EWR Stats and Scenarios in Theory and Practice

[mkpunk]

I'm not sure about playability problems - it's been years since I last played EWR at all - but it can take an age to load if there's too much data in there, and when half that data is expendable, then why keep it?

Which brings me to something else that really needs addressing; relationships. It's another thing that constantly gets added, or at least suggested, to EWR stats updates with very little regard to the actual gameplay mechanics. Just because Wrestler X said he liked Wrestler Y in an interview doesn't warrant a friendship relationship, and not everybody who's ever appeared on Art Of Wrestling should have a friendship relationship with Colt Cabana. It should entirely come down to what these relationships affect in the game, and how feasible they are.

Not to mention that, in running monthly updates, there's always the chance of running up a backlog of "relationships" that are completely false. A dirtsheet mentions that two guys don't like each other, it's added to the database. Six months later, it's a complete non-issue, and was probably never true in the first place, yet the relationship is still there.

Perfect case in point Homicide and Dan Maff. Maff and Cide had a true legit falling out in March 2005 and basically blackballed him with any promoter who worked with Homicide. Maff and Cide eventually got on speaking terms (longer than six months) when Cide couldn't work JAPW as often due to TNA commitments and brought back Maff into JAPW. However this wasn't public knowledge for along time (thanks to the recent event at an ICW show where they had a Mega Powers Handshake moment.)

Some of the relationships fall and aren't as good as they once was and some stay strong. CM Punk for instance is pretty loyal and didn't need to say put over Chris Hero, Raven and Samoa Joe on his Best in the World dvd but he did. Why because he is true to his friends. He insisted Joey Mercury and Luke Gallows being in the SES for the same reason rather than some random guys for the same reason. Mike Quackenbush is another case who is loyal to his students (taking from the Japanese logic.) Now say Sami Zayn (for example) is not as loyal to his all of friends.

To me the problem is you can run any side of this spectrum so for every Quackenbush there is a true loyalty, there is another trainer who isn't.

The hell does that mean?

Basically unlike Punk who is annoyed when friends get fired, Zayn's like oh well, it's no big deal. Of course, I don't know if it's true or not.

He means that Zayn never learned how to be a good friend when he was down in Generico's orphanage.

Wait I thought Zayn is Canadian. Generico is in Mexico with Nacho Libre.

Edited October 30, 2013 by mkpunk

[LittleDaniel]

No one that good could've come out of, ugh, Canada.

[Azazel]

Some of the relationships fall and aren't as good as they once was and some stay strong. CM Punk for instance is pretty loyal and didn't need to say put over Chris Hero, Raven and Samoa Joe on his Best in the World dvd but he did. Why because he is true to his friends. He insisted Joey Mercury and Luke Gallows being in the SES for the same reason rather than some random guys for the same reason. Mike Quackenbush is another case who is loyal to his students (taking from the Japanese logic.) Now say Sami Zayn (for example) is not as loyal to his all of friends.

To me the problem is you can run any side of this spectrum so for every Quackenbush there is a true loyalty, there is another trainer who isn't.

The hell does that mean?

Basically unlike Punk who is annoyed when friends get fired, Zayn's like oh well, it's no big deal. Of course, I don't know if it's true or not.

Friendships in wrestling is an odd subject. Even if your best friend gets fired you often cannot do much about it. That's like saying Paul London and Brian Kendrick aren't true friends because the other stayed when their friend got fired when they really have no way to change the situation.

If anything, I would say Zayn is more loyal to his friends than Quack is to his students.

[snakesonaplane]

Didn't Bill post a really useful guide to how relationships affect worker morale in EWR? I think that should be better understood and considered when adding new relationships, basically relationships should be rare as they can affect worker morale significantly, which brings me to trainer loyalty...

Bill said,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hire a Blood Relative: +20 Morale

Fire a Blood Relative: -25 Morale

Hire a Dislike: -20 Morale

Fire a Dislike: No Change

Hire a Friendship: +10 Morale

Fire a Friendship: -25 Morale

Hire a Hate: -40 Morale

Fire a Hate: No Change

Hire a Love: +20 Morale

Fire a Love: -25 Morale

Hire a Loyalty: +10 Morale

Fire a Loyalty: -25 Morale

So, as an example: Brie Bella and Daniel Bryan have a "Love" relationship in the game. So, if you had Brie on your roster and hired Bryan, Brie's morale would go up by 20. If both were on the roster and you fired either, the one that you kept would have their morale drop by 25.

Firing a Loyalty or Love also has the chance that the person you don't fire will leave as well, especially if they are only under an open contract.

Hopefully, this helps some when suggesting to add relationships into the game.

Are two people really "friends" enough that they'd drop 25 points in morale if you fired their "friend"?

Is a trainer "loyal" enough to a student that they'd drop 25 points in morale and perhaps even leave the promotion, if you fired their trainee?"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trainer loyalty: I don't know for sure but I also have a feeling the concept of trainer loyalty (and arguably 'loyalty' in general) is one of those features that is meant to simulate the Japanese wrestling universe, such as the promotion loyalty feature in TEW 13 being designed for Japan. This makes sense... worker loyalty and 'discipleship' is a real concept in Japan, but where does this happen outside Japan ? Not saying it doesn't, just would like some examples.

I feel like the loyalty relationship for trainers and trainees should probably not be used in the US at all, as i'm not aware of anyone operating like it exists in real life. To an extent I could see it occuring in Mexico, but often this is also the result of politics and blood relations rather than trainer loyalty. It is plausible for Mexico though, but given the strong effect it has on morale it needs to be considered carefully no matter what region it exists in.

Like Bill highlighted above, if you fire a person with whom a worker has loyalty there is a chance the other party will quit the promotion, do people really see that happening in the US with Al Snow and the Tough Enough guys? Or even Quak and any of his trainees if they were all in TNA or something? I don't.

As Azazel explains above, this is unlikely even if there is a friendship because people don't want to be out of work! So if you add that sort of relationship, which creates a chance the other worker will quit in progress, it's gotta to be something that is really legit.

Friendship: As Bill highlighted in the statement above, friendship is another relationship that has strong effects on morale, it should only be given when people are likely to get pissed if their friend is fired. I think the problem with how the relationship is given sometimes is that 'like' is confused with friendship, and work accquaintances are not the same as friends. I'm friends with a lot of people at my work, I like them, but we are not really 'friends' and if they got fired I'd miss them for a time, but my morale isn't going to tank the same as if someone I was 'loyal' to was fired. The morale penalties for these relationships are all similar and reflect different types of platonic relationships, but which have equivalent value for the individual in context. Someone could be a really close friend, like a brother to you (friendship), or like father (loyalty) etc.

Also, as relationships are created organically in the game universe it's not really that necessary to add a lot of these to the database, as they have a strong effect on gameplay and if not done correctly will hurt the data; also by not adding a massive amount of relationships it makes the game world more unique with each re-play, as the relationships in play are more based around randomly generated rather than preset ones. In my data, I tend to focus on getting blood relationships and love in as detailed as possible. After that I focus on any existing documented loyalty, then any friendships that are with or between powerful in-game characters, i.e. people who are friends with bookers or owners, or who are disliked by bookers or owners. Reason being, setting relationship between workers and owners/bookers will actually affect gameplay meaningfully as it will affect peoples push and who gets signed/fired, where as many 'friendships' between workers with no power or status in the game world is fairly meaningless and has little to no effect on the simulation.

Edited October 30, 2013 by snakesonaplane

[jupiterhill]

I don't want to get into all this on most of the other stuff, but have a couple thoughts on non workers and relationships.

Non-workers- I don't have a problem keeping them in. Shawn Michaels doesn't wrestle anymore, but still shows up on occasion. When he shows up, people want to use him in their game in some capacity. It may seem like it just takes a couple seconds to add them back in, but when you just have 4 or 5 guys a month you need to add just because they pop up a few times a year, it makes more sense just to keep them in. I do agree though that their stats do need to decrease over time though. Bill has stated many times that he has a few pages of backlog that he tries to work on each month in addition to the suggestions made by people. No need to make more pages just to add/remove people who are still alive and in the game.

Relationships- I have said for a long time that there are way too many in the game. I've even used the argument that anywhere you work you create friends and people you dislike. Unless they are best friend/mortal enemy, you won't lose sleep (or morale) just because coworkers are fired. If they are relatives that a different case. I think we could probably cut half of the friendships out of the game and it would speed the start time up and would still be accurate. Really the only friendships that need to be kept are ones like HBK and HHH that are so obvious that they are more loyalty than friendship.

As for the MMA stuff, eh whatever. I'm not going to lose sleep over what the decision ends up being. I say it has worked the way it has for so long that nothing really needs to be changed. Maybe we make sure that suggestions made for the shooting being ticked is realistic or makes some sort of sense. I heard Harry Smith was training in MMA so I could see him having it ticked, but someone like Kofi- not so much.

[Reflecto Is My Favorite Poster]

So if they're out of the business or on hiatus, remove them.

Yeah, I'd agree with this. Obviously it's something to look at on a case-by-case basis, but if they're not likely to show up, remove them.

The argument that you'd have to create their stats all over again doesn't really carry much weight when that takes all of, what, a minute or two? It's not like worker's stats in EWR are particularly detailed, and it'll be a rare occurence that you'd have to do it anyway, as I doubt we'll see 100 people come out of retirement in a single month any time soon.

It comes down to the central point of this thread - what's more important to people, size or functionality? Do we want a huge database full of guys you probably won't ever use, or have never heard of, or one that plays well and is tailored around the gameplay mechanics rather than being exhaustive?

Well, the argument of creating their stats also doesn't carry much weight. One example for just now: Spike Dudley retired in 2010, and would have been deleted then. This year, he's not just returned to wrestling on a part-time role, but he's also wrestled for two promotions in the game [2CW and TNA, albeit TNA's was a one-off appearance.] So, there is a point for functionality on the wrestler roster.

If you're going to eliminate things in the game to streamline it, it's better to eliminate the first things to delete anyway- things like the dodgier relationships as has been said or even some of the dodgier tag teams (does every single two people who've ever teamed with each other in at least one match need to be in the game file)?,

Edited October 30, 2013 by Reflecto Is My Favorite Poster

[Nerf]

Non-workers- I don't have a problem keeping them in. Shawn Michaels doesn't wrestle anymore, but still shows up on occasion. When he shows up, people want to use him in their game in some capacity. It may seem like it just takes a couple seconds to add them back in, but when you just have 4 or 5 guys a month you need to add just because they pop up a few times a year, it makes more sense just to keep them in. I do agree though that their stats do need to decrease over time though. Bill has stated many times that he has a few pages of backlog that he tries to work on each month in addition to the suggestions made by people. No need to make more pages just to add/remove people who are still alive and in the game.

Nobody is arguing against Shawn Michaels still being in the data, though. They're saying that when Giant Gonzalez is still kicking around in there, it's time to purge.

[Lineker]

For years that bloody Al Snow and Kane tag-team has been in there, please for the love of christ delete it.

[jupiterhill]

Non-workers- I don't have a problem keeping them in. Shawn Michaels doesn't wrestle anymore, but still shows up on occasion. When he shows up, people want to use him in their game in some capacity. It may seem like it just takes a couple seconds to add them back in, but when you just have 4 or 5 guys a month you need to add just because they pop up a few times a year, it makes more sense just to keep them in. I do agree though that their stats do need to decrease over time though. Bill has stated many times that he has a few pages of backlog that he tries to work on each month in addition to the suggestions made by people. No need to make more pages just to add/remove people who are still alive and in the game.

Nobody is arguing against Shawn Michaels still being in the data, though. They're saying that when Giant Gonzalez is still kicking around in there, it's time to purge.

I just used him as a recent example. Somebody mentioned Edge earlier (maybe not to remove him but as an example as well). Though I do agree someone like Gonzalez should be removed (especially since he passed away in 2010). Kamala could be another example as I doubt he wouldn't be used in a multi-week storyline.

I think the first thing though is removing some of the relationships, then we can weed out some of the retired workers. I think maybe if a 5 year limit would be good. If they haven't wrestled or been used more than a couple times since say 2008, we could start removing them.

[Nerf]

5 years? Fuck that.

If they don't make an appearance on TV at least once a year, I'd cut them.

[jupiterhill]

Goldust wasn't on TV for over a year was he?

I say 5 years just so that we don't have cases where people are added and deleted just because they don't appear in a couple years. If they don't show up for a few years its a lot less likely they will come back on a consistent basis.

[Reflecto Is My Favorite Poster]

If you're using the retired workers to be released, there should be some distinct, fair ways to release them:

1- Does the wrestler serve an obvious Non-Wrestling purpose in game? That is relatively easy- if they have Announcer ticked, then they should be kept in the game. Maybe it's unlikely and farfetched, but in the unlikely chance, say, someone decides "I really, really want Charlie Haas as my color man", that would be the tiebreaker to keep him in the game against, say, Jackie Gayda (who does not have announcer ticked.)

On the same token- if someone was basically an announcer who had one brief moment as a manager (examples: Mike Adamle, Don West, Jonathan Coachman), just move them back to being announcers and delete them from the in-ring portion.

2- If you look at the person and can say "Oh, COME ON! The hell this person's ever coming back to wrestling!", then Cut them. Example: Claire Lynch- Does anyone really believe she'll ever be back in a wrestling ring, ever?.

3- Overness should matter in the choices for who to release. The more over a wrestler is and the more memorable they were, the more likely they would reasonably make an appearance. Maybe Batista won't make regular appearances now that his film career's starting to take off- but that doesn't change that we're far, far, FAR more likely to see Batista make a special appearance on a WWE TV show than, say, the 1-over Hiroshi Nagao making an appearance on a wrestling show.

[Sousa]

It's also important to remember that Goldust never really stopped wrestling when he wasn't working for WWE--he made one-off appearances in a lot of indy promotions and generally kept up appearances.

I think if you want to look at guys to get rid of, look at the host of guys who made a few appearances in indy promotions for a few years, never went anywhere, and then sort of disappeared. Dirtbike Kid was brought up in the other thread and is a great example--is anyone really going to ever use Dirtbike Kid again? He hasn't wrestled in well over ten years, was notorious for only one angle with Sasuke, and has probably moved on with his life since then. Lash LeRoux is someone I'm fairly certain is still lurking in the data even though he hasn't wrestled for a long, long time and is basically now doing nothing but youth pastoring and drawing stuff. Those are just off the top of my head; what are these guys doing in the data? Somebody might say "for backyard-to-global games," but how many people do you honestly need to do that?

[Mick]

But what if I want to use Lash LeRoux?!

[Sousa]

Add him back in and check Cajun Ability.

[Reflecto Is My Favorite Poster]

It's also important to remember that Goldust never really stopped wrestling when he wasn't working for WWE--he made one-off appearances in a lot of indy promotions and generally kept up appearances.

I think if you want to look at guys to get rid of, look at the host of guys who made a few appearances in indy promotions for a few years, never went anywhere, and then sort of disappeared. Dirtbike Kid was brought up in the other thread and is a great example--is anyone really going to ever use Dirtbike Kid again? He hasn't wrestled in well over ten years, was notorious for only one angle with Sasuke, and has probably moved on with his life since then. Lash LeRoux is someone I'm fairly certain is still lurking in the data even though he hasn't wrestled for a long, long time and is basically now doing nothing but youth pastoring and drawing stuff. Those are just off the top of my head; what are these guys doing in the data? Somebody might say "for backyard-to-global games," but how many people do you honestly need to do that?

But, this also does have a point for it- some people are saying to make dramatic, baby with the bathwater-level ones because, as was said earlier,

What about the 4000 people in the database that no one has ever heard of or will ever use?

If you go too far, you'll only be left with people currently in the game's promotions (and potentially not many new up and comers from them), really well-known wrestlers who were in the Big three [which keeps a lot of the problem Non-Wrestlers] or unknown guys who had really really really good stats who someone whined they need in the game/the longtime issue in stat threads that boiled down to "So what if Jamie Koeppe only did one photo shoot for WWE Magazine and never showed up on a WWE televised show, she's really hot and I WANNA have her in the game!" types. This goes against one of the things that's good about EWR- the fact it DOES keep a lot of unknown or barely known wrestlers forces you to actually work and learn more about wrestling, not just in major feds, and having a lot of unknown wrestlers is a big reason for that.

[Mick]

I can't speak for that, but here's my own thoughts from experience.

I used to be excited when I was playing and I would be able to pick up someone like Benoit or Austin. I'd be happy to see "Oh, Benoit's joining us in one month".

Now, why do I bring this up? Because, if you played EWR with any data between 1990 and June 2007, you would know that, charisma aside, Benoit had absolutely fantastic stats. With all these essentially unknown workers, packing inflated stats, finding someone on the in-game caliber of Benoit during those years is insanely easy, and it absolutely kills it for me.

There are people and probably federations that are likely not needed at all.

[mkpunk]

I don't think many people really care about the Mexican or Japanese guys (I would include Australian and European but I know there are a good number who play the games.) Hell many people don't even use American indy guys outside of ROH, DGUSA and maybe PWG guys.

[Skummy]

I'd assume more people care about "Mexican and Japanese guys" than Australian and European, particularly as Mexico is an active game area in EWR.

[Hobo]

The relationship system in EWR is pretty awful and rigid. I say cut as many of them as possible.