxton Porter

Larry Zbyszko

Lash LeRoux

Latash Marzolla

LeilaniKai

Lince Dorado

Lionheart BCW

Lisa Fury

Low Ki (worked a very strike heavy offense)

Lucky tHURTeen

Lucy Clayden

Lyguila

Madison Eagles

Madusa (kickboxer)

Magnificent Mimi

Manabu Hara

Manabu Nakanishi

Marc Mero (boxer)

Mark Coleman

Marshall Von Erich

Marty Jannetty

Maryse Ouellet

Masa Takanashi

Masaaki Mochizuki (strike heavy offense)

Masaktsu Funaki

Masamitsu Kochi

Masanobu Fuchi

Masahi Aoyagi (UWF-I)

Masato (who?)

Masayuki Kono

Masayuki Naruse

Mason Ryan

Matt Barela

Matt haffari

Maven Bentley

Maxx Payne

Maybach Taniguchi

Megumi Yabushita

Meiko Satomura

Metal Master (shoot wrestler Chad Collyer)

MiaYim

Michiko Omukai

Michiyoshi Ohara

Mick Foley (amateur)

Mickael Zaki

Mike Barton (boxer)

Mike Kehner

Mike Quackenbush

Mike Sharona

Mike Tolar

Mileena D-Bomb

Minoru Suzuki

Minoru Tanaka

Minowaman

Mirko Filipovic

Misterioso

Mitsuhiro Matsunaga

Mitsuya Nagai

Mizuki Endo

Mo Sexton

Mojo Rawley

Mortimer Plumtree

Mr. Anderson

Mr. Strongko

MTX

Muhammed Lawal

Munenori Sawa

Murat Bosporus

Murilo Bustamante

Namajague

Naomici Marufuji

Naoya Ogawa

Natalya Neidhart

Nathan Jones

Neil Faith

New Jack

New York Knockout Nikki

Nick Logan

Nick Mitchell

Nick Nelson

Nikita Fink

Nobujko Takada

Nobutaka Araya

Nosferatu

Nyla Rose

ODB

Oliver Grey

Oliver John

Oman Tortuga

Omar Akbar

One Man Gang

Orlando Jordan

Pat Buck

Patrick G.E.I.L. Schulz

Paul Lombardi

Paul London (amateur)

Paul Roma

Perry Saturn

Pete Kaasnova

Pierre Carl Ouelette

Pimp Fatha (boxer/kickboxer)

Pippa L'Vinn

Poison Appollo

Prince Devitt

Princess Of Power

Quinson Valentino

Quintin "Rampage" Jackson

Race Steele

Rachel Summerlyn

Randy OrtonRaze

Reno

Reuben De Jong

Rhys Youngblood

Rich Ortiz

Richie Steamboat (amateur wrestler)

Rick Mathis

Rick Steiner (amateur)

Rick Vain

Rico Bushido

Riki Choshu

Rob Van Dam

Roddy Piper (boxer)

Rodney Mack

Ron Harris

Ron Mathis

Ron Waterman

Rosa Mendes

Ross Von Erich

Rowdy Red

Rush Margera

Russian Bruiser Anya (MMA)

Ryan Genesis

Ryoji Sai

Ryuji Goto

Ryuji Hijikata

RyushiYanagisawa

Ryusuke Taguchi

Saar Bokstein

Sadyst

Sam Greco

Sam Shields

Sami Callihan

Samoa Joe (should be)

Santino Marella (martial arts gym)

Sara Del Rey

Sara Jay

Sarah Stock

Sasha Banks

Sasori

Satoru Sayama

Satoshi Kajiwara

Savanah Riley

Savio Vega

Sawyer Fulton

Scott Steiner (amateur)

Sean McCully

Sean O'Haire

SeiyaSnada

Sensei

Seth Shai

Sexxxy Eddy

Shad Gaspard (boxer)

Shane Helms

Shane Strickland

Shaun Tempers

Shawn Riddik

Shawn Stasiak

Shelton Benjamin (amateur)

Shin Ku

Shinobu Kanadori

Shinsuke Nakamura

Sid abulous

Silvie Silver

Simply Luscious

Sinn Bodhi

Siren Monroe

Skandalo

Snake Brody

Solo

Sonny Onno (kickboxer)

Sonoko Kato

Spence Slater

Spencer Khrone

Steve Blackman

Steve Lewington

Sumie Sakai

Super Boy

Super Strong Machine

Super Tiger II

Supreme Lee Great

Susan Mortan

SUSHI

Suwama

Sybil Starr

Sylvester leFort

Sylvester Terkay

Syuri (kickboxer)

TAC

Tado Yasuda

TaDarius Thomas (capoeria)

Taichi Ishikari

Taiyo Kea

Tajiri (marital arts)

TAKA Michinoku

Takkao Inoue

Takashi Echigo

Takashi Iizuka

Takashi Sugiura

Takehiro Murahama

Takeshi Rikio

Taku Anzawa

Takuma Sano (Naoki Sano)

Tama Tonga

Tamon Honda (amateur)

Tank

Tank Abbott

Tanny Mouse

Tanomusaku Toba

Tara

TARU

Tarn Terrell

Tatushito Takaiwa

Tatsuo Nakano

Tatsuhi Yamaguchi

Tatsutoshi Goto

Taz (should be)

The Amazing Darkstone

The Barbarian

The Great Khali

The Great Tetsujin

The iron Shiek

The Nighthawk

The Stro

The Zebra Kid

Tiana Ringer

Tiger Ali Singh

Tiger Mask IV

Tim Donst

Tito Ortiz

TOA

Togi Makabe

Tom Howard

Tommy Cobat

Tommy End

Tommy Force

Tommy Tayloy

Tomohiko Hashimoto

Tony Atlas

Tony Jones

Tony Kozina

Toru Yano

Toshiaki Kawada

Tracy Smothers

Travis Tyler (amateur)

Tristin Hayze

Troy Bond

Truitt Fields

Tsubasa Kuragaki

Tsuyoshi Kikuchi

Tyrone Evans (boxer)

Ulf Herman

Ultimate Fighter Caruso

Undertaker (MMA enthusiast)

Villano III

Virgil (boxer)

Volk Han

Vordell Walker

Wade Barrett (boxer)

Warpath

Wataru Sakata

Wes Brisco (amateur)

Wesna Busic

William Regal

Xavier

Xavier Woods

X-Cal

Yoji Anjoh

Yoshi Tatsu

Yoshiaki Yago

Yoshiaki Yatsu

YOSHI-HASHI

Yoshihiro Takayama

Yuji Hino

Yuji Nagata (shoot fought in New Japan)

Yujiro Takahashi (amateur)

Yumiko Hotta

Yutaka Yoshi

Zumbi

Only a small fraction of people were in UWF, UWF-I, BattleArts, PRIDE, F-1 or trained in MMA.

To be honest, even then you have missed a bunch of people with really obvious MMA experience.

I could have missed more without double checking. It was late when I did that list last night.

Saying that we need to look at who UFC or Pride would sign are the only ones who should have it ticked makes no sense... In 2004, NOBODY would or could have predicted Brock Lesnar signing with UFC, let alone becoming champ. I mean he has not had a bazillion training hours, he just happens to be a big guy trained in Amateur Wrestling that used his size to his advantage. Same goes with Bobby Lashley, Batista... Hell Pride signed Akebono, a man who again doesn't have the training you seem to be putting on a pedastal.

Do I think the people who have stats need to be looked at? Yea, for sure... I'm pretty certain that Annie Social has it ticked for Oil Wrestling... I could be wrong, but I don't think shes trained to shoot.

That being said, anyone with legit fighting training/experience should have it ticked; thats MMA, Boxing, Amateur Wrestling, Kickboxing, BJJ, etc.

Trish Stratus was/is training in Muay Thai, had an amateur fight and at one point contemplated moving into MMA. Tell me UFC wouldnt sign her if she asked. Amazing Kong also trained for MMA while in Japan. As far as I'm concerned, they should have it ticked.

NOT football, american or otherwise. Thats dumb.

I think this is the best argument for what SHOULD be included for shooting ability. Though I would add the Harts due to their obvious experience in Dungeon.

Edited October 24, 2013 by mkpunk

[fusionFX!]

- Abbadon is 40, he was born in Haiti, he's a heavyweight(233 lbs), and his finishers should be Frog Sault(Top Rope). Raise speed to 11. Change Abbadon's and Cremator's tag team name to The Rejected.

- Lower Abudadein's wages to 8000.

- Raise Aeroboy's wages to 15000 and stiffness to 40. Newer pic of him: http://th02.deviantart.net/fs39/PRE/i/2008/326/4/8/AeroBoy_by_azmodeuz6.jpg

- Lower Aidan Pringle's wages to 10000. Raise charisma to 66, tech to 47, and brawl to 70. Lower speed to 26.

- Lower Al Barone's wages to 6000.

- Nothing on Aldo Suave.

- Change Alex Arion's primary finisher to secondary, set Beta Splash(Top Rope) as his primary. Raise over to 17. Lower charisma to 57.

- There's no other info on Altar Boy Matthew except for 1 match back in 2002 when he teamed with Luke Hawx(as Altar Boy Luke). I'd say lower his over to 9 and wages to 3000.

- Andy Jaxx retired in 2003, lower wages to 3000.

- No matches for Anthony Adonis since 2001, lower over to 10 and wages to 2000.

- Antonio Honda is 31 years old. His finishing move is Thesz Press(Impact). http://representingpuroresu.wordpress.com/ddt/antonio-honda/

- Change Apollyon's secondary finisher to Demon Clutch, leave it as a submission move. Raise over to 20 and wages to 12000. Lower stiffness to 28, raise selling to 61, and brawl to 38.

- Raise Arch Kincaid's over to 18 and lower wages to 5000(been inactive since 2006).

- Change Archadia's finishers to Calf Kick and Gay Bash(Both impact).

- No info on Armageddon.

- Change Aykut's name to Aykut Artan. He's also been inactive since 2008 so make him a non-wrestler. Uncheck shooting.

- Azeem is 34. Change name back to Azeem The Dream. Raise over to 21 and wages to 12000. Lower stiffness to 30. Newer pic: http://allstar-wrestling.com/wp-content/uploads/AzeemTheDream1.jpg

- Babi Slymm is 35. Check menacing. Lower wages to 7000. Raise charisma to 69. Raise over to 18.

- Lower Bad Dog Bullock's over to 8 and wages to 9000.

- No info on Big Daddy Kahuna since 2000, lower over to 9 and wages to 5000.

- No info on Big Jay or Big Will.

- Once again, I think this is a mistake on this wrestler: http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=7651

- Raise Black Pearl's over to 20. Check SS Look?

- Bobby Collins is Canadian. Lower charisma to 54.

- Raise Brandon Espinosa's wages to 12000 and over to 23. Raise selling to 54, brawl to 53, and lower tech to 55.

- No info on Brian Lee JAPAN or Buck Wylde.

- One match for Caesar Suave back in 2000, lower wages to 2000 and over to 6.

- Raise Cameron Skyy's wages to 7000 and over to 19. Check SS Look.

- No info on Carnage.

- Chad Dobbins and Jason Dobbins has been inactive since 2004. Lower over to 9 and wages to 4000.

- Chaka hasn't wrestled since 2002, lower over to 7 and wages to 3000.

- No info on Chris Colione.

- Chrisjen Hayme's finishers on Cagematch are 450 Splash(Top Rope) and Designated Driver(Impact). Add a team between him and Drew Haskins, ATL All Stars with 3-4 exp. Newer pic: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130913165125/prowrestling/images/thumb/f/f9/1ae223eeX12024_Chrisjen_Hayme.jpg/320px-1ae223eeX12024_Chrisjen_Hayme.jpg

- Change Christian Haze's finisher to Haze Crusher(Impact). No other info since 2004, Lower over to 6 and wages to 2000.

[mkpunk]

DGUSA/EVOLVE updates:

Remove Alex Reynolds (last appeared in June 2012)

Add Biff Busick Lower Midcard Face? (appeared for the Style Battle shows and working the DGUSA weekned in November)

Remove Brian Kendrick (only appeared on the January and Mania shows)

Remove Cheech (last appeared in June 2012)

Remove Flip Kendrick (last appeared in September 2011)

Add Harlem Bravado Lower Midcard Tweener (appeared for the Style Battle shows and working the DGUSA weekned in November)

Remove John Silver (last appeared in June 2012)

Add Lancelot Bravado Lower Midcard Tweener (appeared for the Style Battle shows and working the DGUSA weekned in November)

Remove Louis Lyndon (last appeared in September 2011)

Add Mark Angelosetti Lower Midcard Cocky Heel (appeared for the Style Battle shows and working the DGUSA weekned in November)

Remove Mike Cruz (last appeared in June 2012)

Remove Pinkie Sanchez (last appeared in September 2012)

Remove Player Dos (last appeared for the Mania shows)

Remove Player Uno (last appeared for the Mania shows)

Add a stable with Akira Tozawa, Masato Yoshino, Ricochet, SHINGO and Uhaa Nation Named Monster Express