House of the Dragon (Game of Thrones) Thread

[Arjen Robben]

57 minutes ago, damsher hatfield said:

 

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It's not a plot hole as much as much as it's just an example of them trusting their audience to some of the work for them.

 

This is a total cop out for me. You can't just skip over points of the story and just assume the audience are going to do the work for you because you put yourself in a corner and instead of figuring out the logical way out of it, decided "ah screw it, the audience will fill in the gaps we couldn't think of". It's just weak writing.

If I write a story where a man is being attacked by a great white shark and then just cut away to a few weeks later where he's alive and perfectly okay you couldn't just say "ah he let the audience do the work" in figuring out how he got away. Don't write yourself in to a corner if you don't have the ability to work your way out of it, and if you can't, find a new way of doing it. The Breaking Bad writers basically did this right all the time. I've heard Vince Gilligan talk many times about putting themselves in that position and then working their way out of it, but the difference is that they actually did it, and didn't just go "ah skip ahead a few weeks, let them figure it out."

About ten minutes prior they'd just been lining up executing defeated, surrendered soldiers on their knees one by one on Daenerys orders to just kill anyone associated with Cersei, and even threatened Jon en masse instantly when he dared to try and stop Grey Worm from executing them. Then she gave a basically a war speech, showing no remorse, further entrenched in her stance. And now we're supposed to "do the work" for the writers in getting around why they'd find out he just murdered her and just not kill him on the spot? It's not like it's a case where it's like asking for the audience to have their hand held and carefully walked through a complicated plot point, it's that they just didn't even write the plot point in the first place.

[Lint]

4 minutes ago, Arjen Robben said:

This is a total cop out for me. You can't just skip over points of the story and just assume the audience are going to do the work for you because you put yourself in a corner and instead of figuring out the logical way out of it, decided "ah screw it, the audience will fill in the gaps we couldn't think of". It's just weak writing.

If I write a story where a man is being attacked by a great white shark and then just cut away to a few weeks later where he's alive and perfectly okay you couldn't just say "ah he let the audience do the work" in figuring out how he got away. Don't write yourself in to a corner if you don't have the ability to work your way out of it, and if you can't, find a new way of doing it. The Breaking Bad writers basically did this right all the time. I've heard Vince Gilligan talk many times about putting themselves in that position and then working their way out of it, but the difference is that they actually did it, and didn't just go "ah skip ahead a few weeks, let them figure it out."

About ten minutes prior they'd just been lining up executing surrendered soldiers on their knees one by one on Daenerys orders, and even threatened Jon en masse instantly when he dared to try and stop Grey Worm from executing them. Then she gave a basically a war speech, showing no remorse, further entrenched in her stance. And now we're supposed to "do the work" for the writers in getting around why they'd find out he just murdered her and just not kill him on the spot? It's not like it's a case where it's like asking for the audience to have their hand held and carefully walked through a complicated plot point, it's that they just didn't even write the plot point in the first place.

[Bobfoc]

2 hours ago, GhostMachine said:

I thought it was a decent ending, but had a few flaws:

 

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First of all, Jon's fate. Why is there really even a need for a Night's Watch anymore? True, there are some threats still down below the Wall (or what's left of it), but those threats aren't nearly as bad as the White Walkers, and the Wildlings are now allies, not enemies. Plus, why the need for the no wife and kids vow to still be in place? On top of that, why do it to prevent a war with the Unsullied? The Unsullied are more or less assholes for doing whatever Dany wanted, including cold blooded murderer. Hopefully, as someone already brought up, those disease-carrying butterflies are still in Naath and wipe the Unsullied out, or at least whittle them down to a negligable force. Then they can say fuck them and brinh Jon back....if he wants to come back.

Plus, its not really a punishment. Jon seemed at home there before, and is friends with the Wildlings. 

The Unsullied taking Jon prisoner for killing Dany didn't make sense. Considering the nasty things they did in the past, they should have outright killed him. And refusing to hand over Jon would have been good enough reason to declare war. Greyworm essentially forcing them to pick a new king was stupid. 

I get Tyrion's punishment of being Bran's hand, because Tyrion is smarter and wiser than he gives himself credit for. He might think bad of himself for siding with Dany,  but actions he took before even meeting her, as well as actions after, saved a lot of lives. If not for his lack of self-confidence, he'd probably make a great king.

What I did like:

 

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Smiled big and actually clapped when Jon killed Dany.

Brienne finishing Jamie's entry in the book, and seeing that history treats him kinder than it should. Jamie did regret that he didn't have a lot of deeds recorded, other than killing the king. But lets not forget that if he hadn't been treated badly for kiling the king and had properly been credited with saving the entire kingdom, he might not have become such a foul wretch. 

The dragon melting the throne and them deciding that future kings will be chosen rather than it being an inheritance. They won't really need a throne until Bran's successor is chosen, and the Iron Throne could been considered cursed. Good riddance.

The make-up of the Small Council. Though it would be interesting to see who fills the open positions.

Arya going off on her own to become an explorer.

And if Peter Dinklage doesn't win an award or at least receive a nomination for this season, someone called the Bullshit Police asap. Best actor on the show, and he really killed it the last few episodes.

 

 

 

Spoiler

With the Unsullied, even if they don't get killed by disease, they'd surely die out eventually anyway because they can't reproduce. Unless someone creates their own army of castrated slaves, their threat isn't one that's going to grow.

One thing I had to wonder about was the Dothraki. We saw them seemingly get wiped out by the army of the dead, and it was even said in the "Behind the Episode" thing that that was effectively the end of them. We then see loads of them in the next episode, and then they're apparently a complete non-factor again once the episode ends. They were just as loyal to Dany as the Unsullied were, and there were evidently a lot of them in the city, so what happened to them?

 

[Benjamin]

1 hour ago, Bobfoc said:

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With the Unsullied, even if they don't get killed by disease, they'd surely die out eventually anyway because they can't reproduce. Unless someone creates their own army of castrated slaves, their threat isn't one that's going to grow.

One thing I had to wonder about was the Dothraki. We saw them seemingly get wiped out by the army of the dead, and it was even said in the "Behind the Episode" thing that that was effectively the end of them. We then see loads of them in the next episode, and then they're apparently a complete non-factor again once the episode ends. They were just as loyal to Dany as the Unsullied were, and there were evidently a lot of them in the city, so what happened to them?

 

Spoiler

 

Ghost saved them all, because he was a big wolf who ran headlong into an army of 100,000 dead people wanting to tear him apart and instead of trying to kill them, decided to save them all. 

No other explanation for why any of them are alive. 

 

 

[MalaCloudy Black]

Didn't hate it. Didn't love it. It was OK. I think my previous statement about the show stands.

[Jimmy]

It's not even necessarily the things that happened this season, it's just how they were done. The was so little nuance, subtext or subversion, it was just a race to tick off plot points and create moments and none of it had time to breathe. The actual writing, some of the dialogue, was bad and you can see reliably brilliant actors (Peter Dinklage, for one) struggling with the shit he's been given. 

Where it lost me, I guess...

 

to go back to the Night King - and how underwhelmed I was with that episode - if they were going to keep all the characters alive, I thought it would be for me than

this. Like, really, no one big died in a battle they'd been hyping for eight years, clearly in hope of keeping them alive for the emotional stuff. Sure, I can go with that - but then so little of the emotional stuff landed, which consequently makes my feelings towards the Night King episode even more underwhelming.

That said, I still loved the first two eps, the slow build before the big fight - all these characters finally meeting each other after seasons. I loved it. Actually

 

I almost wish they had gone for the full-blown horror of that battle and killed off more characters, so we'd be left more time with the few survivors we had.

For what it's worth, I even loved Season 7, I didn't mind it being streamlined because it felt like it was building towards something. I don't really care what it was building towards - I was so on board for the ride - but the execution of what they decided felt so sloppy and inconsistent with what came before. 

[Adam]

7 hours ago, GhostMachine said:

I thought it was a decent ending, but had a few flaws:

 

  Hide contents

First of all, Jon's fate. Why is there really even a need for a Night's Watch anymore? True, there are some threats still down below the Wall (or what's left of it), but those threats aren't nearly as bad as the White Walkers, and the Wildlings are now allies, not enemies. Plus, why the need for the no wife and kids vow to still be in place? On top of that, why do it to prevent a war with the Unsullied? The Unsullied are more or less assholes for doing whatever Dany wanted, including cold blooded murderer. Hopefully, as someone already brought up, those disease-carrying butterflies are still in Naath and wipe the Unsullied out, or at least whittle them down to a negligable force. Then they can say fuck them and brinh Jon back....if he wants to come back.

Plus, its not really a punishment. Jon seemed at home there before, and is friends with the Wildlings. 

The Unsullied taking Jon prisoner for killing Dany didn't make sense. Considering the nasty things they did in the past, they should have outright killed him. And refusing to hand over Jon would have been good enough reason to declare war. Greyworm essentially forcing them to pick a new king was stupid. 

I get Tyrion's punishment of being Bran's hand, because Tyrion is smarter and wiser than he gives himself credit for. He might think bad of himself for siding with Dany,  but actions he took before even meeting her, as well as actions after, saved a lot of lives. If not for his lack of self-confidence, he'd probably make a great king.

What I did like:

 

  Hide contents

Smiled big and actually clapped when Jon killed Dany.

Brienne finishing Jamie's entry in the book, and seeing that history treats him kinder than it should. Jamie did regret that he didn't have a lot of deeds recorded, other than killing the king. But lets not forget that if he hadn't been treated badly for kiling the king and had properly been credited with saving the entire kingdom, he might not have become such a foul wretch. 

The dragon melting the throne and them deciding that future kings will be chosen rather than it being an inheritance. They won't really need a throne until Bran's successor is chosen, and the Iron Throne could been considered cursed. Good riddance.

The make-up of the Small Council. Though it would be interesting to see who fills the open positions.

Arya going off on her own to become an explorer.

And if Peter Dinklage doesn't win an award or at least receive a nomination for this season, someone called the Bullshit Police asap. Best actor on the show, and he really killed it the last few episodes.

 

 

 

Spoiler

Jon's fate:

There is no Night's Watch. Bran did that to demonstrate a punishment to the Unsullied who wanted him executed, but in reality he's sent him off to where he wants to be, free in the North with the wildlings. There isn't a Night's Watch anymore, Tormund just took his people back to the Wall in Episode 4 and now Jon has joined them. It would be unenforceable anyway with the North as an independent Queendom under Jon's own House.

In the end, Jon and his sisters got the "happy ending", they're all where they want to be.

 

[Arjen Robben]

I'd love to know how the Night's Watch being a top drawer punishment for Jon was sold to Grey Worm. "Nights Watch? Oh yeah, shit as fuck, really awful, big wall, cold, definitely not a place he feels most at home with a load of his mates. Hates it there. I tell ya, just the other day he was saying "Bloody hell Bran, I hated that" so... yeah... very severe punishment. We good?"

[Daniel Bryan]

15 minutes ago, Arjen Robben said:

I'd love to know how the Night's Watch being a top drawer punishment for Jon was sold to Grey Worm. 

It's been the traditional alternative punishment to people facing the death penalty for hundreds of years in Westeros and Grey Worm doesn't know Jon and has no reason to imagine he'd like it?

[Arjen Robben]

Gotta let you in on a little behind the scenes secret here, but it wasn't a serious question. I'd have thought the bit you deleted would have given that away really but I guess the humour was more subtle than I thought.

[Daniel Bryan]

I know, it was just a bit forced.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Daniel Bryan

[Arjen Robben]

Sorry Roger Ebert

[Jimmy]

this is fun

[Arjen Robben]

[SeanDMan]

God, the tension. You guys should just fuck already.

[Ruki]

https://m.ca.ign.com/articles/2019/05/21/george-r-r-martin-on-game-of-thrones-bookshow-ending-differences?sf103002207=1

 

GRRM saying the ending is gonna be the same, just different in some places.

[SeanDMan]

That's if he even finishes at this point.

[Arjen Robben]

I kinda want to read the books but I really just cannot be arsed reading something that doesn’t have a conclusion and may never have.

Are 1-5 good to the point they’re still worth reading now even knowing you’re gonna hit that wall?

[Bobfoc]

If you're not desperate and have those specific concerns, I don't think it's worth bothering. I like all the other plot threads in the books and like how much more detailed the world is, but I wouldn't say I'm wonderfully keen on Martin's writing style. In the quest for relatability, there's a fair bit of "And then Sam pissed himself" and "Dany then had really bad diarrhoea".

[Gazz]

Do you like exhaustive descriptions of food and clothes?

Then do I have the fantasy saga for you...