Guest Mr. Potato Head Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 I suspect a good, realistic UFC game would be nearly impossible to make. Hopefully I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Visually it looks spectacular, but MMA hasn't really translated well into video games. The Pride games got close, so there is hope though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ananas Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Basically, UFC is an utter failure when it comes to challenging this guy. Yushin Okami, yes. Michael Bisping, yes. Demian Maia, yes. Dan Henderson or Rich Franklin at 205? Yes. Chuck Liddell? The Ice Man? The guy who's lost 3 of his last 4 fights and hasn't held a title in a year and a half? The guy whose wide stance and low hands are perfect for a Muay Thai expert for Anderson Silva, who decimated Chris Leben, who uses a similar style? Yeah right... I'm sure the idea is that the perennially low-drawing Anderson Silva can expand his fanbase amongst the casuals with a win over Chuck. Nobody who knows anything about MMA doubts Silva can fight. The point is to expand that awareness to the general public like they did with GSP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Kiniski Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Didn't Silva bring in really impressive numbers earlier this year that pretty much swayed away from him being a "low draw"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 How can you really call UFC an utter failure when it comes to challenging Silva? What other middleweights are out there that they could bring in for him to face? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mancuerda Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 How can you really call UFC an utter failure when it comes to challenging Silva? What other middleweights are out there that they could bring in for him to face? Yushin Okami had a hand injury, so Patrick Cote stepped up to fight him. Cote got injured. Okami is well. What's Okami doing December 27th? He's fighting Dean Lister in a PRELIMINARY BOUT! He should be fighting Anderson Silva in January. Michael Bisping is virtually unstoppable in UFC. After dropping down to 185 following his loss to Rashad Evans, Bisping has wins over Chris Leben, Jason Day, and Charles McCarthy, the latter two by knockout, and Leben by picking him apart. Bisping has better boxing skills than anyone Silva has fought and would pose a threat in the striking department, unlike Chuck Liddell, who's loose, looping style will leave him open just like Leben was against Silva. Demian Maia is undefeated and has been on a tear since entering the UFC, with wins over Nate Quarry, Ed Herman, Jason MacDonald, and Ryan Jensen, all by submission. He is one of few people who could match Anderson Silva's jiujitsu skills and would pose a real threat. There are others who aren't in the UFC, like Paulo Filho (though he seems to have some serious personal issues and just had a loss that made him look like a huge retard), Robbie Lawler (who was Middleweight Champion in EliteXC), Frank Trigg (for a recognizable name he could beat who would pose a real threat and is a Middleweight), Thales Leites (who has only one loss in UFC and is 14-1 and is a fellow Brazilian with wins over Nate Marquardt and Drew McFedries), Gegard Mousasi (Undefeated in Dream and a serious threat), and other Light Heavyweight prospects like young Luis Arthur Cane (fellow Brazilian who's 9-1 with his only loss coming by DQ against James Irvin... he should've fought him again) and of course Rich Franklin or Dan Henderson at 205 would present a real challenge, though it'd be rather pointless, as I think they'd rather take his belt than a non-title win at 205... If none of those do anything for you, after GSP beats BJ Penn and fights Thiago Alves, have GSP go up to 185 and beat Anderson Silva. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 None of those names you mentioned there pose any real threat to Anderson Silva outside of the "puncher's chance" theory. The only time the UFC should purposely schedule for someone to face Silva is if they think that person has a legitimate shot of defeating him... and none of those names have a legitimate shot. Georges St. Pierre is probably the most likely to have a chance, but at the same time, I've never heard any rumblings of GSP wanting to fight outside of 170. When there are no legit challengers, just go about booking as normal, and when Silva's ready for a fight, pick the top 185 contender and make the fight. Also... Bisping and Maia are hot right now, but they're nowhere near ready for someone of Anderson's calibre. Put them in against the Spider and he will eat them alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mancuerda Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) None of those names you mentioned there pose any real threat to Anderson Silva outside of the "puncher's chance" theory. The only time the UFC should purposely schedule for someone to face Silva is if they think that person has a legitimate shot of defeating him... and none of those names have a legitimate shot. Georges St. Pierre is probably the most likely to have a chance, but at the same time, I've never heard any rumblings of GSP wanting to fight outside of 170. When there are no legit challengers, just go about booking as normal, and when Silva's ready for a fight, pick the top 185 contender and make the fight. Also... Bisping and Maia are hot right now, but they're nowhere near ready for someone of Anderson's calibre. Put them in against the Spider and he will eat them alive. You're crazy if you don't think Bisping, Maia or Lawler "stand a chance." I see that UFC hype machine has brainwashed you into thinking Anderson Silva is indestructible. EAT THEM ALIVE LOLOLOL EDIT: Sorry for the "mark" comment. It's just that this double standard pisses me off to no end. Fedor beats the #2 ranked heavyweight in the world (Nog) twice, beats Mirko Cro Cop when he was still killing people (and before he lost all his confidence via earth shattering kick from Gonzaga), beat Tim Sylvia in 36 seconds (When Sylvia was a top 5 heavyweight), and he gets no credibility. People say he still has something to prove. Meanwhile, UFC won't put anybody who has a real shot up against Anderson Silva, forcing them to wait forever before they get a shot... Okami being the most prevalent case. It's just, as soon as Silva beat Dan Henderson (after Hendo won the first round and walked into some strikes in the second to set up a choke), they quit giving him legitimate competition. Don't tell me there aren't legitimate competitors out there. I just gave you a whole damn list. Silva beat Franklin to win the belt, then beat him to retain. He beat Hendo. That's two big name title defenses. Outside of that, not much... Edited November 21, 2008 by Master Shakespeare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 The UFC hype machine hasn't brainwashed me at all. I thought Dan Henderson would pose a very legitimate threat to Anderson Silva, and he did a damn fine job, but still lost in convincing fashion. I've seen most of Silva's fights, from his early days in PRIDE up to now, and the evolution of Silva's all-around MMA game is astounding. You put Bisping in there, and Silva will make him look like a fool by tapping him out. You put Maia in there, and Silva has the Jiu-Jitsu to defend against submissions, and would likely knock him out. You put Lawler in there, and it'll be a slugfest, but come on... Robbie Lawler is better overall than James Irvin is, but the game plan would be the same, and the outcome probably would too. They need to find a fighter who can train to become as good in every aspect of the game as Silva is. You put any of these guys in there, and of course there's the puncher's chance theory, of maybe Lawler or Bisping could knock him out... maybe Maia could submit him... but the smart money is that Silva defends against those things because he can, and utilizes another discipline to finish the fight. No one is well rounded enough to be considered a legitimate threat right now. Yushin Okami is close, and I think a rematch with Hendo would be a good idea, with Henderson being more aware this time around. Is Anderson Silva the best in the world at any one discipline? No... but he is the most well rounded fighter in the sport, and to say otherwise is in poor judgment. I'm not saying Silva will just run through anybody they put in his way... but I am saying that there is no one in the world right now at 185 that I would stand behind and say "This man WILL beat Anderson Silva." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 They're going to build Bisping to gigantic levels and then have a massive payout in London for Bisping/Silva. Thats not a matter of them not challenging Anderson, its a matter of milking that potential fight for as much as its worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mancuerda Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) How did Travis Lutter, Patrick Cote, or Nate Marquardt earn a title shot against Silva? They were easy opponents compared to Bisping, Maia, and Lawler... And there wasn't any point to the James Irvin fight other than adding to the hype machine. They wanted to try to take buy rates away from Affliction's first PPV by running a free event on Spike TV the same night. They chose a guy who isn't even near a top 10 light heavyweight to give Silva an easy opponent. They aren't testing him at all. Part of my outrage is the overhype, but part of it is that he's not being challenged, and the dude is going to retire before we get to actually find out how great (or overrated) he is. If he doesn't get challenged now, we'll never find out. UFC needs to quit wasting time and dropping the ball, and they need to start having him defend that belt like Tito Ortiz did when he was Light Heavyweight Champion, or like Matt Hughes did when he was Welterweight Champion... Is Anderson Silva the best in the world at any one discipline? No... but he is the most well rounded fighter in the sport, and to say otherwise is in poor judgment. Fedor is a better well rounded fighter. He can knock you out, win by submission, and has amazing defense against every discipline... I'm sorry for not giving you credit before, but I just disagree. I think Fedor is the better fighter. I'm going to quote what a friend of mine on another forum said, which I think sums it up: Anyways, there's ALWAYS gonna be competition that hasn't yet been faced...but to say Fedor, who's got a record of 28-1 (his only loss due to an illegal elbow strike that caused a cut in like 15 seconds, and was ruled a loss instead of a no contest because it was a one night tournament where someone had to move on to the next round...then in the rematch completely annihilated the dude) still has more to prove to anyone is preposterous. The things other fighters say about him alone should prove that point. Google it. Right now, as it stands in the sport, NO ONE has dominated his weight class like Fedor has. Anderson Silva can still make up for those 2 embarassing losses in PRIDE if he continues his streak, so he may take that title eventually, but right now that description belongs to Fedor. ... Now let's look at Fedor's resume (again, not counting Rings fights, and these are all wins): Semmy Schilt, Heath Herring, Mark Coleman 2x, Kevin Randleman, NOGUEIRA 2X, Cro Cop, Mark Hunt, Matt Lindland, Tim Sylvia. Sprinkle in 7 other victories at HW, and you have Fedor's record minus Rings fights. ... And, if they were to fight, Fedor would rip off Anderson's arm and take it back to Russia as a trophy to put up over his fire place. He goes on to provide a list of quotes from fighters who talk about Fedor: "Fedor is the best pound for pound fighter in the world" -Randy Couture "Fedor is the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world aside from BJ Penn, those 2 are the best fighters in the world." -Rampage Jackson "NOBODY wants to fight Fedor" -Wanderlei Silva "Our great champion, he is the BEST in the world." -Josh Barnett "Fedor has no weakness! I have seen so many fights, and even the best fighters in the world have a flaw in their game but I have yet to find one in Fedor Emelianenko." – Bas Rutten "Probably the best ever lived….he’s a living legend right now and I don’t think there’s a man on this planet who can beat him; the man is unreal. Pound for pound the best in the world –Diego Sanchez, hooterandgreenway radio show "Fedor is my favorite" -BJ Penn, NWFS 7/9/06 "Fedor is just too dominant, too good at punching people in the face. The way he punches people man he's trying to kill people, with both hands. He's in a whole different class by himself." -Brandon Vera "He is the BEST" -Mark Coleman, former UFC HW Champion and Pride GP Champion "...and obviously Fedor" -Dana White, UFC President on who the best fighter is (EDIT: this happened of course when he still thought he was going to sign Fedor) "It's between Fedor and my wife" -Gary Shaw, Elite XC President on who the best fighter is "The best in the world, no doubt" -Phil Baroni "Look, I’ve fought many people from around the world, so I’ve seen many strong fighters. But like him, never" -Renato "Babalu" Sobral "Fedor would be absolutely great in K-1" -Ernesto Hoost, 4-time K-1 World Champion "Fedor is the most incredible fighter you'll ever see" -Frank Trigg "Fedor is pound-for-pound best in the world" -Shamada (Pride referee) "The best fighter to climb into ANY arena is Emelianenko Fedor. He is in his own league and you can't compare nobody." -Kevin randleman, former UFC HW Champion "He is the best and undefeated... His striking game and his ground game is the best, so that's why he is the best... He is the sh*t" -Mark Hunt, K-1 World Champion "I know I'm one of the best in the world, and I was amazed at him. I really don't think that he's human." - Tim Sylvia EDIT: And just to finish what I was saying about Anderson Silva fighting competition. When Matt Hughes was Welterweight Champion (during his two reigns), he fought Carlos Newton, Georges St. Pierre, Frank Trigg, Joe Riggs, Royce Gracie, BJ Penn, Sean Sherk... When Tito Ortiz was Light Heavyweight Champion (during his prolific reign), he fought Wanderlei Silva, Evan Tanner, Ken Shamrock, Randy Couture... When Chuck Liddell was Light Heavyweight Champion, he fought Randy Couture, Renato Sobral, Tito Ortiz, Jeremy Horn, Quinton Jackson... They had way stiffer competition than Silva has had during his Middleweight Title reign. EDIT EDIT: I'm going to sleep for now, Gabe. Hopefully I didn't come across as too condescending. I was just astonished that you and others seem to believe this hype that Silva is, without any doubt, the best pound for pound fighter in the world, when you've got Fedor, GSP, and BJ Penn... Edited November 21, 2008 by Master Shakespeare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 I don't really dig the Pound for Pound thing. If a guy is never going to be able to even fight another guy, they shouldn't be compared at all. "most well rounded in the world" should then be amended with "at 185." added at the end of it. I agree that he's had some defenses that weren't main event title fights by any means... but at the same time, when you're the matchmaker and you're looking at things... and you think, okay... 185, who could possibly beat Silva on paper? Well, no one that's worth risking at this point... so we'll put him in with Travis Lutter, maybe. Silva facing a glorified can is much better than the potential consequences of having him destroy a guy who could be a star for years to come, but isn't quite at the top of his game yet. Guys all react to a big loss like that differently. Some bounce back better than ever, and others are never the same again and get added to the list of "Could Have Been's." Maia and Bisping will be around for awhile, but they're not where they need to be for a shot against Silva right now. Putting them in there could be devastating to the UFC, as they could potentially lose two future stars. The recent news about Silva is that he's not retiring anytime soon. I've read that he has upwards of 10 fights left in him, five on his current contract. There's plenty of time to build these guys and let them grow... no need to rush into something just because no one's threatening to take his crown from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mancuerda Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) I know I said I'm done, but just one last thing... The recent news about Silva is that he's not retiring anytime soon. I've read that he has upwards of 10 fights left in him, five on his current contract. There's plenty of time to build these guys and let them grow... no need to rush into something just because no one's threatening to take his crown from him. But the guy looked rather complacent in his fight against Patrick Cote, pretty laid back. He won the rounds, but didn't put in that trademark Silva effort. I think he's going to get rocked if he fights Bisping. Look at Urijah Faber at 145. Nobody thought he'd be beaten. They couldn't think of a soul to challenge him. They took a gamble on Mike Brown - and I admit that Bisping or Maia at this point would be a gamble - and Brown knocked Faber out and made him look like a ragdoll. Lawler, Maia, and Bisping are getting better and better, so I understand your desire to have them wait. But look at guys like GSP. GSP fought Matt Hughes to see if he could reach that next level. He lost, rebounded by winning several fights, and then beat Hughes in a rematch. More recently, Jon Fitch, another guy who many were wondering about (regarding that "elite class" ability) fought GSP. He lost, and he'll rebound and be better because of it. I don't think Maia or Bisping should be protected. They've got room to improve, but even Randy Couture has said that he is still learning more and more of the game and is improving everytime he trains... Silva is going to get complacent if he's being fed these guys. He needs to stay on the top of his game and continue to fight real challenges. I hope he doesn't go anywhere, though. I actually like Silva, despite my rage over his overrated (in my mind) reputation. Bisping is a better striker than Cote or Irvin, or about anybody in UFC (in terms of boxing, I mean), and could present a very, very difficult opponent. Silva would be a favorite against anybody at this stage. I just think he or Maia should get a crack at him... I guess having Bisping fight Maia for contendership wouldn't be the worst thing. Edited November 21, 2008 by Master Shakespeare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxx Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Anyone think Rich Franklin deserves another shot at Anderson if he beats Dan Henderson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quom Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) Lutter won the shot on TUF. Serra used the same opportunity to win the belt and I'm sure that pre-fight, more people would have favoured Lutter to beat Silva than people who rated Serra a realistic chance against GSP. I don't Maxx. Silva has him covered. Only time I'd be interested would be at LHW. But the only real difference would be that neither of them would have to cut so it would probably be the exact same fight as at MW. Edited November 21, 2008 by QuomQuat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriel Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Lutter won the shot on TUF. Serra used the same opportunity to win the belt and I'm sure that pre-fight more people would have favoured Lutter to beat Silva than people who rated Serra a realistic chance against GSP. Well, you know... Travis Lutter has those relaxed submissions that you pretty much have to put yourself in to lose the fight. Matt Serra just looked like a joke compared to GSP. I mean, I still don't think the guy is "that good" of a fighter, but he did beat St. Pierre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAceI Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 If we're going to quote people like has been done, shall we not just quote Fedor Emelianenko who himself claims he doesn't see himself as the top pound-for-pound fighter? http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=ki-f...o&type=lgns Surely if we're placing stock into fighters quotes now then we may as well have that as the trump card to the 101 quotes already and say "well if Fedor doesn't think he's number one, then surely he isn't number one"? Not that I'm placing any stock of my own into what fighters are saying on a whim to look a particular way to the media. And they aren't going to throw Bisping into a fight with Silva with no rhyme or reason anyways. It's just as much a money making business as it is about seeing who the best fighter is, perhaps moreso the money making business so it's obvious with one of the better exports in the UFC outside of the typical Brazilian/Japan ones, a fighter they can really use to open up a new market they're going to, as said, build him up and then throw him at Silva in a big blowout fight most likely in London. Even the typical fans who see the London matches as poor cards just to work a new market will want to see that match, but at the end of the day, as a Brit and a Bisping fan I know myself that when Silva takes him to the mat, and he would do that at some stage, then Bisping can pretty much kiss his hopes good bye. Maia, a phenomenal submission expert - possibly the best in the world right now, but Silva has the ability to stand there and punch him out should he want to. I think it's been said best when it was claimed he's not the best at any one discipline but he's just so well rounded that it's phenomenal. I'm not going to enter the whole whose P4P the best fighter because honestly, I don't know, although it's definitely one of them two. But I don't throw a lot of weight into using Mark Coleman, Tim Sylvia or possibly even a Matt Lindland as examples as to why Fedor is as good as he is, especially when they're 2006, 2008 and 2007 matches as well. A while back, yes, but not now. And Sylvia is massively overrated and I can't say the logic of "Fedor knocking him out and Couture going the distance with him" is really fair logic as Couture gives up about 40lbs to Tim, similar to the differential between him and Brock the other week. In sum, I can't say for definite who I think is better P4P between Silva and Fedor, I think Silva has the potential because his Middleweight division worldwide is much stronger right now than the Heavyweight division is so he has more scope for better wins. But a word of warning, you aren't going to persuade MMA fans on EWB people throwing Sylvia or Coleman as recent victims for Emelianenko meaning he is better. I don't know if that logic would even work on sherdog to be fair. I know you're trying to put your point across with the best intentions, but I figure that a lot of people reading this debate aren't really being won over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZJ Penn Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 I agree with Ace on the quotes, especially when off the top of my head, over half of them were in Pride with Fedor or affiliated with the company in some way or another. To throw in my 2 cents on the P4P argument it's obviously something that's likely to never be definitive. However, as good as Fedor is, I can't say he's the best until he gets to the UFC. That's the biggest stage, that's where a lot of the best fighters are and it's where all the pressure is. How many fighters have had great backgrounds then upon entering the Octagon completely lost it? Wanderlei Silva and Cro Cop are two off the top of my head and they are/were elite fighters at the time. So yeah, to really say he's above Anderson Silva, Fedor needs to come to the UFC and fight Lesnar, fight Couture, fight Nogueira (in the Octagon, longer time limit presuming it's a title fight, in front of a bigger audience, who knows?). That to me is why Couture is the greatest of all time, which is a different argument altogether. But I imagine someone with a short-sighted look on how records are everything will dispute that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mancuerda Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) Why should Fedor have to go to the Octagon? Most other MMA promotions used the regular ring... And Cro Cop did fine in UFC before Gonzaga got a lucky head kick that knocked him out, and since then he's been pretty rattled. They threw guys like Dan Henderson and Wanderlei Silva up against top level talent right away, so of course there was a chance they could lose a couple fights in a row. I mean, Henderson was in two title unification fights in a row. He lost a back and forth decision victory to Jackson, and then I already talked about the fight against Silva to death. As for Wandy, I expect him to beat Jackson again on December 27th. Anyway, I'm just going to respectfully disagree and not bother arguing with you anymore. Think whatever you want regarding who the best pound for pound fighter is. I still don't think the arguments you've been using, regarding Fedor not fighting legitimate competition or his fights being too long ago, are too valid... EDIT: As far as Couture being the greatest of all time, I would disagree. He's definitely one of the greatest. My disagreement doesn't have much to do with his record, though. He only fights top level competition. I believe 13 of his last 14 fights were all for titles. EDIT: Ew, even Sherdog is calling Anderson Silva the best pound for pound fighter... Edited November 21, 2008 by Master Shakespeare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzy Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Here's how UFC 91 ranks in UFC history: 1. UFC 66 (Liddell vs. Ortiz II), December 2006: $5,397,300 gate (12,191 attendance) 2. UFC 83 (St. Pierre vs. Serra II), April 2008: $5,100,000 (21,390 attendance)* 3. UFC 79 (St. Pierre vs. Hughes), December 2007: $4,994,050 (9,704 attendance) 4. UFC 91 (Couture vs. Lesnar), November 2008: $4,815,675 (13,224 attendance) 5. UFC 71 (Liddell vs. Jackson), May 2007: $4,304,740 (13,224 attendance) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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