MMA News and Discussion Thread

[DeeJam]

Sure, UFC is a business and about money, but it is also a sport. This has always been a sport, from day 1. Right now Dana is doing with Lesnar what he snarled at Elite doing with Slice.

There's no comparison with what Elite is doing with Slice and what White is doing with Lesnar. Slice has fought nothing but bums so far. Lesnar lost to a former World Champion and just beat a highly regarded heavyweight.

[IAceI]

The difference being that Lesnar is a legitimate fighter with talent, as opposed to Kimbo who is a sideshow attraction with little ability outside of being able to stand up and punch someone hard. Kimbo's having his opponents hand picked to keep his draw going as a monster, Lesnar has been thrown in against top opposition and when he lost and Dana claimed that maybe he should go somewhere else and gain some experience, he said he wanted to say and fight the best.

The added bonus is that on top of his talent, Lesnar is a massive draw. A match with Couture not only provides a lot of money, it still provides a match where you can't actually say who the winner will be. Personally, I think Lesnar has what it takes to take it to and defeat Couture, but I know there are people out there who think Couture will win.

I think it's a different situation to Slice, just because of Lesnars immense talent. And the heavyweight division in the UFC isn't massively stacked, so to get a big name draw in there and in the title mix will help massively.

[KCC]

I don't like it. I can't stand it. Lesnar has fought 2 fights in the UFC, losing one. Sure, he's talented/has potential and he's coming off a victory, but in no way should be in a title fight already. It's degrading to the other fighters in better situations.

Why? And just what other fighters deserve title shots in the Heavyweight division? And if they do, would they be marketable?

It's all about MONEY. UFC is a BUSINESS.

No shit, no need to say it like you're talking to a moron.

Sure, UFC is a business and about money, but it is also a sport. This has always been a sport, from day 1. Right now Dana is doing with Lesnar what he snarled at Elite doing with Slice.

I apologize if I offended you, but from your original post, it seemed as if you didn't understand how MMA promotions make money.

If you have a fight like this in the making you need to sacrifice some of the 'pure sports' aspects. For example, Fabrico Werdum vs. Couture would perhaps be more legitimate from a sporting sense, but from a business and interest level is far, far, far, far beneath Lesnar vs. Couture. Therefore, anyone who would run Werdum vs. Couture, when the Lesnar fight is RIGHT THERE, is an idiot. Especially considering Randy's age.

And, as everyone else has pointed out, Brock is far more legit than Kimbo Slice. Brock has actually competed with serious competition. Kimbo has yet to really fight anyone who, on paper, would pose him a serious threat (though Thompson almost had him beat).

Just look at the IFL. MMA fights, by themselves, don't sell. If they did, they wouldn't need countdown shows and charismatic fighters.

[Gabriel]

Lesnar is leap frogging Fabricio Werdum, who after Frank Mir, should have been the number one contender. Werdum is fighting some can at the England show instead.

I understand the marketing behind the idea. Lesnar Vs Couture will draw... no doubt... but it would still draw in 6-12 months after Randy's had a couple of fights, and Werdum has gotten his shot. Couture Vs anybody would draw right now. The return of Randy Couture is a bigger story than the fight, which is why I personally don't fully understand the decision to rush Brock into a title fight.

Either way, this is twice now where a deserving contender has been leapfrogged in favor of a UFC staff favorite. Lyoto Machida should be getting the next shot at the 205 pound belt, but if Chuck wins this weekend, it's almost guaranteed he'll get it. Anderson Silva also mentioned that when discussing his jump to 205... that he didn't want a title shot, and that his friend Machida was the rightful number one contender. Instead, a UFC favorite is being positioned for that shot.

It's a dangerous tightrope walk, because they could end up pissing off a lot of the top fighters. The Heavyweight division is thin enough as it is... do they really want to put Werdum in a position where he'd feel like he would be given the fights he deserves (rightfully) in another organization?

I'm not 100% against this Brock/Randy fight. I'm excited to see it, and I'm looking forward to it... but anyone who says Brock deserves the shot more than Werdum is buying into the hype way too much.

[Gene Kiniski]

I don't like it. I can't stand it. Lesnar has fought 2 fights in the UFC, losing one. Sure, he's talented/has potential and he's coming off a victory, but in no way should be in a title fight already. It's degrading to the other fighters in better situations.

Why? And just what other fighters deserve title shots in the Heavyweight division? And if they do, would they be marketable?

It's all about MONEY. UFC is a BUSINESS.

No shit, no need to say it like you're talking to a moron.

Sure, UFC is a business and about money, but it is also a sport. This has always been a sport, from day 1. Right now Dana is doing with Lesnar what he snarled at Elite doing with Slice.

I apologize if I offended you, but from your original post, it seemed as if you didn't understand how MMA promotions make money.

If you have a fight like this in the making you need to sacrifice some of the 'pure sports' aspects. For example, Fabrico Werdum vs. Couture would perhaps be more legitimate from a sporting sense, but from a business and interest level is far, far, far, far beneath Lesnar vs. Couture. Therefore, anyone who would run Werdum vs. Couture, when the Lesnar fight is RIGHT THERE, is an idiot. Especially considering Randy's age.

And, as everyone else has pointed out, Brock is far more legit than Kimbo Slice. Brock has actually competed with serious competition. Kimbo has yet to really fight anyone who, on paper, would pose him a serious threat (though Thompson almost had him beat).

Just look at the IFL. MMA fights, by themselves, don't sell. If they did, they wouldn't need countdown shows and charismatic fighters.

It's all good, man. Just a forum. I completely understand how they make their money though, after all I am training to do this for a living.

Lesnar is leap frogging Fabricio Werdum, who after Frank Mir, should have been the number one contender. Werdum is fighting some can at the England show instead.

I understand the marketing behind the idea. Lesnar Vs Couture will draw... no doubt... but it would still draw in 6-12 months after Randy's had a couple of fights, and Werdum has gotten his shot. Couture Vs anybody would draw right now. The return of Randy Couture is a bigger story than the fight, which is why I personally don't fully understand the decision to rush Brock into a title fight.

Either way, this is twice now where a deserving contender has been leapfrogged in favor of a UFC staff favorite. Lyoto Machida should be getting the next shot at the 205 pound belt, but if Chuck wins this weekend, it's almost guaranteed he'll get it. Anderson Silva also mentioned that when discussing his jump to 205... that he didn't want a title shot, and that his friend Machida was the rightful number one contender. Instead, a UFC favorite is being positioned for that shot.

It's a dangerous tightrope walk, because they could end up pissing off a lot of the top fighters. The Heavyweight division is thin enough as it is... do they really want to put Werdum in a position where he'd feel like he would be given the fights he deserves (rightfully) in another organization?

I'm not 100% against this Brock/Randy fight. I'm excited to see it, and I'm looking forward to it... but anyone who says Brock deserves the shot more than Werdum is buying into the hype way too much.

Gabby That's what I was getting at, you just said it in a more elaborate and detailed way. Thank you.

[crazedfan]

Plus, didn't Nog get a title shot after a decision victory Herring? Why can't Lesnar get one too?

Because Nogueira didn't need 3 or 4 victories in UFC to get a title shot due to his past history of work. He got his one win that he needed to familiarize the fans with him, and got the title shot.

[tristy]

From what I've gathered, no one has said Lesnar is the #1 contender.

I'm excited about that fight, and I'll probably end up ordering my first ever UFC PPV because of that fight, but personally I'm more interested in Slice/Shamrock. I don't know why, but I am.

[DeeJam]

Plus, didn't Nog get a title shot after a decision victory Herring? Why can't Lesnar get one too?

Because Nogueira didn't need 3 or 4 victories in UFC to get a title shot due to his past history of work. He got his one win that he needed to familiarize the fans with him, and got the title shot.

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't think someone deserves a title shot after only one match in an organization. They should do what Cro Cop did and fight a couple of times first. No way does Brock deserve a title, but it Nog gets one after beating Herring, than there's no reason why Brock shouldn't get one either.

[Guest Mr. Potato Head]

Ultimately, Brock probably doesn't deserve a title shot from a competitive standpoint.

But nobody's paying attention to Brock getting a title shot. People just want to see Randy kick the shit out of him (or vice-versa). And if that's the match you have to book from a business standpoint (which it pretty much is), you can't really make it non-title.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Mr. Potato Head

[crazedfan]

Plus, didn't Nog get a title shot after a decision victory Herring? Why can't Lesnar get one too?

Because Nogueira didn't need 3 or 4 victories in UFC to get a title shot due to his past history of work. He got his one win that he needed to familiarize the fans with him, and got the title shot.

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I don't think someone deserves a title shot after only one match in an organization. They should do what Cro Cop did and fight a couple of times first. No way does Brock deserve a title, but it Nog gets one after beating Herring, than there's no reason why Brock shouldn't get one either.

Fair enough, but comparing Nogueira to Lesnar simply because they both beat a common opponent is pushing it a bit, in my opinion. And I know you're not comparing them directly in terms of talent or skill, but Nogueira has obviously accomplished a lot more than Lesnar had. But back to the subject, Anderson Silva and Quinton Jackson?

[Gabriel]

I personally have no problem with a fighter getting a title shot immediately after signing, or after just one win, if they have a history of dominance in the sport, like Rampage and Silva have. They were considered top fighters in their weight classes before they even got to the UFC.

Brock Lesnar had no MMA history really coming into the UFC, except defeating some can at Dynamite USA.

The problem I have with Brock all around, in all of his endeavors, is that he's never been forced to earn anything... and when he has, he's quit.

His main event run in WWE was handed to him, and when it started to waver and needed him to really work at keeping his spot, he quit.

He thought he could just walk onto an NFL team, and when they told him he'd have to work to get that spot, he quit.

He wins a couple of fights where the majority of the fans didn't think he was in any trouble... and he gets a title shot because it will sell. What happens if he loses this? What happens if the Heavyweight division gets some life in it and the competitiveness of it goes up? What happens when they tell him that he has to earn another shot? Is he going to quit again?

It's a sport... I have absolutely no problem with signing fights to sell tickets... but it shouldn't come at the expense of the competition. You don't hand things to people in the world of sports, because more often than not, it comes back to bite you in the ass... whether it's creating egos, or just pissing off the guys who are busting their asses for shots that are being handed to guys less deserving.

Lesnar Vs Couture will sell... but Randy Couture would probably have sold just as much against anyone else, being that it's his big return. I'm excited to see it, but I would have felt a lot better about Couture/Werdum, Lesnar/Kongo and Mir/Big Nog being the prime Heavyweight fights to end 2008.

Either way, Rodrigo is going to submit the winner of Lesnar/Couture... so I guess we'll see what happens with Brock... if they make him earn it, or if they give him another shot after a win against a guy nobody thinks will beat him anyways.

Just to point out, I love Heath Herring. I picked him to win... but hardly anybody else did. He wasn't a can by any means, but the ratio of people picking Lesnar to him for the fight was ridiculous.

[tristy]

has anyone thought about the possibility that maybe Randy himself was asked to pick his opponent for his return fight?

[Gabriel]

has anyone thought about the possibility that maybe Randy himself was asked to pick his opponent for his return fight?

Randy Couture holds no cards in this situation. Dana White and the UFC have all the power here. If they wanted him to fight Godzilla, he'd say "Yes, sir" and do it with a smile on his face. Randy lost his battle with the UFC... the only opponent he'll be picking is Fedor, if Dana can ever swing a deal that satisfies both egos in that battle. (White's and Fedor's, I mean)

[Maxx]

The way I see it, Nog is the actual heavyweight champ. While yes, Randy never lost, had he never came back, Nog would still have his belt. So Mir/Nog is the real Heayweight Title fight, whereas Couture/Lesnar is the money match, winner becoming #1 contender. Right now, Brock doesn't deserve at title shot, UFC knows that and gave him Couture, because there's no way you can say he doesn't deserve at title shot if he takes out Randy.

[Gabriel]

The way I see it, Nog is the actual heavyweight champ. While yes, Randy never lost, had he never came back, Nog would still have his belt. So Mir/Nog is the real Heayweight Title fight, whereas Couture/Lesnar is the money match, winner becoming #1 contender. Right now, Brock doesn't deserve at title shot, UFC knows that and gave him Couture, because there's no way you can say he doesn't deserve at title shot if he takes out Randy.

Nog is still the champ though.

Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira is the UFC Interim Heavyweight Champion.

Randy Couture is the "real" UFC Heavyweight Champion.

Randy's first fight back should have been a unification fight, but because Mir/Nog was already scheduled, they booked him to face Lesnar. Both fights are for belts, and the winners will unify in February (I've been told). Might be later, depending on how the winner's are physically after their fights.

[Maxx]

I'm fully aware of the what the actual situation is.

What I'm saying is that Brock/Randy is basically a #1 contender's match. Although now Mir/Nog basically is as well. Lesnar isn't getting a title shot so much as he'd be winning a #1 contender's spot, being that he'll have fight in a unification fight. My point was Brock is facing Randy because thats the only guy in the UFC he can beat and become immediately legit. Yeah if he beats him he'll be UFC Heavyweight Champ, but he'd still have another fight before being undisputed. If Brock Lesnar beats Couture and then whoever comes out of Nogueria/Mir, he definately deserves to be Undisputed UFC Heayweight Champion. While he might not deserve the shot now, UFC set it up for him to earn his status through two fights.

[Gabriel]

There's no doubt...if he comes out of the whole situation as the champ, he's earned it.

He hasn't though, earned the right to be put in that situation... is the point I'm trying to make.

[Maxx]

Well Brock is basically the dark horse. He's not expected to come out of the situation as Undisputed Champ, but if he does he'll have earned it. They've got 3 guys in Couture/Mir/Nog who all already deserve as shot at being the Undisputed Champ and they decided to mix Brock in for money reasons. There's no guarentee how long Randy will be around and the Fedor fight may never come. Its the perfect time to run Lesnar/Couture. Brock is coming off a dominating performance, Randy needs a big comeback fight. If Lesnar wins, he's still got another fight to win before he's considered the top guy.

Its a much better situation than if they just had Randy face the winner of Mir/Nogueria, then Lensar fight whoever wins that. Yeah Werdum probably deserves it more, but he won't draw in nearly as much money.

[IDOL]

I personally have no problem with a fighter getting a title shot immediately after signing, or after just one win, if they have a history of dominance in the sport, like Rampage and Silva have. They were considered top fighters in their weight classes before they even got to the UFC.

Brock Lesnar had no MMA history really coming into the UFC, except defeating some can at Dynamite USA.

The problem I have with Brock all around, in all of his endeavors, is that he's never been forced to earn anything... and when he has, he's quit.

His main event run in WWE was handed to him, and when it started to waver and needed him to really work at keeping his spot, he quit.

He thought he could just walk onto an NFL team, and when they told him he'd have to work to get that spot, he quit.

He wins a couple of fights where the majority of the fans didn't think he was in any trouble... and he gets a title shot because it will sell. What happens if he loses this? What happens if the Heavyweight division gets some life in it and the competitiveness of it goes up? What happens when they tell him that he has to earn another shot? Is he going to quit again?

It's a sport... I have absolutely no problem with signing fights to sell tickets... but it shouldn't come at the expense of the competition. You don't hand things to people in the world of sports, because more often than not, it comes back to bite you in the ass... whether it's creating egos, or just pissing off the guys who are busting their asses for shots that are being handed to guys less deserving.

Lesnar Vs Couture will sell... but Randy Couture would probably have sold just as much against anyone else, being that it's his big return. I'm excited to see it, but I would have felt a lot better about Couture/Werdum, Lesnar/Kongo and Mir/Big Nog being the prime Heavyweight fights to end 2008.

Either way, Rodrigo is going to submit the winner of Lesnar/Couture... so I guess we'll see what happens with Brock... if they make him earn it, or if they give him another shot after a win against a guy nobody thinks will beat him anyways.

Just to point out, I love Heath Herring. I picked him to win... but hardly anybody else did. He wasn't a can by any means, but the ratio of people picking Lesnar to him for the fight was ridiculous.

Um, why? Brock is as explosive as a heavyweight that anyone has ever seen, and has a LEGIT as hell background in NCAA wrestling. He can also unleash a punch that seems capable of cleanly knocking someone's head off. He EASILY takes his opponents down, and smothers them with heavy blows. That was seen in both fights before he got to Herring. Sure the MMA enthusiasts pegged Herring to win because of his fighting experience, but the fact is that the 'unknown' factor of what Brock could do certainly pulled a lot of people in his favor. My local Buffalo Wild Wings airs the ppvs for free, and man is that place down right loaded with UFC fans. And you know what the funny thing was? 80% of them were pulling for Lesnar, and by the last round it was 95%.

Well Brock is basically the dark horse. He's not expected to come out of the situation as Undisputed Champ, but if he does he'll have earned it. They've got 3 guys in Couture/Mir/Nog who all already deserve as shot at being the Undisputed Champ and they decided to mix Brock in for money reasons. There's no guarentee how long Randy will be around and the Fedor fight may never come. Its the perfect time to run Lesnar/Couture. Brock is coming off a dominating performance, Randy needs a big comeback fight. If Lesnar wins, he's still got another fight to win before he's considered the top guy.

Its a much better situation than if they just had Randy face the winner of Mir/Nogueria, then Lensar fight whoever wins that. Yeah Werdum probably deserves it more, but he won't draw in nearly as much money.

Nailed it, well said.

Edited September 5, 2008 by IDOL

[IAceI]

Lesnar is an absolute machine. If he loses to Couture he will go back and build his way up to the top, but he's such an anomaly putting him against other opponents may be just wasting time with him when he's clearly an extremely dangerous and talented individual. I mean, he lost to Mir pretty sharply but we all saw first hand what he was capable of - he was hammering Mir and got caught out. That's a combination of lack of experience and just the way MMA goes. But his performance against Herring shows he's been working hard and executed a game plan. It was a very clever move for him to start with a running knee, because Herring was expecting the take down and it was just a smart move, you can watch Brock and see that he's got a clear mind on what he wants to achieve.

Plus having seen him do some training there is no doubt in my mind that he is here for the long run. He wants to prove himself as legitimately one of the best fighters in the world, and should he get knocked down I think he'll get up, dust himself off and go and train even harder. He's putting in the effort in training and his size and speed make him such a destructive figure, and obviously he's marketable - which is what UFC needs. People want to see the big names fight, especially the casual fans - I mean look at how many people still enjoyed watching Tito fight, despite his declining ability. A clued up fan would have known Machida was going to pound him, but I know a few people who like UFC and just assumed Ortiz would win because he's a name.

So I have no problems seeing Lesnar get a fight with Couture. I could sit and watch Lesnar match after Lesnar match I think because he is such a presence. Considering he steps into the octagon at around 285lbs, the speed he has is absolutely phenomenal. And I really do think that if he was to take on Couture that he could beat him, I'm all for technical submissions, and I'm all for strong hearts and never say die attitudes - but I think there's something there when Lesnar fights, because he's just so big and strong.

One day Lesnar could very well be a name synonymous with UFC. Due to his potential, his physique and his marketability and I think that UFC need to push him right no while MMA is receiving the best coverage its had and while Couture is around and ready to fight.