The England thread

[The Lusophone]

Wonder who'll replace him.

[stokeriño]

Martin Samuel's article on the situation pretty much sums up my thoughts:

Spare us from Strictly Come Racism in this Terry conundrum

By Martin Samuel

John Terry. Why doesn’t he just sod off? It would be so much more convenient that way.

So much easier for everybody if he would just accept that the verdict of the kangaroo courts is in, without the tiresome necessity of due legal process in a proper one.

Judged unfit to captain England in the grand court of Twitter, messageboards and radio vox pops, why doesn’t Terry just slink away and accept that nobody has the patience for a fair trial these days?

We want to vote now. We want to press the red button to interact. We have decided the England captain is the weakest link. Goodbye.

What a nuisance he is, with his talk of innocence and his stubborn refusal to stand down. He should just resign, safe in the knowledge nobody would read this as an admission of guilt. This is a civilised society, after all. We don’t presume. We don’t pre-judge. And we don’t involve ourselves in idle gossip. Ask Gary Speed’s family.

No, nobody would read anything into the news that the England captain had quit his job pending a trial for a racially aggravated public order offence. They wouldn’t speculate that new evidence had emerged making his position untenable. No smoke without fire, they certainly wouldn’t say.

July 9. How hearts must have sunk at the FA when they were tossed that little hand grenade from Court One. The District Judge, the aptly named Howard Riddle, presented Terry’s masters with a conundrum of fiendish complexity by delaying his case until after the European Championship.

Terry could lift England’s first trophy since 1966 as the hero of a nation on July 1, and be branded a racist in Westminster Magistrates’ Court less than two weeks later; a horrible prospect.

The alternative, however, is to strip England’s captain of the greatest professional honour — for the second time in his career — on the back of something he might have done. Maybe. We’re looking into it.

We are told our multi-racial society will not accept such a prominent public figure being accused of racism; well then, our multi-racial society needs to grow up.

Accusations, we can handle. Accusations are dealt with fairly, then judgement is passed if guilty. To start passing sentence — and to lose the England captaincy is a sentence — on the basis of as yet unproven accusations is fundamentally unjust.

The FA have been dealt a devilish hand, but it is not their fault. They had almost completed their investigation into what passed between Terry and Anton Ferdinand when high-handedly ordered to wait for the police investigation.

This moved at glacial speed, so an incident that took place in autumn 2011 will now be resolved in summer 2012.

There is the possibility that the FA will convene their own hearing before then — the ICC did against Pakistan’s spot- fixing cricketers before their criminal trial — but what if it found Terry had no case to answer? Instantly, the FA would be accused of expediency, of potentially sabotaging a police case for their own ends.

They could not win, unless they found Terry guilty and sated the baying mob.

Jason Roberts, who is busily playing up an average career in football — he joined Reading from Blackburn last week — into a more rewarding one in the media, instantly announced via Twitter that Terry should not go to the European Championship at all, let alone as captain.

‘Believe me, the dressing room will be toxic,’ he said. Yet why should we believe him? Why should we believe anybody, without evidence?

Roberts knows no more about the politics of the England dressing room — he has won 22 caps, but for Grenada — than we do about the events at Loftus Road on October 23.

We need hard facts, not vague implorations. We are going to find out the truth of this matter, but sometime after July 9. Sorry if that is vexatious.

Sorry if that does not suit the need for a nightly eviction. Maybe there is something on another channel that you can watch.

We have heard this all before around Terry. The dressing room was going to be toxic after the Wayne Bridge controversy, and when he was reinstated to replace Rio Ferdinand.

Now it will be poisoned again. Yet when Fabio Capello asked if any players had problems with Terry’s return as captain, he was met with silence.

When Capello asked the new young players which of the senior professionals took time out to welcome them and stayed in touch after international duty, Terry scored highly again.

The only way Capello will remove Terry is if he thinks the storm around him will adversely affect the focus of the squad. His decision will be pragmatic, not moral, because to replace Terry on moral grounds alone is to treat an accusation as proof of guilt.

And it would be convenient if that were the case. Very convenient for those with a finger on the red button.

But this is a man’s reputation and career at stake. It is not Strictly Come Racism.

*slow clap for the FA*

No one was calling for Harry Redknapp to be put on 'gardening leave' by Spurs in the run-up to his trial. Maybe because Spurs have more balls than the FA?

I look forward to Capello announcing that one of the substantially-less-than-angelic pair Rio Ferdinand or Steven Gerrard are the new model for English decency...since that's apparently all the England captaincy is these days, but only so far as John Terry is concerned.

[Colly]

Meh, we should never have given him it back last time, but as you say there's not exactly a lineup of saints to take over. Joe Hart? James Milner?

[stokeriño]

From a purely footballing perspective (by which I mean, shove the 'moral' shit to one side for a moment), Capello will obviously be looking to the most senior members of the squad, but also for someone who's pretty much an assured starter...and unfortunately, most of the most senior members of the squad no longer fit this requirement. Ferdinand spends so much time crocked that he can't even get selected when fit. Gerrard suffers from a similar tendency to remove himself from selection - although I'm not even sure he'd be in England's 'first choice' midfield these days. Lampard is now mainly on the bench, no place for a captain. Rooney, hilariously awful a decision that would be, is moot due to his suspension anyway.

So let's think...who's the most senior player in the England line-up who's virtually guaranteed a start in every match?

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[therockbox]

Gareth Barry, England captain.

[IAceI]

As far as I'm concerned, captain or not, John Terry will still be looked at to lead the team and give the instructions for England matches. He just won't have the pleasure of saying "heads or tails" and choosing a direction to kick or whether he wants us to kick off.

Not really arsed but it's a lovely story for the media to get their teeth sunk into so I imagine it'll run and run.

Sooner we're knocked out and I can support the Germans in peace..

[Adam]

From a purely footballing perspective (by which I mean, shove the 'moral' shit to one side for a moment), Capello will obviously be looking to the most senior members of the squad, but also for someone who's pretty much an assured starter...and unfortunately, most of the most senior members of the squad no longer fit this requirement. Ferdinand spends so much time crocked that he can't even get selected when fit. Gerrard suffers from a similar tendency to remove himself from selection - although I'm not even sure he'd be in England's 'first choice' midfield these days. Lampard is now mainly on the bench, no place for a captain. Rooney, hilariously awful a decision that would be, is moot due to his suspension anyway.

So let's think...who's the most senior player in the England line-up who's virtually guaranteed a start in every match?

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

I underwent this exact same thought process this morning. Was rushing my teeth, heard on the radio that the F.A. had decided to strip him of the captaincy, and thought "well every other choice is hardly a great figure of morality...Rio Ferdinand, Steven Gerrard? Lampard doesn't play, and Rooney is suspended for half the tournament anyway.

Then I laughed out loud to myself as I remembered that Ashley Cole was next in line logically after that. Dear me.

Can we please have a tournament in which there are no major controversies beforehand? No? Alright then.

[Starvinho]

No surprise they took the armband off Terry, Capello will probably go with Gerrard for captain now. I'd rather have Scott Parker or someone younger, a lot of people are talking about Joe Hart? Not so sure about that though.

[therockbox]

Arise Sir Phil

[Starvinho]

Arise Sir Phil

:lmao: Lol what a great picture.

I think Jones is a future captain but not this early in his career. Maybe after the next World Cup he might be a good shout.

[Dingle]

Since when has Jones showed any captain characteristics to make you think he would be suitable for the role? It's because he's a United CB isn't it?

Honestly, aside from Terry I've been scratching my head as to who would get the armband anyway, were this to happen. Joe Hart seems the most logical shout to me, seems to get on with everyone and I've read that he's a big influence in games for his players, but I'm not a big fan of a keeper leading the team since he's mostly kicking back in the net, but he's certainly an influential figure in games. Then again I pretty much agree with Ace, Terry will still be the one in charge, even if he's not got the band that says so, because who else have we got to lead the charge?

[stokeriño]

Since when has Jones showed any captain characteristics to make you think he would be suitable for the role? It's because he's a United CB isn't it?

Competent centre-backs who demonstrate no obvious character flaws often get hailed as "future captains" with no real logic. It seems to happen at a load of clubs.

[Asuka's Gonna Kill You]

Would love to see it go to Parker, though I don't think it will, which is a shame to be honest.

[IAceI]

I don't see why not give it to Scott 'England's Rose' Parker, he's got all the attributes we like. He tackles, has work rate and tucks his shirt into his shorts.

Give it to him and the FA can parade him to the media as "The new look England captain" after all our recent captaincy problems. Which will set it up brilliantly for when he's caught on camera with a lass sat on his face with her vagina dusted in cocaine.

[Adam]

Hey guys, David Beckham hasn't officially retired from international duty yet

[Dingle]

Since when has Jones showed any captain characteristics to make you think he would be suitable for the role? It's because he's a United CB isn't it?

Competent centre-backs who demonstrate no obvious character flaws often get hailed as "future captains" with no real logic. It seems to happen at a load of clubs.

I've forever wondered where this comes from, because in an ideal world I'd want my captain in the middle of the field leading the charge and working hard. Which is why I now feel stupid for not thinking of Scotty Parker. That boy MUST feature in our team, he's fucking excellent. I'd happily see him with the captaincy, even if it's just in name only.

On a different note, has anyone got a starting 11 that they'd put out? Without Rooney, Wilshire, Ferdinand, Gerrard and Lampard as shoo(shoe?)-in's for the team, seems an interesting time to start looking towards the future - although whether I actually expect Fabio to try something new for his final competition is a totally different kettle of sardines.

Mine: Hart, Richards, Jones, Terry, Cole, Barry, Parker, Milner, Johnson, Carrol, Welbeck.

Heavily tempted by Sturridge but the truth is, I just haven't seen him play enough to justify throwing his name onto this. Richards over Walker and Johnson is obvious for me, but I'm aware of potential issues Fabio has with Micah, so that's that on the RB front. Barry as anchor, allowing Richards and Cole to move forward with force if needs be. Parker would play central, but ahead of Barry. Milner and Johnson occupying the flanks but not too advanced that it would leave holes in the midfield. And then Carrol as your standard target man (because as we are England, we MUST long ball it when nothing else works out for us) and Welbeck's in fine form poaching and goal-getting.

[stokeriño]

Mine: Hart, Richards, Jones, Terry, Cole, Barry, Parker, Milner, Johnson, Carrol, Welbeck.

Heavily tempted by Sturridge but the truth is, I just haven't seen him play enough to justify throwing his name onto this.

Sturridge surely deserves a spot over Johnson, who's only getting to play in bits and pieces these days.

...And Carroll? Not Bent or, well, anyone else? Hell, if we were being ultra-pessimistic long-ball-to-the-beanpole types, I'd still take Crouch over Carroll. ¬_¬

[Adam]

Bent is a lock up front for me in Rooney's absence. Nobody else available is as good at getting goals as he is.

Hart, Richards/Johnson, Cahill, Terry, Cole, Parker, Carrick, Milner, Young, Sturridge, Bent.

Can't believe I'd pick Carrick. And Cahill is really dependent on whether or not he plays regularly in a successful Chelsea back-line alongside Terry and Cole for the rest of this season. Familiarity breeds success, and I think England would do well to play to this more often than picking the best 11 individuals.

Edited February 3, 2012 by AdamDRFC

[Starvinho]

Since when has Jones showed any captain characteristics to make you think he would be suitable for the role? It's because he's a United CB isn't it?

He must have some captain chracteristics considering he captained the England U-21's at last years Euro's despite being the youngest player in the squad (apart from Wickham I think) and on top of that countless managers and players have said he's got the attributes to be a future captain. But obviously all the plaudits and recognition he gets now are obviously just because he plays for United and not because he's one of the best young English players about.

[Dingle]

Cesc was given the captains armband and he was never that great a captain, so just because "people say so" doesn't sit well with me. I never denied him being an outstanding talent and one of the best young English players (I would pick him in my team for England, although if Cahill was being started regularly for Chelsea alongside Cole and Terry and performing well enough, I would probably give Gazza the nod). I just don't think Jones has shown any real leadership qualities on the pitch in order to justify touting him as a future captain, I tend not to just absorb the opinions of everyone else and try to judge him based on my own interpretations, however wrong or correct they may be.

Stok: I'd definitely pick Bent, but I'm sort of looking forward to the future. I probably got carried away thinking "Hmm shit, we need a big man in here or else it wouldn't be the England team", and I do not rate Crouchy over Carrol. If only because I'm worried 24/7 that his matchstick legs are going to snap on him one day, and he just looks so damn clumsy on the ball.

Yeahh Johnson's not getting full matches, but from a City-heavy midfield I'd probably still select him based on familiarity with Milner and Barry, and I completely forgot about Ashley Young >_>. When I've seen Sturridge play more, I may change my mind, but I've maybe seen half a game and Chelsea didn't do much of anything in that game (I forget which match) so it wasn't really fair to judge.