The Comic Book Thread (spoilers)

[Skummy]

On ‎05‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 22:55, Jasonmufc said:

I feel that a lot of the people who are raging over the whole HydraCAP stuff haven't read the comics, or haven't bothered to read further than a few issues at best. There's a lot of wrong opinions floating around about what has been written, and from what I have read I am pretty sure that Kobik (the sentient cosmic cube) still changed the past and mass-altered the perception of humanity, rather than what some people saying as 'The allies used a cube', although I haven't yet read Cap #16 so it might've been revealed there. Or i'm misremembering reading things, OR Kobik altered my memories...

And Steve clearly isn't subservient to anyone, and rather seeks to control HYDRA himself, really in a misguided attempt to 'help' the world, although in his skewed and altered recollection of his past.

It's not nearly as terrible as people claim it to be, it has some weird jumps it makes to make everything work (especially Steve effortlessly convincing Zemo that they've always been BFF's rather than enemies), but I feel there's much worse stuff that has been written by Marvel to ellicit reaction or create hype through controversy and uproar.

For me - and, from what I've read, a lot of other people - the problem isn't "evil Cap" so much as the combination of "Cube did it", of the same frustration that people felt when Marvel decided half the heroes you loved had been Skrulls all along, in that it meant years of storytelling you were invested in meant jack shit (all that stuff you liked? Forget about it, a Cube changed everything), and in a broader sense, a concerted effort to distance HYDRA from the Nazis.

Hell, Captain America as a HYDRA villain infiltrating the upper echelons of American power is a pretty timely storyline. That would make sense, if it were better executed. The crux of the modern Captain America is that he's a man out of time, with a strict moral code, often torn between the way things are done now and the way he feels things should be done - it doesn't take much of a tonal shift for him to become a pseudo-villain, with some intelligent writing. "His memories were changed and now he's a baddy" isn't enough for me. And the whole "HYDRA aren't the Nazis" thing feels like it's purposefully been done because Marvel are actively kicking back at any suggestion they had a progressive or "SJW" agenda, and the shittier of their writers are taking a "not everything bad is a Nazi" stance.

But it also shows they lack the courage of their convictions - they went for the big shocking reveal of Captain America as a member of HYDRA, then immediately started saying, "oh, but HYDRA aren't Nazis. And he's kind of a good member of HYDRA, really, deep down". They want to have their cake and eat it too.

 

Personally, I'm far more annoyed at the suggestion that Magneto might be a member of HYDRA. If there's ever a character with even less reason to be aligned with a Nazi group than Captain America, it's Magneto.

[=BK=]

Hold the fucking phone. Magneto might be a member?! He spent his time in his last solo book trying to track down Red Skull and murder him even before Skull stole Charles' brain just because he was a Nazi.

[JasonM]

46 minutes ago, =BK= said:

Hold the fucking phone. Magneto might be a member?! He spent his time in his last solo book trying to track down Red Skull and murder him even before Skull stole Charles' brain just because he was a Nazi.

Well, didn't you read Skummy's post. Marvel is trying to white-wash HYDRA into this unambiguous organization that was good and wholesome. Red Skull was the big bad guy who pushed HYDRA towards evil, and now that he's dead and Steve is running the show it seemingly makes all their past transgressions under Red Skull A-OK.

It really is flimsy comic logic at its best, because regardless of who is running that show, a guy like Magneto would want to turn anything HYDRA to ashes.

I guess it means that nobody inside the Marvel creative team really stood up and went 'Hold the fuck up, guys. We're about to have a holocaust survivor and fiercely independent extremist mutant team up with an organization that was for all intents associated with the nazi's in the 30's and 40's, what the fuck are we doing...'

What makes it even worse in hindsight is that HYDRA had the power and technology to prevent the holocaust, and all the other atrocities committed by the nazi's, but they willingly worked with Hitler (even if it was just that rascal Red Skull pushing the organization the wrong way!) and the Nazi war machine to try and have a Nazi world order.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Jasonmufc

[Skummy]

I think it's still up in the air whether they're actually going with Magneto as a member, or if that was just a variant cover - though I'm a little behind the times, so may have missed something.

The entire crux of Magneto's character is that he's a holocaust survivor, though, and that's what makes him, for me, the most compelling villain in the Marvel universe.

He's not just some power-hungry diabolical lunatic, he's a victim motivated by a mixture of fear and good intentions. The reason he's an extremist and sometime megalomaniac is that he's seen where prejudice leads, and thinks that preventing a repeat of what he has lived through is justified no matter the means. The idea of him siding with a Nazi organisation is anathema to his entire character - even if we go with the ret-conning that HYDRA aren't properly actually Nazis any more, which I still hate, Magneto is so principled a character that he shouldn't be willingly working alongside anyone who ever colluded with the Nazis. If you can't grasp that, you have no business writing for that character.

Jack Kirby would be rolling in his grave, for sure.

[MalaCloudy Black]

So the big reveal in Secret Empire #2...

Spoiler

... there's two Steve Rogers?!

In the last couple pages, a lady's attacked in the forest by a gang of villains, and then she's saved by a blonde, bearded man wearing combat fatigues who says "I'm Steve Rogers. I'm trying to get home."

Also, it seems that Hydra Cap is having doubts about his villainy. Hydra wiped an entire city off the map because they were supporting the Resistance, but Hydra Cap has a conversation with Baron Zemo about how he didn't order the attack, because he "couldn't bring himself to do it".

 

[JasonM]

Was to be expected, as always. They have to come back on the things they wrote because they lack the drive to make lasting changes to the Marvel Universe, instead of playing the true long con and having Cap be 'StEvil' for a long time, they just find a way to make it all for nothing. Or at least, make it all for very little.

[Benji]

On 10/05/2017 at 11:36, Jasonmufc said:

I guess it means that nobody inside the Marvel creative team really stood up and went 'Hold the fuck up, guys. We're about to have a holocaust survivor and fiercely independent extremist mutant team up with an organization that was for all intents associated with the nazi's in the 30's and 40's, what the fuck are we doing...'

My bet is they stood up and said it, but got shot down because they knew it would get people's attention and people would read out of intrigue, even if it's just to piss on it. Marvel is basically just basically attempting every quick "shock your values" tactic they can lately. It's shit and lazy.

On 10/05/2017 at 11:46, Skummy said:

He's not just some power-hungry diabolical lunatic, he's a victim motivated by a mixture of fear and good intentions. The reason he's an extremist and sometime megalomaniac is that he's seen where prejudice leads, and thinks that preventing a repeat of what he has lived through is justified no matter the means. The idea of him siding with a Nazi organisation is anathema to his entire character - even if we go with the ret-conning that HYDRA aren't properly actually Nazis any more, which I still hate, Magneto is so principled a character that he shouldn't be willingly working alongside anyone who ever colluded with the Nazis. If you can't grasp that, you have no business writing for that character.

Let's not whitewash Magneto here. He believes in mutant supremacy. That's the reason he's an extremist. He is just as prejudiced as the prejudice he sees in the world and uses his power and position to push that agenda. He's a hypocrite, and that and his methods are what makes him the villain more often than not.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Benji

[=BK=]

I don't think Magneto has been a  supremacist for quite a long time. He's grown out of that particular bit of his old ideology. His whole deal with the Inhumans currently doesn't have any kind of Supremacist undertones, it's just that their creation is killing mutants and he's so paranoid about other people's motivations that he believes they don't care and will actively spread it at some point. Before this I haven't seen him really rag on humanity as a whole since early 2000's X-Men.

 

Side note: I'd have really liked to see Magneto meet Ultimate Magneto. I think 616 Magneto would eventually kill him for being a monster.

[JasonM]

Ultimate Magneto (just as every other (early) Ultimate character in my eyes) is just a poorly written turbo edgelord, and in UM's case is a nazi in all but name only. I tried getting through all that a few years ago, and I just gave up after the first arc. 

I mean this is the same comic book continuity that wrote his two kids as having an incestuous relation with each other. Had Thor as some weird overbearing hippy. Giant-man is a wifebeater, and Widow/Hawkeye are sociopaths who murder an entire office building of people to complete their mission (it's never fully implied everyone inside was a shapeshifter.)

Also, anything Orson Scott Card touched was utter shite and a half.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Jasonmufc

[=BK=]

It's been a bit since I read them but I recall liking or enjoying all the Ultimate characters besides Hawkeye. I'm still bugged that Marvel killed that universe and only saved Miles and Wolverine Jr. I miss Ultimate Spider-Woman and Kitty Pryde.

[Benji]

On 21/05/2017 at 10:16, Jasonmufc said:

Ultimate Magneto (just as every other (early) Ultimate character in my eyes) is just a poorly written turbo edgelord, and in UM's case is a nazi in all but name only. I tried getting through all that a few years ago, and I just gave up after the first arc. 

I mean this is the same comic book continuity that wrote his two kids as having an incestuous relation with each other. Had Thor as some weird overbearing hippy. Giant-man is a wifebeater, and Widow/Hawkeye are sociopaths who murder an entire office building of people to complete their mission (it's never fully implied everyone inside was a shapeshifter.)

Also, anything Orson Scott Card touched was utter shite and a half.

God, Ultimate X-Men was just the absolute dog worst. In amongst all the other shit, they killed off freaking Gambit after one appearance. So lame.

[theshadow]

Loved Next Wave: Agents of HATE thanks for the recommendation.

[=BK=]

You know what would be a kinda neat back story to play with for a new teenage Marvel hero? Have them be a older sibling of one of the kids killed in the explosion that kicked everything off in the first Civil War. Also, have them be the first new mutant in a long time. They could be a nice story piece in any superhero conflict and something important in the shit with the mutants and Inhumans.

[=BK=]

Oh, question. Is there anything between Agent Venom and Venom:Space Knight?

[=BK=]

Just finished CWII and now I have huge confusion again on Hydra Cap.

Spoiler

When he speaks to Tony's comatose body he talks about regular old pro-USA Cap as if he were a different person that existed but isn't the concept of the whole thingthat reality was changed so he was always this way?

 

Also on the Magneto front. There's a panel that shows that Cap wants Mutants and Inhumans in concentration camps so fuck that noise.

 

[Skummy]

On ‎19‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 10:06, Benji said:

My bet is they stood up and said it, but got shot down because they knew it would get people's attention and people would read out of intrigue, even if it's just to piss on it. Marvel is basically just basically attempting every quick "shock your values" tactic they can lately. It's shit and lazy.

Let's not whitewash Magneto here. He believes in mutant supremacy. That's the reason he's an extremist. He is just as prejudiced as the prejudice he sees in the world and uses his power and position to push that agenda. He's a hypocrite, and that and his methods are what makes him the villain more often than not.

Oh, absolutely - I didn't mean to suggest that Magneto wasn't a hypocrite. It's that hypocrisy, more often than not, that makes him a villain - he thinks that mankind's prejudice makes them unfit to rule and, as he's a victim of that prejudice, it's difficult to argue that point. But the megalomania and extremism comes when he thinks that he should be trusted to rule, and that he inherently knows what's best. He's been victim to the worst of man's flaws, and thinks they can't be forgiven, and that it's time that the oppressed - mutants - overthrow the oppressor. So it becomes a story of how quickly rebellion can turn right back into tyranny, of hypocrisy, of victimhood, and so much else, and becomes richer still when contrasted with Xavier.

When it comes to comic book characters being lauded as well-written and nuanced, I always think back to Alan Moore's line - "they weren't perfect, they had defects. You might be the God of Thunder, but you've got a gammy knee. For years I thought having a gammy knee counted as character development" - but Magneto is one of the few that can't be summed up in a neat one-liner, and genuinely does have nuance that, to a good writer, lends itself to all kinds of compelling stories. To a bad writer, he's just another comic book baddy.

[The Lusophone]

Treated myself to a Marvel Unlimited subscription. Is there much difference between what's coming out in the UK right now and what'll be on there?

[Benji]

1 minute ago, Mad Jack said:

Treated myself to a Marvel Unlimited subscription. Is there much difference between what's coming out in the UK right now and what'll be on there?

IIRC there's a delay of about 6 months from paper release to Unlimited. That's about it.

[=BK=]

I thought it was a whole year behind current physical releases.

[Benji]

Usually six months. Sometimes a little delay beyond that but should be six months.