**SPOILERS!** A Thread of Ice And Fire: A Game of Thrones book discussion thread **SPOILERS**

[Gazz]

I quite like having two interpretations based off of the same source material. I sort of hope that the show and books have wildly different endings too.

[TKz]

I quite like having two interpretations based off of the same source material. I sort of hope that the show and books have wildly different endings too.

Yeah, it'd be nice, that way we can have the real ending and a happy ending. >_>

[Roster Depth Sicko No. 2]

I admire the optimism that you think we're getting a happy ending in either adaptation

[lanky316]

We are, Jon and Dany will be married and rule the entire world as a nephew and aunt. Meanwhile Bran (now a tree) will smile down on the Earth while the wild dragons take care of that zombie problem everyone has ignored. Everyone else is unimportant.

*makes note to come back and spoiler when it happens*

Edited April 17, 2015 by lanky316

[DFF]

No young griff seems a little silly. After all, if he's important to the plot, he should be there. If he isn't, then they've just spoiled the books, surely?

[Roster Depth Sicko No. 2]

Not really. If the show is getting it's own timeline, then you can just say that Aegon is actually dead in the show if he doesn't get included. That's what everyone show-wise believes anyway, the only person who knew otherwise was Varys, and he's sending Tyrion to Dany instead in the show.

It's an adaptation. Things will be different.

[Benjamin]

I don't think they're going to add any totally new arcs from now. I think they realize how chaotic keeping up with so many stories and areas of the maps can be.

[Roster Depth Sicko No. 2]

The only things I want added next season are Bran's story (probably necessary and pretty much confirmed) and the Ironborn to come in so that they actually have a purpose on the show other than to ruin everything for the Starks and become Bolton playthings.

[TCO]

I get the different timelines but think the reason the show is so jarring is because up until this point it was a pretty tight adaptation with only a few changes. The Ironborn were kind of ignored and there were a few tweaks but they've gone drastically different this season. The changes are a bit silly too.

Sansa replacing Jeyne makes no sense. It's essentially Littlefinger revealing his hand to everyone. There's no way in hell he'd hand Sansa over to Roose Bolton and especially not have her marry Ramsey who's a known psychopath. Sansa is the key to the North, and the Bolton's will have Stannis' full force of Wildlings coming down upon them. It's completely out of character for Littlefinger.

Brienne look like a complete moron, she's not even supposed to be aware that Sansa and Arya are alive, yet she's met them both by chance and lost them pretty easily. Varys looks like an idiot too, his only plan was based off Daenarys coming to rule yet he sat back when she was married to Khal Drogo and had Robert Baratheon wanting her dead. Backing Young Griff makes sense because he was under the radar, raised and protected by Jon Connington.

Also what's Doran Martell's motivation for secretly plotting against the Lannisters now that I assume Quentyn isn't a thing? His whole plan centred around marrying Arianne to Viserys and then Quentyn to Daenarys before uprising. What's his motivation for inaction now?

Gah!

[Roster Depth Sicko No. 2]

One thing I don't understand about the leaks, given I haven't watched the episodes and don't know if there has been an explanation, is how Sansa is even allowed to marry Ramsey, if that is the plan?

By now the whole realm must know that Tyrion escaped, and since he therefore isn't dead, is still married to Sansa.

[lanky316]

I'd debate about how it's been "pretty tight" up to now. There have been whole plot lines dropped/switched around well before now and one of the characters in the first series who got quite a fair amount of screen time was a random prostitute who seemed bigger than half the actual characters. It shouldn't therefore be a surprise when we get to the meat and drink that various arcs and things barely touched upon would leave holes in. It's up to them to fill them around and swap people in accordingly as well as they can. Even though it was a relatively minor part of the books Jeyne Poole's absence was always going to come up in some way, even before we understood the extent. Sansas catchphrase in the 2nd and parts of the third book was essentially "what happened to Jeyne?" which alluded to it being a bit deeper as a plot line. Generally they do pretty well of filling holes and working around things but it was never particularly close to the books. Jons parentage has barely been raised, presumably there'll be a revelation but it'll absolutely come out of nowhere due to earlier decisions. It's not a criticism per se, they've done well to keep it into a watchable tv program without losing control but it was always going to feature sacrifices.

RE - Sansa and Ramsey, your guess is as good as mine on that. They'll find a way of writing themselves out of that hole if it comes to it. It might even be as simple as having someone calling him "missing, presumed dead". Although that said, wasn't Sansa also a suspect in the murder of Joffrey? Minds all gone way too hazy and lost track of that at the moment.

[Roster Depth Sicko No. 2]

Good point on Sansa being included in Joffrey's death, forgot that would impact it as well. Makes it more puzzling.

[Hellraiser]

One thing I don't understand about the leaks, given I haven't watched the episodes and don't know if there has been an explanation, is how Sansa is even allowed to marry Ramsey, if that is the plan?

By now the whole realm must know that Tyrion escaped, and since he therefore isn't dead, is still married to Sansa.

Who is going to oppose the wedding now that Tywin is dead? The Lannisters have enough problems on their hands as it is. Things are kinda falling apart at King's Landing. I doubt that those in charge really give a damn what happens to Sansa. And with Varys and his birds gone do they even know where she is?

Sansa replacing Jeyne makes no sense. It's essentially Littlefinger revealing his hand to everyone. There's no way in hell he'd hand Sansa over to Roose Bolton and especially not have her marry Ramsey who's a known psychopath. Sansa is the key to the North, and the Bolton's will have Stannis' full force of Wildlings coming down upon them. It's completely out of character for Littlefinger.

Brienne look like a complete moron, she's not even supposed to be aware that Sansa and Arya are alive, yet she's met them both by chance and lost them pretty easily. Varys looks like an idiot too, his only plan was based off Daenarys coming to rule yet he sat back when she was married to Khal Drogo and had Robert Baratheon wanting her dead. Backing Young Griff makes sense because he was under the radar, raised and protected by Jon Connington.

Also what's Doran Martell's motivation for secretly plotting against the Lannisters now that I assume Quentyn isn't a thing? His whole plan centred around marrying Arianne to Viserys and then Quentyn to Daenarys before uprising. What's his motivation for inaction now?

Gah!

1.I'm pretty sure they'll come up with some kind of scheme that explaines why Littlefinger have Sansa away to the Boltons. I'll trust them on that.

2. Okay, you have a point there. Brienne looks rather silly.

3. I think we've established that Varys' top proprity is the welll being of the realm. We've also established that he is never going to put the realm over his own well being. In his own words he isn't a hero. If he acted against King Robert's orders and supported Dany Robert would've killed him for treason. Also I think he wasn't entirely against Dany marrying Khal Drogo and there is no way he could've forseen his untimely death.

4. I don't know what that means. Does he really need more motivation to plot against the Lannisters other than the murder Elia and her children? The Martells seem to be very vindictive so shouldn't that be motivation enough?

Edited April 17, 2015 by Hellraiser

[Benjamin]

I get the different timelines but think the reason the show is so jarring is because up until this point it was a pretty tight adaptation with only a few changes. The Ironborn were kind of ignored and there were a few tweaks but they've gone drastically different this season. The changes are a bit silly too.

Sansa replacing Jeyne makes no sense. It's essentially Littlefinger revealing his hand to everyone. There's no way in hell he'd hand Sansa over to Roose Bolton and especially not have her marry Ramsey who's a known psychopath. Sansa is the key to the North, and the Bolton's will have Stannis' full force of Wildlings coming down upon them. It's completely out of character for Littlefinger.

Brienne look like a complete moron, she's not even supposed to be aware that Sansa and Arya are alive, yet she's met them both by chance and lost them pretty easily. Varys looks like an idiot too, his only plan was based off Daenarys coming to rule yet he sat back when she was married to Khal Drogo and had Robert Baratheon wanting her dead. Backing Young Griff makes sense because he was under the radar, raised and protected by Jon Connington.

Also what's Doran Martell's motivation for secretly plotting against the Lannisters now that I assume Quentyn isn't a thing? His whole plan centred around marrying Arianne to Viserys and then Quentyn to Daenarys before uprising. What's his motivation for inaction now?

I'm going to assume it'll have something to do with marrying Trystane and Myrcella or something. I don't think they're going to go down the part of Dorne trying to approach Dany. He just looks like a great fool now.

I still can't get over how bad the Brienne and Sansa plots have been written. Brienne has been made out to be the oaf of the entire show. Sansa is now walking about out in the open and Cersei seems to have completely forgotten how much she wanted her dead as well. Plus with Sansa seemingly so willing to get married to another whackjob, another one who murdered a member of her family just screams bad writing.

[Hellraiser]

Again, why do the Marterlls need another reason to plot against the Lannisters than the murder of Elia and her children? Why isn't that enough? Seemed to be enough for Oberyin.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Hellraiser

[GhostMachine]

Read my latest post in the thread about the tv show. Seriously hope they do not go that route.

[Benjamin]

Again, why do the Marterlls need another reason to plot against the Lannisters than the murder of Elia and her children? Why isn't that enough? Seemed to be enough for Oberyin.

No one is asking for what their motivation is. The Martells have no plot now. That is the problem.

[Hellraiser]

Why not? I haven't read past "A Clash of Kings" because I decided I wasn't going to read the books until the show finished but I read about Lady Stoneheart because some of you complained when the actress that played Catelyn Stark announced that she wasn't coming back for Season 4. From that point on I expected them to go in that direction and I see no reason why Sansa shouldn't grow as a character and with help of either Littlefinger or the rest of the north take on that role. In fact if it happens I'm looking forward to it because it would finally make her character interesting.

Again, why do the Marterlls need another reason to plot against the Lannisters than the murder of Elia and her children? Why isn't that enough? Seemed to be enough for Oberyin.

No one is asking for what their motivation is. The Martells have no plot now. That is the problem.

Who says they have no plot? Have you ever considered that the writers of the show may create some completely new elements? It seems to me that I'm the only one here who trusts the writers of the show to write a good story.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Hellraiser

[Roster Depth Sicko No. 2]

What part of my posts has suggested I don't have faith in them? They've done a fine job so far, and by the end of the season I suspect they'll have completely justified all their choices.

[TCO]

Again, why do the Marterlls need another reason to plot against the Lannisters than the murder of Elia and her children? Why isn't that enough? Seemed to be enough for Oberyin.

They have plenty reason, but the pact is the only motivation that Doran has to remain patient and not attack the Lannisters and take the fight to King's Landing. Arianne is frustrated at his inaction until he explains that he's sent Quentyn to Daenerys with the pact and that it was originally supposed to be her and Viserys. That's the reason he's doing nothing, why he locked up his own daughter after her foiled attempt to declare Myrcella as Queen and his rounding up of the Sand Snakes. There's literally no motivation for Doran to not react after Tywin's death. Lord knows what Jamie is doing in Dorne other than being a proxy for Ser Arys.