The Star Wars Thread

[SeanDMan]

I'd counter some of the things you're saying, but you hate the "this is all one universe" idea of Star Wars and don't want anything to be connected to anything else ever, so adding more backstory would just make you uncontrollable.

To me, most of the problems with the prequels were that they tried to tell a bad book story over the course of films. The idea of how a Republic is corrupted into an Empire is a book story. Making that your A story and making the Sith/Jedi battles the B story was a fundamental mistake, but the problem was, they'd already decided this was how things happened; it has been referenced and hinted at that this was how things happened, so it had to be explained. It didn't have to be explained in a movie, though. At least, not as the focal point of the movie (however, they probably wanted to give Natalie Portman and Mr. Palpatine lots of screen time, so I dunno).

Anyway, my major issues with the trilogy apart from the above stated, was the casting, namely of Anakin. He just wasn't that good.

[Skummy]

I don't hate the idea of it all being one universe at all, and there's a necessary amount of connections that need to be drawn - it is a prequel, after all - but is it not enough to tell a story using the relationships we already know exist? Yoda, Obi-Wan, Vader and Palpatine? That's a strong enough story in itself - corruption of youth and potential into anger, hatred, and ultimately evil. The genesis of Darth Vader, and stories of Obi-Wan as a young Jedi, all against the backdrop of the rise of a fascist Empire. That's powerful stuff, and more than enough to carry three movies. I probably wouldn't object to the odd cameo or sly nod beyond that - the brief appearance of Tarkin in Episode III, for example - but it just goes too far.

What does it add to the narrative to suggest that C3PO was built by Anakin Skywalker? Or that Obi-Wan used to own, or at least buddy around with, R2D2? That Yoda knew Chewbacca? That Anakin Skywalker was friends with fucking Greedo as a kid? That the Stormtroopers were all clones of Boba Fett (or Jango, or whoever)? It just muddies the water and, in many cases, actively contradicts the established backstory.

[Mick]

Anakin's mother is calld Shmi

And Anakin's future wife is called Padme, and his name itself isn't that common. Come on, if you want to talk about wooden acting and shitty dialogue, fine, but right now you're picking pepper out of fly shit.

Or that Obi-Wan used to own, or at least buddy around with, R2D2? That Yoda knew Chewbacca? That Anakin Skywalker was friends with fucking Greedo as a kid?

1) Yoda knowing Chewbacca tends to serve the bit in A New Hope when Ben charters a flight. Chewie knows full well what the Jedi can do, and since Chewie knows that the Jedi were more or less wiped out by a betrayal, it further strengthens the arguement to Han that they should take the flight, lest the piss Ben off.

2) If I recall, Greedo is getting is ass kicked by Anakin. Anakin was friends with a Rodian, not Greedo. You think all Rodians look alike?

3) And as far as Obi-Wan and Artoo...so what? It's established that Artoo was the property of the Naboo Royal Family, and thus Padme's, yet in ANH, he's owned by the Organa family, at least initially. For fuck's sake, Leia says "General Kenobi, years ago you helped my father in the Clone Wars". That should lead some credence to the fact that it's at least possible their paths crossed.

[Skummy]

Anakin's mother is calld Shmi

And Anakin's future wife is called Padme, and his name itself isn't that common. Come on, if you want to talk about wooden acting and shitty dialogue, fine, but right now you're picking pepper out of fly shit.

This bit was basically a joke. I just think it's an excessively silly name, but doesn't serve to actually affect the movie at all. I just felt like breaking up my legitimate gripes in the hope of raising a smile.

1) Yoda knowing Chewbacca tends to serve the bit in A New Hope when Ben charters a flight. Chewie knows full well what the Jedi can do, and since Chewie knows that the Jedi were more or less wiped out by a betrayal, it further strengthens the arguement to Han that they should take the flight, lest the piss Ben off.

Okay...I'll perhaps buy that one. I doubt that was ever the intention when that scene in A New Hope was written, and I'm pretty sure Obi Wan just cutting off a guy's arm is reason enough to justify Chewie being impressed by him. But I'll concede on this one - I still don't like it, but that's the only attempt I've ever seen to justify it, and it at least makes some sense.

3) And as far as Obi-Wan and Artoo...so what? It's established that Artoo was the property of the Naboo Royal Family, and thus Padme's, yet in ANH, he's owned by the Organa family, at least initially. For fuck's sake, Leia says "General Kenobi, years ago you helped my father in the Clone Wars". That should lead some credence to the fact that it's at least possible their paths crossed.

What about the line, also in A New Hope, where Obi Wan claims to not recall ever having owned a droid?

[SeanDMan]

I probably wouldn't object to the odd cameo or sly nod beyond that - the brief appearance of Tarkin in Episode III, for example - but it just goes too far.

I feel the same way, but this is an arguement I get a lot from Fallout fans; does discontinuity ruin continuity? Yes and no. Does the amount of something that is mildly annoying ruin the overall package? If you're incredibly anally retentive and have a black hole for a heart who is happy to dislike everything, then yes. Otherwise, you're nitpicking, and even Mick is calling you out for it.

What does it add to the narrative to suggest that C3PO was built by Anakin Skywalker?

Or that Obi-Wan used to own, or at least buddy around with, R2D2?

It was established in A New Hope that Obi Wan owned R2-D2. Not addressing it and still including the characters would have been very strange.

And ultimately, this is the reason; they wanted familiar characters. As has been pointed out, Star Wars was for young adults, not grumpy old misers like you who pick through and analyze things on your film blog. They wanted the characters that kids love (R2 and 3PO) to appear in the old movies for similar reasons as they appeared in the original movies. I wasn't a huge fan of much of what they did but I understand why they were there.

That Yoda knew Chewbacca?

This one is indefensible and I'll just say that anything that happens on forest moons is probably non-canon.

That Anakin Skywalker was friends with fucking Greedo as a kid?

They weren't friends, Greedo was a bully who picked on him. He was as much Anakin's friend as he was Han Solo's.

That the Stormtroopers were all clones of Boba Fett (or Jango, or whoever)?

Again, if you're making a clone army of soldiers, why not use the best warrior you can find as a template? And, again, Boba Fett was a popular character. He's had three different books tell his origin story and, much like the Joker, the definitive origins are still a mystery. If you can't do Batman without the Joker, you can't do Star Wars without the most popular antagonist around (since Darth Vader is essentially a good guy).

[Sousa]

Anakin's mother is calld Shmi.

"DO YOU HEAR THAT, SHMI? IT'S THAT BLASTED CROCODILE!"

[Mick]

What about the line, also in A New Hope, where Obi Wan claims to not recall ever having owned a droid?

Owning a droid. Artoo said he was Obi-Wan's property presumably because Artoo knew about what the Death Star could do, and time was of the essence.

This one is indefensible and I'll just say that anything that happens on forest moons is probably non-canon.

You need to read this bit I read about how the Ewoks were really able to beat the empire. Using arrows that had a powerful neurotoxin, and generally the horrors the stormtroopers were dealing with. It was awesome. Ah, here it is.

Their methods are also given full detail in the 2012 anthology book The Essential Guide to Warfare, where a surviving Imperial Stormtrooper from the battle, Hume Tarn, recalls that they utilized arrows dipped with a neurotoxin powerful enough to paralyze every single muscle in the body including the lungs, leading to an exceptionally gruesome death especially if the wounds are relatively minor compared to being shot in the throat (according to Tarn, the ones shot in the throat were "the lucky ones."); they often lured other Stormtroopers into falling into punji-spike layered pit traps to be gruesomely impaled; they also forced several soldiers down, removed their helmets, and then bashed their brains out with stone axes and knives made of volcanic rock (this was actually very briefly seein in the movie, although we don't actually see the bashing of their heads for obvious reasons), among other things. The same book also somewhat deconstructs the stance that the Ewoks won entirely due to primitive technology, as Tarn implies that the Ewoks also stole several blasters from any Stormtroopers they killed and used them against other Stormtroopers.

[SeanDMan]

You need to read this bit I read about how the Ewoks were really able to beat the empire. Using arrows that had a powerful neurotoxin, and generally the horrors the stormtroopers were dealing with. It was awesome. Ah, here it is.

Their methods are also given full detail in the 2012 anthology book The Essential Guide to Warfare, where a surviving Imperial Stormtrooper from the battle, Hume Tarn, recalls that they utilized arrows dipped with a neurotoxin powerful enough to paralyze every single muscle in the body including the lungs, leading to an exceptionally gruesome death especially if the wounds are relatively minor compared to being shot in the throat (according to Tarn, the ones shot in the throat were "the lucky ones."); they often lured other Stormtroopers into falling into punji-spike layered pit traps to be gruesomely impaled; they also forced several soldiers down, removed their helmets, and then bashed their brains out with stone axes and knives made of volcanic rock (this was actually very briefly seein in the movie, although we don't actually see the bashing of their heads for obvious reasons), among other things. The same book also somewhat deconstructs the stance that the Ewoks won entirely due to primitive technology, as Tarn implies that the Ewoks also stole several blasters from any Stormtroopers they killed and used them against other Stormtroopers.

anything that happens on forest moons is probably non-canon.

[Skummy]

Boba Fett, in the entire original trilogy, speaks 26 words, and isn't even referred to by name in the first movie he appears in, has no dialogue at all in Return Of The Jedi, and suffers the most humiliating death in the entire series. He has an inexplicable cult following, sure, but I think it's a stretch to call him the "most popular antagonist around". Nor are we actually given any evidence within the original trilogy that he's an especially powerful warrior - the only basis for him being anything more than one of countless bounty hunters comes from the expanded universe stuff, which shouldn't factor into discussions of the movies.

To me, it just screamed of George Lucas trying to appease the "hardcore" fans by giving a prominent role to an ersatz version of a character they liked (Jango rather than Boba), regardless of whether it helped the plot. Particularly as it was never once suggested in the original trilogy that Stormtroopers were clones - the only thing that even remotely suggests that is "little short for a Stormtrooper", but seeing as Luke and Han both managed to find Stormtrooper uniforms that fit, despite being different sizes, that would suggest otherwise. Not to mention that at least one Stormtrooper - Davin Felth - has a name.

Okay, so Greedo and Anakin weren't friends. But they knew each other as kids. And what does that add? What purpose does that serve? And there is actually unused dialogue to confirm that it is Greedo, not another member of his race. It just seems completely un-necessary. The moment that so many people remember about A New Hope is the Cantina scene - the revelation of the diversity of the universe, all these characters with different backgrounds, different stories, you could make a movie about any of them. There's a whole world of information in that one scene, and it makes you feel like you're only seeing a tiny part of the universe these movies exist in. That feeling dies when you start drawing arbitrary connections between characters for no good reason. It feels less like a rich, varied, textured universe, and more like a story out of the head of George Lucas. You can talk about me being old and bitter all you like, but this complaint is entirely founded in the new movies inability to inspire the same childlike wonder that the originals did - and I was 12 when I saw that movie, so still well within the target audience for that sort of thing. Hell, the Clone Wars cartoon can manage it better than Phantom Menace ever could.

I'm not complaining about R2 and 3PO appearing in the prequels - it's more the nature of it. C3PO could just as easily have been a protocol droid for the Senate - an idea just off the top of my head, but which makes perfect sense for his character - unlike him having been constructed by Anakin Skywalker, which is utterly cringeworthy.

It was established in A New Hope that Obi Wan owned R2-D2.

It wasn't. They established quite the opposite. Obi Wan Kenobi says he doesn't recall ever having owned a droid, and says that he doesn't know who R2 is, or where he came from. Now, there's an argument that he never owned Artoo - he owned R4whatever - but in the prequels, he calls R2D2 "friend". So apparently he just forgot the guy, then?

[Mick]

Okay, so Greedo and Anakin weren't friends. But they knew each other as kids. And what does that add? What purpose does that serve?

Deleted scene! That's the purpose, it was left on the cutting room floor.

Particularly as it was never once suggested in the original trilogy that Stormtroopers were clones - the only thing that even remotely suggests that is "little short for a Stormtrooper", but seeing as Luke and Han both managed to find Stormtrooper uniforms that fit, despite being different sizes, that would suggest otherwise. Not to mention that at least one Stormtrooper - Davin Felth - has a name.

Well, that's largely because you're confusing Clonetrooper with Stormtrooper. The Clonetroopers were pawns to get the Empire rolling, hence them not questioning Order 66 (Yes, a few did, but that's expanded universe). It's established that the Republic had no real army so to speak of, instead relying on ground forces as seen from what the Trade Federation brought to the table (Droids). It was likely more of a confederation, with each planet responsible for it's own defense.

And if I remember, when Palpatine does establish the Empire, pretty much everyone in the Senate is all for it. With that incredible rush of patriotism, it's likely you'd see enlistments, and given the MO of the Empire, it's also possible that conscription was in effect. The Stormtroopers were something entirely different then the Clonetroopers. They served the same nation, for lack of better of words, but that was it.

As for Luke being too short for a stormtrooper, well, he was a pilot, not a soldier. While it's a miracle in itself that Jek Porkins was able to get into a cockpit, in real life pilots are not tall people. Some people, in spite of having the passion of Rudy, simply can't become pilots because they're too tall. Soldiers on the other hand, especially considering the Stormtroopers, would need to be bigger.

Also, when it comes to canon, you pretty much need to completely ignore the expanded universe. Star Trek got around this by pretty much saying 'If it wasn't on screen, it did not happen'. It's because of continuity issues. George Lucas had a specific idea he wanted to go with, and as the creator of Star Wars, his vision overrides anything else that happened, including Davin Firth.

[OctoberRaven]

Boba Fett, in the entire original trilogy, speaks 26 words, and isn't even referred to by name in the first movie he appears in, has no dialogue at all in Return Of The Jedi, and suffers the most humiliating death in the entire series. He has an inexplicable cult following, sure, but I think it's a stretch to call him the "most popular antagonist around". Nor are we actually given any evidence within the original trilogy that he's an especially powerful warrior - the only basis for him being anything more than one of countless bounty hunters comes from the expanded universe stuff, which shouldn't factor into discussions of the movies.

Oh man, you would hate the way they wrote him out of the Scarlaac in the EU.

[Skummy]

I'm well aware of it. I've read expanded universe stuff, I used to have all the complete character guides, weaponry guides, all the rest of it. I just don't like it any more.

Deleted scene! That's the purpose, it was left on the cutting room floor.

The scene wasn't deleted, though, just the line confirming that it's actually Greedo. So maybe, without that line, we can assume it's just some other kid, fine.

As for Luke being too short for a stormtrooper, well, he was a pilot, not a soldier. While it's a miracle in itself that Jek Porkins was able to get into a cockpit, in real life pilots are not tall people. Some people, in spite of having the passion of Rudy, simply can't become pilots because they're too tall. Soldiers on the other hand, especially considering the Stormtroopers, would need to be bigger.

I never said I had a problem with Luke being too short for a Stormtrooper - just that it's the only line of dialogue that could possibly be construed as suggesting that the Stormtroopers were clones. But it's also a very odd line of dialogue, as he clearly found a Stormtrooper uniform that fit him perfectly.

And, fair enough, I wasn't aware of the apparent difference between Clonetroopers and Stormtroopers. Just figured they were supposed to be the same thing, as I don't recall it ever being stated otherwise.

[GhostMachine]

My problems with the prequels:

1. Jar Jar. Seriously, WTF?! He shouldn't have been in the trilogy at all, and just about everyone in the theater groaned when he showed up in Episode III. Only time I've ever seen a negative mutual reaction by a theater crowd.

2. The casting of Anakin. Forget who else said they had a problem with that, but....HI^5! You can sort of forgive Jake Lloyd in the first movie due to him being a kid, but Hayden Christensen was terrible.

3. Anakin/Vader comes off looking like a pussy/idiot in the end. The `NOOOOOOO!' thing shouldn't have been included in III, and the way he is corrupted/turned, how the hell did he not realize waaaay before the end of ROTJ, that he should have kicked the Emperor's ass?

4. The whole Clone Troopers thing. I think its pretty clear that by the time of the original trilogy, the clones were long exhausted. Not only because they don't sound alike, but also because they're about as effective as COBRA troops in the 80's G.I. Joe cartoon series. In other words...not very.

5. Darth Maul shouldn't have been killed off in Episode I. He should have been kept around and slain by Anakin after he became Darth Vader but before the fight with Obi-Wan that led to Vader being in the suit.

6. I really with Jango and Boba Fett hadn't been included, since that was more or less Lucas bowing to fan wank.

7. The Midechlorians thing. Fuck that. That shit needs to be edited out, and the master tape of the film with that scene in it fucking burned afterward.

Now, a few other things:

Ben lied to Luke about Vader killing his father, so why is him lying about having owned droids a problem?

When Mace Windu killed Jango, anyone else imagine him yelling "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE, MOTHERFUCKER!", or just me?

Oh, yeah, and one thing that doesn't make sense to me about the latest version of ROTJ (or at least the latest version I've seen): Why in the hell did they change Anakin's ghost to Hayden Christensen but leave Yoda and Obi-Wan alone? Doesn't make sense, even if its Lucas trying to say that Anakin really died when he became Vader in the first place.

Edited November 1, 2012 by GhostMachine

[Dingle]

Ben lied to Luke about Vader killing his father, so why is him lying about having owned droids a problem?

These are totally different things, and it's quite easy to see an explanation. Lying so Luke wouldn't be sad is not the same as denying knowledge of a droid.

[Mick]

Ben lied to Luke about Vader killing his father, so why is him lying about having owned droids a problem?

He didn't lie, he just sugar coated his way out of it. And Ben didn't lie about owning the droid. The only person that mentions Obi-Wan owning a droid is 3P0 as a proxy for R2. "He claims he is the property of an Obi-Wan Kenobi". Ben says "I don't seem to remember ever owning a droid.", and with the fact that he interacts with both droids in the prequels, and suddenly here's Luke's kid showing up with him, his simple "Very Interesting" makes him realize that shit's about to hit the fan again.

Anakin/Vader comes off looking like a pussy/idiot in the end. The `NOOOOOOO!' thing shouldn't have been included in III, and the way he is corrupted/turned, how the hell did he not realize waaaay before the end of ROTJ, that he should have kicked the Emperor's ass?

Let's have you unintentionally try to murder your wife, then be blatantly lied to by your new best friend about it. You wouldn't take it so well.

And I think he did realize it. In Empire, he's not all "Luke, turn to the Dark Side, it's cool!", it's more "Join me". Vader's smart enough to know he can't beat the Emperor, and Luke is the best shot at that.

In A New Hope, you notice Vader immediately decides to find Obi-Wan, no doubt payback for turning him into a freak. He doesn't think anything about Luke or Leia, and why should he? He thinks Padme died before the birth, and the child(ren) went down with the ship. In Empire, his only mission is to get Luke because he obviously knows that potential that is there, as well as the fact that the Emperor 1) Lied to him about Padme and 2) Is planning to replace him with Luke.

He didn't kick the Emperor's ass because he 1) Losing all your limbs tends to hamper mobility 2) It was a suit that was constantly on, and given that the Emperor went toe to toe with Yoda, Vader would know that the Emperor was way out of his league, and 3) Force Lightning would short circuit the suit, thus causing Vader to die of asphyxiation, assuming he was victorious. He can't take one for the team, considering Vader wanted to rule the Empire (and was planning to overthrow Palpatine in Episode III anyway, he tells this upfront to Padme).

Darth Maul shouldn't have been killed off in Episode I. He should have been kept around and slain by Anakin after he became Darth Vader but before the fight with Obi-Wan that led to Vader being in the suit.

But then Palpatine wouldn't need a new apprentice, would he? Maul was nothing more then a pawn, and he was replaced by someone far better suited to channel Anakin's fall, namely Dooku. Let's think about Maul escaping the fight intact. Obi-Wan would've had to fight him for a bit longer, allowing Qui-Gon to expire and not give his dying message that Anakin needed to be trained, and thus it would fuck everything up. Besides, defeating Maul means that Obi-Wan is now a Jedi Knight, and can train Anakin, even if it means saying "Fuck you I won't do what you tell me" to the Council.

The whole Clone Troopers thing. I think its pretty clear that by the time of the original trilogy, the clones were long exhausted. Not only because they don't sound alike, but also because they're about as effective as COBRA troops in the 80's G.I. Joe cartoon series. In other words...not very.

Say that to Echo Base. They were effective, but the only time they are really overwhelmed is in the Battle of Endor, where they're fighting a pissed off native population that happens to be small targets that blend in with the terrain. You notice the Stormtroopers didn't have any trouble at all taking the Tantive IV, and as far as the shit on the Death Star goes, they were feigning. Leia says "They let us go." They were giving the impression of trying to kill them. In Empire Strikes Back on Cloud City, everybody was taking cover, they had a damn good guide with Lando, and R2 was running interference.

[SeanDMan]

Godddamnit Mick the Ewoks are not canon please stop talking like they're canon.

[Mick]

But Caravan of Courage!

[Jimmy]

You can hate Jar Jar all you want, but he wasn't intended for you. He wasn't just comic relief, he was made for kids to love. And they succeeded. Nearly every kid came out of that movie and loved Jar Jar, everyone thought he was fun and awesome. I can understand why you didn't like him and all that, but they totally succeeded with their target audience.

[Matt]

Yeah I've never got the Jar Jar Binks hate, it was a nothing character aimed at little kids. I can understand not liking him, but the amount of people that actively hate the character is ridiculous; he didn't take anything away from the films at all.

[Skummy]

Oh, yeah, and one thing that doesn't make sense to me about the latest version of ROTJ (or at least the latest version I've seen): Why in the hell did they change Anakin's ghost to Hayden Christensen but leave Yoda and Obi-Wan alone? Doesn't make sense, even if its Lucas trying to say that Anakin really died when he became Vader in the first place.

This was just ret-conning - Anakin appeared, initially, as a middle-aged man. Which doesn't really make sense, as he never looked like that. So now that we have a better idea of what Anakin actually looked like, he pops up as the ghost, instead of the fairly universal reaction of "wait, who's that guy?" that the scene illicited in the first place, even if just for a second.

It wouldn't make sense for Obi-Wan to appear as ghost Ewan McGregor, as that's not how he looked when he died, nor would Luke recognise him.

That's one edit that I don't have a problem with, in theory, though I feel bad for the guy who played Anakin's ghost, and the guy who originally did the voice of Boba Fett, for being written out of the whole thing. Must suck.

Yeah I've never got the Jar Jar Binks hate, it was a nothing character aimed at little kids. I can understand not liking him, but the amount of people that actively hate the character is ridiculous: he didn't take anything away from the films at all.

No. He really, really does take away from Phantom Menace. So, so much. I don't know a single kid who liked Jar Jar - not when it came out, or any of my cousins, nieces, nephews and so on who've seen it since.