(Spoilers) The thread where CALIFORNIA LOOOOVE~!

[Gabriel]

While the Leafs are terrible, and things are only going to get worse...at least we aren't the Flames.

The Flames have been shutout in 5 of their last 7 games.....They have scored 5 goals in the last 2 weeks....Tavares & Skinner each have 7

Burkie or the new GM are going to be tearing the team apart by the deadline. We have good pieces, but not enough of them, and we don't have the complimentary pieces to complete the team. It's going to be an interesting two months here, because I know Burke doesn't like making deals from a position of weakness, but he has to hate some of the pieces that are on this team right now.

Over/Under, I'm thinking at least four NHL players are gone by the deadline.

[Ruki]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXrlJRDfhf4

This is how it is in Leaf Land.

(Bring back Burke!)

[NobBe Nobbs]

Also, with regards to "anyone will do". No it won't. It's become CLEAR that not just anyone will do, as you guys (representing the Toronto fanbase collective) ran one of the winningest coaches of all time out of town. And now you're running a Stanley Cup winner out of town. If these two guys can't hack it, Wayne Gretzky can't cut it. And Joe Q. Janitor sure as shit can't cut it. You can't fire the coach because you're cranky and you want to throw the toys out of the pram. You need to have a solution, with a reason why it will work. Not a reason why the old one didn't work (ie New Coach will work because he's not Carlyle!). I don't think Carlyle is the right coach for Toronto, but frankly given that the Leafs let Dallas Eakins go (who IS a good coach, it's just that the Oilers are bad) there isn't a better alternative. You may be unhappy with the 7th-10th spot that Carlyle will get you, but firing Carlyle now won't make that better.

This is where we differ and while I respect your opinion, you really need to be following the Leafs in-depth to understand this.

Carlyle is the reason we no longer have Mikhail Grabovski and he is the reason we no longer have Clarke MacArthur. That's damage enough - we lost a 50-60 point centre and a 20-goal, 50-60 point winger for no assets at all because Carlyle didn't think they fit. The one thing we did get back for them was cap space, and that was pissed away on David Clarkson, a player whose signing reeks of Carlyle.

From the sounds of it, Nazem Kadri and Jake Gardiner are being shopped around and, apparently, that's down to Carlyle as well. Nazem fucking Kadri and Jake fucking Gardiner are young and have stupid amounts of potential, but because they apparently don't jibe with what Carlyle wants, they could be out as well.

Carlyle plays Colton Orr and Frazer MacLaren, two men who are bad, bad hockey players and not even much good at their alleged role in the roster. To make that happen, he scratches Peter Holland, a guy with more upside than Orr and McLaren have literally ever had. He plays Mark Fraser and scratches Morgan Rielly for no good reason. He appears to be in the process of ensuring Nikolai Kulemin follows Grabovski and MacArthur out of the door, and that makes me incredibly sad because I remember how fucking good the three of them were together. You know why? Because it was only THREE FUCKING YEARS AGO.

I don't want to make it sound like PPP is some kind of deified place for Maple Leaf fans, because there is certainly an element of groupthink and petty arguments there, but I do think you should read a few of the comment threads before commenting on Carlyle, particularly if they come after losses but even if they come after victories. The criticism of Carlyle is not solely motivated by emotions, it's backed up by fact, a lot of fact and more and more fact every single game - hell, every single day that passes. Start here and keep reading. If you want something better-argued about why Carlyle is awful, ask in one of those threads and you'll get your answer.

I didn't start this meaning to get so worked up and please don't think I'm attacking you for it. I'm just so frustrated and so fucking angry at how badly this team is being run. I said in that thread I linked that I know I couldn't do Carlyle's job, but every bad decision that comes, every day Carlyle is allowed to keep Orr and MacLaren in the lineup despite the obvious fact that they CANNOT DO THEIR FUCKING JOBS, I get a little more sure I could do Nonis'.

Apparently, on New Year's, I compared following the Leafs to herpes (because once they're in your system you can't get them out) but, possibly more accurately, to an abusive relationship. They treat me (as a proxy for fans worldwide) so badly and yet I can't leave, because I still love them. Sometimes I wish I could stop following them, but I can't.

...well, that went to an interesting place.

[Ruki]

Be, we need to create a safe haven for Leaf fans. Maybe have big screen TV's showing good teams like Chicago, LA, or Canada.

[NobBe Nobbs]

What we need is Randy to be visited by the Ghost of Maple Leafs Past (Wendel Clark), Present (Phil Kessel) and Future (unnamed baby girl Phaneuf-Sundin, born in 2057 who becomes the first female player to lift the Stanley Cup for the Leafs, with her proud grandparents Dion and Mats in attendance) and decide he needs to take a quick, neverending holiday from hockey.

Or, failing that, a good riot.

[Pizza]

I don't want to make it sound like PPP is some kind of deified place for Maple Leaf fans, because there is certainly an element of groupthink and petty arguments there, but I do think you should read a few of the comment threads before commenting on Carlyle, particularly if they come after losses but even if they come after victories. The criticism of Carlyle is not solely motivated by emotions, it's backed up by fact, a lot of fact and more and more fact every single game - hell, every single day that passes. Start here and keep reading. If you want something better-argued about why Carlyle is awful, ask in one of those threads and you'll get your answer.

One of my least favourite things about being a Leafs fan is how reactionary Leafs fans are. The people who want to plan the parade after every win and burn it down after a loss aren't an exaggeration, that's what a lot of fans here are like. But the reaction is right this time. He's lost the team, he's selling skill players down the river for an antiquated notion of the grinding style of hockey that he thinks is the right way to play, and we've got no chance at a playoff spot if things continue the way they're going.

I'm actually looking forward to tonights game. Anyone who watched a Montreal Toronto game during Grabovski's tenure knows he that unlike basketballs, he holds grudges. If he lights us up, the chances of Carlyle being gone in January are a lot more realistic.

[NobBe Nobbs]

I don't want to make it sound like PPP is some kind of deified place for Maple Leaf fans, because there is certainly an element of groupthink and petty arguments there, but I do think you should read a few of the comment threads before commenting on Carlyle, particularly if they come after losses but even if they come after victories. The criticism of Carlyle is not solely motivated by emotions, it's backed up by fact, a lot of fact and more and more fact every single game - hell, every single day that passes. Start here and keep reading. If you want something better-argued about why Carlyle is awful, ask in one of those threads and you'll get your answer.

One of my least favourite things about being a Leafs fan is how reactionary Leafs fans are. The people who want to plan the parade after every win and burn it down after a loss aren't an exaggeration, that's what a lot of fans here are like. But the reaction is right this time. He's lost the team, he's selling skill players down the river for an antiquated notion of the grinding style of hockey that he thinks is the right way to play, and we've got no chance at a playoff spot if things continue the way they're going.

That's why I like the PPP community. They're negative, yes, but that's because the team has given us so much to be negative about, and the general temperament is not nearly as hair-trigger as I understand most of Toronto is with respect to the Leafs.

[TGWL]

Also, with regards to "anyone will do". No it won't. It's become CLEAR that not just anyone will do, as you guys (representing the Toronto fanbase collective) ran one of the winningest coaches of all time out of town. And now you're running a Stanley Cup winner out of town. If these two guys can't hack it, Wayne Gretzky can't cut it. And Joe Q. Janitor sure as shit can't cut it. You can't fire the coach because you're cranky and you want to throw the toys out of the pram. You need to have a solution, with a reason why it will work. Not a reason why the old one didn't work (ie New Coach will work because he's not Carlyle!). I don't think Carlyle is the right coach for Toronto, but frankly given that the Leafs let Dallas Eakins go (who IS a good coach, it's just that the Oilers are bad) there isn't a better alternative. You may be unhappy with the 7th-10th spot that Carlyle will get you, but firing Carlyle now won't make that better.

This is where we differ and while I respect your opinion, you really need to be following the Leafs in-depth to understand this.

Carlyle is the reason we no longer have Mikhail Grabovski and he is the reason we no longer have Clarke MacArthur. That's damage enough - we lost a 50-60 point centre and a 20-goal, 50-60 point winger for no assets at all because Carlyle didn't think they fit. The one thing we did get back for them was cap space, and that was pissed away on David Clarkson, a player whose signing reeks of Carlyle.

From the sounds of it, Nazem Kadri and Jake Gardiner are being shopped around and, apparently, that's down to Carlyle as well. Nazem fucking Kadri and Jake fucking Gardiner are young and have stupid amounts of potential, but because they apparently don't jibe with what Carlyle wants, they could be out as well.

Carlyle plays Colton Orr and Frazer MacLaren, two men who are bad, bad hockey players and not even much good at their alleged role in the roster. To make that happen, he scratches Peter Holland, a guy with more upside than Orr and McLaren have literally ever had. He plays Mark Fraser and scratches Morgan Rielly for no good reason. He appears to be in the process of ensuring Nikolai Kulemin follows Grabovski and MacArthur out of the door, and that makes me incredibly sad because I remember how fucking good the three of them were together. You know why? Because it was only THREE FUCKING YEARS AGO.

I don't want to make it sound like PPP is some kind of deified place for Maple Leaf fans, because there is certainly an element of groupthink and petty arguments there, but I do think you should read a few of the comment threads before commenting on Carlyle, particularly if they come after losses but even if they come after victories. The criticism of Carlyle is not solely motivated by emotions, it's backed up by fact, a lot of fact and more and more fact every single game - hell, every single day that passes. Start here and keep reading. If you want something better-argued about why Carlyle is awful, ask in one of those threads and you'll get your answer.

I didn't start this meaning to get so worked up and please don't think I'm attacking you for it. I'm just so frustrated and so fucking angry at how badly this team is being run. I said in that thread I linked that I know I couldn't do Carlyle's job, but every bad decision that comes, every day Carlyle is allowed to keep Orr and MacLaren in the lineup despite the obvious fact that they CANNOT DO THEIR FUCKING JOBS, I get a little more sure I could do Nonis'.

Apparently, on New Year's, I compared following the Leafs to herpes (because once they're in your system you can't get them out) but, possibly more accurately, to an abusive relationship. They treat me (as a proxy for fans worldwide) so badly and yet I can't leave, because I still love them. Sometimes I wish I could stop following them, but I can't.

...well, that went to an interesting place.

The majority of leaf fans criticized MacArthur for being soft, and being a product of the leaf players around him making him look like a star. Now he's gone and it's Carlye fault he's actually producing better than on the leafs? MacLaren needs to be send back to playing a role he can, which is limted 4th line minutes where he can be effective and play a forecheck game. Grabo wasn't producing and it was basically coming down to keep him either him or Bozo. Again, most people were not that upset with him leaving.

However, I agree that Caryle has been making dumb decisions. They had a hot start, but if they don't fix the problem it's going to be a tough journey to make playoffs.

"Nazem fucking Kadri" was your most invisible player during the winter classics. He's got talent, but he's too inconstant and this isn't the first time he's had a problem with a coach. I think they realize he's unlikely to be anything more than a #2C at best.

[Plubby]

Every time a different leafs fan comes in here to debate this point, I really feel like I write stuff like

Also, with regards to "anyone will do". No it won't. It's become CLEAR that not just anyone will do, as you guys (representing the Toronto fanbase collective) ran one of the winningest coaches of all time out of town. And now you're running a Stanley Cup winner out of town. If these two guys can't hack it, Wayne Gretzky can't cut it. And Joe Q. Janitor sure as shit can't cut it. You can't fire the coach because you're cranky and you want to throw the toys out of the pram. You need to have a solution, with a reason why it will work. Not a reason why the old one didn't work (ie New Coach will work because he's not Carlyle!). I don't think Carlyle is the right coach for Toronto, but frankly given that the Leafs let Dallas Eakins go (who IS a good coach, it's just that the Oilers are bad) there isn't a better alternative. You may be unhappy with the 7th-10th spot that Carlyle will get you, but firing Carlyle now won't make that better.

While this is not Pulitzer-level writing by any stretch of the imagination, in any alternate reality or this one, I really feel like it deserves the bare minimum respect to have actually been read, because i'm utterly convinced that at least half of you have seen the post and read it as

CARLYLE'S GREAT! CARLYLE'S GREAT! CARLYLE'S GREAT! CARLYLE'S GREAT! CARLYLE'S GREAT! CARLYLE'S GREAT! CARLYLE'S GREAT! CARLYLE'S GREAT!

Which is not what I wrote. I go to painstaking lengths to make sure that what I write is what I meant to say. I don't always get that right, but it drives me mental to no end to go to these efforts and then have the opinion that others want me to have (ie the easy to defeat one) projected onto me.

To Be specifically: I'll ask you the same question I asked the three other Leafs fans: Who is the solution? In your mind?

[SeanDMan]

Fire Wilson!

[Toe]

I am not sure who is available at the moment, but I say we program a computer with an A.I. of Roger Nielsen.

[Toe]

Really though, why not take a page from the Colorado play book and give Dougie a shot? Use the rest of the season as a try out for him, and if the team continues to suck then at least we get a good pick.

[NobBe Nobbs]

Also, with regards to "anyone will do". No it won't. It's become CLEAR that not just anyone will do, as you guys (representing the Toronto fanbase collective) ran one of the winningest coaches of all time out of town. And now you're running a Stanley Cup winner out of town. If these two guys can't hack it, Wayne Gretzky can't cut it. And Joe Q. Janitor sure as shit can't cut it. You can't fire the coach because you're cranky and you want to throw the toys out of the pram. You need to have a solution, with a reason why it will work. Not a reason why the old one didn't work (ie New Coach will work because he's not Carlyle!). I don't think Carlyle is the right coach for Toronto, but frankly given that the Leafs let Dallas Eakins go (who IS a good coach, it's just that the Oilers are bad) there isn't a better alternative. You may be unhappy with the 7th-10th spot that Carlyle will get you, but firing Carlyle now won't make that better.

This is where we differ and while I respect your opinion, you really need to be following the Leafs in-depth to understand this.

Carlyle is the reason we no longer have Mikhail Grabovski and he is the reason we no longer have Clarke MacArthur. That's damage enough - we lost a 50-60 point centre and a 20-goal, 50-60 point winger for no assets at all because Carlyle didn't think they fit. The one thing we did get back for them was cap space, and that was pissed away on David Clarkson, a player whose signing reeks of Carlyle.

From the sounds of it, Nazem Kadri and Jake Gardiner are being shopped around and, apparently, that's down to Carlyle as well. Nazem fucking Kadri and Jake fucking Gardiner are young and have stupid amounts of potential, but because they apparently don't jibe with what Carlyle wants, they could be out as well.

Carlyle plays Colton Orr and Frazer MacLaren, two men who are bad, bad hockey players and not even much good at their alleged role in the roster. To make that happen, he scratches Peter Holland, a guy with more upside than Orr and McLaren have literally ever had. He plays Mark Fraser and scratches Morgan Rielly for no good reason. He appears to be in the process of ensuring Nikolai Kulemin follows Grabovski and MacArthur out of the door, and that makes me incredibly sad because I remember how fucking good the three of them were together. You know why? Because it was only THREE FUCKING YEARS AGO.

I don't want to make it sound like PPP is some kind of deified place for Maple Leaf fans, because there is certainly an element of groupthink and petty arguments there, but I do think you should read a few of the comment threads before commenting on Carlyle, particularly if they come after losses but even if they come after victories. The criticism of Carlyle is not solely motivated by emotions, it's backed up by fact, a lot of fact and more and more fact every single game - hell, every single day that passes. Start here and keep reading. If you want something better-argued about why Carlyle is awful, ask in one of those threads and you'll get your answer.

I didn't start this meaning to get so worked up and please don't think I'm attacking you for it. I'm just so frustrated and so fucking angry at how badly this team is being run. I said in that thread I linked that I know I couldn't do Carlyle's job, but every bad decision that comes, every day Carlyle is allowed to keep Orr and MacLaren in the lineup despite the obvious fact that they CANNOT DO THEIR FUCKING JOBS, I get a little more sure I could do Nonis'.

Apparently, on New Year's, I compared following the Leafs to herpes (because once they're in your system you can't get them out) but, possibly more accurately, to an abusive relationship. They treat me (as a proxy for fans worldwide) so badly and yet I can't leave, because I still love them. Sometimes I wish I could stop following them, but I can't.

...well, that went to an interesting place.

The majority of leaf fans criticized MacArthur for being soft, and being a product of the leaf players around him making him look like a star. Now he's gone and it's Carlye fault he's actually producing better than on the leafs? MacLaren needs to be send back to playing a role he can, which is limted 4th line minutes where he can be effective and play a forecheck game. Grabo wasn't producing and it was basically coming down to keep him either him or Bozo. Again, most people were not that upset with him leaving.

However, I agree that Caryle has been making dumb decisions. They had a hot start, but if they don't fix the problem it's going to be a tough journey to make playoffs.

"Nazem fucking Kadri" was your most invisible player during the winter classics. He's got talent, but he's too inconstant and this isn't the first time he's had a problem with a coach. I think they realize he's unlikely to be anything more than a #2C at best.

I don't have the quotes available, but MacArthur has been quoted as effectively saying that with the way he was treated by Carlyle, he wasn't even going to consider re-signing. So, yes, it's Carlyle's fault he left. And Grabovski wasn't producing because again, thanks to Carlyle, he was bounced around the roster and eventually crowbarred into a spot on the third line where he was expected to turn into a defensive-minded player, which is so far from the concept of letting your players play to your strengths it's unbelievable. So, yes, Carlyle's fault again. And MacLaren has proved again and again that he isn't even capable of being effective in limited fourth line minutes, but Carlyle continues to play him. And as for Kadri? I think he's got tweener talent, but we won't know because he's not getting the opportunity to prove he's a potential #1 centre. You know who is? Tyler fucking Bozak, who is proving that he is not a #1 centre but still getting the minutes.

Plubby. I read the post. I highlighted the last sentence particularly because I wanted to point out that Carlyle is doing the team a lot of harm with his decisions - MacArthur, Grabovski, Kadri, Rielly and so on - and so we would be better off without off no matter who fills the spot, so long as that person doesn't continue to make Carlyle's errors. Him winning a Stanley Cup is irrelevant and, to be honest, not a huge point in his favour given the personnel he was given. Firing Carlyle will make it better because I firmly believe whoever replaces him - let's say Peter Laviolette, for the sake of argument - simply will not continue to make the fucking imbecilic decisions Carlyle makes, thus making him a far better option.

[Ruki]

And who puts Peter Holland on the 4th line?! The kid was scoring at a pretty good pace, and you only play him 10 minutes a night? Madness.

[caucasianheat]

Grabovski had an unkeepable contract and part of placating Kessel enough to sign means having to take care of his roommate, too. Bozak's been probably the best Toronto forward since he came back five or six games ago anyway and he undeniably compliments that top line. You can see the difference when he's away and when he's not. Kadri had ample opportunity to play with Kessel and VR when Bozak was out hurt - he generated 4 points in 3 weeks. Bozak's been back 6 games and has 7 in that time - "not a number one centre, I just play one on television!"

Carlyle came advertised as a dick. He's a dick. If you can't handle playing for a coach who is not nice, you should quit professional sports. The players he's being hard on need to wake up. Kadri is a soft floater most nights. Gardiner needs some defensive responsibility scared into him.

Games where you surrender 50+ shots and your top lines can't produce a goal don't need to be blamed on fourth line muckers who play 3 minutes. That's passing the buck away from darlings who aren't getting it done.

edit: I wish we could talk about all teams with this kind of vim!

[SeanDMan]

Alright Cauc, the Canucks! Go!

[caucasianheat]

They play like a Tortorella team alright. It feels like Vancouver has been the same team for a really long time. I guess they could not change a thing (relatively) and still be competitive and in contention for at least a few more years with what they have now. Definitely seems like a team that's better than a wild card spot. They still need guys who aren't the Sedins to score consistently and none of their free agent gets in that vein seem to work out. Roy did nothing there, Booth is maybe approaching bust territory and Santorelli is touch and go.

Maybe it's because I don't have to hear people talking about his emotional state all the time, but Luongo does look much more composed this year. Having to hang around and wait for a spot polished Eddie Lack up pretty nicely as well.

Opine to me Sean: who is the best prospect in an organization that seems to prefer slower development? Has the Schroeder ship sailed? I thought Horvat looked alright at World Jrs, but he's not as quick as a lot of players at that tournament were.

[Pizza]

Grabovski had an unkeepable contract and part of placating Kessel enough to sign means having to take care of his roommate, too. Bozak's been probably the best Toronto forward since he came back five or six games ago anyway and he undeniably compliments that top line. You can see the difference when he's away and when he's not.

A lot of Leafs fans are unnecessarily hard on Bozak. Bozak is being paid fairly and was worth keeping. But it wasn't a choice between Bozak and Grabovski. It was a choice of 2 out of Bozak, Grabovski and Clarkson. We ditched the guy Carlyle didn't like for a prototypical Carlyle guy and that's worked out terrible. Clarkson has a worse contract than Grabovski, and Grabbos next contract is going to make the one we bought out look like a bargain.

Carlyle came advertised as a dick. He's a dick. If you can't handle playing for a coach who is not nice, you should quit professional sports.

Maybe. But the roster is the roster. If the young guys don't pan out, we're in for 7 years just like the last 7. The core of this team is locked into place, $34 million is committed through 2018. We need somebody who can get the most out of Kadri, Reilly and Gardiner, and Carlyle's approach isn't working. This isn't a "Maybe Laviolette can get us into the playoffs this year so we can lose to Boston again!" situation, this is about the long term future of the club, and Carlyle's doing irreparable damage. Not to mention the 50 shots against per night is down to tactics as much as the guys. Carlyle's stubbornly sticking to a system that this team can't execute rather than one that again plays to this teams strength.

I'm not even saying Carlyle is a bad coach. But he's a terrible fit for this specific team, and for better or worse, this team is locked into place. The sooner he goes, the better the chances for this team to make something of the guys they have.

[caucasianheat]

But even if they passed on Clarkson, you'd still have five centers and four jobs. The only alternatives I see that allow Grabovski to stay would be trading Kadri's rights or not doing a Dave Bolland deal.

It doesn't surprise me that MacArthur and Grabovski leave and make Toronto look stupid in doing so, since that's what they both did to their old teams when they came to Toronto initially. I don't think Grabovski will ever make significantly more than he would have on the contract he was bought out of and that's not a criticism.

Perhaps in some way Carlyle is forcing these guys to play unnaturally so he can say "See!?" to management and get more of what he wants. It just strikes me that playing a speedy, offensive game as people have suggested was (with mostly the same players under Ron Wilson) an unmitigated disaster that they brought Carlyle in to fix with systems. So maybe he's not 100% wrong?

I should point out I think Reilly is developing great instincts and they've pretty much done it exactly right with him so far. I think he's got tons of versatile potential and will be successful for them longterm.

[SeanDMan]

Among smart Canucks fans there is a lot of excitement to guance. lack and or tanev if they count. Beyond that, mostly hope.