House of the Dragon (Game of Thrones) Thread

[DMN in the House]

Wow, people actually feel that way about Dany? She might be the most flawed and interesting character in the entire series.

[Roster Depth Sicko No. 2]

I don't disagree that she started out that way, and I agreed up until season three,

Book Spoilers

but having read the rest of the books waiting for season 4, I can't get over the fact that she still hasn't reached Westeros. Kinda takes away a little knowing she ain't gonna wreck havoc amongst the main characters even after all this time.

To me, her biggest flaw is that she's still on the wrong fucking continent. Maybe when the series overtakes the books I'll start appreciating it again, or now that she's met up with the Dothraki again, but for now, I'm just disappointed.

[MalaCloudy Black]

If people didn't see her flaws before they will in the coming episodes, I think.

[Walker]

Dany's story suffers because she has been given an end game on the face of things. People are waiting for her to make strides in that direction. They just want her to take her army and her dragons and conquer Westeros.

[Your Mom]

Another show I'm never going to watch again!

[Ruki]

Another show I'm never going to watch again!

Because of the

rape scene

?

Why didn't you stop in the first season when it happened there?

[Your Mom]

Well not that I need to justify it really but sometimes I try and give shows a second chance

[DMN in the House]

I haven't seen the scene, and I'm definitely not going to defend rape in any way, but I'm curious if you feel that it shouldn't be used ever in a dramatic work (which is a stance I wouldn't agree with, but could understand), or if it was something in particular about this one?

[Your Mom]

I don't feel it served the story at all and this show is really gratuitous about this sort of thing. The fact that the showrunners added it and it wasn't even part of the original source material doesn't help.

I'll never be comfortable with it being used at all, but if it's integral to the story and they don't over use it I'll tolerate those sort of scenes or just fast forward past it if I know it's coming. I just have a really hard time with it no matter what though

[DMN in the House]

All completely understandable. I was mostly just curious about your thoughts.

The fact that they changed it really doesn't even make sense, considering the history/relationship between the two characters. It's a huge change and departure from the source material.

[Roster Depth Sicko No. 2]

Bare with me when I say this, but if you take Dany out of the story, what do you really lose?

Spoilers, both book and safety.

Here's an alternative 'Dany free' version.

Smuggled across the Narrow Sea by Varys, former HOTK Jon Connington raises Aegon VI under aliases, teaching him of his heritage, how to fight, and many other things a King would need to know throughout his childhood. The only things they took from Westeros are some clothes, a small amount of gold, and his family's prize possessions - three dragon eggs.

Fast track to GoT, Connington speaks to Illyrio Mopatis, who promises him men in the form of the Dothraki warriors, as he believes in the Targaryen cause. Aegon learns from the Dothraki, seeing the way they act, and it helps him decide what type of king he wants to be. Upon hearing of all the talk of Kings, Khal Drogo decides he wants the throne for himself, trying to battle with Aegon, only to be slain by Connington. Drogo dead, the Dothraki fight amongst themselves over new leadership, whilst Aegon and Jon flee to the nearby city of Qarth.

At Qarth, they are welcomed by the Thirteen, who after some persuading give them entry - for the fee of one of the dragon eggs. They reluctantly agree, but state they will only receive the egg once they are fit, and given troops and gold as a price. A short time later, the council is murdered by the conspiring Xaro Xhoan Daxos, who feigns belief in the Targaryen clause and invites Aegon, alone, to the House of the Undying. There, Pyat Pree appears with the eggs, and unknowingly hatches them into dragons. Their previous agreement disregarded now the dragons are hatched, Daxos tries to murder Connington so they can kill Aegon unopposed and take the dragons for themselves. The plan fails when Barristan Selmy arrives and slays Daxos and Pree, swearing fealty to Aegon joining the Kingsguard. When Aegon asked how he found them Connington reveals the deceptive truth that he spied for Varys. Aegon forgives him, due to bringing him up into the man he is today, and the three what they can with the small group of people Barristan has in his support.

In search of a greater number of troops, Aegon, Jon and Barristan head to Astapor and obtain the Unsullied in the same way Dany did, before moving on to Meereen. Whilst there, they find and hire the Second Sons mercenary group, who have with them Tyrion Lannister, smuggled by Varys following the Purple Wedding, who joins the Kingsguard upon the promise of Casterly Rock should Aegon become King. Troops now expanded to multiple thousands, Tyrion negotiates the sale of hundreds of ships, weapons and supplies with the promise of payment on his honor as a Lannister when Aegon becomes King. As negotiations go on, one of the dragons is seen flying away towards the Iron Islands, captured by Victarion Greyjoy using the dragon horn to legitimise his claim to be King of the Iron Islands and go against his brother's orders to kill Aegon. Connington is fatally wounded in the incident, and fueled by anger at his closest friend's death, Aegon sets off atop his dragon - Tyrion riding the other - fleet in tow under the leadership of Barristan, towards the continent of Westeros.

I probably haven't written it perfectly and it changes/rearranges some things, but I can easily see a version without Daenerys in it whatsoever that still works.

Edited April 21, 2014 by JeriCodeBreaker

[DMN in the House]

In response to the above...

Theoretically, because I'm not 100% on how the line to the Iron Throne works in Westeros, Dany has a better claim than Aegon, since Rhaegar was never king.

Also, because, if R+L=J is true, then the story comes down to Jon Snow and Dany, which has more possibilities than Jon Snow and Aegon.

It's not like she's been doing absolutely nothing, especially in the books. She's learning how to lead, how to be a queen. Essentially, she's growing up, and if you just rush her to Westeros, you lose 90% of the story. The best part about ASOFI is that it's not a dogmatic, this happens then this happens then this happens, predictable story. It's far more like 'real' history, whe random shit just happens that spins things off in an unpredictable direction, than 'story' history.

Oh, and, thus far, Jon Connington is the only interesting thing about the Aegon sideline. Otherwise the entire idea of ANOTHER young contender to the throne was done more interestingly with Robb Stark and even Renly.

[TEOL]

I don't feel it served the story at all and this show is really gratuitous about this sort of thing. The fact that the showrunners added it and it wasn't even part of the original source material doesn't help.

I'll never be comfortable with it being used at all, but if it's integral to the story and they don't over use it I'll tolerate those sort of scenes or just fast forward past it if I know it's coming. I just have a really hard time with it no matter what though

Yeah, I already had a sense that this season was going to be more spectacle over substance than before but this just drives that point home. No justification for it whatsoever because it doesn't further either of the characters involved and smacks of a desperate attempt for attention.

Spoilers for later in the season (probably):

I suspect it's only going to get worse with Sansa in the Eyrie.

[Roster Depth Sicko No. 2]

In response to your response, DMN...

Doesn't Westeros not follow equal primogeniture, meaning Dany doesn't have a claim if there's a male heir? I recall them making a fuss out of Arianne Martell's plot to put Myrcella Baratheon on the throne under Dornish law, which I guess is why Daenerys doesn't have a solid claim in Westerosi eyes.

I will admit not considering the R+L=J theory with that post, which I suppose is kinda imperative. Although, the theory still applies, it just depends on Jon's age in relation to Aegon's, and the whole bastard thing in relation to lineage.

I agree with your third point wholeheartedly, it definitely makes it feel more real with the learning to rule aspect, but I don't understand why they couldn't have just done that with Aegon in between the things I mentioned.

Like you said, Jon is the most interesting part of his story, which is why I scrapped Jorah Mormont and used him instead. I understand what you're saying about the 'too many young options', but Renly was barely in the story, and Robb being King in the North seemed primarily to be just to avenge Ned and give the Lannisters their first conflict. The whole secrecy around Jon's parentage made it obvious, to me at least, that there was some sort of royal aspect to it and he was the main Stark child (that and being a viewpoint character, whilst Robb wasn't).

[MalaCloudy Black]

GRRM's responded:

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

[DMN in the House]

That's a pretty solid response.

Also, JCB (Do you mind if I call you JCB?)

Given the Targaryen incestuous marriages tradition, I think that gives yet another reason for Dany to exist.

OH SHIT... I just remembered! Three dragons. That means you need three riders. I believe they talk about how a dragon only has one rider it's entire life, though a rider may ride more than one dragon. That means you need Dany, Aegon, and one more, which gives you what is the easiest answer to why you can't get rid of her

Of course, this all ignores the white (undead, frozen) elephant in the room... which is that Dany, Aegon, or anyone else coming to Westeros might not matter, since the soon to be most pressing concern will be winter, and the massive army of white walkers.

[Josh]

There's a helluva lot of spoilers I feel like I can't open in here, since I haven't read the books.

RE: Last night's episode (non-book related):

I had

just begun to have the slightest amount of sympathy for Jamie, but now I'm right back to "Fuck that guy, hope he dies right now."

[MalaCloudy Black]

I get that.

I feel like they basically torpedoed any goodwill people had towards Jaime after that. I mean, what next? People are going to be less invested in him, his learning to fight again, and just.. him in general, I feel like. It's a shame because he's easily a favorite POV character for a lot of people when it comes to the books, largely because of his gradual transformation I feel like. That's going to be something that's going to be really hard to pull off in the TV series now that "rapist" is a part of it.

[DMN in the House]

I get that.

I feel like they basically torpedoed any goodwill people had towards Jaime after that. I mean, what next? People are going to be less invested in him, his learning to fight again, and just.. him in general, I feel like. It's a shame because he's easily a favorite POV character for a lot of people when it comes to the books, largely because of his gradual transformation I feel like. That's going to be something that's going to be really hard to pull off in the TV series now that "rapist" is a part of it.

Book spoilers, show spoilers (I guess?), character development talk.

This. This so hard. I hadn't thought of it, maybe because I can't actually watch the shows, but making him basically a rapist will absolutely destroy what was one of my favorite character arcs from the book. Jaime went from being a guy who you pretty much disliked, and who had very little character outside of 'arrogant prick who's really great at everything that matters physically as a knight' to losing all of that, losing his hand, and showing that, deep down inside somewhere, he actually did have honor, courage, and fortitude. Things like him basically admitted at, despite the fact that he was his son, he knew Joffrey dying was the best thing for the kingdoms, and much, much more, made him actually...human, and one of my favorite, andid argue, one of thebest, characters in the books.

I have no idea if, or how, they'll be able to make that happen now.

[Benjamin]

I don't know, they managed to make Drogo a fan favorite in less than a season after what he did, I'm sure they can pull it off here too. He's going to have a bunch of action, he's not going to stay in the capital long after all.